I've already acknowledged that pushers value winning more than playing real tennis.
Lost to a pusher.
- Thread starter DanFuller
- Start date
I've already acknowledged that pushers value winning more than playing real tennis.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
So, because you know this pusher it has gone from a miserable match you are dreading to one you look forward to for the fun? Strange.
tennis tom
Legend
Well there you go again :" "real tennis". The beauty of tennis is that it is inclusive of so many people who can participate. Most people keep score, so then the only "real" decider is who won--no style points added to the score. I've known some people who have hit balls for decades and never played a set, only smacking the ball back and forth. Personally, I enjoy competing and the meditative pleasure of just hitting the ball for practice and pleasure.
I think it was Masters and Johnson who described the feeling of hitting a ball properly like a thousand orgasms going up and down your arm. That may have been a bit of a stretch but they were a very horny couple finding their opportunities everywhere. There are so many styles, sizes and shapes and forms of players I don't know who decides what is "real" and what is Memorex tennis. I like to play as long as possible, so if my opponent can come up with shots that keep the match going I'm good with that--no time limits in "real" tennis either--best three out of five sets--no tie breakers.
Mongolmike
Hall of Fame
Here is another point of view on the whole "labeling people as pushers" and all that entails....
Let's say you are a solid 4.0 or 4.5 player. You've got decent strokes, decent serve, you get to the net when the opportunity presents, you've got solid court coverage... you are a solid player.
Now let's say you get the chance to play a set vs a top tour player. And the tour player is motivated to play his best vs you. So what will happen (besides you losing)? Maybe this-
So "Tour" serves, and if you manage to get frame on the return, the ball was so heavy and had "+" location, that you could only manage to kind of block it back to Tour's service line. He had quickly moved in and rips a FH to the opposite corner for a winner. 15-0
Next serve, Tour misses his first serve. Second serve is a wicked kicker which you shank for an error. 30-0
Next 1st serve jams you, again you get a weaker shot back to his service line... again he rips a fh winner. 40-0
Next serve is right in your wheelhouse and you get a solid stroke on it back at Tour deep. He easily hits a sharp shot crosscourt which you can barely get to, and all you can do is hit a 3/4's defensive lob... which Tour easily overheads for a winner.
Etc., etc., etc.
So an outsider watching this match thinks, Tour guy is pretty good... the other guy is just a pusher. Everything he hit back was weak. Most of his shots barely got past the service line. He hit a lot of lobs. (And of course there is that one guy that says, "Yeah, he isn't even playing real tennis.")
Truth of the matter is the quality of the opponent FORCED the 4.0 player to struggle to get the ball back. The quality of the shots prevented 4.0 from being able to even rally effectively. He couldn't get a rythmn, could never control a point.
Does that make him a pusher? Does that make him a bad player?
Let's say you are a solid 4.0 or 4.5 player. You've got decent strokes, decent serve, you get to the net when the opportunity presents, you've got solid court coverage... you are a solid player.
Now let's say you get the chance to play a set vs a top tour player. And the tour player is motivated to play his best vs you. So what will happen (besides you losing)? Maybe this-
So "Tour" serves, and if you manage to get frame on the return, the ball was so heavy and had "+" location, that you could only manage to kind of block it back to Tour's service line. He had quickly moved in and rips a FH to the opposite corner for a winner. 15-0
Next serve, Tour misses his first serve. Second serve is a wicked kicker which you shank for an error. 30-0
Next 1st serve jams you, again you get a weaker shot back to his service line... again he rips a fh winner. 40-0
Next serve is right in your wheelhouse and you get a solid stroke on it back at Tour deep. He easily hits a sharp shot crosscourt which you can barely get to, and all you can do is hit a 3/4's defensive lob... which Tour easily overheads for a winner.
Etc., etc., etc.
So an outsider watching this match thinks, Tour guy is pretty good... the other guy is just a pusher. Everything he hit back was weak. Most of his shots barely got past the service line. He hit a lot of lobs. (And of course there is that one guy that says, "Yeah, he isn't even playing real tennis.")
Truth of the matter is the quality of the opponent FORCED the 4.0 player to struggle to get the ball back. The quality of the shots prevented 4.0 from being able to even rally effectively. He couldn't get a rythmn, could never control a point.
Does that make him a pusher? Does that make him a bad player?
OrangePower
Legend
Made me chuckle, because (1) I'm a solid 4.5 player, and (2) I got a chance to hit with a tour player
True story: This happened maybe a year ago... I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, and got a 10 minute hit with a current tour pro (currently ranked in the 80s/90s I think). So not a famous name, but still this is a guy who has made it to 2nd round of slams, etc.
