Man, that one was a W for the ages!

MoralTruth

New User
Djokovic was a bit tired after those matches but still credit to Murray for beating him. Djokovic was also injured at that USO that year so even though he may have been slumping at least he wasn't calling for the trainer in every match like he was there. I'll give Wawrinka that for being tougher in Slam matches during that time but it was mainly a one off every year where Murray was there in every big tournament.
I agree. Djokovic was injury effected in USO but not in AO and RG in his losses. Murray was def better overall in 15-16 than Wawrinka overall but not in slams matches imo.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Stopping Djokovic from winning 2 Slams, 1 WTF title, 1 Olympic title and 5 Masters titles is greater than stopping Djokovic from winning 3 Slams. I don't see how you can think otherwise.
Talking about 2014-2016. Both Fed and Murray were of little threat in this period.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Talking about 2014-2016. Both Fed and Murray were of little threat in this period.
Everybody was little threat against him at his absolute peak. Wawrinka beat Djokovic once when he was on his tear (October 2014-May 2016) and that was RG 2015. Federer beat him three times and Murray beat him twice. Tying in AO 2014, when Djokovic was struggling to win another Slam and USO 2016 to Djokovic's most dominant stretch is a mistake imo. Wawrinka beat Djokovic in 2014 AO in an extremely tight match that could have went either way. Djokovic also came close to letting that Wimbledon match that year get away from him against Federer which was also close, and he lost to Nishikori in 4 listless sets at the USO. He was not the monster he would become later that fall around Paris. He also was not the same player after RG 2016 for over 2 years so implying that RG win for Wawrinka was on the same level as that USO win is also a mistake. Djokovic won 5/6 Slams from January 2015 to May 2016, and made every tier final except one and Wawrinka stopped him once so credit to him for that win. However, tying to make him out to be the world beater who stopped Djokovic's dominance is not correct.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I dont follow this. Nadal and Djokovic are forever against each other so anytime they are no.1 is huge.
Yes, but Federer hasn't been able to be YE#1 at an older age because he had 2 younger ATG's to contend with.

Nadal has been incredibly fortunate in this respect because in 2017 his main opponent was a 36 year old and this year Djokovic has not been at his ultimate best. 2015 Djokovic would have won the WTF and shut Rafa's YE#1 chances down. Similarly, a younger Federer capable of playing a full season would have also shut his chances down in 2017.

Federer never had this kind of fortune in his old age.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
What about other events? I cant remember how he did at the other big events.
Maybe Rafa at 33 was in better form overall than Fed at 33. Although, not by much. Let's compare their 2019(Rafa) and 2014(Fed) respectively. Although at AO, I say they were in equal form until an ATG exposed them.

At RG, Rafa was in better form.

At Wimb, Fed was in better form.

At the USO, Rafa was in better form arguably, but he didn't have a GOATING opponent in Cilic to deal with. Against a Berrettini, 2014 Fed would not have lost. And I don't see Medvedev beating 2014 Fed either.

The rest of the big events:

IW: Fed > Rafa
Miami: Nadal didn't play, so hard to gauge.
MC: Fed > Rafa
Madrid: Fed didn't play, so hard to gauge
Rome: Rafa > Fed
Canada: tough to say, as Rafa didn't have a GOATING Tsonga in the final
Cincy: Rafa didn't play so hard to gauge
Shanghai: Rafa didn't play so hard to gauge
Paris: probably Rafa
WTF: Fed > Rafa
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think you could make a strong argument that Federer and Djokovic are incredibly lucky Nadal has missed so many events because of injuries.

The bad luck stories can be applied to more than just Roger.
On average, Federer and Djokovic are better players off clay than Rafa, so they would have always been ranked ahead of him if all 3 had been at their best at the same time.

My post was meant to illustrate that you are wrong in claiming Rafa being the oldest YE#1 puts to bed the arguments about Fed's old age. It doesn't. Rafa just has not had any younger ATG in his old age, which is why he is the oldest YE#1.
 
Maybe Rafa at 33 was in better form overall than Fed at 33. Although, not by much. Let's compare their 2019(Rafa) and 2014(Fed) respectively. Although at AO, I say they were in equal form until an ATG exposed them.

At RG, Rafa was in better form.

At Wimb, Fed was in better form.

At the USO, Rafa was in better form arguably, but he didn't have a GOATING opponent in Cilic to deal with. Against a Berrettini, 2014 Fed would not have lost. And I don't see Medvedev beating 2014 Fed either.

