Lighter frame + lead vs. heavier frame + no lead

S

Slapper

Semi-Pro
Some manufacturers now offer the same frame in different static weights. And in some cases, the static weight, swingweight and twistweight are the only specs that are much different between the different versions. For example, the Yonex Vcore Pro 97 is offered in 290g, 310g and 330g. The 310g and 330g versions are all but identical in every other spec, aside from swingweight and twistweight.

So, I would like to know what is the difference between a heavier frame in stock form, and a lighter frame of the same model that is weighted up to the exact same spec (static weight, balance, swingweight and twistweight) as the heavier frame. Are there any differences that can be felt during play? Should the heavier frame in stock form feel more ‘solid’ since it has more weight in graphite (or whatever other materials are used in constructing the frame)?

I am particularly keen to hear from anyone who has done controlled experiments to test this. By controlled, I mean same same model, same specs or at least very close, same string, same tension, tested side by side.

Thanks in advance.
 
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I am afraid, no universal rule.

I have Dunlop 300 Lite. After adding weight to it, it plays much better than the regular 300, 300 Tour, Bio, 4D, 200. It is better than all of them.
Same goes for Volkl DNX 10 295g. Much better than the regular 325 g version.

On the other hand, I have Wilson PS97L, and -- even with lead and everything -- it plays noticeably worse than the regular PS97.
And the still heavier version from this -- RF97A -- plays even better ( but only for a short period of time :( ).
 
Tennisist said:
I am afraid, no universal rule.

I have Dunlop 300 Lite. After adding weight to it, it plays much better than the regular 300, 300 Tour, Bio, 4D, 200. It is better than all of them.
Same goes for Volkl DNX 10 295g. Much better than the regular 325 g version.

On the other hand, I have Wilson PS97L, and -- even with lead and everything -- it plays noticeably worse than the regular PS97.
And the still heavier version from this -- RF97A -- plays even better ( but only for a short period of time :( ).
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.

Just to clarify: when you did these tests, were the light rackets weighted up to the same spec as the heavier racket, or a different spec?
 
I believe it depends on the manufacturer but I'll share my knowledge of fischer/pacific. Their most popular frame (the Fischer M pro 98 mold or Pacific X Force mold) was always offered in two weights. The SL or Pro version would weight 320g, the UL or standard X Force weights 295g. The ONLY difference between the frames is a significant amount of weight added to the handle of the pro (at about 7"). Otherwise the same mold, hoop etc. I can't speak to other brands, it seems like Head and possibly Wilson mess around with the different versions a bit more.
 
dave t said:
I believe it depends on the manufacturer but I'll share my knowledge of fischer/pacific. Their most popular frame (the Fischer M pro 98 mold or Pacific X Force mold) was always offered in two weights. The SL or Pro version would weight 320g, the UL or standard X Force weights 295g. The ONLY difference between the frames is a significant amount of weight added to the handle of the pro (at about 7"). Otherwise the same mold, hoop etc. I can't speak to other brands, it seems like Head and possibly Wilson mess around with the different versions a bit more.
Click to expand...

OK. But how did they compare during play when the lighter one was weighted to the same spec as the heavier one?
 
I can't compare directly as I ended up going to a different spec. I preferred the lighter one that I modified to have a heavier swingweight (UL/X Force version) vs the heavier racquet with lighter swingweight (stock SL/X Force Pro version). I think my specs ended up around 335g/330 SW for lighter one and the stock pro version was more like 340g/318 SW.
 
That a really good question but not easy to answer... the racquet manufactures "claim" to have the same spec but they hardly do. The result will be a hit or miss. If you lead up 2 light frames and compare it to 2 heavy frames after the test you might like 1 of the light and 1 of the heaviest.
 
Twistweight values:

Yonex VCORE Pro 97 (310) 13.49
Yonex VCORE Pro 97 (330) 14.23

PacificX Force Lite 10.31
Pacific X Force Pro 11.08

Yes as you've said in many cases the heavier are more stable and solid.