He was just fooling around of course, and we were just hitting, but I was struggling just to maintain a casual rally with the guy. And he was probably doing the pro equivalent of "pushing" to me.
Yeah this is a completely different scenario than actually being a pusher.
Yeah that is a contradiction.. maybe I should be in politics lol
ITs been many years since we played so maybe I feel more relaxed knowing I won but it was super long points.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
What if the hitting pro was Murray? Even though short points does that make two pushers?
pfrischmann
Professional
What's the big deal with being a pusher? I think it's a really good strategy if you are fit enough to pull it off. I could never do it. I'm just not patient enough. I think people put down pushers out of frustration, the same way McEnroe put down Brad Gilbert when he lost to him. Winning ugly is still winning.
Last fall, I played a notorious pusher for a USTA match. I don't play much singles but decided to start to get in better shape and refine my ground game. I won the first set 6-4 in an hour, lost the second in a tiebreak in just over an hour. Lost the third in just over an hour in a tie break (lost by 2). total time on court, 3 hours 22 minutes. This guy lobbed so much, I think I sunburned my corneas.
How did he win, he out lasted me and gave me no pace. I realized at the end of the first set that I could not play my big ground stroke game and make it two sets let alone three. My game consumed significantly more energy than his and many of our rallies were 15-20 hits with me generating all of the pace. (smart on his part)
It was a great match (minus losing) and he is a great guy. After the mach he thanked me for being so gracious as many people get upset with him and shout things like "that is not tennis!" and storm off the court, some even forfeit in disgust.
I just don't get that. pushing can be a smart strategy. Above all things, a match is about problem solving. This day, I didn't have the answers but I learned a lot. My fitness is way better and I have a solid strategy for next time..
Last fall, I played a notorious pusher for a USTA match. I don't play much singles but decided to start to get in better shape and refine my ground game. I won the first set 6-4 in an hour, lost the second in a tiebreak in just over an hour. Lost the third in just over an hour in a tie break (lost by 2). total time on court, 3 hours 22 minutes. This guy lobbed so much, I think I sunburned my corneas.
How did he win, he out lasted me and gave me no pace. I realized at the end of the first set that I could not play my big ground stroke game and make it two sets let alone three. My game consumed significantly more energy than his and many of our rallies were 15-20 hits with me generating all of the pace. (smart on his part)
It was a great match (minus losing) and he is a great guy. After the mach he thanked me for being so gracious as many people get upset with him and shout things like "that is not tennis!" and storm off the court, some even forfeit in disgust.
I just don't get that. pushing can be a smart strategy. Above all things, a match is about problem solving. This day, I didn't have the answers but I learned a lot. My fitness is way better and I have a solid strategy for next time..
norcal
Legend
No, of course not! LeeD is a fine player and certainly not a pusher!
Oddly it's primarily the guys defending pushing that are arguing it isn't effective.
I agree it can be a very effective strategy. It's just not real tennis.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
Real tennis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Real tennis – one of several games sometimes called "the sport of kings" – is the original racquet sport from which the modern game of lawn tennis (usually simply called tennis) is derived. It is also known as court tennis in the United States,[1] formerly royal tennis in England and Australia,[2] and courte-paume in France (a reference to the older, racquetless game of jeu de paume, the ancestor of modern handball and racquet games; many French real tennis courts are at jeu de paume clubs).
The term real was first used by journalists in the early 20th century as a retronym to distinguish the ancient game from modern lawn tennis (even though the latter sport is seldom contested on lawns these days outside the few social-club-managed estates such as Wimbledon).
Real tennis is still played on about 43 surviving courts in the United Kingdom, Australia, the United States and France. Despite a documented history of courts existing in the German states from the 17th century, the sport evidently died out there during or after the World War II reconstruction. The sport is supported and governed by various organizations around the world.
It seems "Real tennis" died out a long time ago so we can just describe the game as a whole, no matter who is playing or what method is used, as tennis.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Real tennis – one of several games sometimes called "the sport of kings" – is the original racquet sport from which the modern game of lawn tennis (usually simply called tennis) is derived. It is also known as court tennis in the United States,[1] formerly royal tennis in England and Australia,[2] and courte-paume in France (a reference to the older, racquetless game of jeu de paume, the ancestor of modern handball and racquet games; many French real tennis courts are at jeu de paume clubs).
