Drop the racket head below the path of the ball, swing upwards.
Drop the racket head below the path of the ball, swing upwards.
Drop the racket head below the path of the ball, swing upwards.
Rotating, I mean the rotation that starts forward swing. When I try rotating to swing, I get a more horizantal(flat) swing path. How can I get it to become a low to high with rotation motion so I can get more spin?
The following video by biomechanical researcher Bruce Elliott on the forehand answers the question that you asked.
He says specifically that it is not a single low to high path. But it is more of a two path stroke. First, somewhat low to high approaching impact and then more upward just before or at impact. I believe that the 'turn the doorknob' (my interpretation) and sometimes internal shoulder rotation may be playing a part at around impact for added top spin.
View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand.
http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video
KayFactor, what type of grip are you using?
So I shouldn't attempt to get my racket really under the ball, but just a bit? I'll take a look at the video soon.
Elliott gives Nadal as an example - 40 d. up to the ball and 50 d. at, around or after impact.
I also like this Rick Macci video with the 'turn the door knob' analogy. This looks like a two path motion also.
http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...=10&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=Rick
I have done this 'turn the door knob' to get more top spin. However, I worry about forcing my wrist to do stuff and have had slight pain on some of my new forehand changes. I was advised in a thread to let the wrist just happen and be driven by larger body muscles and not to power with arm muscles around the wrist. (The Elliott video also has a lot to say about body turn starting at 27 minutes.) I believe that not muscling the wrist is a reasonable approach for me, so I'm going slow.
There are also grip issues as mentioned.
Drop the racket how? By straightening your arm at the elbow or by supinating the forearm?
Do I have to sign up for that website from your first post?
This one? You don't have to sign up. On the webpage there is a password provided at the top of the list of videos.
"View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand."
http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video
This one? You don't have to sign up. On the webpage there is a password provided at the top of the list of videos.
"View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand."
http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video
So when I rotate as it says in that video, do I still actively swing my racket up to and through contact? (with my arm) Or do I let the rotation swing my racket up to contact? To make it simple, do I rotate and then swing? or Swing while rotating?
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One of the most important keys in developing, lag, multisegments, stretch shortening etc, etc (many of the things Elliot is talking about) is NOT allowing the arm to rotate externally in the backswing.One of my basic questions is always the degree of loose arm to have. I am now studying that issue from the Elliott video, a 30 minute Macci forehand video from Tennis Channel, tennisoxygen videos on Youtube (63 detailed videos with stroke analysis), and others.
For example -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oc7U5oJ6ps
I believe, but am still researching, that the arm-wrist, mostly relaxed, is initially pulled along passively by the body turn and at first lags behind - but you need to study. Also, that my upper arm and racket must be much more up initially - as in all the pro strokes - than I am accustomed to.
Also, I have felt some discomfort in my wrist practicing forehands so I am going very slow regarding using a new ball machine that I just got. Looking at my EF grip also. See especially rely #6 by r2473.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=422414
One of the most important keys in developing, lag, multisegments, stretch shortening etc, etc (many of the things Elliot is talking about) is NOT allowing the arm to rotate externally in the backswing.
The entire arm. You want to suppress external shoulder rotation, supination of forearm, and extension of wrist, in the backswing.Do you mean the shoulder of the hitting arm?
The entire arm. You want to suppress external shoulder rotation, supination of forearm, and extension of wrist, in the backswing.
The entire arm. You want to suppress external shoulder rotation, supination of forearm, and extension of wrist, in the backswing.
Not sure how old this video is (looked at it briefly), but I would bet that he will change his tune, now that he is working (recently) with Brian Gordon.I'll have to check but I believe that Macci in the video has the wrist in extension (back of the hand bent upward toward the forearm). ?
No... supination, yes, external shoulder rotation no. Pronation before the forward acceleration happens to contract the muscles responsible for the external should rotation -- this enables the player to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the antagonist muscles (those responsible for internal shoulder rotation). Moving the arm past a simple unit turn doesn't hinder your stroke: if I want to be consistent, I must say it will help you swing harder.
What exactly is internal and external shoulder rotation?
In tennis, unfortunately, this motion has been mislabeled 'pronation'.
I don't know which people you speak about tennis with, but no one I can think of, who would use these terms, would be dumb enough to confound both. One originates at the elbow and involves the wrist joint and forearm; the other involves the arm, originating in the shoulder... Pronation is about turning your hand (well, elbow pronation, since there are more than one type of pronation), shoulder rotation is about turning your upper arm -- when they speak about pronation on the forehand or serve, they DO mean a forearm muscular action.
whoever you are quoting said:and end the line by placing a / in between [ and QUOTE in.
As for the issue, no one is poorly discussing both movement. Someone simply mentioned that internal shoulder rotation with arm up in the air also causes the hand to face the ground. In his opinion, people misused shoulder rotation and forearm movement as internal shoulder rotation can bring your hand into a different position which would look very much alike what pronation would have done, except that it's your arm and not your forearm which moved.
You can verify, agree or not, but he's not misusing the words (post 75)... furthermore, look at the picture he sent: there's a hand with all the movements involving the wrist joint. He can't put that up there and not know what differentiates pronation and internal shoulder rotation.
You can verify, agree or not, but he's not misusing the words (post 75)... furthermore, look at the picture he sent: there's a hand with all the movements involving the wrist joint. He can't put that up there and not know what differentiates pronation and internal shoulder rotation.
Ahh, pretty sure we're saying the same thing. If the forearm is pronating, the upper arm will not rotate externally. Look, here's the bottom line, throughout the loop backswing, the forearm should not supinate (rotate externally), neither should the shoulder, nor should the wrist extend. This all occurs when the the pull occurs (the flip) to commence the forward swing.No... supination, yes, external shoulder rotation no. Pronation before the forward acceleration happens to contract the muscles responsible for the external should rotation -- this enables the player to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the antagonist muscles (those responsible for internal shoulder rotation). Moving the arm past a simple unit turn doesn't hinder your stroke: if I want to be consistent, I must say it will help you swing harder.