Looking for some feedback, primarily on backhand

Below is some footage from a ball machine session and hitting session. Just some light/medium hitting and effort, my knee/shoulder are bothering me a bit so just slowly getting back into play so not pushing too hard, which is why I look pretty lazy and have some bad footwork here.

Mainly looking for feedback on my backhand stroke, I switched from a one hander to two hander about a year ago, and playing only about once a week it's starting to finally feel more natural, but I still feel like the mechanics of my stroke aren't always consistent, and I struggle the most with lighter pace and short balls, feel like they straight into the net/ground a lot. Any feedback on the serve/forehand is welcome too.

I'll try to get some footage of some full speed match play soon as I'm starting to feel better with the knee/shoulder - as I'm guessing you can provide better feedback with that.


 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for being brave enough to post some video. First off - the nuts and bolts of your strokes look rather good. I'd bet that only mild tweaks with a few of your habits will pay big dividends, sooner than later. Building those habit does require some time and deliberate repetitions, so be patient.

It looks like you have an easier time with producing decent shots when your stroke preparation has a little extra urgency to it. Both with the ball machine feeds and hitting session, your shots look generally better when your racquet gets immediately over to your right or left side when it's on the way. When the racquet lingers out in front of you for an extra beat before you take it over to either side, your swing to the ball is just barely on time or possibly a tiny bit late. This happens sometimes even when the incoming ball is coming at relatively low pace.

I recommend adopting more urgency with your setup all the time so that your swings are unrushed and more effective more often. If straight ahead toward the net is 12 o'clock, get used to popping the racquet (and your shoulders) over to either 3 or 9 o'clock right away when the ball leaves the racquet on the other side of the net.

There's a setup cue that I learned from a guy I worked with at a club for a couple of summers; "Hips below the ball". When a ball is down around our shins, it's no mystery that we need to work to get down to that one to hit it okay. But the tricky ones are only kind of low - maybe just above our knees, but below waist height. A couple of semi-low balls are going into the net on you and I think that this idea could help a lot.

The image of getting our hips below the ball is easier to embrace than simply bending our knees. None of us want to do that if we don't really have to, right? But when we bend them enough to get to where it feels like our hips are below the ball, that brings our swing plane down to the proper height for a decent topspin stroke instead of remaining too upright and reaching down for the ball.

I've had great success with working on two-handers by hand feeding so that the hitter can hit forehands with the non-dominant hand - but there's a catch here. Take your normal 2hbh grip, leave your top hand (in your case, your left hand) on the handle in that "choked up" location, and take your bottom hand off. Do a few practice strokes with deliberate footwork to get the feel of pushing with that left leg, and then have a hitting pal give you some drop feeds - maybe 10 or 12 - so that you can hit some balls like that. These aren't real shots, so don't worry too much about how they fly or where they land. Just go for decent contact and make a mess!!

The idea there is to get the feel of your non-dominant side being more active and "in charge" of that 2hbh. You're not doing something specific that makes me think that you need to try this. It's just that several of your backhand strokes look a little vague and incomplete (but a couple look pretty good). These lefty forehands might give your backhand a little more of a spark. After hitting about a dozen of these, put your other hand back on the bottom of the handle and see how your stroke feels with your left side a little more switched on.

You could also experiment with your spacing. Your instincts with the proper contact zone for your backhand look like you're crowding the ball a little bit with some of those shots (but again, not all of them). The two-hander has some benefits that include more leverage with two hands on the racquet, but the effective hitting zone is usually a little more limited. Crowding the ball can really suck the life out of a 2hbh.

