Margaret Court Continues to Stay Ahead of the Pack at 24

NonP

Hall of Fame
I think it is hilarious that Margaret continues to be the all time winningest woman at the majors. Serena has reached three major finals in the last 12 months and won 0 sets in those matches.
More like you're relieved at your politically incorrect white maiden maintaining her lead for now. I suggest you get out more instead of obsessing over such insignificant things. Who knows, you may even learn something from those SJWs that annoy you so much.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
More like you're relieved at your politically incorrect white maiden maintaining her lead for now. I suggest you get out more instead of obsessing over such insignificant things. Who knows, you may even learn something from those SJWs that annoy you so much.
It would be interesting if Billie Jean King had 24 Slams and had won the exact same Slams Court did.

Question: Would everyone say Billie Jean is GOAT until her Slam record is surpassed? Or would they say the majority of her slams are worthless (as we now say about Court).

Or if Court were homosexual or maybe black. What if she simply wasn’t outspoken against homosexuality? What if her personality was like Jackie Kennedy or Princess Diana? Would her slam record be more legitimate and respected?

I know, we can’t ask such questions. It’s racist and homophobic (probably even misogynistic) to do so.

Still, I can’t help but wonder.
 
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Greatgatsby

Semi-Pro
More like you're relieved at your politically incorrect white maiden maintaining her lead for now. I suggest you get out more instead of obsessing over such insignificant things. Who knows, you may even learn something from those SJWs that annoy you so much.
Can't one just be a homophobe and not a racist too? Or do they go together like red hair and freckles?
 

JoshuaPim

Rookie
Birds of a feather
I see what you did there.....

It's getting ridiculous how nerve-riddled Serena has become trying to track down the record, but we already saw it against Vinci when she was going for the Calendar Slam. You would have to assume that Osaka will be back to form on the hard courts, and that Serena won't get such a favorable draw again. Court now has a maybe 70-80% chance of keeping the record, and no-one else will likely approach it for a looong time.
 
I see what you did there.....

It's getting ridiculous how nerve-riddled Serena has become trying to track down the record, but we already saw it against Vinci when she was going for the Calendar Slam. You would have to assume that Osaka will be back to form on the hard courts, and that Serena won't get such a favorable draw again. Court now has a maybe 70-80% chance of keeping the record, and no-one else will likely approach it for a looong time.
True, but it's kind of irrelevant anyway, since hardly anyone considers Court the GOAT in any case.
 

Dan Lobb

Legend
More like you're relieved at your politically incorrect white maiden maintaining her lead for now. I suggest you get out more instead of obsessing over such insignificant things. Who knows, you may even learn something from those SJWs that annoy you so much.
What does politics have to do with tennis?
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
It would be interesting if Billie Jean King had 24 Slams and had won the exact same Slams Court did.

Question: Would everyone say Billie Jean is GOAT until her Slam record is surpassed? Or would they say the majority of her slams are worthless (as we now say about Court).

Or if Court were homosexual or maybe black. What if she simply wasn’t outspoken against homosexuality? What if her personality was like Jackie Kennedy or Princess Diana? Would her slam record be more legitimate and respected?

I know, we can’t ask such questions. It’s racist and homophobic (probably even misogynistic) to do so.

Still, I can’t help but wonder.
I never said a thing about the tiresome GOAT debate, but we know culture war is what you're really interested in and I've got better things to do right now than humoring you, thanks.

Can't one just be a homophobe and not a racist too? Or do they go together like red hair and freckles?
Heh, I wish I could buy your aw-shucks schtick but you've expressed your resentment regarding this silly question numerous times. You're not fooling anyone who pays attention.

What does politics have to do with tennis?
Politics is precisely what got the OP and the very first contributor to this thread to bloviate in the first place. If you wanna keep playing dumb take it up with them, not me.
 

Dan Lobb

Legend
I never said a thing about the tiresome GOAT debate, but we know culture war is what you're really interested in and I've got better things to do right now than humoring you, thanks.



Heh, I wish I could buy your aw-shucks schtick but you've expressed your resentment regarding this silly question numerous times. You're not fooling anyone who pays attention.



Politics is precisely what got the OP and the very first contributor to this thread to bloviate in the first place. If you wanna keep playing dumb take it up with them, not me.
Hey, I just asked a simple question, nothing to get riled over. Just the right time to put on some calming Mozart.
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Hey, I just asked a simple question, nothing to get riled over. Just the right time to put on some calming Mozart.
Heh, I just closed on my condo yesterday so you're gonna have to try harder to get me riled up.

And you already know Mozart usually doesn't do much for me. Since I'm skipping tonight's ABT presentation of Swan Lake to catch up on sleep why don't we raise a glass to Tchaikovsky instead:

 

Greatgatsby

Semi-Pro
Clearly, Margaret Court had a great career. Clearly, she has been eclipsed by Serena's modern game and longevity as GOAT.

