Locked X-1/TBS hybrid - suggestion for comfort & spin hybrid?

[soulard5]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a comfortable spin-friendly string setup for my Pro Kennex Black Ace 300 and Prince Phantom 100X 18x20.

Tennis background

• I've been playing tennis since I was little but not frequently between 18 and 32. Two years ago, I started playing frequently, taking lessons, playing on the weekends and pretty occasionally playing matches
• I would say my level currently should be around 3/3.5 (not the same system in France). Before taking lessons I was used to playing with a friend who was 5.0 when he was younger
• I play most my points from the baseline. I played with a lot of spin when I was younger, then switched to a more agressive flat / "covered" style, and since a year ago I'm trying to re-introduce more spin in my game.
• I developed a tennis elbow and some ligament pain two years ago after starting playing again. This is now under control following many changes, including gear changes.

Gears

• My rackets are 2 Pro Kennex Black Ace 300, a Pro Kennex Black Ace Pro, a Prince Phantom 100X 18x20
• I mostly play with multifilament strings since my tennis elbow. I did not like the Babolat Xcel they now have at my club, so my current go-to string is the Technifibre X-One Biphase. I don't exactly know why I did not like the Xcel, it just felt too "slippery" if that makes any sense, I felt like it was not gripping the ball enough.
• I don't know the exact frequency of re-string but with a multi I would say maybe 5 hours on average, maximum 10 hours I would say.

Problem

• I have tried a different string setup when I ordered my Phantom: Natural gut VS Touch mains and Alu Power Rough crosses.
• I was impressed by the spin potential of this setup. I wondered if it was the racket but I changed the strings and I have not been able to find this feeling again.
• I would really like to find a similar setup, but I can't go back to something too stiff as I want to keep playing tennis.
• I'm not sure I should try the same setup again as 1) it's more expensive than a multi 2) the alu power was probably a bit too stiff for me. I started to have a bit of pain, nothing much, but maybe would have been an issue in the long run.

What I've done so far

• I had the Phantom strung with X-One 17 in the mains and Tour Bite Soft 18 in the crosses. I liked the feel and was playing well but after a while I quickly started to feel pain during and after.
• I've played with a full bed of X-One 16 without any problem two days after that. The pain is now almost gone.
• I looked at the hybrid string bed and it's locked, meaning the poly is stuck in the multi. Mains can hardly move and crosses are almost completely stuck.

My plan

• Have the current hybrid cut
• Understand if a comfortable enough more spin-friendly string setup is feasible

Questions for you, based on the above

• In the X-One / Tour Bite Soft hybrid, is the pain I experienced due to the locked string bed or is the Tour Bite Soft just not good for me?
• Are multis good choices for hybrid setups or should I go for natural gut?
  • Any good multi for hybrid setups? Is the X-One a good candidate for a hybrid setup?
  • Would gut be more resistant to being eaten by the poly?
• Which poly should I get?
  • Should textured polys be avoided in hybrid setups? Do they all get locked like this when strung together with a multi?
  • Do you know any comfortable and spin-friendly poly that fits well in a hybrid setup? In the TWU database, I see interesting ones: Solinco Outlast 18, Volkl V-Star
• Would a full bed of textured soft poly be too stiff? The Cyclone Tour 16&18 / V Torque 18 / Tour Bite Soft 18 / Weiss Cannon Ultra Cable 17 have stiffness levels similar to the X-One according to TWU.
• Should I just give up this quest and go back to full bed of multi?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Automatix]

I might be wrong but from what you wrote I'd say full poly isn't an option.
You might wanna try to use the softest co-poly with elastomer additives available on the market as a cross, namely Isospeed Cream 1.23mm or MSV Swift. If those kind of strings as the cross still cause you pain, before they're notched, than you might wanna try a slippery multifilament - I've been recommended Tecnifibre Multifeel Black (color is crucial), and will most probably test it out as a cross.
As for the main. Natural Gut can outlive most multis but that doesn't mean there aren't interesting multifilament options to try out. X-One is a very good multifilament. NRG2 is more powerful and softer. Isospeed Control/Professional is very soft but low in power.
There are a lot of options.
When trying out new setups pay attention when your strings lock up.
That X-1/TBS hybrid for example may have hurt you do to it being locked up but could also have been a bit too harsh for your arm since NG/Alu also caused you pain.

 

[soulard5]

Thanks Automatix for your reply.

The thing is I don’t know if the pain came before or after the string bed got locked up. I’ll try to monitor that next time.

The lock up was very fast, I could already see after a few minutes of play that the poly was starting to notch the multi.

Also, pain from NG/Alu was barely noticeable compared to the one from X-One/TBS. Alu is stiffer than TBS, but NG are less stiff than X-One so it’s hard to compare. I just know that X-One full bed is fine, and stiffness is supposed to be comparable to the TBS stiffness so my initial hypothesis would be that the pain comes more from the locked up string bed but not sure.

What’s sure is that this combination does not work for me.

Maybe I should try a full bed of Tour Bite Soft to check as the full bed of X-One does not cause pain. If I don’t have pain with the TBS then I know it’s the lock. If I do though it’s back to the unknown

 

[Roforot]

Sounds like you fixed your arm pain w/ full bed of X-1.
Is there a reason you don't want to play w/ just that?
I believe Djokovic initially used X-1 string when he first started on the tour!