Try to give the ball a little more space so that you can extend through contact a little more with your left arm. Not necessarily with a straight elbow, but a little extra room to give that stroke a little wider swing radius. You might find some free energy for pace and spin potential with this.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
"Hips below the ball"
Interesting. There was a WTA player saying she tries to get her hips to the ball as a mental cue.
Anyway, about turning immediately you don’t think there’s such a thing as being too early in prep, like Bolletieri used to say? Some people think there is and it breaks the rhythm. I also feel like there might be. Then the question is isn’t being too early still better than being late and rushing?:unsure:
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Interesting. There was a WTA player saying she tries to get her hips to the ball as a mental cue.
Anyway, about turning immediately you don’t think there’s such a thing as being too early in prep, like Bolletieri used to say? Some people think there is and it breaks the rhythm. I also feel like there might be. Then the question is isn’t being too early still better than being late and rushing?:unsure:
I'd say that too early prep is certainly too early if that means that the player is taking the racquet all the way back right away. I'm talking about only taking it to the first stage of "ready" where it's over to one side or the other and not out in front of the player toward the net. When I offered the image of taking the racquet over to 3 or 9 o'clock, it might actually be fine to take it over to only 2 or 10 o'clock. Then from that first stage where the racquet is ready to start into a stroke with the proper grip, etc., we can finish back and swing to contact with a normal rhythm. This immediate move to either side gets the racquet closer to being ready to go more often.

This is one of the biggest issues among the developing high school kids I coach. They gain greater ability to swing harder from year to year (wow, does that happen quickly), but that's useless against harder hitting opponents without also learning to use more urgency in their stroke preparation. Once they get away from a casual setup that worked with slower incoming balls from weaker hitters, they can trade shots with stronger opponents.

Even if that more urgent preparation is happening during a more casual hit, that just means that the player has time for an extra shuffle step before the ball arrives and positioning will be even better. If we rush anything, it should be the setup, not the actual stroke.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I'd say that too early prep is certainly too early if that means that the player is taking the racquet all the way back right away. I'm talking about only taking it to the first stage of "ready" where it's over to one side or the other and not out in front of the player toward the net. When I offered the image of taking the racquet over to 3 or 9 o'clock, it might actually be fine to take it over to only 2 or 10 o'clock. Then from that first stage where the racquet is ready to start into a stroke with the proper grip, etc., we can finish back and swing to contact with a normal rhythm. This immediate move to either side gets the racquet closer to being ready to go more often.
Great point! Most lower level rec players don’t even do that initial (3-9) turn before the ball bounces.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Below is some footage from a ball machine session and hitting session. Just some light/medium hitting and effort, my knee/shoulder are bothering me a bit so just slowly getting back into play so not pushing too hard, which is why I look pretty lazy and have some bad footwork here.

Mainly looking for feedback on my backhand stroke, I switched from a one hander to two hander about a year ago, and playing only about once a week it's starting to finally feel more natural, but I still feel like the mechanics of my stroke aren't always consistent, and I struggle the most with lighter pace and short balls, feel like they straight into the net/ground a lot. Any feedback on the serve/forehand is welcome too.

I'll try to get some footage of some full speed match play soon as I'm starting to feel better with the knee/shoulder - as I'm guessing you can provide better feedback with that.


or other model 2HBH
To do single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I don't analyze 2HBHs, other than to say that the uppermost body turns and then there is some shoulder usage before impact. See Djokovic or other model 2HBH to pick your sub-motions.

On forehand, I always post on forehand separation and have posted on that in at least 2 forehand threards in the last 2-3 weeks. Please search and let me know your questions.
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
Consider:

1. getting a little lower by using a wider stance with bent knees before you make contact.
2. hard to tell from this angle but it looks like you might experiment with getting your arms a little straighter and elbows out and away from your body at contact and into the follow thru. At times, it looks like the elbows are too close to the body. You don't want elbows tucked into your rib cage.
3. try hitting more topspin as the shot looks fairly flat. Think of getting the racket head below the contact point (tip 1 above will help with this) and think of the left palm driving up and thru contact before wrapping into the follow thru over the R shoulder. Lift the ball at contact. Sometime I think "hit the ball to my head height" as I make contact when practicing. This gets you in the habit of hitting up and lifting the ball. If the ball reaches you head height in flight, it will clear the net by a bigger margin.
 

