Or you could say that, after so many years of tennis being his singular focus, Lendl happily, sensibly, selflessly put the game aside to devote his energies to family and the raising of his children.
Mac and Connors need to give Lendl more credit
- Thread starter sandy mayer
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Or you could say that, after so many years of tennis being his singular focus, Lendl happily, sensibly, selflessly put the game aside to devote his energies to family and the raising of his children.
realplayer
Semi-Pro
Lendl had just a greater career when you look at the number of tournaments, head to head , being longer no. 1. So why a poll about this :
The answer is simple Lendl was greater then Mcenroe. Besides Lendl was a baseliner and Mac a serve and volleyplayer.
But you could compare Connors and Lendl, because both where baseliners.
The answer is simple Lendl was greater then Mcenroe. Besides Lendl was a baseliner and Mac a serve and volleyplayer.
But you could compare Connors and Lendl, because both where baseliners.
schadenfreude
New User
The last thing I read about Lendl was that he was purposely keeping his children away from tennis. I assume because Lendl feels like he took too much pressure and abuse as a player, from the press? I get the sense that Lendl feels, post-career, in much the same way as Bill Buckner (former Boston Red Sox player) did before the red sox won th WS.
WORD. I really can't stand Mac in the box. He's got a grating, hoarse voice that makes me reach for the mute button.
WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
Hall of Fame
I think that's the bottom line saying all. Lendl had a tremendous career, comparable to those two, but of course it's arguable who was better. I think it doesn't matter who was better anyway.
Lendl ended up having great rivalries between himself and Connors and McEnroe, but also Edberg and Becker, he straddled a few other guys primes and comings and goings. Says even more for his game and ability.
Tony Roche helped Lendl in that department greatly. But it was Lendl determination that pulled it together. A great change from his early career to his dominance era at the top.
I think rather it was Lendl's personal choice along with his wife, Samantha's agreement, that they settle into a 'quiet' lifestyle with their children. Why be downed for that? I think it was just moving on to another part of his life, unlike some who seem not to be able to move on. Mac, for example.
Mac and Jimmy both despise Lendl personally, and they seriously resent his domination over them from 1985 onward. Connors got old, but had a winning record vs Lendl through 1985. His refusal to acknowledge Lendl as a rival equal to Borg and McEnroe is more understandable since he had an age related decline after 85.
McEnroe, on the other hand was only one year older than Lendl and has no such excuse. Obviously there is no way around Lendl being one of Macs great 3 rivals. McEnroe's refusal to acknowledge this and make excuses is in poor taste. Lendl holds the edge over him career wise.
Mac is my favorite player ever, but he is in denial if he tries to downplay Lendl. Look at the head to head.
McEnroe, on the other hand was only one year older than Lendl and has no such excuse. Obviously there is no way around Lendl being one of Macs great 3 rivals. McEnroe's refusal to acknowledge this and make excuses is in poor taste. Lendl holds the edge over him career wise.
Mac is my favorite player ever, but he is in denial if he tries to downplay Lendl. Look at the head to head.
I agree that Lendl and Connors can be compared, and their accomplishments are similar, though Lendl was more consistent day in day out, and probably faced tougher competition.
There is no comparing Mac with Lendl. Lendl was a better tennis player than Mac no matter how you look at it. It is only the bs notions of Mac unsurpassed tennis genius that keep clouding the issue with reasons why Mac was better. In the first place, it is not only after 85 that Lendl owned Mac. From their first meeting (1980) through the Master's final in December 1982 -- a total of 3 years -- Lendl completely dominated Mac beating him 7 out of 9 times, including the last 7 in a row. This was the period when Mac was on the first wave of his peak.
Mac's dominance lasted 2 years and 7 months, from February 1983 (Philadelphia Indoor) through August 1985 (Stratton Mountain). During this period, Mac won 12 of 16 meetings, but losing a key one at the 1984 RG final. (Where he ran away from the awards without even stopping to congratulate Lendl or saying a word, a habit he keeps to this day: he cannot stand anyone mentioning he had a rivalry with Lendl; he loves to talk about his rivalry with Borgh, though, a much shorter and less significant one.)