 

[Deleted member 775108]

1. I suggest completely staying away from poly if Phantom and just a Poly Cross hurts you. That racket is a pillow

Yes - give up the quest and go back to full mutli.

With regard to multi.
2. Have your tries Tecnifibre Multifeel 16? Ive had really good luck recommending it to multi people and poly people who dont really need poly. People play it as long as it breaks and others play till it frays too much for them to tolerate. Nice all around string.

 

[soulard5]

Sounds like you fixed your arm pain w/ full bed of X-1.
Is there a reason you don't want to play w/ just that?
I believe Djokovic initially used X-1 string when he first started on the tour!

I don't have pain when playing with the full bed of X-One but I just started recently playing with it, it's not what fixed my pain

• I changed many things to fix the arm pain (new rackets, lower tensions, switch to multi, chiropractor, reinforcement, elbow pad, ice).
• I was playing with old Radicals before (Thread here), with strings (mostly polys I think) I kept for years on the racket without paying attention to the strings put on the racket. The problem is that when I started playing regularly again, I kept the polys on my rackets for months I think and I probably injured myself by playing on dead polys. So I excluded polys as a short-term measure because I needed to heal.

Regarding the reasons I don't want to play with the X-One full bed:

• Most multis I have played with in the past two years were Pro Kennex I think but I don't know exactly which ones. My club now switched to Babolat and since I'm not happy with the Xcel I bought the X-One online. I'm pretty happy with the feel, but I miss spin on it. So even if I stay away from poly I would like a more spin-friendly string than the X-One if that's possible.
• Now that everything is better, I wanted to see if I could reintroduce poly without getting injured if I don't play with them when they are dead. I've tried poly with natural gut and I really loved the spin potential. The best I've experienced for a very long time. Of course, if it is something that comes at the cost of injury I will not do it, just wanted to check whether I can have it all Also, maybe the good feeling I got came from NG, I should maybe try full bed of NG.

1. I suggest completely staying away from poly if Phantom and just a Poly Cross hurts you. That racket is a pillow

Yes - give up the quest and go back to full mutli.

With regard to multi.
2. Have your tries Tecnifibre Multifeel 16? Ive had really good luck recommending it to multi people and poly people who dont really need poly. People play it as long as it breaks and others play till it frays too much for them to tolerate. Nice all around string.

1. Do you think I could not be worth exploring NG / a soft round poly? I started to feel a bit of soreness with the NG / Alu Rough with time, but nothing compared to X-One / Tour Bite Soft locked.

2. I have actually bought the Multifeel, I will have it placed on my racket next time then, thanks. I have identified a few multis with apparently good spin potential, do you know them:

• Tecnifibre Triax
• Head Reflex MLT
• Head Velocity MLT
• Babolat Salt

Thanks!

 

[Gee]

I also would recommend a full bed of TF Multifeel. A nice allround multi string that also snaps back very well. So you don't need to straighten your strings between rallies.
I prefer the thinner gauge 17g (1.25mm) version for more feel and power vs the 16g one in my Phantom 100x 18x20s.

Tecnifibre Triax is a little bit firmer/stiffer feeling string that I used before. A mix of poly/multi string that also didn't gave my arm/elbow problems. However not as comfortable as Multifeel.
I also once tried Velocity MLT that I didn't like so much. Too firm and lack of feel in my opinion.

 

[Roforot]

I have only used a full bed of Natural Gut; it felt great but wasn't enough for me to justify over X-1. It was not a spin set up and I don't think poly crosses will add much spin. Similarily, I would not expect pain/discomfort from poly in the crosses. I know the pros do it but their spin is from technique and they also restring every match/practice. Sampras if I recall had one the highest RPMs on his serves using an 85" racquet w/ NG.

You should try out Triax; I did not care for it b/c I felt it did not have the same type of poly spin nor the feel from a multi. Other people though love it.

I personally have found low tension 35-45# fullbed poly to be absolutely comfortable and the spin makes it controllable. Volleys can trampoline. It may seem odd w/ your hx. of arm pain to suggest poly, but is it possible you're trying to swing excessively to get the same spin? I would try an experiment w/ Tourbite soft 18g or regular Tourbite in 20g. It's fine if you put a synthetic gut or multi in the crosses. The downside to this setup is you shouldn't hit more than 10-12hrs. Ideally the thin string would break by that point anyway.

 

[Deleted member 775108]

1. Do you think I could not be worth exploring NG / a soft round poly? I started to feel a bit of soreness with the NG / Alu Rough with time, but nothing compared to X-One / Tour Bite Soft locked.

Literally NO Plus the tension needed to gain control with gut/poly can feel a little wiry for weak tendoned people.

Try a pack of Multifeel from Amazon. If you like it buy a reel or 2 from Europe. Live happily ever after.

2. I have actually bought the Multifeel, I will have it placed on my racket next time then, thanks. I have identified a few multis with apparently good spin potential, do you know them:

• Tecnifibre Triax
• Head Reflex MLT
• Head Velocity MLT
• Babolat Salt

Thanks!

Triax is expensive - stiffish. I used RPX 3 years ago which was effectively the same thing.

Velocity is Muted + Dampened - fine comfort

Other 2 no idea but reviews didnt seem too exciting when I watched them.

 

[soulard5]

I also would recommend a full bed of TF Multifeel. A nice allround multi string that also snaps back very well. So you don't need to straighten your strings between rallies.
I prefer the thinner gauge 17g (1.25mm) version for more feel and power vs the 16g one in my Phantom 100x 18x20s.