 
Simplicius said:
Twistweight values:

Yonex VCORE Pro 97 (310) 13.49
Yonex VCORE Pro 97 (330) 14.23

PacificX Force Lite 10.31
Pacific X Force Pro 11.08

Yes as you've said in many cases the heavier are more stable and solid.



Click to expand...

Ah, yes. I forgot about twistweight (I’ve edited my OP accordingly to avoid confusion). However, I assume that the twistweights would usually be fairly close, or at least closer, after the lighter frame is weighted up to the same spec as the heavier frame.
 
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This question is easy to answer. A light frame with lead tape added to the right places feels and plays much better.

I like weight concentrated in the upper handle and upper hoop. For a given mass/balance/swingweight, the lighter you can make the lower half of the hoop and upper part of the fork, the better the frame will feel. As far as what part of the upper hoop to add weight? It depends - more weight lower near 3 and 9 will feel more flexible and spinny than more weight toward 12 (which will feel stiffer and crisper but less spinny), assuming mass, balance, and swingweight are the same.
 
Tennisist said:
I am afraid, no universal rule.

I have Dunlop 300 Lite. After adding weight to it, it plays much better than the regular 300, 300 Tour, Bio, 4D, 200. It is better than all of them.
Same goes for Volkl DNX 10 295g. Much better than the regular 325 g version.

On the other hand, I have Wilson PS97L, and -- even with lead and everything -- it plays noticeably worse than the regular PS97.
And the still heavier version from this -- RF97A -- plays even better ( but only for a short period of time :( ).
Click to expand...

@Tennisist - RF97A - only plays better for short period of time.

What do you mean by this? Fatigue due to heavy weight?
 
IowaGuy said:
What do you mean by this? Fatigue due to heavy weight?
Click to expand...
Yes, heavy frames like RF97 play great but are very demanding on the arm. I can play with the Prostaff 97 for 2-3 hours without any problem but with the RF97 the fatigue kicks in around the 40 minutes mark.
 
You have to pay attention to one parameter -- Swingweight. It is very important.
Many of the "lite" racquets have the same swingweight as the heavy ones! So, if you are buying a lighter racquet hoping for customization, you will be disappointed. In this case, from the start, they already swing about the same. The heavier one will feel substantially better due to its weight distribution. Once you start adding weight to the light racquet, you will make matters worse: it will become slower and harder to play with ( considering you buying racquets in your correct SW range ). You may only get some dampening -- very marginal improvement.

A light racquet -- with a much lower swingweight to begin with -- is a much better choice. Then you can place weight in the head in the right place for you, and you can inject silicone into the handle -- to achieve significant dampening. Now you end up with a superior racquet: same swingweight, but much more powerful / spinny shots + much better dampening. Such a setup will definitely feel and play superior.
 
Tennisist said:
You have to pay attention to one parameter -- Swingweight. It is very important.
Many of the "lite" racquets have the same swingweight as the heavy ones! So, if you are buying a lighter racquet hoping for customization, you will be disappointed. In this case, from the start, they already swing about the same. The heavier one will feel substantially better due to its weight distribution. Once you start adding weight to the light racquet, you will make matters worse: it will become slower and harder to play with ( considering you buying racquets in your correct SW range ). You may only get some dampening -- very marginal improvement.

A light racquet -- with a much lower swingweight to begin with -- is a much better choice. Then you can place weight in the head in the right place for you, and you can inject silicone into the handle -- to achieve significant dampening. Now you end up with a superior racquet: same swingweight, but much more powerful / spinny shots + much better dampening. Such a setup will definitely feel and play superior.
Click to expand...

To clarify, I am asking about frames of the same model that are offered in different static weights, not different models altogether. From what I’ve seen, when manufacturers offer the same model in different static weights, the lighter frames always have lower swing weights as well. This is the case for the example I gave, the Yonex Vcore Pro 97.

I’ve updated my OP to be more clear about what I’m asking.
 
