Lost to Pusher/Windy Day

MCHaker

New User
Mostly coming to vent and see if ya’ll have any tried and true strategies in this situation.

To set the stage, it’s 40 degrees with wind chill with swirling winds and constant gusts of 25mph.

I’m playing #1 singles for my league. Haven’t had any tournament play (used to be ranked in high school) in a while but been playing pretty consistently for the last 6mos or so. Player I’m competeting with is an older guy, but in good shape and able to track most balls down.

Can’t toss the ball too high b/c of wind, struggling to get any pace on serve and end up just slicing most in which he returns fairly easily. No pace on returns.

So i realize the style I’m playing against and think I’ll start slicing a lot back, making him play extra points and come to the net. Fairly conservative on my approaches (b/c wind) and would get dink lobbed or tapped down the line. So he has both of those shots.

Even on his serve Im just outside the service line to return. But he’s consistent.

I’m honeslty not even sure where I started losing. Before you know it Im down a set. Felt like I had to stand halway between service line and baseline the whole match and either slice, drop or play a mini tennis forehand. Couldnt get into a rally. Wind would blow balls out or cause mishits in addition to my own unforced errors.

Really frustrating day on court for me, it’s rare that I’m not happy to be playing but today was one of those days. Worst part is I couln’t even play my game while it seems like the weather really helped this guy out.

I dont think my frustration spilled out onto court and affected my game, but its clear that I don’t having the strategy I need to play these types of players. I hit with pretty conventional players usually (4.0 level) and honestly I was suprised encountering this style. But he bettered me nonetheless. It’s been so long since I’v played a pusher. What should I do differently?
 
Since Im apparently a “pusher”.... here’s my advice:

The key to beating a pusher is to make them aggressive. That means not just slowing down the game to their level, but slowing it down even further.

The pusher uses your pace to his advantage. Take that away & then some.

Then slowly increase the pace. The pusher will follow or even try to be the one dictating the pace increase. This is not their strong suit.

Play the cat & mouse game within the game. As long as you can stay on point, then your better skills will win out in the law of averages.

You have to be patient and constantly aware of who & when the gas is being applied by and adjust on the fly. Sometimes in a single rally the pendulum might swing 3-4 times. The player conscious of it is at the advantage.

That’s how you break down a pusher imo.
 
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Go for wider targets when playing in wind and be patient. Bring him to net, lob, and be PATIENT. You will get your opportunities but he will always get 3-4 more balls back in play then the average opponent. Serve and volley. Make him go for an aggressive pass. You are not going to outlast him, so don’t aggravate yourself trying to beat him at his game.


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I like to make them move to the net a lot with short slices and drop shots and on the next shot I usually get the option to pass or lob them. Also use angled shots to draw them out wide.
 
I like to make them move to the net a lot with short slices and drop shots and on the next shot I usually get the option to pass or lob them. Also use angled shots to draw them out wide.

Not gonna work if they can dink down the line consistently.

I like the suggestion the above poster made in coming to the net / asking the pusher to make aggressive pass thru shots.
 
Not gonna work if they can dink down the line consistently.

I like the suggestion the above poster made in coming to the net / asking the pusher to make aggressive pass thru shots.
Of course it will work if you do it well enough. Federer does it a lot and his opponents can dink it down the line for sure better than this pusher.
 
Mostly coming to vent and see if ya’ll have any tried and true strategies in this situation.

To set the stage, it’s 40 degrees with wind chill with swirling winds and constant gusts of 25mph.

I’m playing #1 singles for my league. Haven’t had any tournament play (used to be ranked in high school) in a while but been playing pretty consistently for the last 6mos or so. Player I’m competeting with is an older guy, but in good shape and able to track most balls down.

Can’t toss the ball too high b/c of wind, struggling to get any pace on serve and end up just slicing most in which he returns fairly easily. No pace on returns.

So i realize the style I’m playing against and think I’ll start slicing a lot back, making him play extra points and come to the net. Fairly conservative on my approaches (b/c wind) and would get dink lobbed or tapped down the line. So he has both of those shots.

Even on his serve Im just outside the service line to return. But he’s consistent.