Try a pack of Multifeel from Amazon. If you like it buy a reel or 2 from Europe.

I've been recommended Tecnifibre Multifeel Black (color is crucial)

Ok I'll try the Multifeel 17. What is the difference between the black and natural version?

I have only used a full bed of Natural Gut; it felt great but wasn't enough for me to justify over X-1. It was not a spin set up and I don't think poly crosses will add much spin

Yeah that's funny because I though too that crosses were not supposed to account for the majority of the setup. But I really experienced much more easy spin than before. Is there a rationale behind this?

I personally have found low tension 35-45# fullbed poly to be absolutely comfortable and the spin makes it controllable. Volleys can trampoline. It may seem odd w/ your hx. of arm pain to suggest poly, but is it possible you're trying to swing excessively to get the same spin? I would try an experiment w/ Tourbite soft 18g or regular Tourbite in 20g. It's fine if you put a synthetic gut or multi in the crosses. The downside to this setup is you shouldn't hit more than 10-12hrs. Ideally the thin string would break by that point anyway.

I think I'll try that as well. I've never played under 46 in terms of tension. I feel like a full bed of soft poly could be softer as the setup I've tried since the X-One is pretty much as stiff on paper, but also the string would not lock up if I understand well. I'll try something like Tour Bite Soft 18, Hyper G Soft 18, Cyclone Tour 18. They are supposed to be soft polys. I they start hurting I'll just restring with multi.

The 10-12 hrs downside is not important for me as anyway I break my multi strings before 10 hours usually, more often around 5 I think

 

[Deleted member 775108]

Ok I'll try the Multifeel 17. What is the difference between the black and natural version?

Black is more slick but both are nice IMHO.

Not for big hitters who peg the same spot on the racket repeatedly but most people think they are big hitters - even if the opposite is true

 

[soulard5]

Slick meaning the string grabs the ball less? Or in terms of strings vs strings?

I realized I prefer when there is a good amount of friction between the string and the ball, not a big fan of a slippery feel. That would mean I might prefer the natural?

Sorry if I don’t explain very clearly, I’m French

 

[soulard5]

Slick meaning the string grabs the ball less? Or in terms of strings vs strings?

I realized I prefer when there is a good amount of friction between the string and the ball, not a big fan of a slippery feel. That would mean I might prefer the natural?

Sorry if I don’t explain very clearly, I’m French

 

[Automatix]

Slick meaning the string grabs the ball less? Or in terms of strings vs strings?

I realized I prefer when there is a good amount of friction between the string and the ball, not a big fan of a slippery feel. That would mean I might prefer the natural?

Sorry if I don’t explain very clearly, I’m French

You want slick crosses so the mains can slide freely.
Mains can be rougher. Their snapback is what produces spin.

 

[soulard5]

Yes ok, so we’re talking string / string friction

 

[soulard5]

So I've just ordered a few strings and I'll try them in the coming weeks:

• Multi
  • Multifeel 17 black
  • Triax 16
  • Reflex MLT 17
  • Velocity MLT 17 black
  • Xalt 17
• Poly (I'll try FB so that they don't lock up, and will go back to multi if painful)
  • Tour Bite Soft 18
  • Hyper G Soft 18
  • Cyclone Tour 18

I'll let you know what works best for me. Thanks for your help!

 

[BPlain]

Fellow "no-poly" convert due to long time battle with golfer's elbow here. Multifeel black has provided the most snapback of any full bed multi I've used. The most "poly-like" with no poly present in the string itself. I'm about to test out Volkl Power Fiber Pro in the mains with Multifeel black in the crosses on @Trip and @Happi's suggestion.

Multifeel full bed is great but it frays and isn't the most durable multi. Hoping to get some more durability out of the hybrid I mentioned above.

 

[soulard5]

Great, thanks BPlain, it seems there is a wide consensus that the Multifeel black is a good multi!

 

[ChanterRacquet]

I am enjoying Xalt crosses. Velocity crosses aren’t terrible. Been using Multifeel mains for a while. Just recently tried “soft” poly crosses but elbow says no.

 

[LOBALOT]

I am not a huge fan of the poly's you selected as crosses. You should really search the forum as there are a lot of great suggestions for softer round poly string in posts about gut/poly and multi/poly hybrids. What works for gut/poly should work for multi/poly so I would check both.

All those shaped poly strings you ordered including the Tour Bite Soft you were using as a cross will shred the multi mains in no time and lock the whole thing up. I would pick a round or dented/dimpled round string as a cross and not use a shaped or worse yet shaped and twisted poly for this purpose.

 

[soulard5]

I am enjoying Xalt crosses. Velocity crosses aren’t terrible. Been using Multifeel mains for a while

You’re using Xalt to get better durability vs what you would get with a full bed of Multifeel or is there a different reason?

All those shaped poly strings you ordered including the Tour Bite Soft you were using as a cross will shred the multi mains in no time and lock the whole thing up

I agree, I will not try them as crosses again with multi or gut, I’m planning on trying them full bed as they are known to be soft so let’s see what my elbow says.

You should really search the forum as there are a lot of great suggestions for softer round poly string in posts about gut/poly and multi/poly hybrids. What works for gut/poly should work for multi/poly so I would check both.