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Which way you want to go depends on your individual situation. I use a C10 with a leather grip which makes the racquet weigh close to 360 grams and it's easy to get there. In my situation I don't think I'd like to buy a 280g racquet and customise it to emulate that, maybe a 320g racquet is OK. You have to remember that if you own say 3 or 4 frames you have to do all of them so that's a lot of lead and leather grips you need to get.
On special circumstance, if you find a light frame you really like because of the feel and flex it has over a heavier version then maybe one can justify aggressively customising their frame. This is something I was observing with play TW play tester Troy with his Dunlop Srixon which was aggressively customised but of late he has gone to the Yonex V Pro 330 which is much closer to his preferred spec.
Personally I'd like to see the racquet companies make heavier racquets in the first place. There should be a Dunlop Srixon available in a 325 or 330g weight and in a grip 5.
 
Imho lead on the hoop makes racquets to feel and play stiffer than their RA indicates.
That's the only reason which I prefer the original heaviers as I like them.
And possibly that's why almost all pro stocks have RA less than 63-64.
(Note: That's my personal opinion. I can't prove it in a lab. You don't have to agree with it).
 
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Assuming you can match the specs, it doesn't matter (though one might look better depending on if you can hide the lead or not). The thing is, not all lighter version of rackets can be modded to be the same as the heavier model.

However, the difference in owning the two is that one is far easier to match than the other (since quality control of the specs is an issue). It's easier to match a lighter frame to a heavier spec than it is to match similar spec rackets to another racket of the same model (because some will be overweight in the head, and there is nothing you can do about it other than sell it or match all your rackets to that racket). Alternatively, if you're going for a higher spec regardless, you'd probably choose the one closer in specs to what you want but with enough margin that you can correct for quality control errors. Less lead, less work, easier to hide.

If you inject silicone in the handle though, many people will say that it changes the feel. I haven't played with one so I can't confirm it, but I don't doubt it.
 
I was using a DR98. Great racket and wanted something with a bit more spin, similar levels of comfort and more room for customisation.

The Ezone Lite has a softer frame (64 vs 68) than the rest of the Ezone 100 series.
It also had a 16x18 string pattern so it fit the bill.

I posted a thread on this setup a few months back: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/yonex-ezone-lite-great-for-customisation.620230/

I have customised the Ezone Lite as follows:

Final Specs: (before - after)
Weight (strung) - 286g > 340g (12.0oz)
Balance: 34.0 > 31.9cm
Swingweight: 295 > 333
Recoil weight: 132 > 172 (high)
MgR/I: 20.7 > 20.62 If you believe in it, around 21 is recommended but 20.6 feels good to me so I'm probably just a crap tennis player. This required 3g of lead at 20cm on the handle.

I have since changed the specs slightly by adding more lead @20cm increasing static weight to 345 which increased the MgR/I to about 20.8.

I seems to play above average in all areas which is rare and a benefit of having plenty of room for customisation. It has spin and power without being a rocket launcher or stiff, and touch and control are there also. I mean volleys are not quite as good as the DR98, but they're better than any other racket that I own.

I also don't get tennis elbow with this setup. I think there are a few reasons (but I'm only speculating) including increased twist weight with lead at 3 & 9; Wilson shock shield grip which has gel and is extremely soft but heavy (but I had plenty of room to customise weight); more open string pattern is also easier on the arm (all else being equal).
 
I like lighter frames. QC being what it is, you can get your setup to your spec & have a better chance to closely match up my frames.
 
Most "pro-stock" frames have a weight of around 230-250 grams before they are sent for customization. If you just add pallets, grip and bumpers to it they are same weight as a normal "lite" frame. When pro-frames are customized, the most normal procedure is to add either a leathergrip and silicone or just silicone inside the handle and then lead from 10 to 2. Some frames and players have lead (like Novak for example) at 7 to 11 and 1 to 5 on the frame or other positions depending where you want the stability and swingweight. Some players add lead to the hoop of the frame and some add lead under the grip.

The main thing with pro-stock frames are the dampened feel that you get with loads of silicone. Its like a gigantic vibra-killer. And the lead in combo makes the racquets very polarized and you get a solid, heavy feel when striking the ball.