I’m honeslty not even sure where I started losing. Before you know it Im down a set. Felt like I had to stand halway between service line and baseline the whole match and either slice, drop or play a mini tennis forehand. Couldnt get into a rally. Wind would blow balls out or cause mishits in addition to my own unforced errors.

Really frustrating day on court for me, it’s rare that I’m not happy to be playing but today was one of those days. Worst part is I couln’t even play my game while it seems like the weather really helped this guy out.

I dont think my frustration spilled out onto court and affected my game, but its clear that I don’t having the strategy I need to play these types of players. I hit with pretty conventional players usually (4.0 level) and honestly I was suprised encountering this style. But he bettered me nonetheless. It’s been so long since I’v played a pusher. What should I do differently?

Next time prepare yourself to suffer and be more patient
The drop shot would have forced to move to net
 
Next time prepare yourself to suffer and be more patient
The drop shot would have forced to move to net
I feel like this is the answer. I was impatient, if I would’ve gone in knowing this match was going to be long, drawn out it may have been different
 
Deep to the BH and come in. If he lobs, hang out closer to the service line.

You beat pushers by being at the net most of the time. Unless you have a great drop shot. Otherwise I find trying to bring them to the net is a fools errand. They will come in push something deep then back up to the baseline again. If someone can't rip one past you, the best place to be is at the net.

I find bringing someone in works best for the baseline basher. They often overhit the shot angled balls.
 
Slicing back to a pusher is almost never the right play unless you short angle it. Most of them want to cut the ball and slicing a slice is the easiest thing in the world for them to do.

Heavy topspin to whichever side they don’t defend as well from (a lot of times it’s their forehand). Over and over. Body blow after body blow. Wait for the short ball and use some geometry to put it where they ain’t.

Easier said than done.
 
First you have to figure out if the wind is bothering him more than you: if so, you want to extend the rallies to maximize his frustration.

If you are the one more bothered, you should attack the net: taking the ball before the bounce just eliminates one more variable that the wind can affect. The drawback is that you know the lob is coming, and lobs which are difficult to deal with under ideal conditions then become even more devilish. Maybe don't come in quite as far but hang out around the SL.

Wind can make all of us look foolish.
 
Mostly coming to vent and see if ya’ll have any tried and true strategies in this situation.

To set the stage, it’s 40 degrees with wind chill with swirling winds and constant gusts of 25mph.

I’m playing #1 singles for my league. Haven’t had any tournament play (used to be ranked in high school) in a while but been playing pretty consistently for the last 6mos or so. Player I’m competeting with is an older guy, but in good shape and able to track most balls down.

Can’t toss the ball too high b/c of wind, struggling to get any pace on serve and end up just slicing most in which he returns fairly easily. No pace on returns.

So i realize the style I’m playing against and think I’ll start slicing a lot back, making him play extra points and come to the net. Fairly conservative on my approaches (b/c wind) and would get dink lobbed or tapped down the line. So he has both of those shots.

Even on his serve Im just outside the service line to return. But he’s consistent.

I’m honeslty not even sure where I started losing. Before you know it Im down a set. Felt like I had to stand halway between service line and baseline the whole match and either slice, drop or play a mini tennis forehand. Couldnt get into a rally. Wind would blow balls out or cause mishits in addition to my own unforced errors.

Really frustrating day on court for me, it’s rare that I’m not happy to be playing but today was one of those days. Worst part is I couln’t even play my game while it seems like the weather really helped this guy out.

I dont think my frustration spilled out onto court and affected my game, but its clear that I don’t having the strategy I need to play these types of players. I hit with pretty conventional players usually (4.0 level) and honestly I was suprised encountering this style. But he bettered me nonetheless. It’s been so long since I’v played a pusher. What should I do differently?

As someone who has been labeled a "dinker" by someone I beat during Flex League before, even though I really don't think I am, I will tell you the two things that make me nervous. When I'm playing someone who doesn't make a lot of unforced errors and/or someone who knows when to come to the net. The best way to beat someone pushing it is to be very consistent, that will make the pusher nervous because the pusher is used to winning a lot of points off of unforced. And if you come to the net and put away some of the pusher's weaker shots, that will make the pusher nervous. Missed volleys are what the pusher wants, though, so make your net game, especially your overheads, are up to par.