The rest of the big events:

IW: Fed > Rafa
Miami: Nadal didn't play, so hard to gauge.
MC: Fed > Rafa
Madrid: Fed didn't play, so hard to gauge
Rome: Rafa > Fed
Canada: tough to say, as Rafa didn't have a GOATING Tsonga in the final
Cincy: Rafa didn't play so hard to gauge
Shanghai: Rafa didn't play so hard to gauge
Paris: probably Rafa
WTF: Fed > Rafa
Federer somehow managed to lose a set to Granollers, and then was matchpoints down against Monfils. He didn't play well enough in USO 2014, it's that simple. He had only Cilic and Nishikori left in the draw, I mean what else did Federer need?! He just wasn't really good. Federer in good form would have never lost to Cilic. And it would be a shame for 2019 Medvedev to lose to 2014 Federer.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Again i dont follow. During their peak years at same time Nadal has won more US Opens than either. Nadal is not as good in australia as either or at wimbledon. He is better in America and the Us Open is the premier HC event still.

If what you say is true then nadals USO record is even more amazing and propels him to GOAT as to have the most USOs this era when he is apparently not as good on HC is just mind boggling. It would be like someone having more clay titles than rafa.
No, Rafa did not win more USO's than Fed during their peak years.

And he did not win the USO when all 3 were at their peaks. Neither has won the USO when all 3 were at their peaks.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Federer somehow managed to lose a set to Granollers, and then was matchpoints down against Monfils. He didn't play well enough in USO 2014, it's that simple. He had only Cilic and Nishikori left in the draw, I mean what else did Federer need?! He just wasn't really good. Federer in good form would have never lost to Cilic. And it would be a shame for 2019 Medvedev to lose to 2014 Federer.
It doesn't change the fact that against a Berrettini, 2014 Fed would not have lost in the semis. Cilic, arguably is a tougher player than Medvedev when on as he actually has firepower, unlike Med.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Excuse me? Nadal has won USO 2010 2013 2017 2019. Federer has won 0 in that time. Are u saying Federer has not been at his peak since 2010?
Uh, yes? Just like Nadal has not been at his peak since 2014, as he has been Fedovic's whipping boy ever since.

Why don't I try to question why Nadal did not win any USO's in 2005-2009?
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Why? Djokovic is 19-6 against Wawrinka. Both Federer and Murray have closer head to heads than that. Also, what does that have to do with Del Potro and Nadal?
Tbh I don’t particularly rate any of his Paris masters opponents. Wawrinka and 2018 Fed gave him a good match though.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
He was a teenager for most of those years. As for whipping boy how do you work that out? Nadal has won countless Majors as M1000s in that time and this season destroyed Federer and Djokovic.

Only hammering i recall Nadal taking was AO this year. Cant think of anything else recent.
For 2005 he was a teenager. What’s your excuse for 2006-2009?
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He was a teenager for most of those years. As for whipping boy how do you work that out? Nadal has won countless Majors as M1000s in that time and this season destroyed Federer and Djokovic.

Only hammering i recall Nadal taking was AO this year. Cant think of anything else recent.
In the last 5-6 years he is winningless against Fedovic off clay.

And Fed was an old man for most of the USO's since 2010, so I don't know what your point really is.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
2009 injured but anyway federer didnt win so not sure why 2009 even raised.

2008 Nadal had just won FO W Canada and OG so was simply out of gas. Not so much physically but mentally.

2007 Nadal was still learning the game off clay and not even close to the player he was to become.

Why Federer has failed post 2008 is hard to fathom.
Bolded: Getting old and bad luck.

Spare me the Nadal just learing the game off clay in 2007. It was one of his best Wimb editions.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
2009 injured but anyway federer didnt win so not sure why 2009 even raised.

2008 Nadal had just won FO W Canada and OG so was simply out of gas. Not so much physically but mentally.

2007 Nadal was still learning the game off clay and not even close to the player he was to become.

Why Federer has failed post 2008 is hard to fathom.
Yeah so Nadal failed to reach peak Fed there 6 years straight.
Lots of choking and bad luck in 2010-2011. Injuries too (2013, 2016-2019). 2012 seems like a big missed opportunity.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
2009 injured but anyway federer didnt win so not sure why 2009 even raised.

2008 Nadal had just won FO W Canada and OG so was simply out of gas. Not so much physically but mentally.

2007 Nadal was still learning the game off clay and not even close to the player he was to become.

Why Federer has failed post 2008 is hard to fathom.
What's with your USO obsession anyway? Fed has 5 titles there so his legacy is set.

