Linesperson made close calls in Cincinnati too

svijk

Semi-Pro
When I was in Cincinnati for the Masters, the linesperson (Serena match) called the lines in most matches.

She called several footfaults there which raised eyebrows from the players. At the Grandstand court where there is no hawk-eye, there were numerous close calls.

Its hard to say she is wrong but I think she has that strict school teacher attitude. In big moments like the GS, its best to let the payers play....over officiating kills the game!!
 
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katarddx

Semi-Pro
rules? just maybe? how about not calling out if is not more than a 2 inches out? best to let players play the game? wht game? tennis has never been in this deep... people watching tennis to see "hot chicks"... that tennis?
 

Casticus

New User
When I was in Cincinnati for the Masters, the linesperson (Serena match) called the lines in most matches.

She called several footfaults there which raised eyebrows from the players. At the Grandstand court where there is no hawk-eye, there were numerous close calls.

Its hard to say she is wrong but I think she has that strict school teacher attitude. In big moments like the GS, its best to let the payers play....over officiating kills the game!!


Yeah, what let? That ball barely touched the net, play it!

That's like saying that during the last minute of a football match, having just 1 leg be touching the ground as you catch the football and go out of bounds is fine. Or if you like soccer, during the last minute of the soccer match no offsides! Or during basketball no time clock in the last minute!
 

svijk

Semi-Pro
Yeah, what let? That ball barely touched the net, play it!

That's like saying that during the last minute of a football match, having just 1 leg be touching the ground as you catch the football and go out of bounds is fine. Or if you like soccer, during the last minute of the soccer match no offsides! Or during basketball no time clock in the last minute!

I get your point but even during football games during the last minute....refs are not so strict on pass interference/ holding etc......in soccer they do not call shirt tugging in penalty area......in basketball too unless it is blatant in the final refs just let the players settle it.

Its in that vein for tennis too
 

Viper

Professional
I get your point but even during football games during the last minute....refs are not so strict on pass interference/ holding etc......in soccer they do not call shirt tugging in penalty area......in basketball too unless it is blatant in the final refs just let the players settle it.

Its in that vein for tennis too


Exactly, so Serena should have talked to the chair umpire who probably would have redone the point, but instead she decided to threaten someone enforcing the sports rules.
 

kevvycore

Rookie
ive got it! in GS since those are the only tournaments that count. in the last game of each set no rules are enforced and the players just play jungle ball to win the game. only rule that is enforced is to lose the ball has to stop bouncing.
that would be perfect cuz since some rules should not be applied but others should why not just do it across the board and throw them all out!
 
Yeah, what let? That ball barely touched the net, play it!

That's like saying that during the last minute of a football match, having just 1 leg be touching the ground as you catch the football and go out of bounds is fine. Or if you like soccer, during the last minute of the soccer match no offsides! Or during basketball no time clock in the last minute!

First, a let allows the server another serve, so there's no comparison. In football, those things can be reviewed.

With the footfault there is NO oversight, no review, no overrule by the chair.

You know there are differences between apples and oranges right?
 

HellBunni

Rookie
I get your point but even during football games during the last minute....refs are not so strict on pass interference/ holding etc......in soccer they do not call shirt tugging in penalty area......in basketball too unless it is blatant in the final refs just let the players settle it.

Its in that vein for tennis too

your example is a fail.
because those things you mentioned have interpretation involved. Meaning the empire has to interpret the action and determine if a foul should be called.

tennis foot fault and line calls are NOT interpretation. The ball either touched the line or it didn't. The foot either crossed the line or it didn't. If you see it clearly and you are sure, then it's a call. There is no interpretation involved.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
AR15 (interesting screen name BTW) is right.

"a little foot fault" is like being "a little pregnant".

It's one of those things that either "is" or "isn't", and not a judgement call or one where a linesperson has discretion.

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Tennis Fan

Rookie
If this particular lineswoman has a past history of making questionable calls, she's either being vindictive or too strict w/ her calls. She needs to be fired from being a linesperson.

Whichever association is in charge of hiring & the continual employment of these linespeople, chair umpires, judges, etc. should keep notes/records of employees who have a continuous habit of calling out mistakingly or unnecessarily, etc. because then it's getting to be an ISSUE w/ those employees (who have the habit of making calls in error).
 