Ok I’ll check, thanks. Don’t hesitate if you have some in mind.

 

[Hansen]

regarding the search for a soft poly cross for a hybrid with non poly mains, i would start with cream in 1.23 mm in an 18x20 pattern and the bigger gauge in a more open pattern frame. cream is slippery, soft, has good tension stability for a soft multi and it has the tendency to flatten out and preventing a locked stringbed. at least that is my experience with cream crosses with velocity mlt mains.

 

[LOBALOT]

You’re using Xalt to get better durability vs what you would get with a full bed of Multifeel or is there a different reason?


I agree, I will not try them as crosses again with multi or gut, I’m planning on trying them full bed as they are known to be soft so let’s see what my elbow says.


Ok I’ll check, thanks. Don’t hesitate if you have some in mind.

OK, sorry I mis-read. VCT is actually great in a full bed but 16G is the way to go as it holds tension better than the 18G.

Sure, 2 great soft crosses for gut or multi are Isospeed cream, tier one ghostwire. I like Poly Tour Fire as well but it does die stiff when it goes.

 

[ChanterRacquet]

You’re using Xalt to get better durability vs what you would get with a full bed of Multifeel or is there a different reason?

I don’t have access to MF black so can’t verify others’ claims but Xalt crosses for durability and spin.

 

[soulard5]

Ok great, thanks, I’ll add the Isospeed Cream 1.23 to the list, as a potential good poly for hybrid.

So to recap, what could meet my criteria (no pain, more spin):

• Multis
  • Use cases: full bed / hybrid of multis / hybrid with a soft round poly
  • Models: Multifeel 17 black, Velocity MLT 17 black, HDMX lime 17, Triax 16, Reflex MLT 17, Xalt 17
• Soft round poly
  • Use cases: full bed / hybrid with multis
  • Model: Isospeed Cream 1.23, MSV Swift 17, Tier 1 Ghost Wire 18
• Soft shaped polys
  • Use case: full bed
  • Models: Tour Bite Soft 18, Hyper G Soft 18, Cyclone Tour 18/16

 

[ChanterRacquet]

Well…haven’t popped the multifeel mains yet but the Xalt is done: zero snapback.

I think Velocity crosses had longer playability.

 

[soulard5]

Well…haven’t popped the multifeel mains yet but the Xalt is done: zero snapback.

I think Velocity crosses had longer playability.

And even if it’s not the black the Multifeel full bed could not work for you?

 

[tele]

TF HDMX is worth considering as a main string with soft poly in the crosses. In a poly hybrid, it had the best snapback of the multis I have tried so far (I have only used multifeel in a full bed, so that may or may not be better in terms of snapback).

 

[ChanterRacquet]

And even if it’s not the black the Multifeel full bed could not work for you?

The crosses weren’t lasting very long in a fullbed of MF. Might just live with it. The fall off in performance of Xalt was gradual, whereas MF pretty much performs until it breaks. I appreciate a consistent bed.

Not a new idea but tempted to try RPX in the crosses, it was basically a stiffer multifeel when I tried it in fullbed. Might go 55/51 MF/RPX. Need to get over how much I dislike Velocity in fullbed and try again as a cross, seemed to play consistent through breakage.

Or I might do the unthinkable and just restring MF crosses when they break and only restring mains every other time.

 

[soulard5]

Or I might do the unthinkable and just restring MF crosses when they break and only restring mains every other time.

From what I understood reading other threads, there might be a smaller consensus on this one haha

 

[soulard5]

Quick update as I've received different strings. This is what I intend to try in the coming months.

Setup​	String (Mains)​	Gauge​	Type​	Tension (kgs/lbs)​	String (Crosses)​	Gauge​	Type​	Tension (kgs/lbs)​
Full bed	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Tier 1 Ghost Wire	18	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51
Full bed	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Full bed	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22/48.5	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22/48.5
Full bed	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23/51	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23/51
Full bed	Cyclone Tour	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Cyclone Tour	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Isospeed Cream	17 / 1,28	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23/51	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23/51
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	MSV Swift	17	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	HDMX Lime	17	Multi with poly	22/48.5	HDMX Lime	17	Multi with poly	22/48.5
Full bed	Xalt	17	Multi	23/51	Xalt	17	Multi	23/51

Let me know if you'd do something differently, especially regarding tensions, where I'm not sure what's best.

 

[Roforot]

May I assume your tension is in KG not Pounds ?

As far as pain, how quickly do you realize if you have a bad setup?

 

[soulard5]

It is indeed in Kg! I just added the conversion in lbs.

Regarding pain it depends how bad the setup is I guess.

For the gut / alu rough I started to feel a bit of soreness after the second or third session if I recall correctly. I’m still not sure it would have lasted or if I would have gotten used to it.

Regarding the X-1 / Tour Bite Soft I think the pain arrived right after it locked, I had one practice without pain and the next practice the pain grew during the session I could feel it increase progressively.

So if the setup is really bad for me I’ll know very quickly I guess. If that’s the case I stop with this setup.

If the first hours are OK I continue and see in the longer term.

 

[FLW]

Quick update as I've received different strings. This is what I intend to try in the coming months.