However, there is the reality that 24>23 and when they show the graphics they have to be honest and show that the old "racist homophobe" has won more major singles titles. I do find that funny because it gnaws at the SJWs.

It was telling today that when ESPN was showing a intro collage of great players they did not show Margaret Court til the very end and if you blinked you missed her. To their credit they did show her even if just for a micro second, and that's good enough for me.
 

Dan Lobb

Legend
Heh, I just closed on my condo yesterday so you're gonna have to try harder to get me riled up.

And you already know Mozart usually doesn't do much for me. Since I'm skipping tonight's ABT presentation of Swan Lake to catch up on sleep why don't we raise a glass to Tchaikovsky instead:

Wonderful from Tchai, and Tchai 's favourite composer was....well, you guessed it, Mozart himself.

Here is the foremost Mozart pianist of the current era playing the most relaxing and profoundly meditative of concertos,

 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Clearly, Margaret Court had a great career. Clearly, she has been eclipsed by Serena's modern game and longevity as GOAT.

However, there is the reality that 24>23 and when they show the graphics they have to be honest and show that the old "racist homophobe" has won more major singles titles. I do find that funny because it gnaws at the SJWs.

It was telling today that when ESPN was showing a intro collage of great players they did not show Margaret Court til the very end and if you blinked you missed her. To their credit they did show her even if just for a micro second, and that's good enough for me.
I guarantee you the vast majority of these "SJWs" (unfortunately your use of the term isn't at all ironic) don't know or care how many Slams either Court or Serena has in the bag. Most of the viewing public aren't tennis nerds who can spit out stats like this, hard as it may be for us to believe as die-hard fanatics of the game. Rather what the socially conscious (casual) fans like in Serena is her overcoming and breaking of the numerous obstacles society has thrown her way. And those of us who don't have their priorities screwed up aren't afraid to call the other SJWs out when it seems nothing she does can ever be wrong, as I did following the brouhaha over last year's USO final.

Also I can tell you that I wish ESPN would give Sampras more exposure in their coverage, but what else do you expect when their job is to promote the current game and its players? Again I suggest you chill and stop moaning about such minor details.

Wonderful from Tchai, and Tchai 's favourite composer was....well, you guessed it, Mozart himself.

Here is the foremost Mozart pianist of the current era playing the most relaxing and profoundly meditative of concertos,

You really need to go easy on this OMG-here's-the-best-evah hyperbole. You do know fine Mozart exponents are a dime a dozen, right? Practically impossible to have listened to them all, but you act like you have and know exactly who the best is.

Anyhoo I'll give that vid a listen after dinner. If she's half as good as Uchida it'll be half an hour well spent.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
The way we determine who is GOAT is based solely on number of slams won............unless the wrong person has won the most slams. Then we need a new criterion.

Just wait until Rafa and Djokovic both surpass Federer’s Slam count.
Yes, and its hypocritical of the usual suspects who routinely spit venom at Court and try to diminish her achievements, yet--in a most laughable manner--try to lift players such as Evert or Navratilova above her. Court winning the Grand Slam is the reason she's one of the GOAT, not a focus on majors count (which is truly a consideration for the group who never won the Grand Slam). So, in that category, Court is superior to Serena, Federer, Navratilova (as much as she--or her fans--still thinks she has any sort of imagined GOAT credentials). Navratilova is bitter as tennis is all she has, and even then, she could not rise above players before her (Court), or after (Graf, Serena).

Next, as you point out, there's another group of "fans" who will move the goal posts the second Nadal and/or Djokovic pass Federer's majors count. They're already doing it with BS arguments such as "most of Rafa am majors be am on clay, so he no GOAT!" Tough. If Nadal passes Federer, no one is going to argue about the number of French Open titles except for those who lie and shift positions when their fandom is threatened. In a way, if Federer wins today, it will only inspire Nadal and Djokovic to keep going until either passes him , which is not impossible, as both are nowhere near retirement, especially in a field overpopulated by their clay pigeons.

Court and Navratilova both breathing a sigh of relief? Court's Slam record remains unmatched; Navratilova retains clear blue water between her 9 Wimbledon titles and Serena's 7.
Her Wimbledon tites mean little to the overall picture she--and her fans--often use to determine status, which is why she's spent years trying to tear Graf down, thanks to the latter's obvious superiority with the Grand Slam as the zenith of her career.
 

