Letter Sent to Senior USTA Advisors and Personnel Re: Recent 18+ Men's and Women's 4.5 National Championships Held in Arlington, TX

melteller

New User
My apologies to everyone for the length of this post and the two that follow, but I wanted to share with you the following letter that was written my myself (captain of the SoCal women's team) and the captain of the Florida women's team, and endorsed by the captains of 13 other teams that participated in 18+ 4.5 Nationals in Arlington, TX the weekend of Oct 12-14. The event was pretty much a disaster from start to finish, due to horrible weather and a total lack of contingency planning by the USTA.

Ours was certainly not the first such national USTA competition to be severely impacted by bad weather, nor will it be the last – unless and until the USTA steps up and administers these events properly, beginning with having adequate contingency plans in place.

(Given the 10000-character limit placed on posts to this message board, I will have to split the letter into three posts.)

To the USTA President, Board of Directors, Adult Tennis National Committee, and Senior Management:

We are the captains of the Florida and Southern California 18+ women’s 4.5 teams who participated in the Nationals event hosted in Arlington, TX, October 12-14. We are writing on behalf of our own team members as well as a number of other women’s and men’s teams who were also at the event; their names and teams are listed below. (Note that this list includes the captains of both teams that ultimately earned the title of National Champions – the Southern women’s team and the Midwestern men’s team.)

We write you to express our extreme disappointment and frustration with the handling of our Nationals event, and to respond to the letter that we received on October 17 from Jeff Waters (Managing Director of USTA Community Tennis) regarding the same (a copy of which is attached hereto for your reference). For the reasons set forth below, we believe that Mr. Waters’ letter fails to adequately redress the numerous problems posed by the format changes implemented by event officials over the weekend.

To help you better understand the issues we are raising, we will begin with a brief recap of what transpired during the event:
  • Beginning one week before the competition was scheduled to commence, weather forecasts were consistently calling for heavy rain in Arlington throughout the weekend. It is unclear what, if any, efforts were made by the tournament officials at that time to secure adequate indoor courts (or whether they even had the support of more senior USTA personnel to do so). Whatever contingency measures they may have discussed, based upon conversations one team captain had with them on Thursday October 11, their “plan” was to hope for enough dry weather on Friday and Saturday to complete four rounds of play – and to shorten the format and accelerate the match schedule in any way necessary to achieve that goal.
  • By Friday October 12, there was no escaping the heavy rain that was forecasted to arrive by sometime that afternoon. When teams checked in at the tournament desk on Friday morning, we were informed that the first matches would begin at 7:00am (instead of 7:30am), and that the format would be abbreviated by shortening the sets from 6 games to 4 (with a deciding game at 3 games-all), and using only a 7-point match tiebreak in the event of split sets. Starting times for all subsequent matches were moved up 1-2 hours earlier due to the shortened match format.
  • But even with these modifications in place, the rain began in earnest on Friday afternoon before two rounds of play could be completed. At this point, tournament officials scrambled to come up with a plan. A few teams whose Round One matches had not yet been completed were sent to a facility in Fort Worth (30 miles away) with two indoor courts. But no other indoor courts could be secured, so officials sent everyone else back to their hotels to await further instructions.
  • On Friday night, tournament officials contacted those captains whose teams had not been able to complete their Round Two matches, and informed them that their only option was to finish those matches on Saturday morning at 6:00am at an indoor facility in Dallas (Brookhaven Country Club) – 30 miles from Arlington. These were the only indoor courts that tournament officials were able to secure, and they were only available from 6:00am to 7:30am.
  • Those teams impacted by this directive (some of whom had already played a 7:00am match on Friday) had to leave Arlington at 5:15am on Saturday and drive through torrential rain to arrive at Brookhaven by 6:00am. Once their Round Two matches were complete, there was nothing to do but return to Arlington because tournament officials were unable to secure additional indoor court time until 8:30pm that evening – once again in Dallas at Brookhaven (which could not make courts available any earlier because it had already committed to hosting the Texas Combo Doubles Sectionals event from 6:00pm to 8:00pm).
  • Determined to squeeze two more rounds into a three-hour time window, tournament officials abridged the format for Rounds Three and Four even further – to a single set of the first to 4 games with no-ad scoring (win by 2), and a 7-point deciding tiebreak at 4 games-all.
  • Of the 16 courts at Brookhaven that were used for match play, only eight were true “indoor courts” that were housed in a climate-controlled building which was reasonably well-lit. The remaining eight courts were simply “covered courts” housed in what was aptly referred to as the “Barn.” The courts in the Barn, while shielded from the rain, were very dimly lit and had an extremely low ceiling that effectively precluded any lobbing. The lack of consistent playing conditions across all courts, coupled with the extreme times of day at which some teams were forced to play, created an unlevel playing field that arbitrarily gave some teams an advantage over others.
  • After the completion of each round of play, tournament officials converted the actual (abbreviated) scores to the standard format of 2-out-of-3 sets (first to 6 games) so that they could be entered into Tennis Link. Once all four rounds were completed (sometime after 1:00am on Sunday), the officials used these manufactured results to determine the top four finishing men’s and women’s teams who would advance to the semifinals later Sunday morning.
  • Many players did not get back to their hotels in Arlington until 2:00am or later on Sunday, and tournament officials did not notify teams of the results until 2:15am. Yet all of the semifinalists were required to check in at Arlington Tennis Center at 7:15am (less than five hours later) for their matches to start at 7:30am – this time using the standard 2-out-of-3-set format.
With those background facts in mind, we can now address the serious ramifications that resulted:

1. It was obvious to all of the team captains that tournament officials wanted to be in a position to say that despite the inclement weather, they had succeeded in completing all four rounds of “matches” that had been in the original tournament schedule. We could not tell whether they made this the priority at the direction of more senior USTA personnel in the National office, or whether they had the discretion to consider other options (such as reducing the number of preliminary rounds from four to three). But their single-minded determination to accomplish this goal required them to repeatedly abbreviate the format of these so-called “matches” – so much so that the quality of matches was sacrificed and the reliability of the resulting scores nullified. Matches during Rounds One and Two lasted barely more than 30 minutes each; matches during Rounds Three and Four lasted less than 15 minutes.

For a competition among 4.5-level players, the results generated by these formats (particularly in Rounds Three and Four) were not a true indication of the better player(s). So even if all teams were subjected to the same conditions, many of the components crucial to winning a competitive match were effectively removed from the equation – most significantly, mental and physical endurance.

Given the unreliability of the formats used, the validity of the final rankings and resulting selection of the top four teams was highly questionable. (On the women’s side, only one team had a 4-0 record after four rounds; another 6 teams were tied at 3-1. The top three of those teams were ultimately determined based upon total number of lines won and total number of sets lost, but given the inherent, fundamental problems posed by the formats, to then use these razor-thin margins as a tiebreaker was not a trustworthy determination of the top four teams.)

(Letter continues in next two posts.)
 

melteller

New User
Continuation of Letter to USTA:


2. All participants, regardless of whether their teams ended up in the final four, felt cheated out of a legitimate competition. Qualifying to compete at Nationals is an incredibly hard thing to do, especially at the 4.5 level; once they earn that right to participate, hundreds of players across the country travel thousands of miles to do so – taking off work, leaving behind spouses and children, and incurring considerable expenses. They come to Nationals expecting to compete with the best teams across the country; what they got in Arlington was a format so condensed as to be rendered meaningless and a sum total of less than 90 minutes of playtime. This shows a real lack of respect on the part of the USTA for the players who worked so hard be a part of a national-level competition; they deserve far better than this.

3. To add further insult to injury, the USTA’s “split-up-or-move-up” rule will now prevent our teams from having another shot at a legitimate national competition for at least two years. Having knocked ourselves out to get to Arlington in 2018, we must now suffer the double-whammy of (1) being denied the opportunity to compete there in any meaningful way and (2) losing the chance to earn a do-over as a team in 2019.

4. Finally, the inclusion of the converted match scores in ratings calculations could have serious negative ramifications for a number of players, who then would be denied any opportunity to compete in a meaningful 4.5-level national competition next year. In his letter dated October 17, Jeff Waters claims – without offering any supporting evidence – that participating players’ dynamic ratings “were not materially impacted, either up or down, by the inclusion of” the converted match scores. Whatever analysis was performed by the USTA to reach this conclusion was a purely hypothetical exercise, because the USTA doesn’t have any bona fide match scores from the competition to use for comparison.

But at this high level of league competition, it is simply unreasonable to assume that just because a player who gets off to a slow start (or has trouble adjusting to the extremely poor lighting conditions and low ceilings found on half of the indoor courts that were used, etc.) and loses 1-4 in all of 12 minutes, that same player would lose 1-6, 2-6 to the same opponent in a real match. The USTA’s conversions may be mathematically correct, but they don’t account for the absurdity of the format that was used, which is not a valid measure of anything. And given that fundamental flaw, the assertion that such skewed results would not materially impact the dynamic ratings of at least some players is highly suspect – especially since the USTA’s ratings algorithm assigns greater weight to the results of national matches than to those played at the local or even sectional level.

