Low margin over the net or higher margin? What's your preference?

dct693

dct693

Semi-Pro
This morning I hit with an "older" woman who played totally flat shots, some barely clearing the net. This compared to my "loopy" topspin shots that cleared the net by a huge margin.

Her shots, while they had good pace, generally presented no problems to me returning them (except for a few really low shots that skimmed the top of the net where I had to pick them up with my SW grip forehand).

This was the first time I hit with her and I did not hit any shots particularly hard and kept things relaxed. I did not even crush the "sitters" she popped up on her backhand (which was non-existent).

At the end, she gave me some friendly advice to keep my balls lower to the net so I could hit with more pace. I cringed, but smiled. (REALLY? How about you pop up another sitter and I'll show you the pace I can put on it?)

Anyway, since I started hitting with more topspin, I RARELY hit balls into the net. That to me, is the worst error of all. Thoughts? Do you give "friendly" advice to people you've just met? Especially advice more inline with the tennis playing style of a different era?
 
When I flatten out I will inevitably hit the net or long due to low net clearance. I will try and hit higher net clearance depending on the situation. The only time for low net clearance is slice,down the line/sharp angle or an aggressive shot.
 
Her advice is sound and true. If you want to hit harder you have to flatten the trajectory even with a lot of topspin. There's limit how hard you can hit depending on the launch angle of the trajectory unless you can dramatically increase the topspin rate consistently like Nadal.

And against commonly held belief, a flatter trajectory shots are more accurate and thus suitable in controlling the point.

If you want to improve anything beyond simple consistency, you have to start hitting harder a little closer to the net. Not grazing but a foot or two above instead of 5 or 6.
 
It depends. I use a forehand that has good topspin and clearance, and a 1hbh that has losts of backspin and often very small clearances, but it is consistant and effective.
Actually I do hit flat fairly often. I play right on the baseline, so I hit a lot of baseline half volley type shots, and those are pretty flat.
I've found the most effective style involves many different styles. Topspin and slice groundstrokes, regularly coming to net, good lobbing, approach shots that are vary between deep and short, you name it. So much of tennis is about being able to show your opponent something they are not used to or have a hard time with.
 
Aretium said:
When I flatten out I will inevitably hit the net or long due to low net clearance. I will try and hit higher net clearance depending on the situation. The only time for low net clearance is slice,down the line/sharp angle or an aggressive shot.
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Agreed. On my 1HBH slice I hit much lower to the net because the shot hangs more. But it's a consistently slower shot than a flat shot with pace (which I was being criticized for not producing). Plus I was attempting not to be aggressive in my shots with this opponent.
 
She's just playing a different brand of tennis. I hit with a guy with similar shots, except he can get enough pace on the ball and take balls early enough that his shots steal a lot of setup time. Still, it's a low margin game. There's a small window between getting it over and hitting it out. I hit a modern ball back to him, except I'm not backing off on the pace. My buddy has experienced how much pace you can get on a modern ball and still keep it in.

And, I never give unsolicited advice. But I'm sure she meant well.
 
boramiNYC said:
Her advice is sound and true. If you want to hit harder you have to flatten the trajectory even with a lot of topspin. There's limit how hard you can hit depending on the launch angle of the trajectory unless you can dramatically increase the topspin rate consistently like Nadal.

And against commonly held belief, a flatter trajectory shots are more accurate and thus suitable in controlling the point.

If you want to improve anything beyond simple consistency, you have to start hitting harder a little closer to the net. Not grazing but a foot or two above instead of 5 or 6.
Click to expand...

I agree, if I had been trying to hit the ball harder. She didn't seem to realize that I was hitting easy, consistent, but deep replies to her (whereas some of her shots went dribbling into the net or were relatively short in court).
 
rkelley said:
She's just playing a different brand of tennis. I hit with a guy with similar shots, except he can get enough pace on the ball and take balls early enough that his shots steal a lot of setup time. Still, it's a low margin game. There's a small window between getting it over and hitting it out. I hit a modern ball back to him, except I'm not backing off on the pace. My buddy has experienced how much pace you can get on a modern ball and still keep it in.

And, I never give unsolicited advice. But I'm sure she meant well.
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I have no doubt she meant well. I just laughed to myself because she was sort of saying, "Do you know you could hit the ball harder if you hit it lower over the net?" And I was thinking, "Or if I didn't dial it back to 70% of my normal pace so I wouldn't smoke you?"
 