GAS

Hall of Fame
The slow-motion-like nature of your movement put me to sleep. I was also put off by all the balls you hit off the 2nd bounce. Maybe get some coffee, guy!
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I'd say that too early prep is certainly too early if that means that the player is taking the racquet all the way back right away. I'm talking about only taking it to the first stage of "ready" where it's over to one side or the other and not out in front of the player toward the net. When I offered the image of taking the racquet over to 3 or 9 o'clock, it might actually be fine to take it over to only 2 or 10 o'clock. Then from that first stage where the racquet is ready to start into a stroke with the proper grip, etc., we can finish back and swing to contact with a normal rhythm. This immediate move to either side gets the racquet closer to being ready to go more often.

This is one of the biggest issues among the developing high school kids I coach. They gain greater ability to swing harder from year to year (wow, does that happen quickly), but that's useless against harder hitting opponents without also learning to use more urgency in their stroke preparation. Once they get away from a casual setup that worked with slower incoming balls from weaker hitters, they can trade shots with stronger opponents.

Even if that more urgent preparation is happening during a more casual hit, that just means that the player has time for an extra shuffle step before the ball arrives and positioning will be even better. If we rush anything, it should be the setup, not the actual stroke.
Do you mean that your "ready position" is useless against harder hitting opponents? If so, I agree....
My today's opponent was doing your "ready" and hit 4-5 times more balls into the net than me. Of course he wouldn't listen so often he also had late contact point etc. So do other friends, even when I hit slower than usual, loopy balls (not hard).

And I suggest forgetting about your so called "ready" and do the real ready/early take back.

And yes @Curious "There is no such thing as too early prep in rec tennis"- Bolletlieri told me so on tennis.com.

OP, why not be ready with the racquet in the furthest back position by the time the ball passes the net?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The only reference stroke techniques offered to players are the ATP & WTA pro techniques.
Compilation of ATP 2 hand backhands.
Go full screen, to single frame on Youtube , stop video, use the period & comma keys.

How does Djokovic adjust for a lower ball, how does he lower his racket head? Forget that you have ever seen that. Do not remember...

Too difficult? Too dangerous? Then what? List of options........?....
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
To compare 2 Youtube videos on the forum, frame-by-frame and one above the other post them together (up to 5 videos forum limit). For stop action use the period & comma keys. To select the video and prevent it from playing, select video by holding down the ctrl & alt keys and left mouse click on the video, otherwise the video starts playing. Go to the 2 frames of impact and stop. Now move back and forth comparing similar times of the strokes for the 1 to 2 seconds of each tennis stroke. For most accurate comparisons carefully select very similar camera viewing angles.

Compare any two frames. Take it for a test run. ( you don't have to be a member )

If you do not want to post your videos on the public forum, then use forum Conversation. You need a second member to use Conversation. (Envelope icon above)

Frame-by-frame comparison is the best (only?) available method to compare tennis strokes. Free. You don't have to know much to begin using it - you just need to be able to see differences in two Youtubes.

You do need to be aware of all stroke safety issues.

You can also do side-by-side comparison of videos that you take or that are on your computer. Kinovea is a free, open source video analysis application. Kinovea has powerful features such as a millisecond countdown time scale that counts down to "0 ms" at racket-ball impact.

Lends itself to a tennis team.......just say'in.............
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
Probably not. Are you a pro?
My weak partner from earlier today was thinking probably like you. It didn't matter the many misses lol
I asked because pros face much faster balls than your friends. That’s all.
Btw do you do that? Is your racket really at the furthest point back by the time your opponent’s ball is crossing the net?
 
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Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I asked because pros face much faster balls than your friends. That’s all.
Btw do you do that? Is your racket really at the furthest point back by the time your opponent’s ball is crossing the net?
Some pros deal with fast balls having the racquet pointing FW on the takeback, not up. A tip one coached passed to me as well.
Anyhow they want fluidity, not that hitch in the swing.

