Let's Face It: Someone Besides Nadal Already Betterer Than Djokovic and Federer at Roland Garros

Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
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We can dispense with the raw statistics which are a landslide for Thiem. Record by year turned age (which makes Djokovic a bit older than Federer and Thiem the youngerer with birthday nearly one month after Fed.)
In the year of their 23rd Birthday:
Djokovic QF, Federe 3R, Thiem SF ----> Federe and Djoko lose
24th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe SF, Thiem SF ----> Tie
25th birthday year:
Djokovic F, Federe F, Thiem F ----> Tie
26th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe F, Thiem F -----> Djoko loses

Thiem did better or no worse for these early prime years of career (2016 was not even prime for Thiem). Federer is the closest as it can be argued that both he and Thiem would have won three straight RGs without Nadal in the draw. Please no discussion of worthless Masters titles on clay, etc. or we end up bringing in Zverev and possibly Tsitsipas before too long.;) For the record Thiem was severly impacted by weather in 2016 and 2019 with many days back to back on court.

If we go to points won at RG we have:
Federe in 2005 at healthy 55.3%, 54.5% in 2006, and 53.9% in 2007, 54.57%
Djoko in 2011 at 55.5%, 55.0% for 2012, and 54.1% in 2013, average 54.87%
Thiem in 2017 at 56.3%, 54.7% (Thiem fractured ankle disrupts clay season), 52.9% (win against peak Djokovic Dulled the stats a bit, plus some rust entering RG due to Rome Fiasco) - average 54.63%

Djoko had the ignominy of losing to Federe in 2011, otherwise they all went down to Nadal. In case someone wants to cry fowl on Nadal those years we have:
Nadal 2005-2007 - 56.3% points won at RG
Nadal 2011-2013 - 56.6% points won at RG
Nadal 2017-2019 - 59.4%o_O points won at RG
@Poisoned Slice @MichaelNadal approved
 
Last edited:
King No1e said:
Thieminator is a clay beast and there's no denying it.
Suck it, Fedovic fans.
Click to expand...
If we go to games won percentage for Federer we have:
2005 60.5%, 2006 60.3%, 2007 58.3%, (2008 57.4%, 2009 57.9%)
Djoko:
2011 60.9%, 2012 59.5%, 2013 58.0%, (2014 60.8%, 2015 60.9%, 2016 64.9%o_O)
Thiem:
2017 63.2%, 2018 60.1%, and 2019 unknown since Ultimate Tennis does not have RG stats up:eek:
 
He’s definitely the second best clay courter in the world. Personally considered Djokovic tied with him behind Nadal before this years edition but their SF, while close, made it clear Thiem is a better clay court player. I still think Novak would’ve done better in the final against Nadal than Thiem did, though.

Only up for Dom at the French!
 
did Thiem had to face Nadal in semis like Djok/Fed always had to? there goes your relative comparison.

By your logic guga should be a better clay courter than Fed and Djoko. did I get it right?
 
Meles said:
giphy.gif

We can dispense with the raw statistics which are a landslide for Thiem. Record by year turned age (which makes Djokovic a bit older than Federer and Thiem the youngerer with birthday nearly one month after Fed.)
In the year of their 23rd Birthday:
Djokovic QF, Federe 3R, Thiem SF ----> Federe and Djoko lose
24th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe SF, Thiem SF ----> Tie
25th birthday year:
Djokovic F, Federe F, Thiem F ----> Tie
26th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe F, Thiem F -----> Djoko loses

Thiem did better or no worse for these early prime years of career (2016 was not even prime for Thiem). Federer is the closest as it can be argued that both he and Thiem would have won three straight RGs without Nadal in the draw. Please no discussion of worthless Masters titles on clay, etc. or we end up bringing in Zverev and possibly Tsitsipas before too long.;) For the record Thiem was severly impacted by weather in 2016 and 2019 with many days back to back on court.

If we go to points won at RG we have:
Federe in 2005 at healthy 55.3%, 54.5% in 2006, and 53.9% in 2007, 54.57%
Djoko in 2011 at 55.5%, 55.0% for 2012, and 54.1% in 2013, average 54.87%
Thiem in 2017 at 56.3%, 54.7% (Thiem fractured ankle disrupts clay season), 52.9% (win against peak Djokovic Dulled the stats a bit, plus some rust entering RG due to Rome Fiasco) - average 54.63%

Djoko had the ignominy of losing to Federe in 2011, otherwise they all went down to Nadal. In case someone wants to cry fowl on Nadal those years we have:
Nadal 2005-2007 - 56.3% points won at RG
Nadal 2011-2013 - 56.6% points won at RG
Nadal 2017-2019 - 59.4%o_O points won at RG
@Poisoned Slice @MichaelNadal approved
Click to expand...

