Low to high with rotation(forehand)

KayFactor

Rookie
Rotating, I mean the rotation that starts forward swing. When I try rotating to swing, I get a more horizantal(flat) swing path. How can I get it to become a low to high with rotation motion so I can get more spin?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Rotating, I mean the rotation that starts forward swing. When I try rotating to swing, I get a more horizantal(flat) swing path. How can I get it to become a low to high with rotation motion so I can get more spin?

The following video by biomechanical researcher Bruce Elliott on the forehand answers the question that you asked.

He says specifically that it is not a single low to high path. But it is more of a two path stroke. First, somewhat low to high approaching impact and then more upward just before or at impact. I believe that the 'turn the doorknob' (my interpretation) and sometimes internal shoulder rotation may be playing a part at around impact for added top spin.

View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand.

http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video
 
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KayFactor

Rookie
The following video by biomechanical researcher Bruce Elliott on the forehand answers the question that you asked.

He says specifically that it is not a single low to high path. But it is more of a two path stroke. First, somewhat low to high approaching impact and then more upward just before or at impact. I believe that the 'turn the doorknob' (my interpretation) and sometimes internal shoulder rotation may be playing a part at around impact for added top spin.

View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand.

http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video

So I shouldn't attempt to get my racket really under the ball, but just a bit? I'll take a look at the video soon.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
So I shouldn't attempt to get my racket really under the ball, but just a bit? I'll take a look at the video soon.

Elliott gives Nadal as an example - 40 d. up to the ball and 50 d. at, around or after impact.

I also like this Rick Macci video with the 'turn the door knob' analogy. This looks like a two path motion also.

http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...=10&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=Rick

I have done this 'turn the door knob' to get more top spin. However, I worry about forcing my wrist to do stuff and have had slight pain on some of my new forehand changes. I was advised in a thread to let the wrist just happen and be driven by larger body muscles and not to power with arm muscles around the wrist. (The Elliott video also has a lot to say about body turn starting at 27 minutes.) I believe that not muscling the wrist is a reasonable approach for me, so I'm going slow.

There are also grip issues as mentioned.
 
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KayFactor

Rookie
Elliott gives Nadal as an example - 40 d. up to the ball and 50 d. at, around or after impact.

I also like this Rick Macci video with the 'turn the door knob' analogy. This looks like a two path motion also.

http://www.tennisresources.com/inde...=10&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=Rick

I have done this 'turn the door knob' to get more top spin. However, I worry about forcing my wrist to do stuff and have had slight pain on some of my new forehand changes. I was advised in a thread to let the wrist just happen and be driven by larger body muscles and not to power with arm muscles around the wrist. (The Elliott video also has a lot to say about body turn starting at 27 minutes.) I believe that not muscling the wrist is a reasonable approach for me, so I'm going slow.

There are also grip issues as mentioned.

Do I have to sign up for that website from your first post?
 

dParis

Hall of Fame
Drop the racket how? By straightening your arm at the elbow or by supinating the forearm?

This may, or may not apply, but when I tend to stand too upright, I have trouble getting the racquet below the ball. Proper knee bend helps me get the racquet below the ball as well as load and unload.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Do I have to sign up for that website from your first post?

This one? You don't have to sign up. On the webpage there is a password provided at the top of the list of videos.

"View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand."

http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video
 

KayFactor

Rookie
This one? You don't have to sign up. On the webpage there is a password provided at the top of the list of videos.

"View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand."

http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video

Ok thank you so much! It helped a lot!
 
G

guitarplayer

Guest
This one? You don't have to sign up. On the webpage there is a password provided at the top of the list of videos.

"View the Bruce Elliott video, Part 1, on the forehand. (At the top of the page is a password to view the video.) The video is long and the swing mechanics start mostly about 27 minutes into the video. The comments on the two path forward swing are at 47:10. Great video on the forehand."

http://www.tennis.com.au/coaches/resources/video

Really interesting stuff.
 

KayFactor

Rookie
So when I rotate as it says in that video, do I still actively swing my racket up to and through contact? (with my arm) Or do I let the rotation swing my racket up to contact? To make it simple, do I rotate and then swing? or Swing while rotating?