When given advice it is always best to smile and say, Thank you.
What you do with the advice after that is a different matter and up to you;)
 
Captain Ron said:
When given advice it is always best to smile and say, Thank you.
What you do with the advice after that is a different matter and up to you;)
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I didn't say thank you, but I didn't object either. I told her why I hit balls higher, basically that I wanted the consistency. In my opinion, I was more consistent that she was during our session, and I believe I achieved my goal.
 
You should try to learn both.
Loopy topspin to sustain a rally and give high balls to your opponent.
Flat low shots for faster moving ball to penetrate the court and hit winners.
Use the low shots against net rusher's.
Use the loopy shots against guys who don't like hitting high balls.
 
When Im well set, I try to flatten out everything. If cant penetrate, I would try vipers and short angles as a variety. When pushed to one side, then I try to hit with bigger margin
 
LeeD said:
You should try to learn both.
Loopy topspin to sustain a rally and give high balls to your opponent.
Flat low shots for faster moving ball to penetrate the court and hit winners.
Use the low shots against net rusher's.
Use the loopy shots against guys who don't like hitting high balls.
Click to expand...

Agree. I do use both, in context. I hit low when opponents approach the next to hit their shoes and make them hit a tough volley. That's when I hit a lot of balls into the net! :(
 
dct693 said:
I have no doubt she meant well. I just laughed to myself because she was sort of saying, "Do you know you could hit the ball harder if you hit it lower over the net?" And I was thinking, "Or if I didn't dial it back to 70% of my normal pace so I wouldn't smoke you?"
Click to expand...

that happens a lot when you lower your normal game to play lower level players. They think that's all you got :shock:
 
That's why I'm the snob I am.
Hitting with lower level players, you need to back off the power and spin in order to sustain some kind of rally.
 
dct693 said:
Thoughts? Do you give "friendly" advice to people you've just met? Especially advice more inline with the tennis playing style of a different era?
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I usually don't give advice on the court unless it's in the context of a lesson.

I'm watching Berdych play Lopez in China and the flat playing styles of Soderling, Del Potro and Berdych can be quite effective. I grew up in the old era so I can hit the ball flat or with a lot of topspin. In a match you want to use the approach that your opponent has more trouble with. It's also not a bad idea to play against a variety of styles so that you won't be surprised by different styles.

As they say when another parent tells you what college your kids should go to: smile and nod, smile and nod.
 
dct693 said:
I have no doubt she meant well. I just laughed to myself because she was sort of saying, "Do you know you could hit the ball harder if you hit it lower over the net?" And I was thinking, "Or if I didn't dial it back to 70% of my normal pace so I wouldn't smoke you?"
Click to expand...

wow you are really proud of your ability to crush middle aged women:D.
 
dct693 said:
This morning I hit with an "older" woman who played totally flat shots, some barely clearing the net. This compared to my "loopy" topspin shots that cleared the net by a huge margin.

Her shots, while they had good pace, generally presented no problems to me returning them (except for a few really low shots that skimmed the top of the net where I had to pick them up with my SW grip forehand).

This was the first time I hit with her and I did not hit any shots particularly hard and kept things relaxed. I did not even crush the "sitters" she popped up on her backhand (which was non-existent).

At the end, she gave me some friendly advice to keep my balls lower to the net so I could hit with more pace. I cringed, but smiled. (REALLY? How about you pop up another sitter and I'll show you the pace I can put on it?)

Anyway, since I started hitting with more topspin, I RARELY hit balls into the net. That to me, is the worst error of all. Thoughts? Do you give "friendly" advice to people you've just met? Especially advice more inline with the tennis playing style of a different era?
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't agree with her advice. Pace isn't necessary, hitting deep is. Your rally ball should have good net clearance, plenty of topspin, and land within the last 3' of the court. It also needs to avoid the "danger zone" which is approximately an 8' x 8' square area around the center of the service line "T".

If you can hit that ball consistently without fail, then you'll be very difficult to beat.

If you only hit flat strokes with a lot of pace, then you'll almost never be able to avoid that center danger zone. Leave any ball near the center T and you're dealing with an on-coming winner or very difficult approach shot which pulls you off the court.
 
Ideally you should have both shots in your arsenal.

If you only have the high trajectory ball, you'll find it difficult to close out points.

But between the two, if you can only have one, the high margin shot is better because tennis is after all a percentage game.
 