LOL Meles, seriously?

Look, Thiem is good on clay but we will only give a **** when he actually wins RG. Trying to make out he’s already better than two dudes who won it just makes you look daft.
P.S. I didn’t actually look at any of your stats, that would be a waste of my time.
 
Fabresque said:
He’s definitely the second best clay courter in the world. Personally considered Djokovic tied with him behind Nadal before this years edition but their SF, while close, made it clear Thiem is a better clay court player. I still think Novak would’ve done better in the final against Nadal than Thiem did, though.

Only up for Dom at the French!
Click to expand...
Its worth pointing out that Djokovic matches up well with Nadal. Thiem has wins over Nadal and took a set this year which is good. But he was not at his best once again in the final which with the rain/schedule and his draw (Djoko SF) was acceptable. Thiem was also badly hosed in 2016 by playing 4 very tough sets the day before his match with Djoko. Thiem in 2018 was completely out of form coming into RG due to fractured ankle in Miami disrupting his clay preparation. Despite the nice stats in 2017, as a fan that was more of a prime year, where the last two years he was or should have been in 2018 at peak level. The best may yet come for Thiem (Muster won RG in the year of his 28th birthday;)).
 
Tennisgods said:
LOL Meles, seriously?

Look, Thiem is good on clay but we will only give a **** when he actually wins RG. Trying to make out he’s already better than two dudes who won it just makes you look daft.
P.S. I didn’t actually look at any of your stats, that would be a waste of my time.
Click to expand...
Don't look at the stats, just look at their records at the same age; surely that's not beyond your mental capacity?:D
 
Meles said:
Its worth pointing out that Djokovic matches up well with Nadal. Thiem has wins over Nadal and took a set this year which is good. But he was not at his best once again in the final which with the rain/schedule and his draw (Djoko SF) was acceptable. Thiem was also badly hosed in 2016 by playing 4 very tough sets the day before his match with Djoko. Thiem in 2018 was completely out of form coming into RG due to fractured ankle in Miami disrupting his clay preparation. Despite the nice stats in 2017, as a fan that was more of a prime year, where the last two years he was or should have been in 2018 at peak level. The best may yet come for Thiem (Muster won RG in the year of his 28th birthday;)).
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, are you named after Monica Seles?
 
Tennisgods said:
LOL Meles, seriously?

Look, Thiem is good on clay but we will only give a **** when he actually wins RG. Trying to make out he’s already better than two dudes who won it just makes you look daft.
P.S. I didn’t actually look at any of your stats, that would be a waste of my time.
Click to expand...
Federer and Djokovic didn't win RG by 26.
 
Djokodal Fan said:
did Thiem had to face Nadal in semis like Djok/Fed always had to? there goes your relative comparison.

By your logic guga should be a better clay courter than Fed and Djoko. did I get it right?
Click to expand...
He faced Djokovic in his best year at RG (well maybe until this year) in 2016. Nadal definitely a peak year in 2017. Stats say 2019 a peak year, but the weather at the latter stages skewed things leaving Federe vulnerable in SF and Thiem not as his best in the final. He played statistically a much better Nadal in 2017-2019.

For the record Guga in 2000 and 2001 put up fine stats, but that is another era one where he was playing with early Poly while the hard court specialists were not on Poly strings yet. 1997 Kuerten had Poly strings all to himself.:cautious:
 
I'll admit freely that Thiem's draw evaporated in 2019 until he hit Djoko, but 2017 he had to beat Djoko after the Rome demolition and 2018 was a rougher one:
SF Clay Dominic Thiem Marco Cecchinato 7-5 7-6(10) 6-1 H2H
QF Clay Dominic Thiem Alexander Zverev 6-4 6-2 6-1 H2H
R16 Clay Dominic Thiem Kei Nishikori 6-2 6-0 5-7 6-4 H2H
R32 Clay Dominic Thiem Matteo Berrettini 6-3 6-7(5) 6-3 6-2 H2H
R64 Clay Dominic Thiem Stefanos Tsitsipas 6-2 2-6 6-4 6-4

Actually of these players are name players on clay right now and all top ten on clay or nearly with Cecchinato the weakest (but in form after beating Djoko)
 
Meles said:
Don't look at the stats, just look at their records at the same age; surely that's not beyond your mental capacity?:D
Click to expand...

Again, why waste my time? You and I both know he needs to win it. Which we would agree, he likely will do. But he hasn’t yet.
 