Based upon all of the foregoing, and in consideration of the enormous amount of time, effort and money that we as participants expended in what turned out to be a weekend of almost no tennis whatsoever, we respectfully ask that the USTA do the following:

1. Waive the move-up-or-split-up rule for all 18+ 4.5 teams that competed this year, and allow these teams to compete again in 2019.

2. Do not include the results from 18+ 4.5 Nationals (Rounds One through Four) in players’ rating calculations. (If in fact, as the USTA claims, these converted scores did not have a material impact on player ratings, then why not just exclude them altogether?)

3. As a gesture of goodwill, reimburse the $55 registration fee paid by each participating player (which is of course but a tiny fraction of the total costs these players incurred to be a part of the event), or provide each of them with a credit for future USTA membership (lifetime).

As for future national league competitions, while Mr. Waters promises in his October 17 letter that the USTA will make sure to have better contingency plans in place going forward, he fails to indicate just what those plans will be – or to address why no such plans had been made for our Nationals event. Indeed, ours was hardly the first such USTA national competition to be disrupted by poor advance planning and bad weather.

To prevent a repeat of what happened to us in Arlington (and at previous Nationals events where bad weather prevented a legitimate competition from taking place), we believe that the following measures are needed (the exact combination of which will depend on the time of year and location chosen for any particular event):
  • National league competitions should only be held at locations where there are adequate indoor courts nearby (or at a place and time of year where there is little to no chance of precipitation, such as California or Arizona outside of their rainy seasons). Indoor courts should be reserved well in advance of the event (while they are still available); if it turns out that these courts are not needed for match play because the weather cooperates, they can be made available to participating teams as practice courts throughout the tournament. If the added cost of reserving indoor courts is of great concern to the USTA (but with several hundred million dollars of cash in the USTA’s coffers, it really shouldn’t be), it should raise the registration fee by $25-50 per person.
  • The USTA should build more cushion into the tournament schedule by holding the event over the course of 4-5 days instead of just a weekend. (If, for example, our event had started on Wednesday or even Thursday instead of Friday, many more matches could have been completed outdoors and without having to severely truncate the format.)
  • The USTA should have a rain date set for each tournament, and should inform all qualifying players of the possibility (however remote) of later rescheduling – before these players register or make any travel arrangements. It should also encourage all participants to purchase travel insurance that would cover the costs associated with any such rescheduling.

(Letter concludes in next post.)
 

melteller

New User
Conclusion of Letter to USTA:


Each year, adult league players across all 17 sections of the US support the USTA by paying their membership dues as well as multiple team registration fees. We also pay for our tennis-playing children to participate in USTA junior tournaments, tennis programs, and the like. When the USTA seriously mishandles a national-level league competition without any recourse for the event participants, it risks alienating a critical portion of its membership base.

We thank you in advance for your consideration of our requests, and look forward to your reply.

Respectfully submitted,

Helen Ciesla, Captain, Florida Women’s Team
Melissa Teller, Captain, Southern California Women’s Team