Yes I do and that's what I also "teach" my friends. At least this is what I am for, a very fast unit turn. BTW, according to the coach, ideally you should be done with movement as well, by the time the ball crosses the net.

You can't hit relaxed(at least not easy at all) if you have to use your muscles to take the racquet back after the ball bounces...If it's in the back position all you have to do is let it drop and start the movement from your hips/shoulders, pulling the racquet after your body like the strings of a monkey drum.
 
To do single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I don't analyze 2HBHs, other than to say that the uppermost body turns and then there is some shoulder usage before impact. See Djokovic or other model 2HBH to pick your sub-motions.

On forehand, I always post on forehand separation and have posted on that in at least 2 forehand threards in the last 2-3 weeks. Please search and let me know your questions.
Thanks for being brave enough to post some video. First off - the nuts and bolts of your strokes look rather good. I'd bet that only mild tweaks with a few of your habits will pay big dividends, sooner than later. Building those habit does require some time and deliberate repetitions, so be patient.

It looks like you have an easier time with producing decent shots when your stroke preparation has a little extra urgency to it. Both with the ball machine feeds and hitting session, your shots look generally better when your racquet gets immediately over to your right or left side when it's on the way. When the racquet lingers out in front of you for an extra beat before you take it over to either side, your swing to the ball is just barely on time or possibly a tiny bit late. This happens sometimes even when the incoming ball is coming at relatively low pace.

I recommend adopting more urgency with your setup all the time so that your swings are unrushed and more effective more often. If straight ahead toward the net is 12 o'clock, get used to popping the racquet (and your shoulders) over to either 3 or 9 o'clock right away when the ball leaves the racquet on the other side of the net.

There's a setup cue that I learned from a guy I worked with at a club for a couple of summers; "Hips below the ball". When a ball is down around our shins, it's no mystery that we need to work to get down to that one to hit it okay. But the tricky ones are only kind of low - maybe just above our knees, but below waist height. A couple of semi-low balls are going into the net on you and I think that this idea could help a lot.

The image of getting our hips below the ball is easier to embrace than simply bending our knees. None of us want to do that if we don't really have to, right? But when we bend them enough to get to where it feels like our hips are below the ball, that brings our swing plane down to the proper height for a decent topspin stroke instead of remaining too upright and reaching down for the ball.

I've had great success with working on two-handers by hand feeding so that the hitter can hit forehands with the non-dominant hand - but there's a catch here. Take your normal 2hbh grip, leave your top hand (in your case, your left hand) on the handle in that "choked up" location, and take your bottom hand off. Do a few practice strokes with deliberate footwork to get the feel of pushing with that left leg, and then have a hitting pal give you some drop feeds - maybe 10 or 12 - so that you can hit some balls like that. These aren't real shots, so don't worry too much about how they fly or where they land. Just go for decent contact and make a mess!!

The idea there is to get the feel of your non-dominant side being more active and "in charge" of that 2hbh. You're not doing something specific that makes me think that you need to try this. It's just that several of your backhand strokes look a little vague and incomplete (but a couple look pretty good). These lefty forehands might give your backhand a little more of a spark. After hitting about a dozen of these, put your other hand back on the bottom of the handle and see how your stroke feels with your left side a little more switched on.

You could also experiment with your spacing. Your instincts with the proper contact zone for your backhand look like you're crowding the ball a little bit with some of those shots (but again, not all of them). The two-hander has some benefits that include more leverage with two hands on the racquet, but the effective hitting zone is usually a little more limited. Crowding the ball can really suck the life out of a 2hbh.

Try to give the ball a little more space so that you can extend through contact a little more with your left arm. Not necessarily with a straight elbow, but a little extra room to give that stroke a little wider swing radius. You might find some free energy for pace and spin potential with this.

To do single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I don't analyze 2HBHs, other than to say that the uppermost body turns and then there is some shoulder usage before impact. See Djokovic or other model 2HBH to pick your sub-motions.