Dan Lobb

Legend
Is Court in the stands at Wimbledon? The TV cameras always cut away to Laver but I never see Court.
:unsure:
Is that Barry Court beside her? Barry has challenged the alleged "quotation marks" in the newspaper report which started the controversy. Some "newspaper reports" make "liberal" use of supposed "quotation marks" to give the "impression" that "someone" or "something" is being "quoted"...an old "sleight-of-hand" routine.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Her Wimbledon tites mean little to the overall picture she--and her fans--often use to determine status, which is why she's spent years trying to tear Graf down, thanks to the latter's obvious superiority with the Grand Slam as the zenith of her career.
In no scenario I can think of do Wimbledon titles mean little. :cool:
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
In no scenario I can think of do Wimbledon titles mean little. :cool:

Emphasis on "overall picture." No one has a career based only on the performance at one major, To that end, Navratilova's Wimbledon record does not give her any sort of advantage over Serena and certainly not Court and Graf. If one judges based on GOAT status, she never won the Grand Slam like Court and Graf. If one judges on majors count alone, she falls well behind Serena and Graf, so at the end of it all, in either category, Navratilova--despite her and her fans' dreams--was never the best of the non- Grand Slam winners, and she's certainly not a GOAT player.
 
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Dan Lobb

Legend
Is that Barry Court beside her? Barry has challenged the alleged "quotation marks" in the newspaper report which started the controversy. Some "newspaper reports" make "liberal" use of supposed "quotation marks" to give the "impression" that "someone" or "something" is being "quoted"...an old "sleight-of-hand" routine.
Excuse the "quotes"......just emphasizing the point.
 

Drob

Professional
Enough with the sexual-orientation politics, w all due respect. We are all equal human beings and we should all be free. Full stop. This is a tennis thread, which happens to raise interesting issues about how to evaluate relative tennis careers among the top women in history.

Margaret Smith Court deserves all respect as a player - the most successful serve-volley female player until Martina Navratilova, and one of the top half-dozen or so players of all-time (and slightly better than Billie Jean King as I remember from long ago).

Slams ≠ G.O.A.T. ranking. Or, more carefully, they do not necessarily = G.O.A.T. ranking. Many knowledgeable analysts (that means posters too) think Serena Williams is the greatest of all-time, with a fair number of these believing there is no doubt about it. Some of the most astute analysts pick Navratilova, and their arguments are quite strong, but I don't have the depth of knowledge of the women's game to make an opinion. Steffi Graff deserves consideration, plus Helen Willis Moody. Justine Henin and Martina Hingis were exceptional players. And, but for sad tragedy in the one instance, and fatal tragedy in the other, the G.O.A.T. discussion might be led by Monica Seles and Maureen Connolly. I am no doubt leaving out someone worthy of consideration. But my larger point is that for all their weight, the Slams do not (necessarily) carry the day. There are many other factors.

I
 
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Dan Lobb

Legend
Enough with the sexual-orientation politics, w all due respect. We are all equal human beings and we should all be free. Full stop. This is a tennis thread, which happens to raise interesting issues about how to evaluate relative tennis careers among the top women in history.

Margaret Smith Court deserves all respect as a player - the most successful serve-volley female player until Martina Navratilova, and one of the top half-dozen or so players of all-time (and slightly better than Billie Jean King as I remember from long ago).

Slams ≠ G.O.A.T. ranking. Or, more carefully, they do not necessarily = G.O.A.T. ranking. Many knowledgeable analysts (that means posters too) think Serena Williams is the greatest of all-time, with a fair number of these believing there is no doubt about it. Some of the most astute analysts pick Navratilova, and their arguments are quite strong, but I don't have the depth of knowledge of the women's game to make an opinion. Steffi Graff deserves consideration, plus Helen Willis Moody. Justine Henin and Martina Hingis were exceptional players. And, but for sad tragedy in the one instance, and fatal tragedy in the other, the G.O.A.T. discussion might be led by Monica Seles and Maureen Connolly. I am no doubt leaving out someone worthy of consideration. But my larger point is that for all their weight, the Slams do not (necessarily) carry the day. There are many other factors.

I
True for the men, also.....there is more than slams, and all slams are not equal, the fields differ in strength over time.
 

BTURNER

Hall of Fame
I stopped counting slams ( 24 to 23) determine GOAT years ago. It was an intellectually lazy stage I went through before I came here and tennis historians patiently taught me about historical context. If Court is the greatest of all time, an idea I more than welcome, there needs to be a better case provided than just that number. I am also not overwhelmed with seasonal grandslams or golden slams.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Margaret Smith Court deserves all respect as a player
But as you see, some are so filled with hate for Court, that they have made it their job to attack her GOAT career with limp attempts to rewrite history, & smear her at every turn. What is hypocritical about this group is that they also try to damn Court for beliefs never brought to her time as a professional tennis player, yet they predictably ignore / never hold to the same standard the player(s) they worship who have committed undeniably despicable acts in their personal lives. No, its all about Court. Absolute hypocrisy.