Why hasn't Nadal won any more AO's after 2009 is the real question. Or any more Wimb's after 2010.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
2009 injured but anyway federer didnt win so not sure why 2009 even raised.

2008 Nadal had just won FO W Canada and OG so was simply out of gas. Not so much physically but mentally.

2007 Nadal was still learning the game off clay and not even close to the player he was to become.

Why Federer has failed post 2008 is hard to fathom.
2010: slumping season after the AO and bad luck.

2011: bad luck again, but at least he pushed the eventual USO winner harder than Nadal did. Novak whipped Nadal's ass that year in the final.

2012: probably tired after his great season. If Nadal at 22 can be tired, so can Fed at 31.

2013: injuries

2014: bad form and GOATING Cilic.

2015: 34 years old and peak Djokovic. Give him Nadal's 2017 or 2019 draw and he wins the title.

2016-2019: injuries.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Federer was 30 in 2010!!! You call that old?

Nadal cannot be blamed if his rivals fail to get far enough to meet him. Bottom line is nadal 3-1 Federer at AO and Nadal 2-1 Djokovic at US Open so i think to argue Nadal cant beat either off clay is disingenuous. Nadal was beating Federer at AO and UsO this year had they met and would have beat Djokovic in New York. Of that i am in no doubt at all.
Hypothetical matches don't count. Fed would have whipped Nadal in other years, but I'm not mentioning those.

All those records are irrelevant since we're talking about 2014-present here. Since 2014, he has not been able to beat Fedovic off clay.

Fed has been 29+ since 2010. Compared to Djokodal in that same time frame, that's not young. And his draws weren't as friendly as Nadal's either.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
For Nadal fans the US Open is his biggest antidote to the trolls. It was the event he was said to be not good enough to win.

As for Australia he has had bad luck 2011 and 2014 notably. Wimbledon he is not as good as Federer or Djokovic. No secret there. His early losses at Wimbledon were disappointing but i do not think there is a player with the perfect career.
And for non-Nadal fans, the USO is also a mean to troll since his draws there have always been ridiculed.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Federer has won in Australia though a few times so why has he struggled in New York which was his better event.

Where was the bad luck in 2010-2011?
Slowed down surface, late year fatigue in his 30s, injuries etc. He has always been fresh Australia.

Double MP 2 years in a row.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
There is a court speed index for the M1000s but i have never seen one for the Majors.

I would lobe to see a court speed index for australia and new york for last 10 years. Dont suppose you or anyone knows how we could find that? Would be interesting.
USO has been slowed down in 2010s and Fed has had bad luck there with injuries and form.
fed’s 2011/2015 level is easily enough to win 2017-2019 editions of USO with those weak ass draws lol. Unfortunate he ran into peak Djokovic.
 
C

Chadalina

Guest
Hard courts less forgiving on the joints so your post is exactly why hard court tennis must be reduced for the Next Generation.
Is that why the best clay courter of all time has bad knee's and Fed/Djoks are fine?

USO has been slowed down in 2010s and Fed has had bad luck there with injuries and form.
fed’s 2011/2015 level is easily enough to win 2017-2019 editions of USO with those weak ass draws lol. Unfortunate he ran into peak Djokovic.
Fed also has 4 kids now and is an actual father to them.
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
I know that some people make their own reality, but your approach can't be good if you do it consistently.

:cool:
Reality... yes - will start hitting you very hard as your God's records start falling. Then you can come to me, apologise and admit that I was right all along and beg for my forgiveness ;)
 
The thread title should be a W for his age :laughing: Its great he can beat a younger ATG at whatever match and also dominated most of wimbledon only to give it away on a platter. I guess Roger needed this win to prove he can still beat Novak and will take some confidence into the next year. Don't know whether Novak was fully fit for this match. But I expect him to be back in full strength for his favorite slam. Good luck to the big 3 and hope Roger wins the AO 8-B Am I too greedy. Maybe yes. Go Roger you amazing grandpa you :giggle:
 

Mckeon

New User
On average, Federer and Djokovic are better players off clay than Rafa, so they would have always been ranked ahead of him if all 3 had been at their best at the same time.

My post was meant to illustrate that you are wrong in claiming Rafa being the oldest YE#1 puts to bed the arguments about Fed's old age. It doesn't. Rafa just has not had any younger ATG in his old age, which is why he is the oldest YE#1.
Nadal is better on outdoor hard court than Federer. 4 Us Opens Is clear evidence in an era when Federer failed to win one.