Beginning with the 1985 US Open, Lendl's dominance was even more complete than on the first period of their head to head. Lendl won 9 out of 10 meetings from 1985 to 1983, including the last 6, during which Mac did not take a single set or got to a tiebreak.
Given they were 10 moths apart, this data is rather eloquent, and it takes a lot of massaging to bend it out of shape. Unable to come to grips with this reality, Mac fans invented the notion that he was "practically retired" after 1985. This is complete BS. He tried as hard as *he* could to make it to the top. He didn't quite make it back to the very top, but he stayed not very far from it. He stayed in the top ten for most of the next 4 years. He got as high as number 4 during most of 1989. Those would be successful years to the overwhelming majority of players. He has the third best record in history (after Connors and Lendl) in consecutive weeks in the top 25. These facts don't square with the idea that he was "almost retired" after 85. The method here seems to be: if he had made it back to number 1, great. Since he didn't (though he certainly tried for several years) we will conclude that he was "semi-retired" or that he had an "early peak". It is inconceivable that he could have seriously tried and not made it. Not very serious reasoning. You could also say that Marat Safin has been semi-retired since his early peak at the 2000 US Open final, when he played tennis like angels do in heaven, and that everything else does not count because he was so good in that match. Not very serious.
Lendl was not only a much better player than Mac. He was Mac's main rival for the first half of the 80s (the two of them held the top 2 spots longer than any other pair in the 80s, until April 86), and Lendl was the player who bumped Mac out of the top for good.
suwanee4712
Professional
Of Connors, Mac, and Lendl, Mac was my favorite player to watch. But I'm often mystified that Mac will talk so much about his rivalry with Borg and his wishes that Borg had played longer. Because when Lendl finally had worked hard enough to surpass him in 1985, I think it was pretty clear that Mac did not have the desire to put in the work necessary to be #1 again. So in a way, I don't really see much difference in what he did as compared to Borg.
As for Connors, I give him credit for the heart and tenacity that he played with. And I love his flat strokes and angles that he produced to open up the court and keep his opponents on the run. But he's the most caustic of any tennis champion that ever was. I love how he likes to be mentioned in the triangle with Mac and Borg. But the truth is, his own grand slam resurgence in 1982 and 1983 came in Borg's absence. So I think it's ironic when he says that Lendl became #1 by default because Mac went crazy and he got old. Perhaps if Borg hadn't retired so early, Connors grand slam resume would be 3 slams lighter.
I think Mac and Connors would be much better off to just give Lendl his due. They both won slam titles over the guy. They only diminish their own records by putting down Lendl.
As for Connors, I give him credit for the heart and tenacity that he played with. And I love his flat strokes and angles that he produced to open up the court and keep his opponents on the run. But he's the most caustic of any tennis champion that ever was. I love how he likes to be mentioned in the triangle with Mac and Borg. But the truth is, his own grand slam resurgence in 1982 and 1983 came in Borg's absence. So I think it's ironic when he says that Lendl became #1 by default because Mac went crazy and he got old. Perhaps if Borg hadn't retired so early, Connors grand slam resume would be 3 slams lighter.
I think Mac and Connors would be much better off to just give Lendl his due. They both won slam titles over the guy. They only diminish their own records by putting down Lendl.
Very accurate information, although I don't think you can say that there is no comparison between the two. I would not say Lendl was a MUCH better player than Mac.
NadalandFedererfan
Banned
It is too bad they dont give him more credit. All 3 are true all time greats of the game, and should not look to exclude one another from that very special time in tennis which each were a big part of.
this is a ridiculous comment. mcenroe was MUCH more talented than lendl. it's not even comparable. the reason why lendl had a better career than mcenroe (in my opinion) is that he worked so hard off the court, was in the best shape of anyone in the game, and kept his motivation. but there is absolutley no comparison if you are looking at them from a talent standpoint alone.
also, lendl's backhand improved but it never got anywhere near the level of his forehand (just like federer).
error!
I think you have it backwords. Lendl had the topspin backhand first but developed the slice when he got that australian Tony Roach to coach him for Wimbledon.