Zero big titles in the sport of clay tennis

The only nice thing there is to say about Thiem is that he is only four real grand slam trophies and one WTF title behind Jack Sock in the big titles count. So he is approaching a serviceable professional level in real tennis
 
Meles said:
giphy.gif

We can dispense with the raw statistics which are a landslide for Thiem. Record by year turned age (which makes Djokovic a bit older than Federer and Thiem the youngerer with birthday nearly one month after Fed.)
In the year of their 23rd Birthday:
Djokovic QF, Federe 3R, Thiem SF ----> Federe and Djoko lose
24th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe SF, Thiem SF ----> Tie
25th birthday year:
Djokovic F, Federe F, Thiem F ----> Tie
26th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe F, Thiem F -----> Djoko loses

Thiem did better or no worse for these early prime years of career (2016 was not even prime for Thiem). Federer is the closest as it can be argued that both he and Thiem would have won three straight RGs without Nadal in the draw. Please no discussion of worthless Masters titles on clay, etc. or we end up bringing in Zverev and possibly Tsitsipas before too long.;) For the record Thiem was severly impacted by weather in 2016 and 2019 with many days back to back on court.

If we go to points won at RG we have:
Federe in 2005 at healthy 55.3%, 54.5% in 2006, and 53.9% in 2007, 54.57%
Djoko in 2011 at 55.5%, 55.0% for 2012, and 54.1% in 2013, average 54.87%
Thiem in 2017 at 56.3%, 54.7% (Thiem fractured ankle disrupts clay season), 52.9% (win against peak Djokovic Dulled the stats a bit, plus some rust entering RG due to Rome Fiasco) - average 54.63%

Djoko had the ignominy of losing to Federe in 2011, otherwise they all went down to Nadal. In case someone wants to cry fowl on Nadal those years we have:
Nadal 2005-2007 - 56.3% points won at RG
Nadal 2011-2013 - 56.6% points won at RG
Nadal 2017-2019 - 59.4%o_O points won at RG
@Poisoned Slice @MichaelNadal approved
Click to expand...

Great thread.

But are you seriously arguing Nadal of 2017-19 is a better player than 2005-07?
 
Meles said:
giphy.gif

We can dispense with the raw statistics which are a landslide for Thiem. Record by year turned age (which makes Djokovic a bit older than Federer and Thiem the youngerer with birthday nearly one month after Fed.)
In the year of their 23rd Birthday:
Djokovic QF, Federe 3R, Thiem SF ----> Federe and Djoko lose
24th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe SF, Thiem SF ----> Tie
25th birthday year:
Djokovic F, Federe F, Thiem F ----> Tie
26th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe F, Thiem F -----> Djoko loses

Thiem did better or no worse for these early prime years of career (2016 was not even prime for Thiem). Federer is the closest as it can be argued that both he and Thiem would have won three straight RGs without Nadal in the draw. Please no discussion of worthless Masters titles on clay, etc. or we end up bringing in Zverev and possibly Tsitsipas before too long.;) For the record Thiem was severly impacted by weather in 2016 and 2019 with many days back to back on court.

If we go to points won at RG we have:
Federe in 2005 at healthy 55.3%, 54.5% in 2006, and 53.9% in 2007, 54.57%
Djoko in 2011 at 55.5%, 55.0% for 2012, and 54.1% in 2013, average 54.87%
Thiem in 2017 at 56.3%, 54.7% (Thiem fractured ankle disrupts clay season), 52.9% (win against peak Djokovic Dulled the stats a bit, plus some rust entering RG due to Rome Fiasco) - average 54.63%

Djoko had the ignominy of losing to Federe in 2011, otherwise they all went down to Nadal. In case someone wants to cry fowl on Nadal those years we have:
Nadal 2005-2007 - 56.3% points won at RG
Nadal 2011-2013 - 56.6% points won at RG
Nadal 2017-2019 - 59.4%o_O points won at RG
@Poisoned Slice @MichaelNadal approved
Click to expand...
I don't understand this topic. Should someone be provoked by it ?
 
...Already...