Djokovic is better on plexicushion. Nadal better on DecoTurf.
 

Mckeon

New User
Your post is only a confirmation of what I just said. I literally ..... some people really like to construct their imaginary world. Seek help.

:cool:
The reality is Nadal is GOAT given that is the perception in locker room. He has the most Majors of The big three when all peak at same time. Next year to 18 months Nadal will have 21 Majors most likely . 2019 and 2017 pivotal years for his legacy.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadal is better on outdoor hard court than Federer. 4 Us Opens Is clear evidence in an era when Federer failed to win one.

Djokovic is better on plexicushion. Nadal better on DecoTurf.
Ok, so I guess 11 HC slams can ve forgotten just like that.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is better on outdoor hard court than Federer. 4 Us Opens Is clear evidence in an era when Federer failed to win one.

Djokovic is better on plexicushion. Nadal better on DecoTurf.
I would say Nadal has been more clutch when opportunities have presented themselves at the USO which happens to be on decoturf. Him being better on decoturf than Djokovic? Can't go that far. Djokovic has won every tournament 500 and above on decoturf: Dubai, Canada, Cincy, USO, Tokyo, Beijing and Shanghai. He relishes anything hardcourt. He's just better on hardcourt overall. Also saying he's better on outdoor hard than Federer is a stretch.
 

Mckeon

New User
I edited. Sorry for being mean. Read the edited reply.
I’m new so I do not follow? What do you mean by saying you have been mean and what has been edited? I just get a notification saying you replied and if I click it it brought me to your post .
 

Mckeon

New User
I would say Nadal has been more clutch when opportunities have presented themselves at the USO which happens to be on decoturf. Him being better on decoturf than Djokovic? Can't go that far. Djokovic has won every tournament 500 and above on decoturf: Dubai, Canada, Cincy, USO, Tokyo, Beijing and Shanghai. He relishes anything hardcourt. He's just better on hardcourt overall. Also saying he's better on outdoor hard than Federer is a stretch.
Nadal is definitely superior to federer on outdoor hard court. Last 11 years Nadal has won a lot more HC tournaments but the 4-0 USO is hard to ignore.

As for Djokovic yes agreed about the clutch point but surely being clutch is part of a skill set?
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is definitely superior to federer on outdoor hard court. Last 11 years Nadal has won a lot more HC tournaments but the 4-0 USO is hard to ignore.

As for Djokovic yes agreed about the clutch point but surely being clutch is part of a skill set?
How can you possibly say Nadal is better on outdoor hard than Federer when Federer has 6 AOs to Nadal's 1? Or the fact that Federer has all the hardcourt Masters and Nadal is missing Shanghai and Miami? Come on now.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
The reality is Nadal is GOAT given that is the perception in locker room. He has the most Majors of The big three when all peak at same time. Next year to 18 months Nadal will have 21 Majors most likely . 2019 and 2017 pivotal years for his legacy.
We both know that you have been here before. You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again, with updated numbers.

So, what is the point of doing it? It is a dead end.

:cool:
 

Mckeon

New User
We both know that you have been here before. You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again, with updated numbers.

So, what is the point of doing it? It is a dead end.

:cool:
I don’t understand your post and how it relates to anything I said!? Nadal is on 19 Majors and almost Certain to get close to Margaret Court. I’m not sure anyone disagrees so they?
 

Mckeon

New User
How can you possibly say Nadal is better on outdoor hard than Federer when Federer has 6 AOs to Nadal's 1? Or the fact that Federer has all the hardcourt Masters and Nadal is missing Shanghai and Miami? Come on now.
Because firstly half of those were before Nadal was out of his teens. He is 1-3 v Nadal in Australia. Nadal owns Federer 8-5 on outdoor hard court. Also the USO is still the premier HC Major and Nadal has won 4 in the peak of DJokovic and Federer. Federer has won 0. It is. Not even close. Nadal is comfortably the better outdoor HC player.

My view on Federer is he definitely got exposed on Hard courts by Nadal and Djokovic post 2008 and on grass became exposed by Djokovic. It is why for many people Federer is 3rd if his generation overall. I fail to see why that is regarded as anything but a compliment as Federer to have won majors in the Nadal and Djokovic era has don’t very well.
 

Lew II

Legend
Yes, but Federer hasn't been able to be YE#1 at an older age because he had 2 younger ATG's to contend with.