LeeD said:
You should try to learn both.
Loopy topspin to sustain a rally and give high balls to your opponent.
Flat low shots for faster moving ball to penetrate the court and hit winners.
Use the low shots against net rusher's.
Use the loopy shots against guys who don't like hitting high balls.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree with this as well. No need to go for winners if you're standing behind the baseline: keep up your deep rally shots until you're pulled into the court. Once you've got both your feet inside the court, then its time to start flattening out, going for angles, creating space and trying for winners.

But if you're 5' behind the baseline and you're hitting flat shots with low net clearance, I'll bet $100 that all your shots are landing short. No way to win matches like that.
 
You need to vary the height over the net.

Passing shots or aggressive baseline shots or approach shots should go low over the net - like 1 to 2 feet over the center strap.

Typically baseline rally shot should go higher like 3 feet over the center strap.

Defensive shots where you are pushed back say 4 or more feet behind the baseline need to higher over the center strap - like 5-6 feet.

Of course, lobs go really high.

If you are stepping inside the baseline and trying to be aggressive with your shot, you should aim about 1-2 feet over the net.
 
anubis said:
Personally, I don't agree with her advice. Pace isn't necessary, hitting deep is. Your rally ball should have good net clearance, plenty of topspin, and land within the last 3' of the court. It also needs to avoid the "danger zone" which is approximately an 8' x 8' square area around the center of the service line "T".

If you can hit that ball consistently without fail, then you'll be very difficult to beat.

If you only hit flat strokes with a lot of pace, then you'll almost never be able to avoid that center danger zone. Leave any ball near the center T and you're dealing with an on-coming winner or very difficult approach shot which pulls you off the court.
Click to expand...

Your rally ball does not need to land in the last three feet of the court. Watch any pro match. This is not happening.
 
dominikk1985 said:
wow you are really proud of your ability to crush middle aged women:D.
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Hey middle aged women who are good in tennis can hurt you if you just return the low pace balls right back at them.

General Westmoreland said "it takes the full strength of a tiger to kill a rabbit." :shock: :)
 
I like ash's new theory that the ball should be rising at baseline. Pro's can do it with shorter balls; nadal gets away with service line hits.... Lacking that type of spin; depth rules and short balls are going to put you in a world of hurt with a good opponent.
 
Topspin Shot said:
Your rally ball does not need to land in the last three feet of the court. Watch any pro match. This is not happening.
Click to expand...

I watch a lot of pro matches, I DVR almost every one on tennis channel. I think it is happening, but you've got to know what you're looking for. To the untrained eye, it might be difficult to discern between a rally ball and a flattened, high-pace shot. But I'm convinced that when the pro has a nice and high finish over the left shoulder, and he's 2 to 5 feet behind the baseline, his goal is to get as close to the opposite baseline as possible -- and with good net clearance.

And, most definitely, he's trying to avoid that center danger zone -- which, to a pro, is much larger than the typical rec player. That makes his target more difficult.
 
anubis said:
I watch a lot of pro matches, I DVR almost every one on tennis channel. I think it is happening, but you've got to know what you're looking for. To the untrained eye, it might be difficult to discern between a rally ball and a flattened, high-pace shot. But I'm convinced that when the pro has a nice and high finish over the left shoulder, and he's 2 to 5 feet behind the baseline, his goal is to get as close to the opposite baseline as possible -- and with good net clearance.

And, most definitely, he's trying to avoid that center danger zone -- which, to a pro, is much larger than the typical rec player. That makes his target more difficult.
Click to expand...

I agree he's trying to avoid the center zone. But he won't be aiming for three feet from the baseline. If he were, he'd miss long once for every time he drops the ball more than six feet from the baseline, and this doesn't happen.
 
I am a s&v, continental for everything, flat hitter. I can count the topspin revolutions on my groundies :). Low margin over the net for me.

Most of the guys I play with are in the 40-60 yr range, hit with Eastern or Semi Western Forehand, and medium topspin and medium range over the net.
 
tennisdad65 said:
I am a s&v, continental for everything, flat hitter. I can count the topspin revolutions on my groundies :). Low margin over the net for me.

Most of the guys I play with are in the 40-60 yr range, hit with Eastern or Semi Western Forehand, and medium topspin and medium range over the net.
Click to expand...

You called?
 
You should practice both..

This is very basic.. It's the same with the serve. Practice seeing how much clearance you can get while getting it in - then practice some flatter serves with no clearance..

For groundies I take the feeltennis guys advice and hit loopy in warmups. I tend to flatten it out some in games automatically..
 