On forehand, I always post on forehand separation and have posted on that in at least 2 forehand threards in the last 2-3 weeks. Please search and let me know your questions.

Consider:

1. getting a little lower by using a wider stance with bent knees before you make contact.
2. hard to tell from this angle but it looks like you might experiment with getting your arms a little straighter and elbows out and away from your body at contact and into the follow thru. At times, it looks like the elbows are too close to the body. You don't want elbows tucked into your rib cage.
3. try hitting more topspin as the shot looks fairly flat. Think of getting the racket head below the contact point (tip 1 above will help with this) and think of the left palm driving up and thru contact before wrapping into the follow thru over the R shoulder. Lift the ball at contact. Sometime I think "hit the ball to my head height" as I make contact when practicing. This gets you in the habit of hitting up and lifting the ball. If the ball reaches you head height in flight, it will clear the net by a bigger margin.

Appreciate the feedback from you guys, will try it out and see if it helps. Definitely agree with the point on urgency, I think that's why I hit best in faster paced rallies (not shown above), because it forces me to be quick with my movements.
The slow-motion-like nature of your movement put me to sleep. I was also put off by all the balls you hit off the 2nd bounce. Maybe get some coffee, guy!
That's why I prefaced with light session and lazy footwork. I'll try to get some footage of match play where I am going closer to full speed - hopefully that will help get a better analysis of my shots.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Appreciate the feedback from you guys, will try it out and see if it helps. Definitely agree with the point on urgency, I think that's why I hit best in faster paced rallies (not shown above), because it forces me to be quick with my movements.

That's why I prefaced with light session and lazy footwork. I'll try to get some footage of match play where I am going closer to full speed - hopefully that will help get a better analysis of my shots.
You can compare a Vimeo to a Youtube. No problem.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
OP, @Curious @fuzz nation and all,

I notice a glaring problem with rec players is their elbow drops too much (too low) in the back swing. Doesn't that rob us power?

I notice pro's elbow tends to stay high, ie away from the body. As a result the FH has a better, farther reach and engages the chest and back muscles more. Yes?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
OP, @Curious @fuzz nation and all,

I notice a glaring problem with rec players is their elbow drops too much (too low) in the back swing. Doesn't that rob us power?

I notice pro's elbow tends to stay high, ie away from the body. As a result the FH has a better, farther reach and engages the chest and back muscles more. Yes?
Power yes but timing is easier imo when elbow is low.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Nope, need later space, especially on the FH.
Isn’t it easier to control things with your hand closer to you? I don’t mean cramped up. It’s more like as compact as possible with the hand and racket take back and use more coiling to make up for it to still have enough power.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Power yes but timing is easier imo when elbow is low.
Is that because the racket face’s level is closer to that of the contact point..?

I notice if I keep elbow high that means a bigger loop for the swing which means more chance for a disjointEd swing.

is that right?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Is that because the racket face’s level is closer to that of the contact point..?

I notice if I keep elbow high that means a bigger loop for the swing which means more chance for a disjointEd swing.

is that right?
I’m sure everyone would have the tiniest compact stroke if their life depended on the outcome!:)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I’m sure everyone would have the tiniest compact stroke if their life depended on the outcome!:)
I don't understand your discussion. Speak plainly. We're not in your head. ;)

btw I'm going away from overthinking, overcomplicating things. Communication is hard enough. No need to make it harder. LOL.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Ok. Compact is good. :)
i'M At the point where I can sacrify some consisitency (from compact or stunt) for more power by going less compact.

I think i need to learn to elevate my elbow during the whole stroke. Let me check out some of the pro's strokes....


So clear...
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
i'M At the point where I can sacrify some consisitency (from compact or stunt) for more power by going less compact.

I think i need to learn to elevate my elbow during the whole stroke. Let me check out some of the pro's strokes....


So clear...
Ok, if you think you need more power.
 
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