Looking for a racket that hits deep

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
My tennis partner was saying that his Textremes and his Angell werent hitting deep enough and wandered what racket he should get to get more "pop" and consistently hit into no man's land.

Which sticks should he look at?
 

kimguroo

Legend
Well I think hitting to no man's land is his first problem. It's the player who gets the ball deep, not the racquet anyway. He should try to hit through the ball more and get more extension through towards his target.
Agreed but good percentage of recreational players preferred to help depth controls by rackets.
Sounds like OP's partner wants more powerful rackets.
 

esgee48

Legend
Options! Aim higher when hitting BL to BL. Lower the tension in his current string setup, effectively giving higher launch angles. Go to a more powerful string setup. Get a frame that has at least 5-10 more sq in and string at same tension/same string. Tell him to try some of the larger Head frames labeled PWR. :p
 

Minion

Hall of Fame
I reckon it would be a combination of string tension and lead in the hoop. I used to hit consistently about 10cm long on the baseline. Upped tension 4lbs, sorted:)
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
How about training his strokes?

You should be able to hit deep with either racquet, Textreme and Angell.
This may not be the most helpful or desired answer but IMO this is the correct one.

He should learn how to hit deep first - which you can do with any racquet. He needs to focus on his technique. Once he his happy then he can properly appreciate the pros and cons of other racquets.

For example I hit regularly with Gasquets Head Xtreme Pro. It is not the best racquet for hitting deep, but when I want to hit deep I know what adjustments to make..
 

Bogdan_TT

Professional
My tennis partner was saying that his Textremes and his Angell werent hitting deep enough and wandered what racket he should get to get more "pop" and consistently hit into no man's land.

Which sticks should he look at?
To quote my coach, tell your friend to hit at the same pace, but aim higher over the net. This is how kids learn, and there's no shame in playing correctly. Don't switch the stick.

One must hit with the minimum amount of force that allows him to hit deep, with the racquet center while lifting the ball. Pace is only necessary if the other side keeps on hitting consistent winners from your ball. A high, deep, no pace ball with good placement. That's control.

By no pace I don't mean pushed, or no lift. Hitting harder, getting a more powerful racquet or loosening the strings will only decrease the control and increase the chance of not hitting a clean shot.

In amateur games, 99% of the time, pace is meaningless, since you like the word :p But sure, everybody wants to look like Federer. What people don't get is that Federer, or Nole, basically everybody except Nadal (!!!) don't want to bash the ball like crazy. They have to, because the opponent level is so high. But if they play with us they would give us 6-0 6-0 with plenty aces with balls no faster than what we can hit. But they'll play deep, consistent tennis with amazing placement.

Aim high over the net but inside the court. The ball will be more difficult for the opponent than a "hard" lower ball that falls short.
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I would try adding some lead into the hoop first
Yeah, that was my take...give me your racket and I'll fix it. But like a ton of posters here he can't play with something over 330g without elbow issues. 330g is just a guess but weight is not what he wants to do.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Options! Aim higher when hitting BL to BL. Lower the tension in his current string setup, effectively giving higher launch angles. Go to a more powerful string setup. Get a frame that has at least 5-10 more sq in and string at same tension/same string. Tell him to try some of the larger Head frames labeled PWR. :p
Great options.

FWIW He is using gut/poly IIRC and the DT was 23 or around 40lbs. Beleive he strung in the 50s and with tension loss its in the 40s now. THink it was cyber blue or something for the crosses.
 

Arti

Professional
Maybe try hitting under the ball and rotating your core into the shot more instead of wasting another 200$
 

TennisCJC

Legend
I would try 2-4 grams at noon and maybe counter balancing with handle weight.

Bogdan_TT has good points in post #11. The best way to hit the ball deeper is to hit it a bit higher over the net.

If you are looking to hit a more aggressive drive with a lower trajectory that lands deep, then speed up RHS and maybe take a bit of spin off by hitting thru and across more - lower upward angle in swing path.

Now, if you friend just wants some new toys, then getting new rackets will help the economy so go for it.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Tell him he can try my 63 flexing Dunlop Bio300T's, or my 68 flexing Aero500's, with 35 lbs STBite16 tensions Sat. But it'd take 10 hitting session to acclimate to the stiffer racket with softer string tensions.
BTW, I do need your address, or where to meet you, since it looks like I"m picking you up first at 9AM, then going over to Papa's, and then possibly to BART for VitaminL.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I would try 2-4 grams at noon and maybe counter balancing with handle weight.