The term real was first used by journalists in the early 20th century as a retronym to distinguish the ancient game from modern lawn tennis (even though the latter sport is seldom contested on lawns these days outside the few social-club-managed estates such as Wimbledon).
Real tennis is still played on about 43 surviving courts in the United Kingdom, Australia, the United States and France. Despite a documented history of courts existing in the German states from the 17th century, the sport evidently died out there during or after the World War II reconstruction. The sport is supported and governed by various organizations around the world.
It seems "Real tennis" died out a long time ago so we can just describe the game as a whole, no matter who is playing or what method is used, as tennis.
OrangePower
Legend
Pushing can be a very effective strategy, up to a point.
A pusher puts the question to his opponent: Can you execute aggressive strategy and shots consistently enough to beat me? Because if not, you're going to beat yourself via errors due to being too sloppy/out of shape/undisciplined.
At lower levels, the answer to that question is usually "No".
At higher levels, the answer turns to "Yes" more commonly (but still not always).
As far as people's attitudes towards pushers, I think they fall into three broad camps:
1. Players who struggle to beat pushers, and then try soothe their egos by maintaining that it's not "real tennis".
2. Players who struggle to beat pushers, and use that experience to highlight deficiencies in their own game and as motivation to improve.
3. Players who typically beat pushers, and don't mind playing them because it forces them to be focused and disciplined.
A pusher puts the question to his opponent: Can you execute aggressive strategy and shots consistently enough to beat me? Because if not, you're going to beat yourself via errors due to being too sloppy/out of shape/undisciplined.
At lower levels, the answer to that question is usually "No".
At higher levels, the answer turns to "Yes" more commonly (but still not always).
As far as people's attitudes towards pushers, I think they fall into three broad camps:
1. Players who struggle to beat pushers, and then try soothe their egos by maintaining that it's not "real tennis".
2. Players who struggle to beat pushers, and use that experience to highlight deficiencies in their own game and as motivation to improve.
3. Players who typically beat pushers, and don't mind playing them because it forces them to be focused and disciplined.
tennis tom
Legend
Just a small factoid: Henri the 8, gave the order to chop off Ann Bolyn's head while playing "real"/court tennis--at least according to the movie.
OrangePower
Legend
Anne Boleyn was reportedly watching a tennis match when she was summoned for questioning (and later taken to the Tower of London for execution). However it was not Henry 8th that was playing.
Nevertheless it goes to show: Beware the wrath of your significant other when watching members of the opposite sex playing tennis!
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
My examples weren't in reference to winning or "real" tennis. They were to counter your statement "I just can't imagine going into any sport with the mentality, 'I'm going to let my opponent beat up on me and hope he lets me win.'" The examples I gave all involved waiting for the opponent to attack first.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Hmm: it appears I must do the logical but unthinkable thing and agree with Startzel. The scenario you outlined, mongol, is one where the solid 4.0 player is barely able to get the ball back because the opponent is so good. The thread we're discussing more deals with a pusher who *chooses* to push the ball back rather than attack. The difference is, in the former, the "pusher" doesn't have much choice whereas in the latter, he does.
Not that I agree with Startzel's claim that pushing is somehow not "real" tennis.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
I beat a real tennis player tonight with a pushing strategy. My baseline game was working well, then they'd come to the net for a shot ball and the lob was working. At the same time, when they forced me to the net, I won more points than I lost.
Earlier in the week, I got killed by a real tennis player though.
Earlier in the week, I got killed by a real tennis player though.
I know your examples weren't actually the equivalent of the pusher I was replying to.
Yeah on my challenge ladder
I will have to play him again in few months if he re-challenges
He was on usta team years back
He has put on a few pounds and was slower
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
^^^ I should have been clearer, sorry. Why play a challenge to 8 (assuming you play sets in regular competition)? Out of curiosity, how'd the serve perform?
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
I agree, so called "pro-sets" are not a good representation of tennis skill. Play best of 3 sets or not at all.
And why are they called "pro-sets" anyway?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Maybe it's purely for time reasons? I've seen the pro set and the 10 point TB 3rd set but only in tournaments.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-ttw-dictionary.251731/page-3
"Pusher" is defined in post #111 (but I think someone can do better).
I didn't see an entry for "Real Tennis".
Anyone want to add these entries and their TTW definitions? It would be awesome if @Dilettante would do it (he's one seriously funny dude).
tennis tom
Legend
Probably because no pro would ever play one in real competition, only for pro-ams.