Setup​	String (Mains)​	Gauge​	Type​	Tension (kgs/lbs)​	String (Crosses)​	Gauge​	Type​	Tension (kgs/lbs)​
Full bed	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Tier 1 Ghost Wire	18	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51
Full bed	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Full bed	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22/48.5	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22/48.5
Full bed	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23/51	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23/51
Full bed	Cyclone Tour	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44	Cyclone Tour	18	Soft shaped poly	20/44
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	Isospeed Cream	17 / 1,28	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23/51	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23/51
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23/51	MSV Swift	17	Soft round poly	21/46
Full bed	HDMX Lime	17	Multi with poly	22/48.5	HDMX Lime	17	Multi with poly	22/48.5
Full bed	Xalt	17	Multi	23/51	Xalt	17	Multi	23/51

Let me know if you'd do something differently, especially regarding tensions, where I'm not sure what's best.

Hi Soulard5, thank you for creating and posting this table. Since I was a victim of a severe bad case of TE and currently a lingering one (very mild sensation), I am planning to follow this thread and try a hybrid setting. Just like you, I had to transition to multi and with that, I had to say goodbye to spin. Hence, my intention to slowly transition to a good soft hybrid settings. I'm looking forward to hearing your results. Perhaps, another column with short comments will help me and many in the future understand and compare the results.
Question: In your initial thread, you stated that you played with spin when younger, moved to flat, and want to transition back to spin.
" I played with a lot of spin when I was younger, then switched to a more agressive flat / "covered" style, and since a year ago I'm trying to re-introduce more spin in my game."
If that is the case, I am having trouble understanding why most of your main string setting choices are multi. I understood from many researches I've made that the main are the strings that will generate your spin and the crosses, among all functions, will introduce how soft or stiff your racquet will feel depending on the tension you string your racquet with.
Shouldn't you be trying poly as main and multi as crosses?

 

[FLW]

What stiffness is considered for a soft poly? Per TW, TBS (tour bite soft) is 184. I am trying to find the best bang for your buck on soft poly with max potential for spin. Anybody?

 

[soulard5]

What stiffness is considered for a soft poly? Per TW, TBS (tour bite soft) is 184. I am trying to find the best bang for your buck on soft poly with max potential for spin. Anybody?

I’m pretty sure it’s not a perfect metric (my guess would be that stiffness is probably not the only cause of pain in polys and we anyway don’t have the data for all strings and jauges) but to facilitate my analysis I focused on strings below 180.

For information:

• TBS 18 is 172
• Cyclone Tour 18 is 159
• Hyper G Soft 16 is 172 so the 18 jauge I picked should be lower than that, maybe around 160
• Cream 17 is 178
• I don’t find the data for Ghostwire

 

[soulard5]

Hi Soulard5, thank you for creating and posting this table. Since I was a victim of a severe bad case of TE and currently a lingering one (very mild sensation), I am planning to follow this thread and try a hybrid setting. Just like you, I had to transition to multi and with that, I had to say goodbye to spin. Hence, my intention to slowly transition to a good soft hybrid settings. I'm looking forward to hearing your results. Perhaps, another column with short comments will help me and many in the future understand and compare the results.
Question: In your initial thread, you stated that you played with spin when younger, moved to flat, and want to transition back to spin.
" I played with a lot of spin when I was younger, then switched to a more agressive flat / "covered" style, and since a year ago I'm trying to re-introduce more spin in my game."
If that is the case, I am having trouble understanding why most of your main string setting choices are multi. I understood from many researches I've made that the main are the strings that will generate your spin and the crosses, among all functions, will introduce how soft or stiff your racquet will feel depending on the tension you string your racquet with.
Shouldn't you be trying poly as main and multi as crosses?

Hi @FLW, thanks, I’m glad this test is helpful!

I will indeed add a few columns to capture the results of my test, I did not want to distract with empty columns here but they are already in my Google Sheet I plan to add data on the duration of the string, comfort, spin potential and feel.

Regarding the fact that most of my string setting choices are multi, it is because I don’t want to risk too much with my arm. But basically for me priority is comfort then spin, and I’m trying to find a way to optimize the latter while securing the first.

I took the hypothesis that the mains are responsible for most of the comfort. Maybe I’m wrong and the crosses are responsible for as much comfort as the mains? If that’s the case then I would definitely try the other way around.

But anyway if a given setup is good for me in multi mains poly crosses I would then try it in poly mains multi crosses, I just don’t want to be too ambitious at first with my arm.

I also chose multi which are supposed to be good for spin.

 

[Trip]

@soulard5 - With all due respect, although this string experiment might be interesting, and I'm sure you'll learn a few things along the way (mainly that sharp shaped polys typically make for poor hybrid pairings with soft multi's), I would put most of your effort into physio therapy (daily flex bar work) and working with a coach to address any technical issues that could be contributing to your tissue strain. No insult is meant here, but typically, for most rec players up to even about the 4.5 level, the main underlying cause of most TE/GE is overuse of under-conditioned tissue, often by way of technically suboptimal body motion. The racquet and strings, while they can exacerbate the hurting or healing, are typically only one part of the puzzle, if not a minority part in many cases.

That said, one primary thing to keep in mind as you delve into this string experiment: soft-tissue comfort is often much less a function of overt string stiffness than material makeup -- ie. independent of stiffness, plastic co-polymers are much worse as absorbing and dissipating shock and vibration than gut, nylon, polyurethane and/or polyolephin -- which is why you see the vast majority of players observe that non-poly string beds at higher string bed stiffness (ie. dynamic tension, or "DT") are often more comfortable than poly or even partial-poly string beds at lower DT. This is a long-winded way of saying, especially for the time being, I would shelve the poly strings entirely, and look at using 0%-poly for your string beds, at least until you can get far enough along with tissue wellness and technical proficiency, to be ready for the added impact load and shock propagation that even partial-poly string beds will introduce.