HellBunni

Rookie
If this particular lineswoman has a past history of making questionable calls, she's either being vindictive or too strict w/ her calls. She needs to be fired from being a linesperson.

there are no questionable calls by linesmen in tennis. There are only mistaken calls. There is no such thing as being too strict, she is just following the rules.
actually they should fire all those that aren't "too strict", what's the point of refees that don't follow the rule of the game and make their own.

if she constantly makes wrong (mistaken) calls, and there is statistics to prove that, then yes, she should be fired.
 

paulorenzo

Hall of Fame
rules? who needs rules? they're just so, limiting. tennis should just be a free-for all of who can shove the most balls down people's throats.

c'mon, i've lost all respect for serena after i've heard that. regardless of the situation, there is no need to be so vulgar, and graphic, to an official who is only doing his/her job.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
If this particular lineswoman has a past history of making questionable calls, she's either being vindictive or too strict w/ her calls. She needs to be fired from being a linesperson.

Whichever association is in charge of hiring & the continual employment of these linespeople, chair umpires, judges, etc. should keep notes/records of employees who have a continuous habit of calling out mistakingly or unnecessarily, etc. because then it's getting to be an ISSUE w/ those employees (who have the habit of making calls in error).

No problem if someone can PROVE her calls are chronically incorrect.

But "too strict"? Sorry, again, it IS or it ISN'T.

and what are you basing your assessment of this linesperson on?

Serena's reaction on the court? Her post match presser? (where at least anecdotally Sereans proves herself wrong, disingenuous or worse)

Killing the messenger is easy. Who's at fault here? At least 3X.

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Steady Eddy

Legend
Many people here sound like they think tennis is a math theorem complete with lemmas, axioms, postulates, and conjectures. It's a sport, and a sport run by people, we can run it as we see fit. Does "rules are rules" thinking get you somewhere? Will it get you a reward in heaven from some logic tennis god? Foot faults in the early part of a match can serve as a warning to a player, but they can't accomplish this near the end of the match. A serve from a few millimeters closer won't make it get there significantly sooner, so it makes no difference to the receiver. The players want it played out, so do the fans. So letting them play is win-win-win. But you say all that goes out the window so some some non-human, non-feeling rules god can be appeased. Why?
 

gameboy

Hall of Fame
If it is such a bright BLACK/WHITE call where there is no room for "interpretation" or "judgement call", then just get rid of the line judge and let the machines call the footfaults.

The reason why they are not using the machines to make the call is because they want to give the line judges some latitude with delicate situations like last night.

The lines lady threw herself in the middle of the US Open championship story line. Whenever the referee becomes the main story, that referee has failed.
 

paulorenzo

Hall of Fame
If it is such a bright BLACK/WHITE call where there is no room for "interpretation" or "judgement call", then just get rid of the line judge and let the machines call the footfaults.

The reason why they are not using the machines to make the call is because they want to give the line judges some latitude with delicate situations like last night.

The lines lady threw herself in the middle of the US Open championship story line. Whenever the referee becomes the main story, that referee has failed.

serena's foot failed. lineslady just called it. serena's lack of poise and delicate word choice heightened the situation to a point penalty from the tournament referee. simple.
 
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Mad dog

New User
The lines lady threw herself in the middle of the US Open championship story line. Whenever the referee becomes the main story, that referee has failed.

Don't agree at all - tennis' problem is that chair umpires and referees refuse to enforce rules, stay in the background, and avoid getting players angry.
Case in point: in last night's match, the chair umpire could certainly hear exactly what Serena was yelling the the lineswoman, but pretended to ignore it and not issue a penalty point. She waited for the lineswoman to approach the chair and be the "bad guy." That's BS.
 
Many people here sound like they think tennis is a math theorem complete with lemmas, axioms, postulates, and conjectures. It's a sport, and a sport run by people, we can run it as we see fit. Does "rules are rules" thinking get you somewhere? Will it get you a reward in heaven from some logic tennis god? Foot faults in the early part of a match can serve as a warning to a player, but they can't accomplish this near the end of the match. A serve from a few millimeters closer won't make it get there significantly sooner, so it makes no difference to the receiver. The players want it played out, so do the fans. So letting them play is win-win-win. But you say all that goes out the window so some some non-human, non-feeling rules god can be appeased. Why?