Sorry for my weird questions, I'm very bad at articulating.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
So when I rotate as it says in that video, do I still actively swing my racket up to and through contact? (with my arm) Or do I let the rotation swing my racket up to contact? To make it simple, do I rotate and then swing? or Swing while rotating?
............................................................

One of my basic questions is always the degree of loose arm to have. I am now studying that issue from the Elliott video, a 30 minute Macci forehand video from Tennis Channel, tennisoxygen videos on Youtube (63 detailed videos with stroke analysis), and others.

For example -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oc7U5oJ6ps

I believe, but am still researching, that the arm-wrist, mostly relaxed, is initially pulled along passively by the body turn and at first lags behind - but you need to study. Also, that my upper arm and racket must be much more up initially - as in all the pro strokes - than I am accustomed to.

Also, I have felt some discomfort in my wrist practicing forehands so I am going very slow regarding using a new ball machine that I just got. Looking at my EF grip also. See especially rely #6 by r2473.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=422414
 
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chico9166

Guest
One of my basic questions is always the degree of loose arm to have. I am now studying that issue from the Elliott video, a 30 minute Macci forehand video from Tennis Channel, tennisoxygen videos on Youtube (63 detailed videos with stroke analysis), and others.

For example -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oc7U5oJ6ps

I believe, but am still researching, that the arm-wrist, mostly relaxed, is initially pulled along passively by the body turn and at first lags behind - but you need to study. Also, that my upper arm and racket must be much more up initially - as in all the pro strokes - than I am accustomed to.

Also, I have felt some discomfort in my wrist practicing forehands so I am going very slow regarding using a new ball machine that I just got. Looking at my EF grip also. See especially rely #6 by r2473.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=422414
One of the most important keys in developing, lag, multisegments, stretch shortening etc, etc (many of the things Elliot is talking about) is NOT allowing the arm to rotate externally in the backswing.
 
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KayFactor

Rookie
One of the most important keys in developing, lag, multisegments, stretch shortening etc, etc (many of the things Elliot is talking about) is NOT allowing the arm to rotate externally in the backswing.

Do you mean the shoulder of the hitting arm?
 

1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
Pros have swing paths which roughly correspond to 15-20degrees of increment from the lowest part of the back swing up to contact... of course it's still low to high, but I call that pretty darn horizontal. So, you don't need a vertical plane to swing with a lot of spin... you just need a slight forward tilt and an appropriate pronation around the contact point.
 

1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
The entire arm. You want to suppress external shoulder rotation, supination of forearm, and extension of wrist, in the backswing.

No... supination, yes, external shoulder rotation no. Pronation before the forward acceleration happens to contract the muscles responsible for the external should rotation -- this enables the player to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the antagonist muscles (those responsible for internal shoulder rotation). Moving the arm past a simple unit turn doesn't hinder your stroke: if I want to be consistent, I must say it will help you swing harder.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
wrist extension?

The entire arm. You want to suppress external shoulder rotation, supination of forearm, and extension of wrist, in the backswing.

I'll have to check but I believe that Macci in the video has the wrist in extension (back of the hand bent upward toward the forearm). ?
 
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chico9166

Guest
I'll have to check but I believe that Macci in the video has the wrist in extension (back of the hand bent upward toward the forearm). ?
Not sure how old this video is (looked at it briefly), but I would bet that he will change his tune, now that he is working (recently) with Brian Gordon.
 

KayFactor

Rookie
No... supination, yes, external shoulder rotation no. Pronation before the forward acceleration happens to contract the muscles responsible for the external should rotation -- this enables the player to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the antagonist muscles (those responsible for internal shoulder rotation). Moving the arm past a simple unit turn doesn't hinder your stroke: if I want to be consistent, I must say it will help you swing harder.

What exactly is internal and external shoulder rotation?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
What exactly is internal and external shoulder rotation?

To properly identify motions they are always associated with a single joint. This can be very confusing, for example,

If one stands and twists to 'rotate his shoulders' around this is not 'shoulder rotation' but trunk rotation.