Can't imagine how a soon-to-be 40-year-old has been eclipsed. :(:cry::whistle:
 
Meles said:
giphy.gif

We can dispense with the raw statistics which are a landslide for Thiem. Record by year turned age (which makes Djokovic a bit older than Federer and Thiem the youngerer with birthday nearly one month after Fed.)
In the year of their 23rd Birthday:
Djokovic QF, Federe 3R, Thiem SF ----> Federe and Djoko lose
24th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe SF, Thiem SF ----> Tie
25th birthday year:
Djokovic F, Federe F, Thiem F ----> Tie
26th birthday year:
Djokovic SF, Federe F, Thiem F -----> Djoko loses

Thiem did better or no worse for these early prime years of career (2016 was not even prime for Thiem). Federer is the closest as it can be argued that both he and Thiem would have won three straight RGs without Nadal in the draw. Please no discussion of worthless Masters titles on clay, etc. or we end up bringing in Zverev and possibly Tsitsipas before too long.;) For the record Thiem was severly impacted by weather in 2016 and 2019 with many days back to back on court.

If we go to points won at RG we have:
Federe in 2005 at healthy 55.3%, 54.5% in 2006, and 53.9% in 2007, 54.57%
Djoko in 2011 at 55.5%, 55.0% for 2012, and 54.1% in 2013, average 54.87%
Thiem in 2017 at 56.3%, 54.7% (Thiem fractured ankle disrupts clay season), 52.9% (win against peak Djokovic Dulled the stats a bit, plus some rust entering RG due to Rome Fiasco) - average 54.63%

Djoko had the ignominy of losing to Federe in 2011, otherwise they all went down to Nadal. In case someone wants to cry fowl on Nadal those years we have:
Nadal 2005-2007 - 56.3% points won at RG
Nadal 2011-2013 - 56.6% points won at RG
Nadal 2017-2019 - 59.4%o_O points won at RG
@Poisoned Slice @MichaelNadal approved
Click to expand...
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roger-rg-trophy.jpg


Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
You can post whatever you want, but that doesn't make any of it true.

I'm fairly confident in my opinion that no one here posting any "data" or stats is qualified in any sort of related field. @Gary Duane posts some interesting stuff, but he's the exception.
 
Lleytonstation said:
What does being second on clay get you?
Click to expand...
Excited for when Thiem wins next year.;) I don't like to compare before the Poly era so really Fed and Nole the only comparisons with Thiem.
But if we go to games won at RG by their best years:
Borg has 71.1% in 1981, 76.8% in 1980, and 79.9% in 1978
Nadal 75.6% in 2008, 70.9% in 2012, and 76.8% in 2017, 69.2% in 2019
Djoko hit 64.9% in 2016 and 63.2% in 2019o_O
Lendl hit 64.1% in 1984, 66.5% in 1985 (lost to Wilander), 71.1% in 1986
Wilander 61.9% games won in 1983, 62.0% in 1985, 61.6% in 1988
Bruguera hit 68.7% in 1993, 64.0% in 1994
Muster 65.0% in 1995
Coria 63.1% in 2004
Vilas 73.6% in 1977 and 66.1% in 1975

Thiem in a losing year at 63.2% for 2017 is very high. Thiem, Federe, and Djoko all would have been strong champions at Roland Garros without Nadal in the way.:cool: One could also easily argue that the fields were not as deep in the Men's game in the 1970s and even the 1980s so a lot of lesser players to pump up the games won stats. Thiem has the potential to be third best behind Borg and Nadal if he keeps this up.:love:
 
fundrazer said:
You can post whatever you want, but that doesn't make any of it true.

I'm fairly confident in my opinion that no one here posting any "data" or stats is qualified in any sort of related field. @Gary Duane posts some interesting stuff, but he's the exception.
Click to expand...
Just look at the results by age, case closed for Thiem. The stats are just guilding the lily and something I enjoy greatly. Please let @Gary Duane and @falstaff78 if you know of some better experts than here on TTW.;)
 
Meles said:
Excited for when Thiem wins next year.;) I don't like to compare before the Poly era so really Fed and Nole the only comparisons with Thiem.
But if we go to games won at RG by their best years:
Borg has 71.1% in 1981, 76.8% in 1980, and 79.9% in 1978
Nadal 75.6% in 2008, 70.9% in 2012, and 76.8% in 2017, 69.2% in 2019
Djoko hit 64.9% in 2016 and 63.2% in 2019o_O
Lendl hit 64.1% in 1984, 66.5% in 1985 (lost to Wilander), 71.1% in 1986
Wilander 61.9% games won in 1983, 62.0% in 1985, 61.6% in 1988
Bruguera hit 68.7% in 1993, 64.0% in 1994
Muster 65.0% in 1995
Coria 63.1% in 2004
Vilas 73.6% in 1977 and 66.1% in 1975

Thiem in a losing year at 63.2% for 2017 is very high. Thiem, Federe, and Djoko all would have been strong champions at Roland Garros without Nadal in the way.:cool: One call also easily argue that the fields were not as deep in the Men's game in the 1970s and even the 1980s so a lot of lesser players to pump up the games won stats. Thiem has the potential to be third best behind Borg and Nadal if he keeps this up.:love:
Click to expand...
I hope he wins it next year, I would really love to see it for unknown reasons... ;)

However, lets be honest, does it really matter if it does not end in tourney wins such as masters and slams. He has yet to prove himself to do so. Fed has something to show for it. Djoker has somethng. Murray same thing. At what point does Thiem's stats really matter if it gets him nothing other than a good stats sheet on TTW?