This argument wins in my book.
 

gameboy

Hall of Fame
Then tell me why we are not using the machines for the footfault. There would be no arguments about the footfault at that point. Why introduce human error?
 

gameboy

Hall of Fame
Don't agree at all - tennis' problem is that chair umpires and referees refuse to enforce rules, stay in the background, and avoid getting players angry.
Case in point: in last night's match, the chair umpire could certainly hear exactly what Serena was yelling the the lineswoman, but pretended to ignore it and not issue a penalty point. She waited for the lineswoman to approach the chair and be the "bad guy." That's BS.

I totally agree that the chair ump dropped the ball. She should have OVER RULED the lines judge and let Serena replay the second serve.

If that happened, no one would be talking about the "incident" today.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Then tell me why we are not using the machines for the footfault. There would be no arguments about the footfault at that point. Why introduce human error?

I totally agree that the chair ump dropped the ball. She should have OVER RULED the lines judge and let Serena replay the second serve.

If that happened, no one would be talking about the "incident" today.

Wow. Why? No one can say the linesperson was WRONG.

Firstly the chair can ONLY over rule if the call is obviously incorrect. The replay angle provided by CBS is inconclusive either way, not one way.

Secondly, "machines" were introduced because due to distance, ball speed and/or linespeople having their view blocked they were deemed necessary.

A foot fault doesn't fall under that criteria.

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Mad dog

New User
I totally agree that the chair ump dropped the ball. She should have OVER RULED the lines judge and let Serena replay the second serve.

If that happened, no one would be talking about the "incident" today.

You may have a point - maybe that should have been done.
I was just reponding to your post about tennis referees and umpires not being the "main story.
I referee/umpire football, basketball, softball, and tennis. In those other sports, we are trained and tested to be strong and consistent with our calls to participants. When we are strong with enforcement, participants can then adjust to us and hopefully we can be in the "background."
Pro tennis always has the fear of getting players angry, and the players know it. Good god, the tournament referee gave the point penalty news to Serena as if he was a doctor telling her she had cancer!
 

kendall22

Rookie
>> I totally agree that the chair ump dropped the ball. She should have OVER RULED the lines judge and let Serena replay the second serve.

You're crazy- what grounds would she have had to do that? "The players should determine the outcome?" This call isn't even reviewable. Calls stand unless there is clear evidence of otherwise.
 

goober

Legend
If this particular lineswoman has a past history of making questionable calls, she's either being vindictive or too strict w/ her calls. She needs to be fired from being a linesperson.

Whichever association is in charge of hiring & the continual employment of these linespeople, chair umpires, judges, etc. should keep notes/records of employees who have a continuous habit of calling out mistakingly or unnecessarily, etc. because then it's getting to be an ISSUE w/ those employees (who have the habit of making calls in error).

According to the umpires on this board that have done slam events, if this woman was doing the US Open semis, she was considered one of the better linespersons and has undoubtedly an exemplary record.
 

Inner Game

Semi-Pro
Close calls? I'd say there the right calls......and if Serena would have just closed her big mouth and played all these threads wouldn't be needed....Clister's had her number yesterday
 

Fee

Legend
When I was in Cincinnati for the Masters, the linesperson (Serena match) called the lines in most matches.

It is not physically possible for a linesperson to call the lines 'in most matches'. They are on a schedule, they are only allowed to call a certain number of games (or period of time or whatever it is) before they are rotated out for another crew, much like the ball kids. I'm sure she worked no more and no less than any other linesperson at that event.
 

Fee

Legend
Don't agree at all - tennis' problem is that chair umpires and referees refuse to enforce rules, stay in the background, and avoid getting players angry.
Case in point: in last night's match, the chair umpire could certainly hear exactly what Serena was yelling the the lineswoman, but pretended to ignore it and not issue a penalty point. She waited for the lineswoman to approach the chair and be the "bad guy." That's BS.

No she didn't, watch the replay. The lineswoman made the call and sat stoically while Serena shouted abuse at her. She did not move from her spot until the chair umpire called her over to report what Serena had said. When Serena shouted at her the second time, the chair umpire called her back the second time. Brian Earley had already been called, that's why he arrived at the chair roughly the same time Serena did.

Whether or not the call was valid (and I believe it was), Serena made the mistake of ever turning to face the lineswoman in the first place. Players know that they are to direct their abuse towards the chair and NEVER to the linespeople.