I know it sounds counterintuitive to try to out-rally the pusher, and you really shouldn't do it unless you are really set on not missing, but if you start having 40 stroke rallies with a pusher, I promise you that the pusher will start to get nervous because you aren't hitting an unforced error after like the tenth ball of the rally.
 
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It’s tempting to make those players run corner to corner, but I’ve found that tends to be a fools mission. They never tire out and often end up hitting some goofy shot on the run that forces you into a bad position. I find more success relentlessly pressuring one corner until they either hit something short or I can create a big enough opening to go for a winner. It’s worth watching their shoulders - if you’ve pushed them far enough one way that they turn their shoulders to get back to the middle, then hit a big shot behind them.

Of course, key to this is making it count when you have the opening. If you don’t, they run it down and it starts all over again.
 
As someone who has been labeled a "dinker" by someone I beat during Flex League before, even though I really don't think I am, I will tell you the two things that make me nervous. When I'm playing someone who doesn't make a lot of unforced errors and/or someone who knows when to come to the net. The best way to beat someone pushing it is to be very consistent, that will make the pusher nervous because the pusher is used to winning a lot of points off of unforced. And if you come to the net and put away some of the pusher's weaker shots, that will make the pusher nervous. Missed volleys are what the pusher wants, though, so make your net game, especially your overheads, are up to par.

I know it sounds counterintuitive to try to out-rally the pusher, and you really shouldn't do it unless you are really set on not missing, but if you start having 40 stroke rallies with a pusher, I promise you that the pusher will start to get nervous because you aren't hitting an unforced error after like the tenth ball of the rally.

This is perfect advice.
 
As someone who has been labeled a "dinker" by someone I beat during Flex League before

Isn't it funny how criticisms or back-handed compliments like these come out after the person has lost?

Other classics are:
- That wasn't real tennis
- You'll never improve if you don't develop some weapons
- My technique is so much better
- You keep hitting the ball in the wrong place
- I can't get any rhythm when I play you
- I can keep up with X [who is a level or two better than I which means I must be better than you]
- etc

Let's face it: it's a defense mechanism to protect the ego. We've all done it. I've done it. Ostapenko did it when she lost to Radwanska. The mentally tough will pick themselves up, learn from the loss, and move on.
 
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Man oh man have I heard those comments. Thanks to your encouragement I am officially done with listening to anyone’s advice when they’re handing down those ridiculous “lessons”.
 
Isn't it funny how criticisms or back-handed compliments like these come out after the person has lost?

Other classics are:
- That wasn't real tennis
- You'll never improve if you don't develop some weapons
- My technique is so much better
- You keep hitting the ball in the wrong place
- I can't get any rhythm when I play you
- I can keep up with X [who is a level or two better than I which means I must be better than you]
- etc

Let's face it: it's a defense mechanism to protect the ego. We've all done it. I've done it. Ostapenko did it when she lost to Radwanska. The mentally tough will pick themselves up, learn from the loss, and move on.

Yep, I was basically told I wasn't playing "real" tennis and that basically I should learn how to play the right way. Meanwhile, I played a friend the other night, and he was telling me how much I have improved and how I wasn't pushing at all. In reality, I would prefer to push because it's just easier to win if the other player is making unforced errors than for me to have to hit winners, but when I have to, I can hit winners.

But, when my opponent either is hitting a bunch of unforced errors, or if I think that my opponent doesn't like softer balls, and I'm determined to win, of course I will hit low-risk shots and wait for my opponent to hit a bunch of unforced errors.
 
Man oh man have I heard those comments. Thanks to your encouragement I am officially done with listening to anyone’s advice when they’re handing down those ridiculous “lessons”.

The one in the bunch that I think has merit, even though it's usually couched in a snarky fashion, is the "weapons" one: being consistent and relying on opponent UEs will help you dominate up through 4.0. Even at 4.5, I've seen some big hitters that could potentially melt down against a pusher.

After that, it's usually not enough. It's certainly an important factor but to keep pace with an upper-4.5 and beyond, you do need to develop those weapons.
 
But, when my opponent either is hitting a bunch of unforced errors, or if I think that my opponent doesn't like softer balls, and I'm determined to win, of course I will hit low-risk shots and wait for my opponent to hit a bunch of unforced errors.

Some might call this "intelligent tennis": why take more risk than needed to win a match?