Lastly, one additional point on racquets: don't ignore the possibility of the frame, even a supposed "arm friendly" frame, as a potential contributor to your issues, whether it's due to some part of the frame itself, or the weighting of the strung spec, or both. As close-enough example: the one frame that gave me by far the most forearm tissue aggravation I've ever experienced was the Phantom 100X 305 (16x18), actually two of them (to make sure it wasn't just a single lemon). Long story short, on nearly every hit, even well-centered sweet spot contact, even with full bed nat gut and premium multi, it gave off an intense low-grade "buzz" type of vibration, kind of like what you get after striking a tuning fork. It more or less turned my arm into mincemeat inside a single hitting session, and no amount of added lead, sorbothane strips, silicone, or string adjustments, could quell the issue. Anyways, I don't mention that to insinuate that your PK BA 300 or P100X 18x20 (with its meatier 320g layup) would be causing the same issue for you, but rather to say that just because a frame is billed as "arm-friendly", whether from higher mass, lower flex, anti-shock tech, or any other reason, doesn't mean it will be the most friendly for you. Even if the frame had previously been so at an early point in your life. I know right now, the presumption is, it's a string issue, and that very well may be the case, but I just wanted to put that out there, to keep in check, as you venture forward.

Hope some of that helps. Interested as to how you progress.

 

[soulard5]

Thanks @Trip for your message.

although this string experiment might be interesting, and I'm sure you'll learn a few things along the way

This itself might be worth it honestly. I'm very happy I did the same for rackets for example, I learnt a lot, it probably does not make me play better but I think I better understand what setup I prefer.

(mainly that sharp shaped polys typically make for poor hybrid pairings with soft multi's)

This I learnt already , this was the origin of this post and is why I did not include any shaped poly in the hybrids I'll try.

soft-tissue comfort is often much less a function of overt string stiffness than material makeup -- ie. independent of stiffness, plastic co-polymers are much worse as absorbing and dissipating shock and vibration than gut, nylon, polyurethane and/or polyolephin

Interesting indeed

I would put most of your effort into physio therapy (daily flex bar work) and working with a coach to address any technical issues that could be contributing to your tissue strain. No insult is meant here, but typically, for most rec players up to even about the 4.5 level, the main underlying cause of most TE/GE is overuse of under-conditioned tissue, often by way of technically suboptimal body motion. The racquet and strings, while they can exacerbate the hurting or healing, are typically only one part of the puzzle, if not a minority part in many cases.

This is a long-winded way of saying, especially for the time being, I would shelve the poly strings entirely, and look at using 0%-poly for your string beds, at least until you can get far enough along with tissue wellness and technical proficiency, to be ready for the added impact load and shock propagation that even partial-poly string beds will introduce.

Lastly, one additional point on racquets: don't ignore the possibility of the frame, even a supposed "arm friendly" frame, as a potential contributor to your issues, whether it's due to some part of the frame itself, or the weighting of the strung spec, or both. As close-enough example: the one frame that gave me by far the most forearm tissue aggravation I've ever experienced was the Phantom 100X 305 (16x18), actually two of them (to make sure it wasn't just a single lemon). Long story short, on nearly every hit, even well-centered sweet spot contact, even with full bed nat gut and premium multi, it gave off an intense low-grade "buzz" type of vibration, kind of like what you get after striking a tuning fork. It more or less turned my arm into mincemeat inside a single hitting session, and no amount of added lead, sorbothane strips, silicone, or string adjustments, could quell the issue. Anyways, I don't mention that to insinuate that your PK BA 300 or P100X 18x20 (with its meatier 320g layup) would be causing the same issue for you, but rather to say that just because a frame is billed as "arm-friendly", whether from higher mass, lower flex, anti-shock tech, or any other reason, doesn't mean it will be the most friendly for you. Even if the frame had previously been so at an early point in your life. I know right now, the presumption is, it's a string issue, and that very well may be the case, but I just wanted to put that out there, to keep in check, as you venture forward.

I understand your points here, and maybe I did not explain the situation well enough but currently I'm pretty ok elbow wise. I've made a lot of progress on this end. That's why I'm now thinking of reintroducing poly.

I still have a slight soreness but maybe 10% of what it was. It does not cause any issue in my daily life or while playing tennis, nothing compared to before. It's just something I notice from time to time. It increased significantly when I played with this hybrid but I was careful about it, had the racket restrung and in a few days it was better already. I'm pretty confident I'll get those 10% out of the way when I'm a bit more regular on the exercises at home.

As I was replying to @Roforot, I changed many things to fix the arm pain:

• Gear change: new rackets, got rid of old polys I kept for months / years, switched to multi, lowered tensions
• Physiotherapy: chiropractor appointments, reinforcement, elbow pad, ice

As far as the technique goes, I'm having weekly lessons, I'm not sure what I can do more on this front. The advices of my coach are on getting the right technique (my main areas for improvement are footwork and backhand, my forehand is my best shot but it's likely the one causing the pain) and tactics. Her advice are not focused specifically on avoiding tennis elbow, but I'm pretty sure both are linked, there is no tennis elbow specific shot technique, right?