The lineswoman did her job and she is being crucified here for it (including some very racist comments from one member of this forum). Serena is not a rookie, she's been on the tour for years, she should have known better, plain and simple.
 

svijk

Semi-Pro
It is not physically possible for a linesperson to call the lines 'in most matches'. They are on a schedule, they are only allowed to call a certain number of games (or period of time or whatever it is) before they are rotated out for another crew, much like the ball kids. I'm sure she worked no more and no less than any other linesperson at that event.

I am aware of that, i did not say she did full matches...smart alec
 
The lines lady threw herself in the middle of the US Open championship story line. Whenever the referee becomes the main story, that referee has failed.

Don't agree at all - tennis' problem is that chair umpires and referees refuse to enforce rules, stay in the background, and avoid getting players angry.
Case in point: in last night's match, the chair umpire could certainly hear exactly what Serena was yelling the the lineswoman, but pretended to ignore it and not issue a penalty point. She waited for the lineswoman to approach the chair and be the "bad guy." That's BS.
No she didn't, watch the replay. The lineswoman made the call and sat stoically while Serena shouted abuse at her. She did not move from her spot until the chair umpire called her over to report what Serena had said. When Serena shouted at her the second time, the chair umpire called her back the second time. Brian Earley had already been called, that's why he arrived at the chair roughly the same time Serena did.

Whether or not the call was valid (and I believe it was), Serena made the mistake of ever turning to face the lineswoman in the first place. Players know that they are to direct their abuse towards the chair and NEVER to the linespeople.

The lineswoman did her job and she is being crucified here for it (including some very racist comments from one member of this forum). Serena is not a rookie, she's been on the tour for years, she should have known better, plain and simple.

At least most posters here are tennis players and a few are knowledgeable about the rules of tennis. It's really bad reading the posts at ESPN.

I totally agree that the chair ump dropped the ball. She should have OVER RULED the lines judge and let Serena replay the second serve.

If that happened, no one would be talking about the "incident" today.

Did you ever think that maybe the chair didn't over rule because she saw the foot fault as well?
 

kabob

Hall of Fame
Exactly, so Serena should have talked to the chair umpire who probably would have redone the point, but instead she decided to threaten someone enforcing the sports rules.

That's just it, Serena couldn't do anything in that situation. You can't turn over a foot fault call and therein lies the problem. Once the line judge makes that call, it can't be turned over after further review.
 

Mad dog

New User
No she didn't, watch the replay. The lineswoman made the call and sat stoically while Serena shouted abuse at her. She did not move from her spot until the chair umpire called her over to report what Serena had said. When Serena shouted at her the second time, the chair umpire called her back the second time. Brian Earley had already been called, that's why he arrived at the chair roughly the same time Serena did.

Whether or not the call was valid (and I believe it was), Serena made the mistake of ever turning to face the lineswoman in the first place. Players know that they are to direct their abuse towards the chair and NEVER to the linespeople.

The chair umpire ran from her authority, and did not do her job. The moment she saw Serena approach the lineswoman, she should have invoked the "play must be continuous" rule and put her on the clock. When there are ballpersons present to retrieve balls, servers have 20 seconds between points. I would have announced "Miss Williams, you now have 15 seconds to serve...Miss Williams, you have 10 seconds to serve...and so on.
The chair umpire, by being so passive and allowing this delay to take place, gave Serena too long of a leash.
 

Fee

Legend
The chair umpire ran from her authority, and did not do her job. The moment she saw Serena approach the lineswoman, she should have invoked the "play must be continuous" rule and put her on the clock. When there are ballpersons present to retrieve balls, servers have 20 seconds between points. I would have announced "Miss Williams, you now have 15 seconds to serve...Miss Williams, you have 10 seconds to serve...and so on.
The chair umpire, by being so passive and allowing this delay to take place, gave Serena too long of a leash.

You make a very valid and interesting point about the time delay involved in Serena's tirade, one that I had not considered at all. But I've never heard of any chair umpire interrupting a player rant to remind them that they are on the clock and don't know if they are even allowed to do something like that. Serena had already been given a code violation for racquet abuse earlier in the match, so maybe she was beyond the privilege of a warning. If the chair addressed Serena for anything, it would be to give a second code violation, which would have led to the point penalty and the end of the match. Again, the responsibility was Serena's, she knew she was playing the match under a code warning, she had to stay in line or risk the point penalty on her next offense. She foolishly committed her next offense on match point.
 

svijk

Semi-Pro
No, but you implied that she was out there unusually often as if there was some scandal involved in it. Name calling = defensive.