For a counterpoint, see my reply to R1FF about weapons.
 
Some might call this "intelligent tennis": why take more risk than needed to win a match?

For a counterpoint, see my reply to R1FF about weapons.
Yep, for sure. I have actually worked on developing my passing shots (not just my lob) and really tried to make my backhand especially a weapon, because I've realized that above the 4.0 level, pushing won't get you too many games.
 
The one in the bunch that I think has merit, even though it's usually couched in a snarky fashion, is the "weapons" one: being consistent and relying on opponent UEs will help you dominate up through 4.0. Even at 4.5, I've seen some big hitters that could potentially melt down against a pusher.

After that, it's usually not enough. It's certainly an important factor but to keep pace with an upper-4.5 and beyond, you do need to develop those weapons.

I agree of course. But the match isnt the place to “develop” weapons. That’s the place to use what tools I have.

The equivalent would be for me to tell my opponent that he could chase down more balls if he lost weight. So stop drinking water during the match. You’ll be lighter after u sweat, and be fast. That would be dumb.

I may be a pusher. I may always play defensive. But it’s gonna take time to develop weapons and Im not gonna use them until they actually work.

None the less, they are absolutely necessary. Last summer I played my best match ever. Lost 0-6, 0-6 to a solid 5.0

He was fast enough, 10 yrs younger than me, never made mistakes, and seemed to always have a little left in his back pocket.

My serve was on fire. I was hitting all my shots. It was 110 degrees. And yet nothing I did worked.

My pace wasnt enough to make him respect me. I couldnt crack him mentally. And even my best winners never seemed to get by him.

It was a flawless performance by both of us, respectively. But he was just that much better than me at most aspects & equal to me in other areas where Im normally the stronger competitor.

My strengths had been muted. My weaknesses amplified.

I knew then how much better I’d need to get offensively.

(He did ask if I’d be his doubles partner tho, which was pretty cool, even tho I hate doubles)
 
It’s tempting to make those players run corner to corner, but I’ve found that tends to be a fools mission. They never tire out and often end up hitting some goofy shot on the run that forces you into a bad position. I find more success relentlessly pressuring one corner until they either hit something short or I can create a big enough opening to go for a winner. It’s worth watching their shoulders - if you’ve pushed them far enough one way that they turn their shoulders to get back to the middle, then hit a big shot behind them.

Of course, key to this is making it count when you have the opening. If you don’t, they run it down and it starts all over again.

Man, this shoulder turn awareness is superb advice against ANY level of player. I routinely get burned by the 4.5 I play with for this very reason. Along with "moving in when they turn away to chase down a shot," this is a great tactic for taking charge of a point.
 
Man, this shoulder turn awareness is superb advice against ANY level of player. I routinely get burned by the 4.5 I play with for this very reason. Along with "moving in when they turn away to chase down a shot," this is a great tactic for taking charge of a point.

Yep. One of my big weaknesses is not moving in for the kill. I get caught admiring my shot instead of coming to net where I’d easily put away their return.

I probably waste 10 points per match doing this right now. It needs to get fixed ASAP.
 
Man, this shoulder turn awareness is superb advice against ANY level of player. I routinely get burned by the 4.5 I play with for this very reason. Along with "moving in when they turn away to chase down a shot," this is a great tactic for taking charge of a point.

The quicker the opponent is, the more effective hitting behind them will be.
 
I agree of course. But the match isnt the place to “develop” weapons. That’s the place to use what tools I have.

The equivalent would be for me to tell my opponent that he could chase down more balls if he lost weight. So stop drinking water during the match. You’ll be lighter after u sweat, and be fast. That would be dumb.

I may be a pusher. I may always play defensive. But it’s gonna take time to develop weapons and Im not gonna use them until they actually work.

Agreed. I was thinking about development in practice [although, as your development progresses, you can deploy them sparingly in matches to test them out; don't wait for mastery because that might never arrive.].
 
This is perfect advice.
I like this strategy a lot, and its something I could’ve implemented but didnt. If I have another match this Saturday last this one I’ll definitely get it a shot. I was trying more slice, side to side then go for big winner. Completely left out the mental side of siking your opponent out.
 
They never tire out and often end up hitting some goofy shot on the run that forces you into a bad poosition.

