Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Sep 17, 2012.
The comments that have survived regarding Hoad's physical strength indicate that he would be a standout athlete in today's tennis world.
His weight lifting regime would overwhelm any player today.
There was an account of how he once lifted a chair by its front legs with a man still seated in it. I cannot see anyone around today capable of that.
Gonzales stated that Hoad's physical strength was his primary asset, "He was such a strong son of a b*******, if he wanted to win, you couldn't beat him."
Not Vines Kramer and Gonzo. Only saw film of Vines and Budge saw the other 2
If I understand your post, you saw Kramer and Gonzalez play live. Wow! Lucky you! You must be older than BobbyOne! Did you see them play each other?
I have seen Gonzalez hit with Mr. Peanut. (No joke.)
74 No Kramer V Segura Gonzo many times on their barnstorming tour
chrisb, Ever heard about Harry Hopman?
ARFED, The times of Renshaw, Wilding and even Tilden had relative weak fields while after WW2 had already strong fields.
Tennis does not increase on the top with every decade. Otherwise old players of one generation would not be able to cope with the following generation. Laver and Rosewall could match Newcombe and partly Borg/Connors, Connors was able to cope with Agassi, and so on. Nowadays old Federer dominates the younger players.
chrisb, Admirable. You must have been a child. At that age I did not already how a tennis ball looks like...
Of course he worked at PW Tennis Academy on Long Island, learned a lot from him. He was the reason we had so many Aussie stars in that time period. Now as to what I said. They would sometimes go split squad as they called it, going to 2 different tournys at the same time Harry could only be at 1 site, and when the cat is away the mice will play. Understand my gist
My friends Dad was a teaching pro, I went along for the ride
Did you live on Long Island Chris?
chrisb, The best players were the pros. You refer to the amateurs. Some amateurs might have been under-trained (f.e. old Drobny) but the pros were in good shape. Their best practice was a heavy schedule of matches. They played much more than the current players do.
A minor point: Please write "tourney".
The process that i am tlaking about does not take place from one generation to another. The leap in quality it`s not that fast generally. It takes several decades like from the 20`s to the 60`s. There is a noticeable increase in the pool of talent, quali
The leap in quality of play does not happen that fast, like from one generation to the next (roughly a decade), it takes usually several decades for the changes to be noticeable. This apply to all the sports generally.
Why Tilden dominated a weak field and Gonzalez a strong one? Because you say so? Did you watch tennis in the early twenties? You didn`t even watch tennis in the 50`s.
BTW i agree with you, Tilden dominated over a weak field in his era when we compare that era to the one Gonzalez or Rosewall played in. By the same token i also think that the field these last 2 dominated is also abismally inferior to the one that Sampras reigned upon.
I am not implying that Federer is a superior athlete per se when comparing him to Laver for instance. I am well aware of the differences in training regimes, nutrition, medical treatments, etc. All i am saying is that Federer (or Djokovic, Nadal, etc) had to impose himself over a superior field (the numbers back this up, i am sorry but there is no 2 ways around that), chances are that he is the superior player. Chances being the operative word here, nothing is for sure.
I have talked to several coaches and trainers (football, rugby, tennis, basketball), many have more than 30 years of experience on their fields and the answer is almost always the same. The pool of talent from where to pick the next talents has never been bigger and it never cease to increase. Keep in mind that i am only talking about Argentina here, wouldn`t know if this trend applies to every country but i am willing to bet that this is the case in majority of them.
Segura too? Wow! That's an enviable privilege. But, I'm not sure you are older than BobbyOne. He's older than Methuselah.
ARFED, Look at Hoad's playing arm and compare it with Federer's. That says it all.
It's common sense that the 1920's had weaker fields than the 1950's. In the latter time six giants of tennis played each other in the same (pro) group.
Yup and took the Aussies to the OBI
I live on Long Island also. Played at the Port Washington Tennis Academy a number of times. Ever play at the Carefree Racquet Club or Christopher Morley?
Limpin, Thanks for this honourable comparison with a "star" of the Bible who did not have dementia.
I'm not so sure regarding your extreme age as you have forgotten since more than a year that it's your duty in a serious forum to apologize for a rather mean and primitive lie (and to retract your other lies about me and to correct your silly numbers of Laver's majors)...
Some poster actually thought I saw Bill Tilden play. Maybe by Time Machine someday. LOL.
I think I hit the ball pretty well for a guy who saw Bill Tilden.
You mean the indoor courts in CM, yup with my son who lives in Port. Also a couple of times at Carefree. Live in Suffolk
I live in Nassau county. Carefree has had the rep of being the best indoor club on Long Island. What's your favorite indoor club in Suffolk?
I teach so I really don`t play too much in Suffolk. Play a lot in PW. Clubs not too good in Suffolk I guess KP has the best Rep. Don`t play three though
In my view, Hoad's greatest asset on the tennis court was his balance, timing, and eye-hand coordination. Physical upper body strength provides a minor benenfit at best.
Common sense? Come on now Bobby, surely you can come up with a better argument than that. Something that is asserted without evidence can be disproven without evidence. Anyway, let`s just keep it civil, at least for this time, and agree to disagree on this issue.