I have ordered a new Pure Drive Lite (270 grams unstrung, 33 cm balance and a pretty low SW of 300) that will be customized to 320 grams, 31,5 cm balance and SW of 325. I will need a massive 39 grams of weight inside the handle (or leather and silicone) and 11 grams of lead at 10 and 2 on the frame. It might make the frame extremely dampened so i might add leathergrip so i dont need such massive amount of silicone. Its also possible to add lead-weights into the silicone.

Will update with info and feedback after the projekt is ready
 
Hankenstein said:
Most "pro-stock" frames have a weight of around 230-250 grams before they are sent for customization. If you just add pallets, grip and bumpers to it they are same weight as a normal "lite" frame. When pro-frames are customized, the most normal procedure is to add either a leathergrip and silicone or just silicone inside the handle and then lead from 10 to 2. Some frames and players have lead (like Novak for example) at 7 to 11 and 1 to 5 on the frame or other positions depending where you want the stability and swingweight. Some players add lead to the hoop of the frame and some add lead under the grip.

The main thing with pro-stock frames are the dampened feel that you get with loads of silicone. Its like a gigantic vibra-killer. And the lead in combo makes the racquets very polarized and you get a solid, heavy feel when striking the ball.

I have ordered a new Pure Drive Lite (270 grams unstrung, 33 cm balance and a pretty low SW of 300) that will be customized to 320 grams, 31,5 cm balance and SW of 325. I will need a massive 39 grams of weight inside the handle (or leather and silicone) and 11 grams of lead at 10 and 2 on the frame. It might make the frame extremely dampened so i might add leathergrip so i dont need such massive amount of silicone. Its also possible to add lead-weights into the silicone.

Will update with info and feedback after the projekt is ready
Click to expand...
I am using a Wilson Shock Shield Gel grip that helps a lot with my TE problems.

The catch is that it is difficult to feel the bevels.

I am wondering if using a grip with less cushioning and putting silicon in the handle will have the same effect on shock absorption while improving the feel of the bevels?

The shoch shield grip is much heavier than a regular grip and I have plenty of room to play around with weight anyhow.
 
I have both the 310 and the 330 vcore pro 97. I think it's safe to say that the 330 is an extension of the 310g. The major difference is that the 310 is a bit more maneuverable and the 330 more stable. If you hit with one and then the other the feel is the same, within reason.

However, you have to consider that when you're modding up a lighter frame, you're adding different materials to the mix. Lead and Silicone will dampen the feel of any frame and change the feel from the stringbed. I don't modify frames anymore and have landed in the Yonex camp because of the (usually) higher qc and consistency but I remember playing with two matched Wilson Six.One 95 (the one right after the K95) that started out almost 20g apart with drastically different swing weights to the extent that I thought it was a botched paint job like the k90s of ye olde. While the matched ones swung the same b/c they had the same balance and SW, they definitely did not play the same. The more heavily modded one had a higher sweet spot and more muted feel.
 
alidisperanza said:
I have both the 310 and the 330 vcore pro 97. I think it's safe to say that the 330 is an extension of the 310g. The major difference is that the 310 is a bit more maneuverable and the 330 more stable. If you hit with one and then the other the feel is the same, within reason.

However, you have to consider that when you're modding up a lighter frame, you're adding different materials to the mix. Lead and Silicone will dampen the feel of any frame and change the feel from the stringbed. I don't modify frames anymore and have landed in the Yonex camp because of the (usually) higher qc and consistency but I remember playing with two matched Wilson Six.One 95 (the one right after the K95) that started out almost 20g apart with drastically different swing weights to the extent that I thought it was a botched paint job like the k90s of ye olde. While the matched ones swung the same b/c they had the same balance and SW, they definitely did not play the same. The more heavily modded one had a higher sweet spot and more muted feel.
Click to expand...


Measured my 310s fresh strung today w/ Yonex grap 330.9g and 331.9g. Not baaaaad.
 
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