I think you have it backwords. Lendl had the topspin backhand first but developed the slice when he got that australian Tony Roach to coach him for Wimbledon.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Mac lost interest in tennis? Oh.
medieval_remnant
Rookie
Mac did basically retire after 1985. I think his lose to Becker at Stratton in August of 1986 was devastating. McEnroe played very well, as he did, in the fall after losing to Annacone at the Open. Mac knew that Becker would only get better
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
Both their games were great for indoor play.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Connors and Lendl hate each other, or atleast Connors hates Lendl. Still does even today. Unlike McEnroe and Borg who he is atleast cordial with today (I think he and McEnroe are even friends, kind of, today). Of course he will go out of his way to give him as little credit as possible.
McEnroe and Lendl are also not particularly friendly, even today. Most players, even greats will tend to give as little credit as possible, while hopefully not going too OTT to seem completely unreasonable, on someone they dislike. Think of the amount of credit Navratilova, Evert, King give Court. They do credit her as a great player, but also give her the bare minimum of credit they can. Think of Navratilova and Shriver when it comes to Steffi Graf, again they credit her as a great player, but again with the bare minimum amount they can give without seeming completely crazy. It is the same thing here, and if you understand human nature it is hard to fault it. It is human nature.
McEnroe and Lendl are also not particularly friendly, even today. Most players, even greats will tend to give as little credit as possible, while hopefully not going too OTT to seem completely unreasonable, on someone they dislike. Think of the amount of credit Navratilova, Evert, King give Court. They do credit her as a great player, but also give her the bare minimum of credit they can. Think of Navratilova and Shriver when it comes to Steffi Graf, again they credit her as a great player, but again with the bare minimum amount they can give without seeming completely crazy. It is the same thing here, and if you understand human nature it is hard to fault it. It is human nature.
Galvermegs
Professional
Perhaps but also lets not forget how much it helped young pete to train with lendl. I think not winning wimbledon was an issue.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
No he did not. He was never as successful after his hiatus, but he won 10 tournaments from 1986-1991 and won the Wimbledon doubles in 1992 with Stich.
Agreed. Retired is not the word, he played. He took that sojourn in 86, but he didn't retire.
Hate may be too strong a word, but these guys were not buddies, for sure. Still, Lendl earned some of the enmity early on....he was a head hunter, tanker and occasional choker. His press interviews were awful. So, I've never been super sympathetic on this topic. But later on, there was just a lot of bitterness from both Mac and Connors towards him. Perhaps a shred of truth in it, but you've got to give Ivan credit for stepping up his game the way he did, no question about it.
It was an issue and will always be an issue in assessments of Lendl. W will always outweigh FO (or AO) wins, like it or not. Plus, he had a great record at the USO (even if he gets shade on his finals losses).
Agreed...the slice became a key tool of his later on (especially vs. Connors)
Galvermegs
Professional
I dont really know how much lendl was that bad in interviews..maybe some journalists liked his dry wit and smarts.. but he wasnt great on camera one to one interviews what i have seen
Also he definitely did not speak great english his first few years on tour...the women these days often get a pass for this same flaw if non native.. boy is rybakina bad for someone who was university bound at one point before she actually was a prospect.
Mac did purposely go out of his way to try to deny that he even had a rivalry with Lendl or just downplay it, for a pretty long time.
It was silly, but with his ego and the fact that he cared about his legacy a lot more than most other retired legends, it wasn't hard to see why.
He both liked and respected Borg, and ultimately got the better of their h2h. It's easy for him to reminisce fondly about the 1980 Wimbledon final, because he then went on to beat Borg in 3 major finals within the next 14 months, including 'avenging' that defeat in their re-match at the same venue the following year, and went on to win Wimbledon 3 times.
He didn't like Connors, but greatly respected him, and again he ultimately got the better of their h2h, notably winning 3 of their 4 matches at the USO. So again it's easy for him to reminisce fondly about their rivalry. He praised Connors' performance in their brilliant 1984 USO SF for example, but it's easy to do that after winning the match. I doubt he would have been so generous had he lost it.
But he neither liked nor respected Lendl, and Lendl ultimately got the better of their h2h, so it was far more difficult for him to reminisce fondly about their rivalry. The 1984 RG final was an absolute classic, but given that Mac never struck gold there or came anywhere near as close to winning that title again (his straight sets SF defeat in 1985 doesn't come close to him being 5 points away from winning the final in 1984), never beat Lendl there (plus he also lost 3 out of their 5 matches at the USO) etc., it was a very sore point for him. It was said that he banned people from mentioning that match in his company for a while.