Last edited:
That's usually how challenge matches are done at the HS level as well.
It's a way to save time.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I guess so, and I'm on-board with the 10 point TB as you've already split sets. 8 just seemed a weird number to me as I've never heard of it, which is why I asked.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
While I'm not going as far as Starzel to say that "pushing" isn't real tennis, I will say i'm not a fan of the strategy at all. The biggest problem with pushing as a strategy is that no one wants to play you. You better be a hell of a nice guy or you will find yourself out of partners soon. Many of us enjoy the rhythm of a fast paced rally and the opportunity to take control of a point with precise fast paced groundstrokes. Pushers will have none of that. So you get into a monotonous game of "who makes the first mistake". Great for cardio but not for adrenalin or endorphins.
Pushing is a real tennis strategy that wins. And as someone stated, pushers care more about the final score than getting better at tennis. It's a conscious choice to not work on modern strokes and rely on the knowledge that most amateurs are inconsistent and can be beat if you do nothing more but get the ball back deep. That's likely why there is a deep seated dislike for them. They win without putting the time in to get better. They offer a game that does nothing to satisfy the soul. I will only play them when I think I need some extra exercise.
Of course I'm sure any 4.5 would think I'm a pusher as I try to keep from getting blown off the court.
Pushing is a real tennis strategy that wins. And as someone stated, pushers care more about the final score than getting better at tennis. It's a conscious choice to not work on modern strokes and rely on the knowledge that most amateurs are inconsistent and can be beat if you do nothing more but get the ball back deep. That's likely why there is a deep seated dislike for them. They win without putting the time in to get better. They offer a game that does nothing to satisfy the soul. I will only play them when I think I need some extra exercise.
Of course I'm sure any 4.5 would think I'm a pusher as I try to keep from getting blown off the court.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I have a different take: if I need to work on my consistency, patience, and ability to finish a point, who better than a good pusher to play? For example, for a long time I've been satisfied with blocking/slicing a relatively weak shot and coming into the net in doubles. However, to keep improving, I need to be able to do more than this. So I made a conscious decision to stop taking the easy way out and forced myself to drive the ball. I think that effort is paying off because now I'm confident in that shot whereas before I was not. If it wasn't for the pusher, I wouldn't have had the opportunity.
Again, I offer a different take: IMO, pushing pays off sooner than learning "proper" technique because it's easier to master. This has huge dividends up to 3.5 or so, where there are still a lot of UEs. It pays off less and less the higher one goes. I would say it has more benefits sooner but limits one's progress more. If one is willing to put in the time and energy and $, I believe proper technique would allow one to progress further but it takes more time.
Note, Startzel, that I'm NOT saying pushing is not "real" tennis. It's very real but where we likely agree is that it places lower limits on one's potential.
4th Musketeer: I am a 4.5 and I would NOT consider you a pusher. I've hit with many people, from beginners to open, and I try to treat them all with respect. If you're considerably below my level, I'm not going to try to blow you off of the court, just because I can. If you ask me for advice, I'll freely give it. If you don't, I'll keep silent. Maybe that will inspire you to get better which you'll pass on to someone else, and so on, and so on...
navigator
Hall of Fame
Here's the reality, though, as I see it... for most adults who have been playing regular tennis for a while... they don't get meaningfully better whether they're pushing or not pushing. I've said this a few times but with few exceptions, if you're over 35 and have been playing regular tennis for at least five years... you're probably not getting measurably better unless you take extreme measures. Again, there are exceptions, but they're rare. The vast majority of folks who complain about not being able to beat pushers... are never going to beat them. They can "work on getting better at tennis" all they like... they'll still be losing to the same pushers because they're not really getting any better. (I repeat, there are always exceptions.) Think about all of the folks in your tennis circle. What percentage of them have made a real, meaningful improvement (I'm talking a 1/2 NTRP point jump) over the last few years (where you said, "Wow, that dude's gotten a lot better")? I don't know of a single one among adults (juniors, yes) in my circle and I was playing a lot of tennis (5x per week) at (until recently) a huge public club (and a lot of tournaments). If folks want to work on hitting harder or playing more aggressive, that's great. But most of these folks shouldn't fool themselves into thinking that they're going to beat that pusher one day... because they probably won't. But, hey, it's about the journey, right? So, no big deal.
I defer to Pushkin: "The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths."
Just my observations and two cents, of course.
MathGeek
Hall of Fame
I work to get better at tennis, and I have gotten much better in the last few years, even though I'm still a pusher.