Back again Dan i read a story many years about Lew Hoad at a hotel in Paris where the Australian players were staying, there was trouble out the front with a couple of chaps , so Lew flatterned both of them . TW
So true, Bobby. Again and again we have seen aging ATGs play very well against the youngest players coming up.
Equipment is throwing off all discussions. Right now you will hear today's players criticized as well as praised for the play style, as if somehow it is still possible to serve and volley in 2017 the way it was done int 1967, or it should have been possible for Laver and Co. to regularly hit rifle shots, as they do today, using only wood and gut.
Of course there is at least one member here who will tell us that players in the 60s served as fast and hit groundstrokes as fast, on a regular basis, as modern players.
Everyone playing tennis today is pampered compared to the top pros on the tour in the 50s and 60s, before Open tennis. There is a reason why they dominated Open tennis so much - they were tough. They had to play everywhere, in any weather, any surface. They often played sick or injured. No excuses back then. You got paid, you played...
That is consistent with other stories I have read...in school, he flattened a school bully.
ARFED, I only react harshly after having been attacked. And I was not uncivilized this time at all. It was you who got personally ("because you say so?").
It's your right to not believe that common sense in this case is right but it's my right to believe that that common sense is right. Even a poster who hates me (since 2014) and who is a Tilden admirer always agreed that Tilden had a weaker opposition than Gonzalez or Laver.
Gary, Thanks. Let's look at the almost endless careers of Tilden, Gonzalez and Rosewall who succeeded against two or even three younger generations.
Bobby, i didn`t say that you were uncivilized nor did i say that your response was harsh. Thing is that "common sense" was never a valid response in the history of debates and you now this.
BTW i will be travelling to the Trentino next week to visit my cousins, so i will make the trip to Salzburg of which they told me it is beautiful. You are more than welcome to join me if you are nearby and discuss, over some coffee and biscuits, about the respective strenght of Rosewall`s and Federer`s field.
I generally agree but I think we have to consider the place of tennis in the sporting hierarchy, at least for recent history. Because of the tennis boom in the 70's there may be a higher number of top athletes born in the 70's and 80's who took up tennis instead of other sports compared with those born in the 90's for example.
Just quickly regarding field strength of the 20's v the 50's. An old, famous coach, Mercer Beasley, ranked Tilden as the best ever for a long time but in the early 60's changed his mind to Gonzalez, partly because he felt the competition was stronger (and also because of the "big game").
50s and 60?????? The pros had to barnstorm to stay alive. Wimbledon saw the future and had a pro tourny on their hallowed grounds I believe in 67. They drew so well that they opened The Championships to the pros in 68. Those pros for the most part were not as good as todays pros. The training off court is so much better today that you are watching superior play today not seen in that era. To be fair to older players , who were the best of their time greatness should be simply done by eras, not in totality. Could Tilden beat Fed. The 20s Big Bill would get killed by the 2017 Federer. And it is really stretching trying to anticipate that Tildon would have been able to do the training required of todays players
No one can tell of course but ARFED is correct in discussions about the pool of talent. The bigger the amount of players the better chance for a gifted talent or many gifted talents.
I've always wondered about musical prodigies, math, chess and tennis prodigies. I am curious whether the person with the great talent in that area may have never been exposed to music chess or tennis so they didn't have a chance to be great.
ARFED, You began with an unfriendly question ("Because you say it?") and you plead for civilized discussion without reason (I was not uncivilized).
Common sense can be right in some cases and can be wrong in other cases. In the Tilden/Gonzalez case it's right: Pancho had to play five giants of tennis at the same time while Tilden did not.
Yes, Some people say that Salzburg is the most beautiful city at all (it might not be my own opinion).
Thanks for your offer but I'm glad we are far from each other for good reason (I refer to your old threat)...
chrisb, The current and recent players are playing faster mostly because of modern technology. A great player would succeed in any era.
A couple of New
The respective strength of Rosewall's and Federer's competition is a very interesting subject.
Naaa Bobby, don`t be affraid, i wouldn`t touch you. I don`t know if what you have is contagious
It would have been nice if you both could meet.
Yes i would agree with that comment i do not think the players today are any fitter and stronger than the players of the 50s and 60s, when you look at Hoad and Conzales in a match in Melbourne Jn 1958 that went 80 games Conzales said later when he changed ends half way though the 4th set he thought Hoad had just started the match and it was 95 degrees fah,i know Dan will like that .Cheers TW
Todays players are using better tech , they have advanced training methods too. Todays game is much more physical. Could 5 9 Laver hit the 125 serve today? Guess we will never know
You are kidding right. I can run down 50 mph groundies easier then 80mph groundies. The swing speeds today require much more effort then the mostly arm swings of the 50s and 60s. I don`t think todays players drink and smoke as much as the guys did then. And I know they did.
ARFED, You and your supporters suffer from a bad illness: stupidity and senseless agression!
No not kidding i have seen the players from the 50s and 60s Conzales, Hoad ,Laver etc and the moderns Federer and co.both Conzales and Hoad could serve 120 mph with old wooden racquets what would they do with the racquets today.cheers TW
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