ON BEHALF OF

Team Captains:
  • Ashley Rogers, Captain, Southern Women’s Team
  • Margaret Bogumil, Captain, Eastern Women’s Team
  • Lindsay Ebbert, Captain, New England Women’s Team
  • Sasha Verret, Captain, Caribbean Women’s Team
  • Kimberlee Toalepai, Captain, Intermountain Women’s Team
  • Jennifer Hreljac, Captain, Hawaii Women’s Team
  • Adam Perkins, Captain, Midwestern Men’s Team
  • Mike Feci, Captain, Florida Men’s Team
  • Bruce Gullikson, Captain, Northern Men’s Team
  • Logan Gruhl, Captain, Mid Atlantic Men’s Team
  • Chris Terpko, Captain, New England Men’s Team
  • Yubie Albert, Captain, Southern Men’s Team
  • Erick Torres, Captain, Southwest Men’s Team
Team Members:
  • Florida Women’s Team: Deborah Grissett, Jennifer Dipaula, Denise Sheffield, Mary Bush, Paula Miller, Marie Waller, Lisa Miller, Geraldine Sy, Jan Sisko, Cindy Vermut, Cynthia Searle, Jana Dankelman
  • So Cal Women’s Team: Maria Lupu, Karen Chu, Romy Mehlman, Serena Davis, Yuri Nichelson, Joanah Greenspan, Stephanie Ellis, Emily Werman
  • Southern Women’s Team: Hartley Watts, Michelle Bass
  • Eastern Women’s Team: Joanna Brougher, Helen Titus, Kristin Janese, Maria Lapetina, Lana Ivy, Anne Magellan, Jennifer Ickowski, Bev Dyminski , Erica Freeman
  • Hawaii Women’s Team: Joy Kukino, Sarah Kukino, Lisa Knutson, Kareen Konishi, Michelle Martinez, Kristin Fuchigami, Barbara Hubbard, Kara Shibata
  • No Cal Women’s Team: Cori Lee, Caroline Raynaud
  • Northern Men’s Team: Jason Prochnow, Oliver Summers, Adam Gustad, Eric Gleason
  • Southern Men’s Team: Casey Black, Carlos Garcia-Shelton, Clay Garst, Drew Sandri, Gauri Metsoja, Guillermo Velarde, Jeff Smith, John Tomasheski, Matthew Skelly, Simon Cagle, Simon Collis, Stephen Laroche, Zach Nelson
  • Southwest Men’s Team: Daniel Dominguez, Santiago Ozante, Jonathan Ozante, David Sandoval, Timothy Cantrell, Carlos Fraire, Jose Maese, Javier Porras, Alexander Sandoval, Guram Bezhanishvili, Clint Loest, Juan Tiscareno, Gustavo Ganem, Rafael Garcia, Juan Uraga, Carlos Sandoval, Chuck Maynard
 
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You should have just made the other posts replies to this one. Then it would all be in the same thread, and we could discuss it in one place..
 
Jesus christ, reading it that was so bad. Getting in at 2am and being required to check in at 7:15 AM the next day??? WTF???

Yeah, this has the effect you expect - if I ever happen to qualify for nationals, I'm probably not going to go. And if I did, that kind of stuff would make me say "screw the tennis, I'm just gonna go visit the city instead".
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Wow, you just posted all those names and emails.

This really happened?

You can't even blame rain, that's just utter stupidity and blatant disregard for your fellow captains.

J
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
What are the requests?

Edited to add: Nevermind just found the other two threads.
 
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See, I feel like the USTA managed to screw everybody... because if they waive the move-up split-up rule that would seem pretty unfair to *other* teams that *didn't* go to nationals.

Think of it from their perspective. Someone put together a team of ringers, went to nationals... and because of BS at nationals, that team gets to stay at-level, they don't have to split up and appeals are granted, and they get to beat up on their local competition *again*. That doesn't seem fair to the other teams.

That's the problem. No solution seems fair anymore, because of the original screwup.
 

dsp9753

Semi-Pro
See, I feel like the USTA managed to screw everybody... because if they waive the move-up split-up rule that would seem pretty unfair to *other* teams that *didn't* go to nationals.

Think of it from their perspective. Someone put together a team of ringers, went to nationals... and because of BS at nationals, that team gets to stay at-level, they don't have to split up and appeals are granted, and they get to beat up on their local competition *again*. That doesn't seem fair to the other teams.

That's the problem. No solution seems fair anymore, because of the original screwup.

I think they are only asking that the split up rule be removed, not that everyone gets a blanket get to stay at the same level. If you were gonna get bumped prior to nationals, you are still gonna get bumped. But for everyone who did not get bumped, they get to stay and form the team together. Will this solve the problem? Probably not but it will remove a handful of players from the pool.
 

schmke

Legend
I think they are only asking that the split up rule be removed, not that everyone gets a blanket get to stay at the same level. If you were gonna get bumped prior to nationals, you are still gonna get bumped. But for everyone who did not get bumped, they get to stay and form the team together. Will this solve the problem? Probably not but it will remove a handful of players from the pool.
Except they are asking scores to be thrown out due to the excessively short format and resulting score extrapolation. Throw scores out, and some players that probably should be bumped aren't, let alone throwing scores out making it impossible to do year-end benchmark calculations for this level.
 

dsp9753

Semi-Pro
I also think all the nationals have been poorly run in regards to rain delays. But I think there are a couple of problems that does not make it an easy fix.