Man this hits home. So many points went this way that a couple times I just kinda threw my hands up as if to say that didnt look like it shoul’ve worked out in accordance with the unversal laws of physics but good shot i guess. wind didn’t help either. Frustrating day, and my cardio game aint what it once was. Overall though good experience, glad it happened and identified some areas for improvement.
 
First you have to figure out if the wind is bothering him more than you: if so, you want to extend the rallies to maximize his frustration.

If you are the one more bothered, you should attack the net: taking the ball before the bounce just eliminates one more variable that the wind can affect. The drawback is that you know the lob is coming, and lobs which are difficult to deal with under ideal conditions then become even more devilish. Maybe don't come in quite as far but hang out around the SL.

Wind can make all of us look foolish.
Thx man, kinda needed to hear I wasn’t the only one lol. I had two left feet out there. Good advice as well appreciate it
 
Man oh man have I heard those comments. Thanks to your encouragement I am officially done with listening to anyone’s advice when they’re handing down those ridiculous “lessons”.
All that matters at the end of the match is the score! Which is why I’m t.o’d haha. Pushing is a completely legitimate style of play. You’re not going to see it in the pros because those guys have all the tools to defeat it, but I know I struggled with them starting out and I guess I am again now and that’s exactly why these guys do it because they can win — and winning ugly is still a W
 
But he bettered me nonetheless. It’s been so long since I’v played a pusher. What should I do differently?
Forgive me if I repeat something, but there's a lot of conversation here.

Windy days can be a nightmare to play in, and rough conditions naturally tend to favor the more consistent player. Your objective is understanding how to play more conservative to satisfy the elements, but without trying to beat this person at their own game. I'm going to differ from some of the posters here, and tell you that's a bad idea. You wouldn't start overhitting to try and "keep up" with someone who plays undisciplined, and you shouldn't do it here either.

A common problem for casual tennis players is being able to adapt their game, at all. When you have to adjust as significantly as is required to play in high winds against a "pusher" there's a lot to overcome. For the sake of understanding, when I say "pusher" I'm referring to a player who has no specific weapons. This person will likely run the baseline well, but they don't do anything special with placement or generating a winner. Their game is dependent upon you making errors to win points.

So i realize the style I’m playing against and think I’ll start slicing a lot back, making him play extra points and come to the net.
This is a good start. I agree with others that you want to be cautious with the slice. If he handles it easily then don't use it much. Testing him by forcing his play to be "vertical" (up and back) in the court is a solid plan.

Even on his serve Im just outside the service line to return. But he’s consistent.
This is the second part, and where you're going to win against most "pushers". You have to setup opportunities to come to the net and force them to try and hit passing shots. In bad conditions, it's harder for you to generate angles, but if you're already at the service line it should be doable even in strong wind.

You've got options based on their skills. If they can lob effectively from the baseline when you go to their weaker side then hit the ball short. It's difficult for anyone to run up into the court, weak side, and get the ball around a well positioned player. You only need to be a few feet inside the service line to cut off most of the court.

You are not going to outlast him, so don’t aggravate yourself trying to beat him at his game.
Completely agree. The trick in these conditions (but really against any opponent) is finding the right mix of aggression and consistency.

It’s tempting to make those players run corner to corner, but I’ve found that tends to be a fools mission.
Agreed. Moving people around is rarely about wearing them out. You're trying to get them positioned in a difficult spot when you're able to come in to take a safer one. The difference in hitting a groundstroke from even a few steps inside the baseline and being a step behind it is incredible.

It’s worth watching their shoulders - if you’ve pushed them far enough one way that they turn their shoulders to get back to the middle, then hit a big shot behind them.
Great tip in this situation, and actually something I'd recommend you be looking for all the time. When you get players to turn their shoulders (or god forbid their back), you're taking control of the point. Be prepared to go for 'your shot'. And that leads into my last piece of advice.

The difference between a "pusher" and a strong, consistent player is just having a couple weapons. You won't be inventing these during the match of course, but you should have some way of closing points that you're always comfortable with. It might be stepping inside the baseline to hit a cross-court winner or really anything. You will find these weapons even more useful though during difficult matches, because you can try and force players to allow you to use them. It can become second nature to try and think about how to exploit your strength, and you'll naturally be targeting their weaknesses to do so. Don't be afraid to schedule some time with a pro to help you figure out what that weapon can be and how you're going to develop it.
 