Lendl ribbing Mac about the 1984 RG final when they were jointly interviewed ahead of a senior exho I think in 2011 (so nearly 27 years after the event) was funny - Mac had a face like thunder. Given that Mac allegedly trashed the UCLA locker room after an exho against Agassi the previous year, at the age of 51 no less, clearly he struggled more than most to treat those matches in a light-hearted way.
It was silly, but with his ego and the fact that he cared about his legacy a lot more than most other retired legends, it wasn't hard to see why.
He both liked and respected Borg, and ultimately got the better of their h2h. It's easy for him to reminisce fondly about the 1980 Wimbledon final, because he then went on to beat Borg in 3 major finals within the next 14 months, including 'avenging' that defeat in their re-match at the same venue the following year, and went on to win Wimbledon 3 times.
He didn't like Connors, but greatly respected him, and again he ultimately got the better of their h2h, notably winning 3 of their 4 matches at the USO. So again it's easy for him to reminisce fondly about their rivalry. He praised Connors' performance in their brilliant 1984 USO SF for example, but it's easy to do that after winning the match. I doubt he would have been so generous had he lost it.
But he neither liked nor respected Lendl, and Lendl ultimately got the better of their h2h, so it was far more difficult for him to reminisce fondly about their rivalry. The 1984 RG final was an absolute classic, but given that Mac never struck gold there or came anywhere near as close to winning that title again (his straight sets SF defeat in 1985 doesn't come close to him being 5 points away from winning the final in 1984), never beat Lendl there (plus he also lost 3 out of their 5 matches at the USO) etc., it was a very sore point for him. It was said that he banned people from mentioning that match in his company for a while.
Lendl ribbing Mac about the 1984 RG final when they were jointly interviewed ahead of a senior exho I think in 2011 (so nearly 27 years after the event) was funny - Mac had a face like thunder. Given that Mac allegedly trashed the UCLA locker room after an exho against Agassi the previous year, at the age of 51 no less, clearly he struggled more than most to treat those matches in a light-hearted way.
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Weekendhacker
Rookie
Mac had a disdain for Connors. In reality, McEnroe, Connors, and Lendl all disliked each other.
his early interviews were quite bad...could be the language. He did get wittier down the road, I will agree. There was also weirdness around him w/the killer dogs and child bride. Creepy. Today, he'd be lambasted. Maybe not even let into the country.
John & Jimmy still don't get along well, by most accounts. Go listen to the Jimmy and Borg podcast. John is annoyed (and jealous?) that Bjorn is going on Jimmy's podcast. Too funny. But, I think John always respected Jimmy WAY more than he did Lendl. At times, I don't even think he took Lendl seriously. He was not that way with Connors. It's all a bit silly. I will say that one of the most touching (and emotional) moments when John, Jimmy and Bjorn came together at Vitas funeral Very special in a very sad way.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I found his attitude re: Lendl a bit strange, since for quite awhile Lendl was just thumping him. Certainly, it was Lendl who kept him from defending his '81 USO title. Also stopping him cold in '85 and worse in '87. Maybe it was the Wimbledon factor? I mean he lost to both Borg and Connors there in finals. Lendl never came close to challenging Mac there. And no question Jimmy was the better grass player over Ivan (others disagree, but the wins speak for themselves). John just had tremendous disdain for Lendl, which had little to do w/the '84 FO final, IMHO. To his credit, Lendl took all of the shade in stride (from both of them) and had the last laugh down the road.
Galvermegs
Professional
I dont know if he killed anyone ha...more needing to scare people off as he was a public figure. Some prefer human bodyguards.. so be it.
The young girlfriend is a bit of an issue but if tony roche seemed ok with it .. hmm. At least back in lendls country i guess consent rules were a little different. Also its worth remembering germanys consent laws. I can only assume lendls in laws did trust him and probably saw security in him as a top athlete. But who knows?
We do know they stayed together and had daughters that went into golf. Compared to borg and mcenroe .. lendl had a better personal life dating back to his career.