Give me one RG and this thread will be much more appealing to the eyes and mind.:p
 
Meles said:
But ZERO by age 25. Thiem will likely end up with more than both of them. All we can say right now is that he is betterer at the same age at Roland Garros.
Click to expand...
Let him start with one, then we'll talk again...

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 
Lleytonstation said:
I hope he wins it next year, I would really love to see it for unknown reasons... ;)

However, lets be honest, does it really matter if it does not end in tourney wins such as masters and slams. He has yet to prove himself to do so. Fed has tried, and nothing. Djoker has tried and nothing. Murray same thing. At what point does Thiem's stats really matter if it gets him nothing other than a good stats sheet on TTW?

Give me one RG and this thread will be much more appealing to the eyes and mind.:p
Click to expand...
I think it matters when you have a player like Nadal blotting out the sun for the rest of the field. All we can do is compare by age and Thiem is exceptional at the clay slam. TTWers can't have it both ways and complain about slam results all the time when Thiem is producing them and demonstrating excellence.

I'm not even sure Thiem played all that well at RG this year given his very shaky start after his whining about the Rome scheduling and not getting enough matches coming into RG. In 2018 he barely got jump started after fractured ankle had him in poor form and added Lyon to the schedule where he looked like garbage until the weekend. I'm pretty sure a big year with numbers better than 2017 is coming the next few years.

Nadal is lucky in 2019 with the Final that he only played 2 of 5 days and lets face it Federe was toothless in the wind. Thiem had to play 4 days in a row.:mad:
 
Meles said:
I think it matters when you have a player like Nadal blotting out the sun for the rest of the field. All we can do is compare by age and Thiem is exceptional at the clay slam. TTWers can't have it both ways and complain about slam results all the time when Thiem is producing them and demonstrating excellence.

I'm not even sure Thiem played all that well at RG this year given his very shaky start after his whining about the Rome scheduling and not getting enough matches coming into RG. In 2018 he barely got jump started after fractured ankle had him in poor form and added Lyon to the schedule where he looked like garbage until the weekend. I'm pretty sure a big year with numbers better than 2017 is coming the next few years.

Nadal is lucky in 2019 with the Final that he only played 2 of 5 days and lets face it Federe was toothless in the wind. Thiem had to play 4 days in a row.:mad:
Click to expand...
What if Thiem goes on to win USO? How does that change things. Honestly, and I get ripped every time I say this, but I think Thiem will have a great shot at USO and might get his first slam there and not at RG.
 
So, Thiem is the latest player to be 2nd behind Nadal on clay.

Agreed that he's a more natural player on the surface, more of a clay specialist if you will, than Federer or Novak Djokovic - but to claim he is somehow greater than them on the surface is premature.
 
Lleytonstation said:
What if Thiem goes on to win USO? How does that change things. Honestly, and I get ripped every time I say this, but I think Thiem will have a great shot at USO and might get his first slam there and not at RG.
Click to expand...
Hopefully El Vampiro will roll him onto hard courts now that his points position is quite secure rather than trying to vulture Hamburg or something (Thiem just not stimulated by those events it seems).

Thiem has no chance at Wimbledon, but just maybe if he serves lights out he might get some good points. Frankly he had no right to take Bendych to five sets in 2017, but he did. Wimbledon is all about serve so Thiem could pull it together. My hopes are on Meddy, Tsits, FAA, and perhaps Zverev who seems to be waking up with Lendl finally back on the job.:mad: Same old, same old rinse and repeat pigeons just not that interesting. Big 3 all looking quite tasty for Wimby so Diamond Age rolls on.:p

US Open Series intrigues me because I only heard of the surface change at the US Open. Do they now roll this out to all the other events in the Series? If this is the case then we'll see before the US Open if Thiem is able to return the biggest servers once again and become a threat. On paper this helps Djokodal and the youngerer players in my eyes. Its going to be quite a nice juncture of the year given that Tsits, Zedrot, FAA, Demon, and Shapo all had some good results over the last few years (Rublev US Open 2017 comes to mind as well.) Even Khachanov should like it, but not so sure about Medvedev.
 
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