If a person, during a serve, 'rotates his shoulders' so the hitting shoulder goes from low to high this also is not 'shoulder rotation" but trunk flexion.

Internal shoulder and external shoulder rotation refer to axial rotation of the upper arm bone (humerus) in the shoulder joint. In tennis, unfortunately, this motion has been mislabeled 'pronation'.

To understand these terms search internal shoulder rotation, external shoulder rotation. You can also search this forum for a great many replies with the term. Internal shoulder rotation is the largest contributor to racket head speed on the serve.

Illustrations of Internal Shoulder Rotation

http://www.google.com/search?q=inte...LJOr46QHU_aHRAg&ved=0CHgQsAQ&biw=1467&bih=631

The largest muscles that are attached to the arm can internally rotate the upper arm and also do other motions. These muscles are the lat and pec plus another.

If you expect to be interested in this subject you might consider buying a reference such as the Manual of Structural Kinesiology, C. Thompson. An older edition will do and is much cheaper than the latest edition that is used as a text book.

Unfortunately a lot of the usage on this forum does not follow the definitions.
 
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1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
In tennis, unfortunately, this motion has been mislabeled 'pronation'.

I don't know which people you speak about tennis with, but no one I can think of, who would use these terms, would be dumb enough to confound both. One originates at the elbow and involves the wrist joint and forearm; the other involves the arm, originating in the shoulder... Pronation is about turning your hand (well, elbow pronation, since there are more than one type of pronation), shoulder rotation is about turning your upper arm -- when they speak about pronation on the forehand or serve, they DO mean a forearm muscular action.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I don't know which people you speak about tennis with, but no one I can think of, who would use these terms, would be dumb enough to confound both. One originates at the elbow and involves the wrist joint and forearm; the other involves the arm, originating in the shoulder... Pronation is about turning your hand (well, elbow pronation, since there are more than one type of pronation), shoulder rotation is about turning your upper arm -- when they speak about pronation on the forehand or serve, they DO mean a forearm muscular action.

I don't agree when it comes to most usage on this forum.

See this thread on 'pronation' - it is mostly about internal shoulder rotation. Especially see replies #75 & 78.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/show...nal+shoulder+rotation+Charliefedererer&page=3

(Would someone please tell me how to quote replies from other threads, if possible.)
 

1HBH Rocks

Semi-Pro
Write
whoever you are quoting said:
and end the line by placing a / in between [ and QUOTE in
.

As for the issue, no one is poorly discussing both movement. Someone simply mentioned that internal shoulder rotation with arm up in the air also causes the hand to face the ground. In his opinion, people misused shoulder rotation and forearm movement as internal shoulder rotation can bring your hand into a different position which would look very much alike what pronation would have done, except that it's your arm and not your forearm which moved.

You can verify, agree or not, but he's not misusing the words (post 75)... furthermore, look at the picture he sent: there's a hand with all the movements involving the wrist joint. He can't put that up there and not know what differentiates pronation and internal shoulder rotation.
 

WildVolley

Legend
You can verify, agree or not, but he's not misusing the words (post 75)... furthermore, look at the picture he sent: there's a hand with all the movements involving the wrist joint. He can't put that up there and not know what differentiates pronation and internal shoulder rotation.

I agree with Chas Tennis that the term "pronation" in casual tennis usage with respect to the serve normally refers to both forearm pronation and probably the more important component of internal shoulder rotation.
 
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chico9166

Guest
No... supination, yes, external shoulder rotation no. Pronation before the forward acceleration happens to contract the muscles responsible for the external should rotation -- this enables the player to tap into a stretch-shortening cycle in the antagonist muscles (those responsible for internal shoulder rotation). Moving the arm past a simple unit turn doesn't hinder your stroke: if I want to be consistent, I must say it will help you swing harder.
Ahh, pretty sure we're saying the same thing. If the forearm is pronating, the upper arm will not rotate externally. Look, here's the bottom line, throughout the loop backswing, the forearm should not supinate (rotate externally), neither should the shoulder, nor should the wrist extend. This all occurs when the the pull occurs (the flip) to commence the forward swing.

This places a real load on the arm.
 
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