1. There probably aren't many facilities if any that have large amounts of outdoor courts and indoor courts for use. (Why would you build 20+ outdoor courts in an area that needs to have indoor courts? Vica Versa.)
2. There probably is no facility where they have enough indoor courts to host USTA nationals unless you split up every group to a different location. For example women's 4.5 play at this specific club. Etc.
3. All the sunny locations with very little rain and warm weather are on the west coast (Cali and Arizona). This brings up the complaint why does everyone else always need to travel to West Coast. Why can't we have some events throughout the East and West to make travel/time a little fairer? (The why is that Cali and Arizona have good weather most of the time.)
 

Vox Rationis

Professional
Except they are asking scores to be thrown out due to the excessively short format and resulting score extrapolation. Throw scores out, and some players that probably should be bumped aren't, let alone throwing scores out making it impossible to do year-end benchmark calculations for this level.
At the same time, don't throw out scores and some players that shouldn't be bumped would be just because their opponent got off to a slow start. I just won a practice doubles match this week coming back from 0-4 to win the 1st set and we eventually won the match. That would most likely have been drastically different in the format they played. I can agree with throwing out the scores. I think incorporating them skews things more than leaving them out would.

I may go even further and recommend that a wider appeal margin is granted for bumped players from these teams to allow all but the players who are very clearly out of level to have a chance to compete for the chance to do this again next year.
I'd be 100% against this though. There should already be enough information to bump people up about as accurately as everyone else in the country. They've already played a full season plus districts and sectionals. No need to make it easier for them to appeal. Personally I would throw out nationals and go off what they have.
 
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dsp9753

Semi-Pro
Except they are asking scores to be thrown out due to the excessively short format and resulting score extrapolation. Throw scores out, and some players that probably should be bumped aren't, let alone throwing scores out making it impossible to do year-end benchmark calculations for this level.

I personally feel like the scores must stay in and count. They were played in good faith and everyone tried their best. Everyone is trying their hardest at nationals. Some people are slow starters and may get shafted, but in this scenario, someone is going to get the shaft no matter what. (Getting the bump because opponents are slow starters or they don't get the bump but they should have.)

Removing the 3 player rule seems more acceptable? Fair? Not sure. Not sure what the best way would be to recompense everyone.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I also think all the nationals have been poorly run in regards to rain delays. But I think there are a couple of problems that does not make it an easy fix.

1. There probably aren't many facilities if any that have large amounts of outdoor courts and indoor courts for use. (Why would you build 20+ outdoor courts in an area that needs to have indoor courts? Vica Versa.)
2. There probably is no facility where they have enough indoor courts to host USTA nationals unless you split up every group to a different location. For example women's 4.5 play at this specific club. Etc.
3. All the sunny locations with very little rain and warm weather are on the west coast (Cali and Arizona). This brings up the complaint why does everyone else always need to travel to West Coast. Why can't we have some events throughout the East and West to make travel/time a little fairer? (The why is that Cali and Arizona have good weather most of the time.)
On point 2, I don't think anyone would care if they had to use 10 different indoor facilities if it meant getting to play real matches. People understand that the weather is out of the USTA's control and that reasonable accommodations will have to be made for bad weather. The complaint is that the accommodations in this case had to be so severe because of poor planning (which IS under the USTA's control) that it almost invalidates the whole competition.
 
I personally feel like the scores must stay in and count. They were played in good faith and everyone tried their best. Everyone is trying their hardest at nationals. Some people are slow starters and may get shafted, but in this scenario, someone is going to get the shaft no matter what. (Getting the bump because opponents are slow starters or they don't get the bump but they should have.)

Removing the 3 player rule seems more acceptable? Fair? Not sure. Not sure what the best way would be to recompense everyone.

The scores should stay as they are, but NOT be scaled up. So if you go down 4-0, that should count as a 4-0 loss. But it's not reasonable to "scale" that score to a 6-0 6-0 loss.
 

Vox Rationis

Professional
The scores should stay as they are, but NOT be scaled up. So if you go down 4-0, that should count as a 4-0 loss. But it's not reasonable to "scale" that score to a 6-0 6-0 loss.
Yeah I think my problem is with scaling the scores and not whether they count or not. Agree with Max here.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Except they are asking scores to be thrown out due to the excessively short format and resulting score extrapolation. Throw scores out, and some players that probably should be bumped aren't, let alone throwing scores out making it impossible to do year-end benchmark calculations for this level.

Imagine you are a 4.0 benchwarmer in 40+ 4.5+ and you are the throw court in #1 singles against a guy getting bumped to 5.5 and through some luck win a game to lose 1-4, the score gets entered as 2-6, 3-6 and bam you are a 5.0.