Bogdan_TT has good points in post #11. The best way to hit the ball deeper is to hit it a bit higher over the net.

If you are looking to hit a more aggressive drive with a lower trajectory that lands deep, then speed up RHS and maybe take a bit of spin off by hitting thru and across more - lower upward angle in swing path.

Now, if you friend just wants some new toys, then getting new rackets will help the economy so go for it.
I think its the new toys thing. He tried weight a year or 2 ago and thinks he messed up his elbow or something. If he could swing my stick, the problem would be solved....
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Tell him he can try my 63 flexing Dunlop Bio300T's, or my 68 flexing Aero500's, with 35 lbs STBite16 tensions Sat. But it'd take 10 hitting session to acclimate to the stiffer racket with softer string tensions.
BTW, I do need your address, or where to meet you, since it looks like I"m picking you up first at 9AM, then going over to Papa's, and then possibly to BART for VitaminL.
He D, I thought Mango was getting me on the way out of town. I'll ask and let him know that he can try your racket. You may see him at SPP this week
 

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
If you want deep and loopy, anything with an open central-main string pattern will help. Head Exteme Pro has worked for me in the past, particularly on clay.

If you want deep and flat, you need to change technique and really emphasis high-pointing the ball regardless of racket choice.
 

Booger

Hall of Fame
My tennis partner was saying that his Textremes and his Angell werent hitting deep enough and wandered what racket he should get to get more "pop" and consistently hit into no man's land.

Can you explain what you think "pop" is?
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
If you want deep and loopy, anything with an open central-main string pattern will help. Head Exteme Pro has worked for me in the past, particularly on clay.

If you want deep and flat, you need to change technique and really emphasis high-pointing the ball regardless of racket choice.
what do you mean by highpointing
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Can you explain what you think "pop" is?
Probably not. Its a dumb word but he is lazy and I think he wants to buy a new racket and have the ball go deeper with the same swing.

IMHO its a fools errand because he doesnt want to go heavier or stiffer and doesnt want to lower tension. The only real thing left I think it pattern.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Probably not. Its a dumb word but he is lazy and I think he wants to buy a new racket and have the ball go deeper with the same swing.

IMHO its a fools errand because he doesnt want to go heavier or stiffer and doesnt want to lower tension. The only real thing left I think it pattern.
Maybe you could give him a 15-minute lesson in physics.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Maybe you could give him a 15-minute lesson in physics.
Yeah thats why its a fools errand. Thinks he just wants a new stick. I offered him mine :) it certainly can hit deeeeep.

Personally I think the gut is messing him up because it lets him not hit hard...
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah thats why its a fools errand. Thinks he just wants a new stick. I offered him mine :) it certainly can hit deeeeep.

Personally I think the gut is messing him up because it lets him not hit hard...
A tennis player in my building asked if he could borrow a racquet from me because he forgot his. I didn't have my racquets with me but I told him that he probably couldn't make use of my racquets anyways. He plays with something light and stuff and wears an arm brace. Most people not used to that kind of swingweight probably wouldn't be able to hit a serve with it. I'd guess that you run into the same thing from time to time.
 

gino

Hall of Fame
Honestly @Shroud . Depth and consistent pace behind a groundstroke should be resolved through technical adjustments. Not equipment changes. Tell your hitting partner to watch a pro with similar grips and swing paths hit in slow motion and juxtapose that with film of himself, because there are so many reasons on a mechanic and kinetic level that a ball could land short. Let's not try and blame the arrow, it is always the indian...........
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Honestly @Shroud . Depth and consistent pace behind a groundstroke should be resolved through technical adjustments. Not equipment changes. Tell your hitting partner to watch a pro with similar grips and swing paths hit in slow motion and juxtapose that with film of himself, because there are so many reasons on a mechanic and kinetic level that a ball could land short. Let's not try and blame the arrow, it is always the indian...........



Hit with one of Berdych's frames and then tell me that equipment doesn't matter.
 

gino

Hall of Fame
Another guy that should study physics.
I'll stick to finance ;)

I really find that equipment can enable already good player to be more comfortable mentally. It's not going to improve your game. Evident by the millions of people who switch annually to a newer frame or new string and get the same result. Get your ass in the gym and on the practice court if you want to hit deeper, harder, and more consistently.
 