It took ages for lendl to become american for various reasons. He did well like martina to achieve a life beyond the occupied czechoslovak lands.
Lendl was lucky that Becker ****ed around with his (Becker’s) own game plan for too long. Tiriac and other coaches wanted Becker to maximize his serve and follow it up to the net as much as possible, but Becker spent way too much time in his best years trying to beat baseliners from the baseline because he thought bot-and-volley was boring and it did him no good at all (at the minimum it costed him the 1986 USO semifinal match).
Boris only truly maximized his serve potential from late 1994 onwards. He clear served much bigger in late 1994-1996 matches compared to 1985-mid 1994 (evidenced by the sharp increase in the number of double-digit ace matches in his late resurgence phase).
Galvermegs
Professional
Yep.. it helped him tie edberg at 6 majors. However it is a shame he had personal and financial issues that helped close the window on anymore chances to threaten at the top post 1996
Do you know where to find Mac's annoyed reaction to the Jimmy-Bjorn podcast. On YouTube I found just a short teaser of the podcast that shows Jimmy saying "The original rivalry was between the two us" and Borg nodding in agreement, which I can only imagine how badly must have rubbed Mac. It seems this storyline makes for a perfect entertainment night
There is a couple of interesting YouTube videos filmed at the time of USO 2019 in which Lendl, Mac, Becker and Wilander discuss past and present tennis. Lendl comes out as very witty, continuously poking Mac, who for the most part plays along (with maybe a couple of slips when his laughter seems a bit forced). In particular they recall a story in which Mac hitched a ride with Lendl to move between tournaments in Europe and Lendl, who was bringing his dad along as well, recounting that he drove as fast as he could to minimize the time in which they had to endure Mac incessant talking. Fun stuff that shows a very different tennis world, in which one of the greatest champions had to drive his own car to go to tournaments and another one of them had to look for rides. In those videos, anyway, Ivan and Mac do show respect for each other, Lendl much more openly and no doubt sincerely, Mac more grudgingly.
I was wondering if there exists some similar document of a post-retirement extended interaction between Jimmy and Ivan (or maybe even Jimmy and Mac), as I am very curious to see what kind of dynamics there is between the two of them. For some reason, I can't picture Ivan playfully nagging Jimmy the same way he did with Mac, I don't think it would have worked that well. There seems to be almost no online material of Jimmy interacting after retirement with his old opponents, beyond a few senior tour matches.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It took ages because Lendl took the decision, unlike Navratilova, not to openly defect. He chose to be remote from Czechoslovakia for years instead with a US green card, while still representing Czechoslovakia officially. It wasn't until (I think) 1987 when Lendl first publicly expressed a desire to be a US citizen, and not until July 1992 when he finally got US citizenship and started representing the USA in tennis.
It's a fairly recent podcast, posted somewhere in the forum.....you can listen to the whole thing....it's VERY entertainingDo you know where to find Mac's annoyed reaction to the Jimmy-Bjorn podcast. On YouTube I found just a short teaser of the podcast that shows Jimmy saying "The original rivalry was between the two us" and Borg nodding in agreement, which I can only imagine how badly must have rubbed Mac. It seems this storyline makes for a perfect entertainment night
There is a couple of interesting YouTube videos filmed at the time of USO 2019 in which Lendl, Mac, Becker and Wilander discuss past and present tennis. Lendl comes out as very witty, continuously poking Mac, who for the most part plays along (with maybe a couple of slips when his laughter seems a bit forced). In particular they recall a story in which Mac hitched a ride with Lendl to move between tournaments in Europe and Lendl, who was bringing his dad along as well, recounting that he drove as fast as he could to minimize the time in which they had to endure Mac incessant talking. Fun stuff that shows a very different tennis world, in which one of the greatest champions had to drive his own car to go to tournaments and another one of them had to look for rides. In those videos, anyway, Ivan and Mac do show respect for each other, Lendl much more openly and no doubt sincerely, Mac more grudgingly.