-

Again, I just want to see if I can add some spin potential to my game, but it's clear that it will not be at the expense of my arm, which stays the priority. If a setup hurts, I don't go with it and move to the next one.

Also, I've included different multis in my selection. Maybe those ones can already provide more spin potential than the X-One.

 

[soulard5]

Related question, what is the string lifetime I should aim for?

I said my average breaking time is probably around 5 hours. I tried to pay attention to check and it seems to be pretty accurate. For example I just broke today an X-one 16 string after ~3.5 hours of play with my ProKennex Black Ace Pro.

 

[soulard5]

I tried the Multifeel black 17 today and it was a very good recommendation indeed, thanks!

The spin potential is better than the X-One. It grabs the ball well and where it makes the difference is with the snapback I think, I feel like I felt the ball connection even more.

It also seems lower powered than the X-One.

Since its playing a bit closer to a poly, do you use the same tension with the multifeel as with other multis like the X-One or do you string it with a lower tension?

 

[soulard5]

Updated table after two strings tested.

Setup	String (mains)	Gauge	Type	Tension	String (crosses)	Gauge	Type	Tension	Overall comments	Durability	Comfort	Spin
Full bed	X-one	16	Multi	23	X-one	16	Multi	23	Very comfortable, decent spin but could probably be better, poor durability with thickest gauge	3h30	Great	Could be better
Full bed	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23	Lower powered, liked the nervous feel (grabs the ball well, good snapback), good spin, should probably go for thicker gauge, should it be tensed lower as closer to poly?	3h	Ok but less comfortable than the X-One. Little soreness after the second training but I think it was due to the technique that day, I was not relaxed enough and forced a bit	Good
Full bed	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23	Velocity MLT Black	17	Multi	23
Full bed	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23	Reflex MLT	17	Multi	23
Full bed	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20	Tour Bite Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20
Full bed	Xalt	17	Multi	23	Xalt	17	Multi	23
Full bed	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22	Triax	16	Multi with poly	22
Full bed	HDMX lime	17	Multi with poly	22	HDMX lime	17	Multi with poly	22
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23	Tier 1 Ghost Wire	18	Soft round poly	21
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23	Isospeed Cream	17 / 1,28	Soft round poly	21
Hybrid	Multifeel Black	17	Multi	23	MSV Swift	17	Soft round poly	21
Full bed	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20	Hyper G Soft	18	Soft shaped poly	20

 

[Roforot]

Is the durability the point where strings get locked up or break? Or for poly goes dead?

 

[soulard5]

Is the durability the point where strings get locked up or break? Or for poly goes dead?

I’m trying multis full bed currently so it’s when they break, that’s something I like about multis, they tell you when they are done

When I’ll play with hybrids I guess it will be either when it locks up or when the multi breaks, whichever comes first (hopefully second option).

Regarding polys I guess it should be when it goes dead but as I’m not used to polys I hope I’ll notice that.

 

[soulard5]

Updated table. My club just went brankrupt so I don’t know if I’ll be able to update it as fast as I would have wanted

Racket	String setup	Mains	Crosses	Status	Review
Black Ace 300	Full bed	Multi, Multifeel Black 17 at 23/51	Multi, Multifeel Black 17 at 23/51	Shortlisted	- Lower powered - Liked the nervous feel (grabs the ball well, good snapback) - Good spin potential - Should probably go for higher gauge as it broke quickly - Should it be tensed lower as closer to poly? - Overall comfort is ok, but less comfortable than the X-One. Little soreness after the second training but I think I was not relaxed enough that day - Poor durability (3h)
Black Ace Pro	Full bed	Multi, X-one 16 at 23/51	Multi, X-one 16 at 23/51	Back-up	- Very comfortable - Decent spin but could probably be better - Poor durability (3h30)
Black Ace 300	Full bed	Soft shaped poly, Tour Bite Soft 18 at 20/44	Soft shaped poly, Tour Bite Soft 18 at 20/44	Not convinced so far, to be tested a bit more	- Comfort seems to be ok but I don't seem to play well with this string. Maybe it's a question or habit, maybe I just don’t play well these days, maybe it’s too low tensed for me, maybe it’s because it’s a soft version? - I have a bad feel with it, I often hit too long which is surprising with a poly, and sometimes straight in the net. I don’t feel in control, I have this feeling that the ball slips on the strings (supposed to bite I know but I don’t see it), similar feeling I had with the Xcel. - Probably because of this poor connection I have, I don't particularly find amazing spin, the ball does not drop like what I liked with hybrids or even multifeel. - Durability seems better (2h30 so far, no sign it will break soon)
Phantom 100X 18x20	Full bed	Multi, Multifeel Natural 17 at 23/51	Multi, Multifeel Natural 17 at 23/51	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Multi, Velocity MLT Black 17 at 23/51	Multi, Velocity MLT Black 17 at 23/51	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Multi, Reflex MLT 17 at 23/51	Multi, Reflex MLT 17 at 23/51	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Multi, Xalt 17 at 23/51	Multi, Xalt 17 at 23/51	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Multi with poly, Triax 16 at 22/48.5	Multi with poly, Triax 16 at 22/48.5	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Multi with poly, HDMX lime 17 at 22/48.5	Multi with poly, HDMX lime 17 at 22/48.5	Not yet tested
	Hybrid	Multi, Multifeel Black 17 at 23/51	Soft round poly, Tier 1 Ghost Wire 18 at 21/46	Not yet tested
	Hybrid	Multi, Multifeel Black 17 at 23/51	Soft round poly, Isospeed Cream 17 / 1,28 at 21/46	Not yet tested
	Hybrid	Multi, Multifeel Black 17 at 23/51	Soft round poly, MSV Swift 17 at 21/46	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Soft shaped poly, Hyper G Soft 18 at 20/44	Soft shaped poly, Hyper G Soft 18 at 20/44	Not yet tested
	Full bed	Soft shaped poly, Cyclone Tour 18 at 20/44	Soft shaped poly, Cyclone Tour 18 at 20/44	Not yet tested