I did not imply anything, you assumed it.....besides talking about linesperson schedules isn't the point of the thread......smart alec
 

cork_screw

Hall of Fame
There's a lot of bad linesman out there. I know, I went to the USO and saw some really bad calls while sitting front row. They were reversed with shotspot but they were clear as day what they were, linesman should be trained and filtered out, not recycled based on experience, but filtered out based on bad experiences (in general, not to say a specific event/match).
 

Grigollif1

Semi-Pro
I think it is so funny that the imperfections which are a part of life, that people think that in sports they don`t come into play at all. As if we can have 100% accurate machine run rules. Guess what? illusion, there is no such infalllible control. Even with the Shot spot sometimes makes some clear mistakes.

So I have news for some of you. Sports are very much made from the people to the people by the people. And interpretation and common sense are always going to be factors. In Physical contact sports, like Soccer, NBA I believe NFL is similar. The referees are like conductors of the event, they need to take into account everything involving a match.

Footfault is now ok to decide a Grand Slam semi final? oh, really that is news to me. Footfault has never been known to be such a strict, non interpretive rule. At least I have never seen any important matches determined by foot faults, as it so often happens with line calls.

So you either change the general mentallity of the current game, that is Footfaults is mostly a formal and interpretive rule. Or from now on, foot faults are to be ruled with an iron fist. Which clearly has not been the case up to this point.
 

Chadwixx

Banned
Many people here sound like they think tennis is a math theorem complete with lemmas, axioms, postulates, and conjectures. It's a sport, and a sport run by people, we can run it as we see fit. Does "rules are rules" thinking get you somewhere? Will it get you a reward in heaven from some logic tennis god? Foot faults in the early part of a match can serve as a warning to a player, but they can't accomplish this near the end of the match. A serve from a few millimeters closer won't make it get there significantly sooner, so it makes no difference to the receiver. The players want it played out, so do the fans. So letting them play is win-win-win. But you say all that goes out the window so some some non-human, non-feeling rules god can be appeased. Why?

Extra 2inches on break point service returns is something i would be in favor of. Three serve's if your on the sunny side would be cool too.
 

dunlop1975

New User
your example is a fail.
because those things you mentioned have interpretation involved. Meaning the empire has to interpret the action and determine if a foul should be called.

tennis foot fault and line calls are NOT interpretation. The ball either touched the line or it didn't. The foot either crossed the line or it didn't. If you see it clearly and you are sure, then it's a call. There is no interpretation involved.

You are a fail - there is always interpretation. Linespersons change calls every match, that should tell you they make mistakes. I for one, don't want a match decided by a footfault call, and I'm sure the US Open organization didn't either. Maybe Serena would have lost anyway, we will never know. It's also why basketball referees don't make trivial calls at the ends of important games, fans don't want them decided that way. Let 'em play.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
When I was in Cincinnati for the Masters, the linesperson (Serena match) called the lines in most matches.

She called several footfaults there which raised eyebrows from the players. At the Grandstand court where there is no hawk-eye, there were numerous close calls.

Its hard to say she is wrong but I think she has that strict school teacher attitude. In big moments like the GS, its best to let the payers play....over officiating kills the game!!

what's over officiating i'm dumb
 

Fearsome Forehand

Professional
If she touched the base line at any point after she set up to serve, it is a foot fault. Serena is a pro, she knows the rules. She turns her front foot forward then turns it sideways, all the while she is right on the edge of the base line. It appeared even from the rear camera angle, that she touched the line when she turned her front foot forward, and guess what boys and girls, that is a foot fault. The judge was right on the line, her entire job is to watch for foot faults, I have no doubt it was a foot fault.

Pros often go nuts when called for foot faults. Hewitt and Safin come to mind. Serena had foot faulted twice before in the tournament so she should have been more aware of the base line.

Serena was going to lose anyway, she was playing badly and Clijsters was playing well. Serena has acted like a bratty jerk before so this is no real shocker, is it?
 
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