...and tying (and failing) to tear down Court is never going to rewrite history to elevate players who failed to do what she did: earn the GOAT distinction.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
But as you see, some are so filled with hate for Court, that they have made it their job to attack her GOAT career with limp attempts to rewrite history, & smear her at every turn. What is hypocritical about this group is that they also try to damn Court for beliefs never brought to her time as a professional tennis player, yet they predictably ignore / never hold to the same standard the player(s) they worship who have committed undeniably despicable acts in their personal lives. No, its all about Court. Absolute hypocrisy.

...and tying (and failing) to tear down Court is never going to rewrite history to elevate players who failed to do what she did: earn the GOAT distinction.
I'm just curious, not trying to argue here, but do you really believe that Court is the GOAT ?
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
But my larger point is that for all their weight, the Slams do not (necessarily) carry the day.
In this case, the # of Slams carry very little weight as Court's 24 Slams (11 Open Era Slams) do not equal Serena's 23 Open Era Slams.
It is an apples and oranges comparison as many of the best players were excluded from playing the slams during Court's career.*
Court may or may not be the GOAT but the criteria has to be something other than Slam count.

* During the pre-Open Era there was a men's professional tour (Rosewall, Gonzales,etc) and these pro players were excluded from playing Slams. Presumably the best female players were also excluded from playing the slams during Court's early career. But not sure if there was a women's pro tour at the time? Maybe Court was playing the best players in the field even during her pre-Open era Slams. :unsure:
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
I'm just curious, not trying to argue here, but do you really believe that Court is the GOAT ?

She did what it took to achieve the concentrated dominance in the accepted. logical framework of the calendar season, in other words, she won the Grand Slam. The zenith of achievement in the sport. The same applies to Graf.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
In this case, the # of Slams carry very little weight as Court's 24 Slams (11 Open Era Slams) do not equal Serena's 23 Open Era Slams.
It is an apples and oranges comparison as many of the best players were excluded from playing the slams during Court's career.*
Court may or may not be the GOAT but the criteria has to be something other than Slam count.

* During the pre-Open Era there was a men's professional tour (Rosewall, Gonzales,etc) and these pro players were excluded from playing Slams. Presumably the best female players were also excluded from playing the slams during Court's early career. But not sure if there was a women's pro tour at the time? Maybe Court was playing the best players in the field even during her pre-Open era Slams. :unsure:
There was no difference between pre open and post 1968 as such (a handful of women went pro but much earlier than 1968.
It can be argued that some majors had less importance/weight in a players schedule but that goes across the 1968 date.
But no one was "excluded".
 
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atatu

Hall of Fame
She did what it took to achieve the concentrated dominance in the accepted. logical framework of the calendar season, in other words, she won the Grand Slam. The zenith of achievement in the sport. The same applies to Graf.
Ok, but you didn't really answer my question, do you actually believe that she is the greatest of all time ?
 
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THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Ok, but you didn't really answer my question, do you actually believe that she is the greatest of all time ?
That is an answer. Why wlse would anyone refer to Court and Graf, if not for a status--the zenith of achievement in the sport? That does not come sans being among the greatest.
 

TennisLBC

Professional
Can anyone here help me out about something? Has Court ever been greater that Graf? I cannot find anyone credible that would suggest this. Please advise. Thanks.
 
Had Serena tied the record on Saturday, Wimbledon should have had Court on hand for a ceremony. But it appears that Court was not even in attendance.
Now that I think about it, I don't think she was there. I watched the match and I don't remember seeing her or hearing the commentary people talking about her being there.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
That is an answer. Why wlse would anyone refer to Court and Graf, if not for a status--the zenith of achievement in the sport? That does not come sans being among the greatest.
Even that response isn't an answer, now you're saying she is "among the greatest" which certainly makes sense. Saying she is the GOAT...that's a different thing.
 
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I think it is hilarious that Margaret continues to be the all time winningest woman at the majors. Serena has reached three major finals in the last 12 months and won 0 sets in those matches.
. .Your head and salad tongs.




More like you're relieved at your politically incorrect

white maiden

maintaining her lead for now. I suggest you get out more instead of obsessing over such insignificant things. Who knows, you may even learn something from those SJWs that annoy you so much.
Non P, I agree with your sentiments about the OP Serena-trolling (and that Court's "alternative lifestyle prejudice" is mean-spirited, backward-thinking b.s.)........however, you're no better when you play the race card (and in knee-jerk fashion no less) and by doing so illustrate why self-righteous SJW's in their own right have been tagged with the "snowflake" label (not to mention that making cynical assumption in an disingenuous attempt to frame a "not proven" narrative is intellectual sloth to begin with....and not to mention kinda douchy as well).
 

BTURNER

Hall of Fame
Now that I think about it, I don't think she was there. I watched the match and I don't remember seeing her or hearing the commentary people talking about her being there.
I think a lot of invitations to do more than show at these majors, are going missing from her mail box. Must be a mischievous little kid in the neighborhood.
 
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