But at 48, I can't go back and learn the fundamental strokes and play like some would prefer. My schedule and aging joints only allow me to hit the court once or twice a week. My placement and net game have both improved markedly in the last few years, and while the power in my serve is declining with age, my placement of serve is improving.
How often do you hit with pushers for practice?
Well said.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Once per week.
Work in my progress.. but I am hitting my slice and top spin better than a month ago and the ball toss is better.
I feel my serve is better in placement and consistency but still not getting the power or bite that I a 6-1 guy should be getting.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
If you feel like you're getting enough shoulder and core rotation, maybe you're not using your legs enough ["dip and rip", "load and explode", etc.]. I know that's a weakness of mine, perhaps my biggest of many with my serve.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Startzel: How often do you hit with pushers for practice?
S&V-not_dead_yet: Once per week [he answers, puzzled by the question but sure there is an ulterior motive]
Startzel: You contradicted yourself [and are therefore lying]: here's a previous post of yours where you said "I'm theorizing, of course. None of my singles opponents are pushers."
Who said I was playing singles when I play pushers? With respect to my answer, I was talking doubles.
That awkward moment when you realize you've assumed too much.
And this is relevant to the "Lost to a Pusher" thread how? Just as someone who hates playing pushers tries to make up excuses as to why he lost to a pusher, now that you've clearly lost the "Pusher" argument with multiple people pointing out the same flaws in your logic, you're looking for ways to show how others might have been wrong on tangential topics rather than just admitting your error and moving on. Or, at the very least, not admitting your error and moving on; the key phrase being "moving on".
S&V-not_dead_yet: Once per week [he answers, puzzled by the question but sure there is an ulterior motive]
Startzel: You contradicted yourself [and are therefore lying]: here's a previous post of yours where you said "I'm theorizing, of course. None of my singles opponents are pushers."
Who said I was playing singles when I play pushers? With respect to my answer, I was talking doubles.
That awkward moment when you realize you've assumed too much.
And this is relevant to the "Lost to a Pusher" thread how? Just as someone who hates playing pushers tries to make up excuses as to why he lost to a pusher, now that you've clearly lost the "Pusher" argument with multiple people pointing out the same flaws in your logic, you're looking for ways to show how others might have been wrong on tangential topics rather than just admitting your error and moving on. Or, at the very least, not admitting your error and moving on; the key phrase being "moving on".
Whatever makes you feel better about lying to strengthen your position.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Startzel,
First you accuse Topaz of cheating [and many others, no doubt, since such a high % of your posts are about this topic]. Now you accuse me of lying. I sense a pattern here and it's not favorable [to you]. I don't mind the parry and riposte of our intellectual sword-crossing. But it's apparent to me you have a deeper motivation than discussing tennis.
I wish you well.
S&V-not_dead_yet
First you accuse Topaz of cheating [and many others, no doubt, since such a high % of your posts are about this topic]. Now you accuse me of lying. I sense a pattern here and it's not favorable [to you]. I don't mind the parry and riposte of our intellectual sword-crossing. But it's apparent to me you have a deeper motivation than discussing tennis.
I wish you well.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
But what is stopping you from doing this against a pusher? In fact, this is precisely how to beat the pusher.
^^^ spot on ^^^
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
What stops him is that the pusher is not "cooperating" [or, in Startzel-ese, he's not playing "real" tennis]: the pusher is sending back slow-paced shots whereas I assume when Dartagnan talked about a fast-paced rally, he was talking about both players.
I didn't accuse you of anything. I clearly showed you did. I'm not going to feel sorry for you playing a victim after you clearly lied.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
hmmm While perhaps enjoyable, I'd argue that a strategy of trying to hit fast paced ground strokes is playing right into the pusher game. That's why much hate; they don't help you with ufe 's
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Playing offense is how you beat the pusher. You can't out-push the pusher.
tennis_ocd
Hall of Fame
Curious as to how you do against pushers. In a way (and IF given unlimited patience) if one can't out-push the pusher he's unlikely to win with other strategies. What I mean is, if one can't consistently out rally a player for a few points I find they lack the skill set to win with anti-pusher strategies.
Pushers usually win because they are mentally stronger.
I agree play offense but hitting harder from the back of the court is how the pusher wins. One needs the typical anti-pusher approach; pressure on serve return, good approaches and volleys, and soft slices to bring pusher off baseline. These shots require more skill than standing behind baseline with good legs. A guy willing to stay back with ungodly patience to get the ball back is tough. Hence these threads.