J
 

rod99

Professional
the USTA just wrote us back and said that all players will get their $55 entry fee reimbursed. they are also putting together a task force to review the recommendations and should have responses in the next 30 days.

even though i'm on the east coast i would gladly pay the extra $ if nationals is somewhere on the west coast to take rain out of the equation. it's very hard to find enough indoor courts to host a whole tournament unless you end up playing until late at night.

personally, i don't think the split up rule should be waived. you have to split up b/c you are good enough to earn a trip to nationals, not what actually happened at nationals. it sucks that everyone got screwed with the tournament but i still think you should have to split up.

i do think that the dynamic ratings for the tournament should be thrown out. for 2 days a 4-1 win (which could be one break, playing indoors) goes down as a 6-1, 6-2 score. that's not right. neither is the fact that conditioning (for singles mainly) was irrelevant.

hopefully this means no more nationals (and hopefully no sectionals) in mobile. it's the wettest city in the continental US and has no indoor courts in the vicinity.
 
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J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
the USTA just wrote us back and said that all players will get their $55 entry fee reimbursed. they are also putting together a task force to review the recommendations and should have responses in the next 30 days.

even though i'm on the east coast i would gladly pay the extra $ if nationals is somewhere on the west coast to take rain out of the equation. it's very hard to find enough indoor courts to host a whole tournament unless you end up playing until late at night.

personally, i don't think the split up rule should be waived. you have to split up b/c you are good enough to earn a trip to nationals, not what actually happened at nationals. it sucks that everyone got screwed with the tournament but i still think you should have to split up.

i do think that the dynamic ratings for the tournament should be thrown out. for 2 days a 4-1 win (which could be one break, playing indoors) goes down as a 6-1, 6-2 score. that's not right. neither is the fact that conditioning (for singles mainly) was irrelevant.

Considering that you have to split up even if you don't go, I don't see them waiving it.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm feeling some angry feelings on those guys behalf. Some poor soul was super hyped for finally making it to Nationals, spent money on travel, spent wife credits for the weekend away from home, shows up for what is essentially a coin toss and then gets to go home.

Wife credits!

That's something I had never heard of but knew exactly what it was the first time I heard it.

Like "sharticles."

J
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I am surprised that the recommendation that everyone is ignoring is probabaly the best, and the easiest to implement: expand to a 4 day format instead of a 3 day format.

Getting round robin play begun on a Thursday allows for all sorts of inclement weather while avoiding match modifications like shortened sets, no ad, etc..

Having to play unitl 1am or 2am and then again at 7am due to USTA's bad planning (or lack of planning) is egregious..

That being said, the 4.0s descended on my club in Vegas last night for the captain's meeting. So Thursday night captains meeting, why was the captain's meeting in Arlington Friday morning? just slows everything down more to begin with.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I am surprised that the recommendation that everyone is ignoring is probabaly the best, and the easiest to implement: expand to a 4 day format instead of a 3 day format.

Getting round robin play begun on a Thursday allows for all sorts of inclement weather while avoiding match modifications like shortened sets, no ad, etc..

Having to play unitl 1am or 2am and then again at 7am due to USTA's bad planning (or lack of planning) is egregious..

That being said, the 4.0s descended on my club in Vegas last night for the captain's meeting. So Thursday night captains meeting, why was the captain's meeting in Arlington Friday morning? just slows everything down more to begin with.

Here's one for you. Local league starts before the captain's meeting here. They said they would email us any rule changes. Got the team number and schedule yesterday. Season starts in 5 days.

J
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
I am surprised that the recommendation that everyone is ignoring is probabaly the best, and the easiest to implement: expand to a 4 day format instead of a 3 day format.

Getting round robin play begun on a Thursday allows for all sorts of inclement weather while avoiding match modifications like shortened sets, no ad, etc..

Having to play unitl 1am or 2am and then again at 7am due to USTA's bad planning (or lack of planning) is egregious..

That being said, the 4.0s descended on my club in Vegas last night for the captain's meeting. So Thursday night captains meeting, why was the captain's meeting in Arlington Friday morning? just slows everything down more to begin with.
I honestly don't think that's a good idea. People on these teams have presumably already taking off work to play at districts and at sectionals. Adding another day to the mix is too much.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I honestly don't think that's a good idea. People on these teams have presumably already taking off work to play at districts and at sectionals. Adding another day to the mix is too much.

You think so? Our local districts runs in the evening during the week ... no weekend matches. Sectionals is only Fri-Sun so what, one day off? In most areas, sectionals is going to be driving distance.