Yep. One of my big weaknesses is not moving in for the kill. I get caught admiring my shot instead of coming to net where I’d easily put away their return.

I probably waste 10 points per match doing this right now. It needs to get fixed ASAP.

Federer is so good at being ready to pounce when he has his opponent pressured by a shot to the corner. During one of the rare rallies with Isner in Miami he was progressively moving John wider and wider, and each time he was taking a half step forward and then retreating because the shot wasn’t quite good enough to approach behind.

After three or four shots he got John wide enough and was on the net in a flash to finish him off with an easy volley. Not a single shot too soon - or too late.

It was a great demonstration of being on your toes ready to react when you are dictating the point, and of moving forward even before you know if it’s a good shot to follow to the net. You can always adjust back if needed.
 
Mostly coming to vent and see if ya’ll have any tried and true strategies in this situation.

To set the stage, it’s 40 degrees with wind chill with swirling winds and constant gusts of 25mph.

I’m playing #1 singles for my league. Haven’t had any tournament play (used to be ranked in high school) in a while but been playing pretty consistently for the last 6mos or so. Player I’m competeting with is an older guy, but in good shape and able to track most balls down.

Can’t toss the ball too high b/c of wind, struggling to get any pace on serve and end up just slicing most in which he returns fairly easily. No pace on returns.

So i realize the style I’m playing against and think I’ll start slicing a lot back, making him play extra points and come to the net. Fairly conservative on my approaches (b/c wind) and would get dink lobbed or tapped down the line. So he has both of those shots.

Even on his serve Im just outside the service line to return. But he’s consistent.

I’m honeslty not even sure where I started losing. Before you know it Im down a set. Felt like I had to stand halway between service line and baseline the whole match and either slice, drop or play a mini tennis forehand. Couldnt get into a rally. Wind would blow balls out or cause mishits in addition to my own unforced errors.

Really frustrating day on court for me, it’s rare that I’m not happy to be playing but today was one of those days. Worst part is I couln’t even play my game while it seems like the weather really helped this guy out.

I dont think my frustration spilled out onto court and affected my game, but its clear that I don’t having the strategy I need to play these types of players. I hit with pretty conventional players usually (4.0 level) and honestly I was suprised encountering this style. But he bettered me nonetheless. It’s been so long since I’v played a pusher. What should I do differently?
Playing a pusher is probably the best free tennis lesson you’ll ever have so try to learn from it :)

Sure there are tips and tactics you can use, but do you really want to alter your game in order to hide your strengths? Yes, strengths.
 
The best advice I ever got in playing against pushers is to be patient and work the point. If you can be patient and work them around you can find what they dont handle well and it creates openings for you to take the net and finish the point off. The problem with that is the wind can affect your ability to be consistently hit good shots.
 
As a pusher/junk baller, windy and cold days almost always work to my advantage.
Honestly, as someone who has also been labeled a pusher, windy days actually work against me and here is why: consistency is harder in windy conditions and especially if the wind is going against me and the ball is landing short, it can actually produce a lot of short balls that aggressive players can take advantage of.
For me, a pusher's biggest advantage is the ability to consistently hit deep shots, and if the ball starts landing short, then aggressive players can take advantage.
Another thing to consider, when I am in windy conditions, I am not able to hit the ball cleanly, which leads to more unforced errors, which leads me to feel less in control of my game, which as someone who is very consistent, is an uncomfortable feeling for me.

So, I guess what this comes down to is it really depends on the specific consistent player how adverse conditions can affect the person's play.
 
If you push with slice, windy days rule. If you push with loopy topspin or flat bunty shots, windy days are terrible.

I'm generally not a pusher but on windy days, I'm pulling out the wicked slices and letting the wind curve them and make them bounce all over the place. Really screws with the opponents rhythm. That's a side wind situation. if the wind is traveling in the direction of the court then its heavy topspin downwind and curvy low slices and drop shots into the wind.
 
Yeah, I think patience is the key. And, for me I try to mix it up and hit a variety of shots to find a weakness (they have one). But taking pace off and hitting drop shots work well for me.
It will likely be a long match...
 
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