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movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I'll stick to finance ;)

I really find that equipment can enable already good player to be more comfortable mentally. It's not going to improve your game. Evident by the millions of people who switch annually to a newer frame or new string and get the same result. Get your ass in the gym and on the practice court if you want to hit deeper, harder, and more consistently.
Some racquets enable players to hit at all. Some are so stiff that they result in injuries. Even to experienced players.

If what you said were true, then we wouldn't need Pro Stocks. Pros could just play with what they advertise. But they don't.

Try hitting with one of Berdych's frames - you can get them for about $500 here and there. A few hits and you'll be able to understand how and why he hits the way he does.
 

gino

Hall of Fame
Some racquets enable players to hit at all. Some are so stiff that they result in injuries. Even to experienced players.

If what you said were true, then we wouldn't need Pro Stocks. Pros could just play with what they advertise. But they don't.

Try hitting with one of Berdych's frames - you can get them for about $500 here and there. A few hits and you'll be able to understand how and why he hits the way he does.
For the record, I have studied the intricacies of recoil weight, polarization, twist weight, balance points, RA flexes, static weight, and swing weights. Not once have a won a match because of those factors. They merely enable me to be more comfortable mentally on court. Player mechanics, natural talent, fitness, and hard work are the true catalysts to better tennis

Berdych is also a perennial top 10 player, who are we to judge his tennis based on his RA stiffness?
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
For the record, I have studied the intricacies of recoil weight, polarization, twist weight, balance points, RA flexes, static weight, and swing weights. Not once have a won a match because of those factors. They merely enable me to be more comfortable mentally on court. Player mechanics, natural talent, fitness, and hard work are the true catalysts to better tennis

Berdych is also a perennial top 10 player, who are we to judge his tennis based on his RA stiffness?
Many people have told me that I play really well with my current and previous frames. I dropped 75 pounds and spent a lot of time in the gym (and still do) and I've made many technical changes to my game and the racquets that I use adds to fitness and technique. Does the frame matter? Of course it does. I had an injury from a stiff frame that took six months to recover from and I found that I couldn't use stiff frames anymore. But I wanted a lot of power and went on a journey to get power without stiffness.

Again, I'd suggest hitting with Berdych's actual frame to understand how and why he hits.
 

gino

Hall of Fame
Many people have told me that I play really well with my current and previous frames. I dropped 75 pounds and spent a lot of time in the gym (and still do) and I've made many technical changes to my game and the racquets that I use adds to fitness and technique. Does the frame matter? Of course it does. I had an injury from a stiff frame that took six months to recover from and I found that I couldn't use stiff frames anymore. But I wanted a lot of power and went on a journey to get power without stiffness.

Again, I'd suggest hitting with Berdych's actual frame to understand how and why he hits.
I'd prefer to spend my $500 on frames that I would appreciate instead of a HEAD TGK or TGT.

I'm not disagreeing that the frame doesn't matter. You need a racket to play tennis. However, @Shroud 's original quandary that his friend is speaking of could be best solved through technical analysis and modification of his stroke mechanics and kinetic chain. Like any player, even those pros using fancy pro stocks.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
> I'd prefer to spend my $500 on frames that I would appreciate instead of a HEAD TGK or TGT.

You're a finance guy. $500 should be nothing.

> I'm not disagreeing that the frame doesn't matter. You need a racket to play tennis. However, @Shroud 's original
> quandary that his friend is speaking of could be best solved through technical analysis and modification of his stroke mechanics and kinetic
> chain. Like any player, even those pros using fancy pro stocks.

I wasn't responding to the original post. I was responding to your point that the racquet doesn't matter.

If that were true, Federer could beat Nadal with the Dora the Explorer racquet.

I think that Technical Analysis is more useful for finding candidates, entries, exits and stops.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Honestly @Shroud . Depth and consistent pace behind a groundstroke should be resolved through technical adjustments. Not equipment changes. Tell your hitting partner to watch a pro with similar grips and swing paths hit in slow motion and juxtapose that with film of himself, because there are so many reasons on a mechanic and kinetic level that a ball could land short. Let's not try and blame the arrow, it is always the indian...........
I think he has better technique than I do at least on the FH. But you can see in this vid what he is talking about. We were going the the 100 ball rally challenge and just trying to be consistent but you can see how much shorter his balls are landing than mine (hes in the white)


What technique changes should he make?
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
I think he has better technique than I do at least on the FH. But you can see in this vid what he is talking about. We were going the the 100 ball rally challenge and just trying to be consistent but you can see how much shorter his balls are landing than mine (hes in the white)


What technique changes should he make?
I love the sound of heavy racquets in the evening.