Based on what was going on at the club yesterday, the courts were booked by 4.0 teams from early in the morning through about 6pm ... a lot of them came in Wednesday night ... got some hits in Thursday to prep for playing on Friday ...
 
That being said, the 4.0s descended on my club in Vegas last night for the captain's meeting. So Thursday night captains meeting, why was the captain's meeting in Arlington Friday morning? just slows everything down more to begin with.

My guess is the letter is referring to when teams check-in in the morning before matches, not the captains meeting. That being said, the captains meeting would have been the place to actually DETAIL THE PLANS IN CASE OF WEATHER ISSUES!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Good point, needed full scores for benchmarking maybe?
shrug_3246314b.jpg


J
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
You think so? Our local districts runs in the evening during the week ... no weekend matches. Sectionals is only Fri-Sun so what, one day off? In most areas, sectionals is going to be driving distance.

Based on what was going on at the club yesterday, the courts were booked by 4.0 teams from early in the morning through about 6pm ... a lot of them came in Wednesday night ... got some hits in Thursday to prep for playing on Friday ...
You're lucky. Here Districts runs Thursday - Sunday and is usually a couple hours drive. Sectionals is a 10+ hour drive and also runs Thursday - Saturday. For most folks I know that's a lot of time away from home and work for just playing beer league tennis and this letter proposes another day for nationals? No thanks from me.
 

schmke

Legend
I'm guessing they have no way of entering anything other than 6 game sets
At one point a few years ago, I believe scores could be entered in the alternate format, I know for example I saw pro-set scores entered, but even these I understand would be converted to a full score before going into the algorithm.

I believe the current practice is to force the conversion on entry like you note, but since scores would be converted before going into the algorithm regardless, the effect on ratings is the same.

The question then is what is an equitable conversion? Or do you throw it out?

The argument for throwing it out is that the partial scores less than a full set are normally ignored, presumably because enough tennis hasn't been played, so these should be too.

I think part of the issue with the current conversion is it is just linear and does not account for any ebb and flow of the match or a player coming back, or differentiating between 4-1 being a single or double break, etc. Given so few games played, there is no perfect conversion, but perhaps one that had more of the converted scores being closer might be more palatable?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
At one point a few years ago, I believe scores could be entered in the alternate format, I know for example I saw pro-set scores entered, but even these I understand would be converted to a full score before going into the algorithm.

I believe the current practice is to force the conversion on entry like you note, but since scores would be converted before going into the algorithm regardless, the effect on ratings is the same.

The question then is what is an equitable conversion? Or do you throw it out?

The argument for throwing it out is that the partial scores less than a full set are normally ignored, presumably because enough tennis hasn't been played, so these should be too.

I think part of the issue with the current conversion is it is just linear and does not account for any ebb and flow of the match or a player coming back, or differentiating between 4-1 being a single or double break, etc. Given so few games played, there is no perfect conversion, but perhaps one that had more of the converted scores being closer might be more palatable?

It's exceptionally problematic at nationals since an entire section could be misrated when they homogenize. If it's just one match in a local league it's not such a big deal.

J
 

BallBag

Professional
At one point a few years ago, I believe scores could be entered in the alternate format, I know for example I saw pro-set scores entered, but even these I understand would be converted to a full score before going into the algorithm.

I believe the current practice is to force the conversion on entry like you note, but since scores would be converted before going into the algorithm regardless, the effect on ratings is the same.

The question then is what is an equitable conversion? Or do you throw it out?

The argument for throwing it out is that the partial scores less than a full set are normally ignored, presumably because enough tennis hasn't been played, so these should be too.

I think part of the issue with the current conversion is it is just linear and does not account for any ebb and flow of the match or a player coming back, or differentiating between 4-1 being a single or double break, etc. Given so few games played, there is no perfect conversion, but perhaps one that had more of the converted scores being closer might be more palatable?

Yeah, they put them selves is a pickle. Those scores should be weighted down to almost nothing but instead those scores will be used to benchmark the whole country.
 

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
I also think all the nationals have been poorly run in regards to rain delays. But I think there are a couple of problems that does not make it an easy fix.

1. There probably aren't many facilities if any that have large amounts of outdoor courts and indoor courts for use. (Why would you build 20+ outdoor courts in an area that needs to have indoor courts? Vica Versa.)
2. There probably is no facility where they have enough indoor courts to host USTA nationals unless you split up every group to a different location. For example women's 4.5 play at this specific club. Etc.
3. All the sunny locations with very little rain and warm weather are on the west coast (Cali and Arizona). This brings up the complaint why does everyone else always need to travel to West Coast. Why can't we have some events throughout the East and West to make travel/time a little fairer? (The why is that Cali and Arizona have good weather most of the time.)