Low margin can be good all the way up through Futures tournaments, beyond that you have no choice but to hit high over the net.

Or so I've overheard.
 
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anubis said:
But I'm convinced that when the pro has a nice and high finish over the left shoulder, and he's 2 to 5 feet behind the baseline, his goal is to get as close to the opposite baseline as possible -- and with good net clearance.
Click to expand...
hmmm. I don't think their goal is the baseline as much as the sidelines. Pros work the sidelines. From the graphics I find, ball strikes are grouped on either sideline. Very few will be in the 3 ft. baseline box.

(That said, and more importantly, I not certain this translates well to rec play. Rec players lack the movement, heavy pro ball and ability to change ball direction and therefore may be much better off keeping ball deep.)
 
During a baseline exchange, we don't ONLY hit offensive shots.
Oftentimes, our opponent's are hitting a forcing shot, we just try to get it back safely and defensively. On those shots, a little short is OK, as long as it bounces well past the baseline, and keeps the opponent BACK.
A little short is better than a little LONG, or OUT.
IDEAL groundstrokes are solely reserved for WII tennis.
 
Shot height depends entirely on what you are trying to do. The lady had a good point - flat shots can be hit harder closer to the net - but didn't understand that there are lots of effective ways of hitting a tennis ball.

Off the top of my head, everyone should know how to hit all of these shots:

Medium height over net ~4ft
- Used for regular mid pace rallying shots aiming for NML - it is safest to aim this height, as you are not risking a long ball due to lack of spin or a net cord.
- Floating sidespin slice - a slightly defensive shot.
- Put aways - this is about the ideal height for hitting really hard into the corners as long as long as you are hitting with spin

High over the net ~6ft
- Hitting really big targets with lots of topspin and decent depth. This is used push the opponent backwards
- Looping a flatter ball up high when defending to buy time - this is aimed close to the baseline in order to stop the opponent coming in too much and to buy more time to recover

Low over the net ~2ft
- Dictating by trying to aim for smaller (but still big) targets while hitting flatter (but swinging slower).
- Trying to drag the opponent off the court by hitting for the corner of the service box with heavy topspin (it needs to be low to make the angle)
- Hitting a decent low skidding slice
- Hitting a completely flat DTL big shot from shoulder height
 
LeeD said:
During a baseline exchange, we don't ONLY hit offensive shots.
Oftentimes, our opponent's are hitting a forcing shot, we just try to get it back safely and defensively. On those shots, a little short is OK, as long as it bounces well past the baseline, and keeps the opponent BACK.
A little short is better than a little LONG, or OUT.
IDEAL groundstrokes are solely reserved for WII tennis.
Click to expand...

I think I understand why you win more often at the net than from the backcourt if you are aiming groundstrokes well past the baseline! :twisted:
 
Learning to read? English your second language?
BOUNCES past the baseline is not landing past the baseline. The bounce can be service line short, and still bounce past the baseline if there is enough topspin and the ball is hit hard enough.
 
talking about the height of the ball, i recently played a doubles match against two old timers and their balls were 1-story high, seriously! :shock:
 
Personally I prefer flat shots, with the caveat, that during the last lesson, the new coach girl, suggested a more closed racket face on both sides (from E to more semi W on the FH and more closed on the 1HBH), so that I get more TS.
 
Lots of old timers hit low, deliberately short balls because moving forwards and reaching down is tough on old bodies.
Most old folkes can handle head high bouncing balls easily, just slicing them low short angled to the open court.
 
I like to play with a low net clearance, and take the ball from above net height. This lets me hit a more penetrating shot. Anyone can rally, it's a weapon to hit the ball flat and hard, with just the right amount of topspin.
 
If a person rallies high over the net and deep, with a lot of topspin, I tend play kind of the same balls back but when one lands shorter i'm gonna step in and flatten it out with nore pace to get him on the defence. If the occasion is there, I'll approach with a flat deep ball (or a slice). When someone plays a flatter rally ball, I'm also gonna play flatter because I can hit it more often in my ideal strike zone. But when on the defense I regularly thow up a high one to get back in position. When my confidence is up I sometimes go for flat FH's on the run for a counter attack. When he is coming to net it depends on the ball and his position wether I try to lob or shoot on the run.
 
uncle pollo said:
My balls get lower as i age.
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aren't they supposed to get higher? :)

some coach posted a youtube video on how to play pushers and he explained older folks do that so they would have time to get back to the center of the court, which makes sense to me.
 
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