Huge difference in footwork between the two of you. Especially on the backhand side.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I love the sound of heavy racquets in the evening.

Huge difference in footwork between the two of you. Especially on the backhand side.
Hey I will never win any footwork contests thats for sure but what should I be doing differently? I think I am stepping in.

I think my racket helps me with some easy depth. That is not the normal stick and is a 95" profile I just added about 10g to the hoop but never really tweaked it out to my normal speck but its still heavier and stiffer than the ones hes using.
 

movdqa

Talk Tennis Guru
Hey I will never win any footwork contests thats for sure but what should I be doing differently? I think I am stepping in.

I think my racket helps me with some easy depth. That is not the normal stick and is a 95" profile I just added about 10g to the hoop but never really tweaked it out to my normal speck but its still heavier and stiffer than the ones hes using.
I thought that you were asking about his power problems. He looks like he is just reaching for the ball and pushing it back.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I thought that you were asking about his power problems. He looks like he is just reaching for the ball and pushing it back.
Oh ok. Yeah the 2 hander is not his natural shot and just last week he went back to the 1 hander. The 2 hander was really good when there was pace coming at it.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
For the record, I have studied the intricacies of recoil weight, polarization, twist weight, balance points, RA flexes, static weight, and swing weights. Not once have a won a match because of those factors. They merely enable me to be more comfortable mentally on court. Player mechanics, natural talent, fitness, and hard work are the true catalysts to better tennis

Berdych is also a perennial top 10 player, who are we to judge his tennis based on his RA stiffness?
You're right, mechanics are very important. But to say swing weight isn't important, is an incorrect statement. How much angular momentum you have, determines how fast your ball goes and how much spin you can produce. With poor mechanics you might be limited at the 330 mark, but it doesn't change the importance of swing weight. You simply can't produce the same weight of shot with a 330 as a 350 racquet, given all things held equal. Again, lesser technique will limit you, but by no means is proper equipment simply mental.

Maybe you haven't played a pro/former pro player, but going from a 320 to a 340 or 350, is a night and day conversation changer. One shot will rarely win you a match. Neither will one footwork change. Neither will an extra serve or two. It's the addition of all things together.
RA stuff is absolutely TT **** in the wind; one of the most useless pieces of racquet data. Swing weight however is important. And recoil weight is important.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
I think he has better technique than I do at least on the FH. But you can see in this vid what he is talking about. We were going the the 100 ball rally challenge and just trying to be consistent but you can see how much shorter his balls are landing than mine (hes in the white)


What technique changes should he make?
Gino is on the other side of the fense shroud. With a 400 sw you're going to be out hitting you opponent fairly easily. Same kind of thing that happened when I played that "up and coming high school number 1" a few years back. I would have to basically mess up for him to gain control of a rally. Otherwise I had short balls or was forcing errors right off the return.

You just can't hit through the pace. Would technique help your buddy? Yeah absolutely no doubt. But I get the feeling Gino hasn't experienced even just a consistent player with a heavy racquet. You just can't get them to cough it up short, and when they put their foot on the gas, it's much harder to hit through their ball.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
And I think the conversation of bringing up swing weight and recoil weight and ALL that jazz, is very very important to the OP at hand. It's a hell of a lot more important than what racquet model you choose. I could basically pick any frame from the market (save maybe a power angle) and with the right string choice, and some weight make it work to hit heavy balls and be comfortable.

the angular momentum is what makes your spin (and pace for that matter). Strings and racquet stuff only change how effectively that is transferred. And angular momentum=I * V as in the angular inertia times the angular velocity. The angular velocity you end up with is absolutely related to the technique you use, however angular inertia (AKA swing weight), IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT in determining the angular momentum. EQUALLY IMPORTANT.

Considering there is a non-linear relationship between increasing swingweight and racquet head speed loss, you can really increase your swing weight and get a lot more angular momentum (or spin "potential" power "potential") out of your strokes.

Will that win you a match? No! But it can absolutely close the gap and help you be more competitive. It made the difference when I would play (on a bi-weekly rate for about 5 years) with my old coach, a former ITF pro. It went from me dropping the ball short 90% of the time even with crazy racquet head speed (with a 320sw) to moving to ~350 and hitting winners, and actually being able to rally.