I guess I'm pretty dense. With the amount of cash in the coffers, and the amount of construction/development that went into the new center in Orlando, I guess I don't understand why ~30-40 of the 100 courts in Orlando were not constructed with any sort of roof/bubble availability...then they could have every national tourney in one place any time they want, and they wouldn't have to run around negotiating with all these other towns/facilities, and they wouldn't have to piece-meal a contingency plan...good grief...
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I guess I'm pretty dense. With the amount of cash in the coffers, and the amount of construction/development that went into the new center in Orlando, I guess I don't understand why ~30-40 of the 100 courts in Orlando were not constructed with any sort of roof/bubble availability...then they could have every national tourney in one place any time they want, and they wouldn't have to run around negotiating with all these other towns/facilities, and they wouldn't have to piece-meal a contingency plan...good grief...

Come on, it's fun playing shortened matches on their three indoor courts.

J
 

schmke

Legend
I guess I'm pretty dense. With the amount of cash in the coffers, and the amount of construction/development that went into the new center in Orlando, I guess I don't understand why ~30-40 of the 100 courts in Orlando were not constructed with any sort of roof/bubble availability...then they could have every national tourney in one place any time they want, and they wouldn't have to run around negotiating with all these other towns/facilities, and they wouldn't have to piece-meal a contingency plan...good grief...
To be fair, to my knowledge, there has not been a major weather incident/delays for USTA League Nationals held at the National Campus, the big ones have been in Ft. Lauderdale, Mobile, and this year Arlington. So while Orlando can certainly get rain, they've either been lucky or can adapt due to the large number of courts and can catch up, or do have some indoor courts that can be used when needed.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
To be fair, to my knowledge, there has not been a major weather incident/delays for USTA League Nationals held at the National Campus, the big ones have been in Ft. Lauderdale, Mobile, and this year Arlington. So while Orlando can certainly get rain, they've either been lucky or can adapt due to the large number of courts and can catch up, or do have some indoor courts that can be used when needed.

We had rain last year, the women played indoors the men played in the rain.

J
 

rod99

Professional
To be fair, to my knowledge, there has not been a major weather incident/delays for USTA League Nationals held at the National Campus, the big ones have been in Ft. Lauderdale, Mobile, and this year Arlington. So while Orlando can certainly get rain, they've either been lucky or can adapt due to the large number of courts and can catch up, or do have some indoor courts that can be used when needed.

obviously cost is an issue but i would have thought that they would have built a large number of indoor courts at the national campus. during the summer in florida it rains during the afternoon at some point on most days.
 

schmke

Legend
We had rain last year, the women played indoors the men played in the rain.

J
I guess it depends where you draw the line to call something a major incident. Losing complete days to rain and playing single sets qualifies as major to me. Having delays but being able to catch-up playing on extra courts or indoors but still using full format is an inconvenience, but not major. Now, if in order to catch-up or keep full format you played _in_ the rain on wet hard courts ...
 

dsp9753

Semi-Pro
I guess I'm pretty dense. With the amount of cash in the coffers, and the amount of construction/development that went into the new center in Orlando, I guess I don't understand why ~30-40 of the 100 courts in Orlando were not constructed with any sort of roof/bubble availability...then they could have every national tourney in one place any time they want, and they wouldn't have to run around negotiating with all these other towns/facilities, and they wouldn't have to piece-meal a contingency plan...good grief...

I dont know for sure, but I am assuming indoor courts cost significantly more money to maintain then outdoor courts. You have the original cost of setting up the bubble etc etc. Then you need lights, if its a bubble, a way to keep it inflated, and Orlando gets HOT. I assuming the cost to cool the bubble alone would be $$$$$. When its pretty sunny and warm most of the year, its probably not worth the money to build bubbles.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
Fact is USTA only cares about dues paying members because they are the ones going to and watching tournaments. The USTA isn't gonna spend any more money than they have to on League events. They gross $18 million/year off of dues. They gross $234 million/year on pro tournaments. They really don't need to do anything for league players becuase that's not where the money is.
 
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BallBag

Professional
The national campus has 6 permanent structure indoor courts and a bunch har-tru so playing in light rain is not catastrophic.
 
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