 

[Roforot]

surprised about your experience w/ Tourbite soft. I've only used the regular (at the same tension you used 44#/20kg) but found it very low powered. I got a lot of spin from it though but it wasn't for me. Found it too hard to put away balls or get easy points w/ my serve. I am used to low tension though so there was no loss of control.

 

[soulard5]

Honestly I'm surprised as well, as in the hybrid setup I liked it, at least until it locked.

I will try it again as there is also a good chance I did not try it in the best conditions to be fairly compared with others:

• We used new balls for the first session, it sounds bad but in lessons and practice we very rarely do so, so the balls were much more lively than what I'm normally used to
• During that session since I was a bit afraid that poly could hurt my arm, I put a strong focus on being relaxed, maybe I got too focused on that
• For the second session we played outdoor on a hard municipal court (our club closed its doors), it was very windy. I'm used to playing indoors on clay almost all year long
• Generally speaking, I had kind of a technical breakthrough a few sessions ago while I was playing with the Black Ace Pro. I played much better tennis. Basically it involved being much more active with my feet, feeling the tempo, moving forward with the ball, and being super relaxed with my wrist. I was able to do that almost three sessions. Since then I've watched many videos and kind of lost this feeling. Maybe it's just the usual learning curves, made of ups and downs. But basically it's to say that maybe I'm currently doing something wrong with my technique, which may be affecting my experience with the string.

So it's pretty hard at this stage to know if it's the string that I don't like, or just that it's just other causes.

That being said, I rarely experience low power. I can accelerate the ball, I'm used to control rackets and was used when I was younger to much higher tensions. With Multifeel I experienced it a bit though, but it was strung at 23, no 20.

20 kgs is I think the lowest tension I've ever played with. Before that I only tried multi at 22 and hybrid 23/21. Maybe it takes some time to adjust?

 

[soulard5]

So I’ve played quite a bit now with the Tour Bite Soft, and am currently trying the Hyper G Soft since I broke the TBS (after 8h40 which is much better than my multis)

Both were strung at 20kgs / 44lbs.

My initial lack of spin was completely due to technique I think, the spin on these strings is much better than on the multis. When I broke the poly I switched to a racket I had, strung in multi, I immediately noticed much less spin and my opponent told me the same and started playing much better. This is something I really like.

Arm wise, it’s fine, I don’t have more pain than when I use multis so far. I would even say that it improved since I more consistently do the exercices with Theraband.

That being said, I also instantly noticed better control / feel with the multi. Is this something normal as from what I understand polys are supposed to be more control oriented?

The poly was strung in 44/20 and it was the end of its life, while the multi was in 51/23 and new. Is it the main factor?

There is also something else which surprised me. I have tried in the past few weeks to hit less hard and fast than I’m used to. Could that be another reason for this lack of control? It’s counter intuitive but I almost feel like the poly is lower powered when I hit harder.

Another thing I could think of is the fact that it’s a soft poly. I did not like the Xcel. Does it impact the feel much? Would I maybe prefer a stiffer poly? If strung low it could maybe work for the arm.

Thoughts welcome, still trying to process how polys work and how to get the best out of them

 

[tele]

was the racquet with the multi different from the one with the poly? i.e. was one a black ace and the other a phantom? if so, that could be a major contributing factor to your observations about control and spin with the two string setups.

you may be well aware of this already, bur swinging fast imparts more spin, so that could be related to your perception of control with poly when you changed your swing, but that is just a guess. Polys also lose control with tension loss, and lose spin as notching occurs, something that also may have been part of what you were noticing.

If you play better with multi, that seems like a win/win to me when you also consider your sensitive arm.

 

[Roforot]

A lot of it depends on your swing speed and stroke style. I find polys to work great at 20kg and have started cutting down to 18 even as they have a lot of power. I also get a lot of spin b/c I have to swing out on it. So I perceive control b/c I stay in a rally and hit 20 balls deep w/ good spin. My Western FH swingpath makes hitting the net unlikley and the poly sets it so that hitting long is also implausible... unless I slow my swing speed which tends to hit a more pushing ball. This is the nice thing and benefit from Poly.

Now, if you ask me to hit a cone on the court, this is where it is easier to do w/ a multi and a flatter stroke (and presumably gut). If this is what you mean by control, you would do better w/ a multi.

As for touch, I find if I stick w/ the same setup, drop shots, volleys are all controllable and after a while I don't see a difference.

As for arm pain, it is possible that the more turbulent swing to create a lot of topspin can strain your muscles leading to tendinitis. I'm less inclined to think it is the shock of impact at least for me. My worse tendonitis flareups both happened when I was late returning a serve and used my biceps to muscle it over.