I was wondering if there exists some similar document of a post-retirement extended interaction between Jimmy and Ivan (or maybe even Jimmy and Mac), as I am very curious to see what kind of dynamics there is between the two of them. For some reason, I can't picture Ivan playfully nagging Jimmy the same way he did with Mac, I don't think it would have worked that well. There seems to be almost no online material of Jimmy interacting after retirement with his old opponents, beyond a few senior tour matches.
Mac is not part of this, but Bjorn relates how annoyed John was that he was appearing on Jimmy's podcast. Priceless
HERE it is:
Jimmy and Brett Connors interview of Bjorn Borg
It is a fascinating interview, though I didn't like the swearing. Here are a few points that came out: Borg and Connors are good friends though McEnroe and Connors still aren't. Connors was very disappointed when Borg retired to the point of thinking about retirement himself. Brett believes...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Galvermegs
Professional
Yes. I tried to make the point it was a carefully balanced defection for many years.. but lendls old colleague pavel slozil seemed to be quite adamant it was nothing more than abiding by the communist rules.. or something like that. Was a surprise to hear from him even though it was a public forum for many retired pros. It didnt seem like much of a discussion and i actually decided to retract my statement at the time. Guess it is hard to really understand the mentality unless you feel the pressure of the regime.
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Hall of Fame
It was quite a risk to defect, because the regime would go after your relatives still back home. That could be one of the reasons Lendl waited. It's the reason why a lot of people from behind the iron curtain didn't defect.
Galvermegs
Professional
Well i wouldnt be here if certain people didnt defect.
^ The quoting was out of sync there, but while the Borg-Mac h2h was 7-7, on the basis that not all matches are equally important I'd say that Mac definitely came out on top given that he won 3 out of their 4 'big two' major finals and biggest matches, and lost 8-6 in the 5th set in the exception that he lost (though after a titanic effort in the legendary 4th set tiebreak to extend it that far). Plus while the Masters had definitely overtaken the WCT Finals in importance by 1979, it could be argued that Mac's 4 set win in the final in Dallas that year (Borg had chances to take it to a 5th set but Mac overall was clearly the better player and at times even looked to have Borg on a string) was a slightly bigger deal than either of Borg's wins in their 2 matches at the Masters which weren't in finals (a semi-final and then a RR clash albeit a crucial one in terms of SF qualification).
And Mac overall won 5 out of their 9 sanctioned tournament finals, again including 3 out of 4 at majors and the 2 most important ones at the time no less. It wasn't a huge advantage for Mac there or anything, but still an advantage none the less, from the matches that they played against each other. Of course the fact that none of their matches were on har-tru in the US let alone on clay in Europe, stands out.
So against that backdrop, it's very easy for Mac to be proud of his involvement in the 1980 Wimbledon final, and have been only too happy to talk about it ever since, given that he beat Borg every other time they squared off in the final of a major, including gaining quick revenge 2 months later, and established himself as a Wimbledon legend in his own right. That was alongside his friendship and deep respect for Borg.
And Mac overall won 5 out of their 9 sanctioned tournament finals, again including 3 out of 4 at majors and the 2 most important ones at the time no less. It wasn't a huge advantage for Mac there or anything, but still an advantage none the less, from the matches that they played against each other. Of course the fact that none of their matches were on har-tru in the US let alone on clay in Europe, stands out.
So against that backdrop, it's very easy for Mac to be proud of his involvement in the 1980 Wimbledon final, and have been only too happy to talk about it ever since, given that he beat Borg every other time they squared off in the final of a major, including gaining quick revenge 2 months later, and established himself as a Wimbledon legend in his own right. That was alongside his friendship and deep respect for Borg.
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grandefrankie
Semi-Pro
I think this is all exactly right.
He both liked and respected Borg, despite the intense rivalry. Granted the rivalry was relatively short lived due to Borg's early retirement, who knows if it stays that way had it lasted longer.
He didn't like Connors, but did definitely respect him.
While Lendl he neither liked or respected for the longest time.
It most definitely stands out.
Borg would’ve had the edge in their rivalry had there been some matches on clay. McEnroe would not have come close to beating Borg on clay in Europe.
It’s strange how Borg showed up to finals on both of McEnroe’s favourite surfaces, yet McEnroe was never able to face Borg on his best surface. It’s no slight against McEnroe but we all know what the likely outcomes would have been had they played on clay.