Just like learning better anticipation and footwork didn't win sets for me. The reason why some of us are emphasizing it so much, is because for some of us, it was a big missing piece of the puzzle. I spent years trying to get more topspin and pace at the same time, and I tried tons of strings. I went with what I thought was a good racquet, but it was the simple change of moving to a higher swing weight that finally got me the results I hoped for.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
I'll stick to finance ;)

I really find that equipment can enable already good player to be more comfortable mentally. It's not going to improve your game. Evident by the millions of people who switch annually to a newer frame or new string and get the same result. Get your ass in the gym and on the practice court if you want to hit deeper, harder, and more consistently.

Funny. I must be even worse than I imagined if years with a coach and the same racquet didn't get me what weight addition gave me in a month or two of adjustment.

People switch annually to newer frames with minor differences, that typically have basically the same swing weight. Someone who says they studied sw etc etc would know that most frames are still below 330sw, and generally roughly the same as their previous generations. Even the rf97a is just a return to the sw averages of the older ksix one 90's.
 

RanchDressing

Hall of Fame
Again, technique is very important. But it isn't always the solution. Considering shroud is using one nasty setup, at 400+sw and kevlar strings, with an oversize, he's hitting much harder than his swing speed would suggest.

Will weight ALONE fix the issue? Not likely. He'll probably have to learn to use it, but I'm quite confident it will be a better improvement than buying a new frame.
 

gino

Hall of Fame
You're right, mechanics are very important. But to say swing weight isn't important, is an incorrect statement. How much angular momentum you have, determines how fast your ball goes and how much spin you can produce. With poor mechanics you might be limited at the 330 mark, but it doesn't change the importance of swing weight. You simply can't produce the same weight of shot with a 330 as a 350 racquet, given all things held equal. Again, lesser technique will limit you, but by no means is proper equipment simply mental.

Maybe you haven't played a pro/former pro player, but going from a 320 to a 340 or 350, is a night and day conversation changer. One shot will rarely win you a match. Neither will one footwork change. Neither will an extra serve or two. It's the addition of all things together.
RA stuff is absolutely TT **** in the wind; one of the most useless pieces of racquet data. Swing weight however is important. And recoil weight is important.
I never said swing weight isn't important. I'm reinforcing the fact that all of these equipment modifications are simply enabling the player to be more mentally confident while maybe beefing up the power or spin of a ball 2-3% with 20-30pt SW increase. I don't believe a "heavier" frame equates to deeper or more consistent hitting if you can't generate enough RHS to get it through the air....

Therefore, the true way to increase depth is through utilizing the proper element of the kinetic chain, maintaining consistent weight transfers, generating high Rh speed, and having solid timing/stroke mechanics. The equipment changes simply are the icing on the cake, so to speak. If there is a study published that is able to articulate your point, please share it with me.

I have played in the quailes and pre-qualies of many ITF futures. I am very accustomed to what a pro player's ball feels like. I have coached and played at the NCAA level. My point here is that I have trained with many players that use stock frames and hold national NCAA rankings and ATP/ITF points. Tons of these guys use STOCK frames and hit an incredibly deep and consistent ball.

Check out Logan Staggs (UCLA) or David Hsu (Stanford) on Youtube. Both are elite D1 players and former training/hitting partners. I grew up with these guys and they play frames bone stock, they most likely hit a heavier and more consistent ball then anyone on this forum (yes, sorry, TonLars and Jason, even you). No matter how much I modified my frames during our junior days I could never hit a heavier or more consistent ball then them, simply because they are better athletes, have better stroke mechanics/timing, generate higher RH speed, and transfer their weight better. Simple as that.



 
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gino

Hall of Fame
Gino is on the other side of the fense shroud. With a 400 sw you're going to be out hitting you opponent fairly easily. Same kind of thing that happened when I played that "up and coming high school number 1" a few years back. I would have to basically mess up for him to gain control of a rally. Otherwise I had short balls or was forcing errors right off the return.

You just can't hit through the pace. Would technique help your buddy? Yeah absolutely no doubt. But I get the feeling Gino hasn't experienced even just a consistent player with a heavy racquet. You just can't get them to cough it up short, and when they put their foot on the gas, it's much harder to hit through their ball.
Google Gino Inzerillo: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gino+inzerillo

Also as a 17-year old, I was a hitting partner for Roddick, Sam Querrey, John Isner, and Radek Stephanek at the SAP Open. I was a ballkid for 5 years there and rewarded with the opportunity to be a hitting partner before I left for college. I have felt the weight of an elite ATP level ball. In fact a number one player in the world. Tread lightly my friend :)
 
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