Nadal has been incredibly fortunate in this respect because in 2017 his main opponent was a 36 year old and this year Djokovic has not been at his ultimate best. 2015 Djokovic would have won the WTF and shut Rafa's YE#1 chances down. Similarly, a younger Federer capable of playing a full season would have also shut his chances down in 2017.

Federer never had this kind of fortune in his old age.
Yeah Federer without Djokovic after 2016 AO could've had 13,020 points o_O

2015 Dubai win
2015 Indian Wells win
2015 MonteCarlo r16
2015 Instanbul win
2015 Madrid r32
2015 Rome win
2015 RG qf
2015 Halle win
2015 Wimbledon win
2015 Cincinnati win
2015 Us Open win
2015 Shanghai r32
2015 Basel win
2015 Paris r16
2015 YEC win
2016 Brisbane final
2016 AO win
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Because firstly half of those were before Nadal was out of his teens. He is 1-3 v Nadal in Australia. Nadal owns Federer 8-5 on outdoor hard court. Also the USO is still the premier HC Major and Nadal has won 4 in the peak of DJokovic and Federer. Federer has won 0. It is. Not even close. Nadal is comfortably the better outdoor HC player.

My view on Federer is he definitely got exposed on Hard courts by Nadal and Djokovic post 2008 and on grass became exposed by Djokovic. It is why for many people Federer is 3rd if his generation overall. I fail to see why that is regarded as anything but a compliment as Federer to have won majors in the Nadal and Djokovic era has don’t very well.
No man. He may be 3-1 against Federer at AO, which is a strike against Federer, but he has not reached his achievements on hardcourt, not even close. He's actually 8-6 against Federer on outdoor hardcourt. He did win 4 USOs but he did not win them at the peak of Federer. Federer's peak there was between 2004-2009 when he won 5 of them and Nadal didn't reach him to play him. You cannot say Nadal is comfortably the better outdoor hardcourt player when Federer has 11 Slams to his 5, and 20 Masters to his 9. Federer has double the success. Leading the head to head cannot negate that.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
I don’t understand your post and how it relates to anything I said!? Nadal is on 19 Majors and almost Certain to get close to Margaret Court. I’m not sure anyone disagrees so they?
Don't worry, it is other things that you don't understand you should be weary about.

 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is definitely superior to federer on outdoor hard court. Last 11 years Nadal has won a lot more HC tournaments but the 4-0 USO is hard to ignore.

As for Djokovic yes agreed about the clutch point but surely being clutch is part of a skill set?
Nadal: 0 USO during Fed’s peak.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Nice emoji however there are 12 days of Christmas none of which occur in November!
I thought about writing a PS to not address my emodji as that seems to be the go to subject for people that have nothing to say, but I thought that this time it will be different. Alas.

 

Mckeon

New User
No man. He may be 3-1 against Federer at AO, which is a strike against Federer, but he has not reached his achievements on hardcourt, not even close. He's actually 8-6 against Federer on outdoor hardcourt. He did win 4 USOs but he did not win them at the peak of Federer. Federer's peak there was between 2004-2009 when he won 5 of them and Nadal didn't reach him to play him. You cannot say Nadal is comfortably the better outdoor hardcourt player when Federer has 11 Slams to his 5, and 20 Masters to his 9. Federer has double the success. Leading the head to head cannot negate that.
WHy are you comparing Baby Nadal to Federer?

Federer was 26 in 2008 and since then has failed to win the biggest HC Major. I like Federer a lot but on hard court he is way below Nadal and Djokovic. His record v Delpo and Thiem on hard isn’t great in biggest events either. To be fair to Federer husband problems started on high bouncing courts as more players started using more top spin and exposed his backhand which is vulnerable to the ball getting up. His BH is still a work of art when the ball keeps low but the game changed and made the 1 handed BH les effective. I understand coaches nowadays teach two handed backhands.
 

Mckeon

New User
I thought about writing a PS to not address my emodji as that seems to be the go to subject for people that have nothing to say, but I thought that this time it will be different. Alas.

I love Christmas especially when basking in Nadal year like this which is beyond any Nadal fans wildest dreams...but patience! Let’s get festive at thanksgiving
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
I love Christmas especially when basking in Nadal year like this which is beyond any Nadal fans wildest dreams...but patience! Let’s get festive at thanksgiving
That is the next cookie cutter response once confronted with your inner desert. Man, the trolls are not what they used to be.

 
Top