Margaret Court
- Thread starter KG1965
- Start date
............................
1971:
Perth
Australian Open
Auckland
Durban
Johannesburg
Bournemouth
London
Queen's
Dublin
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati (ILTF)
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
Australian Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
1971:
Perth
Australian Open
Auckland
Durban
Johannesburg
Bournemouth
London
Queen's
Dublin
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati (ILTF)
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
Australian Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
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This brings up a broader point on Court. She is actually now seen as the 'winningest champion' superseding Navratilova in numbers of singles tournaments won. I would like a link to this list of the '191' tournaments Court won from 1959 through 1975. I have to wonder how many over the course of her career, are highly localized and isolated tournaments like the Hobert event in Tasmania, or Auckland that are ballooning that number.
D
Deleted member 735320
Guest
Unfortunately, she will be known more for her views on social issues than for her tennis. She has unintentionally demonstrated why we should never care about what celebrities think outside their realm of fame. If Meryl Streep wants to chime in on method acting or making movies versus television great. She wants to testify on alar or anything outside of acting, then ignore her. Margaret Court's views as a pastor should have been ignored because her only true claim to fame is her stellar tennis career.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
This is a tennis forum so hopefully it will focus on her tennis.
As a side note what displays her ability given the lack of depth and stability of woman's circuits was her mixed doubles ability. She hung with some strong male players of the time. Given the importance of doubles in her era it re-enforces her ability.
I always thought that Navratilova and Evert were the biggest female champions in history (more than Graf and Williams).
I put Evert in first place essentially because I think that in the topical moment Navratilova has cheated
(it's just my feeling not proven by the facts. ..).But I have never studied properly the Court career and I have always underestimated because I thought that most of its majors were poor.
In fact, I think now that the AOs were modest tournaments, equal to the other tournaments that were playing in Australia in other cities.
And that the French Open was a tournament less then the Virginia Slim tournaments.
What I want to do is try to figure out which tournaments are relevant.
The feeling, before I finish my job, is that ... Court was the best tennis femal player of the story.
Karma Tennis
Legend
One of only three women in the history of the sport to win the GRAND SLAM.
A Natural Left Hander who played Right Handed.
First mother to win a Major Tournament Title in the Open Era.
Holds the record for the most Major Tournament Titles in the history of the sport, male or female.
Margaret Smith-Court is certainly in the Top 3 Female Tennis players of all time, and probably in the Top 10 players, male or female of all time.
1965:
Perth
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Miami
Caracas
Mexico City
Atlanta
Manchester
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hoylake
Baden Baden
Hamburg
Moscow
Portschach
US National Ch.
Melbourne invitational
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
Perth
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Miami
Caracas
Mexico City
Atlanta
Manchester
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hoylake
Baden Baden
Hamburg
Moscow
Portschach
US National Ch.
Melbourne invitational
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
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the 191 includes all tournaments in her amateur and pro career. Its hard to know how many are substandard without having the list and having a standard!I always thought that Navratilova and Evert were the biggest female champions in history (more than Graf and Williams).
I put Evert in first place essentially because I think that in the topical moment Navratilova has cheated
But I have never studied properly the Court career and I have always underestimated because I thought that most of its majors were poor.
In fact, I think now that the AOs were modest tournaments, equal to the other tournaments that were playing in Australia in other cities.
And that the French Open was a tournamewnt less then the Virginia Slim tournaments.
What I want to do is try to figure out which tournaments are relevant.
The feeling, before I finish my job, is that ... Court was the best tennis femal player of the story.
If your point is that 'most tournaments won' is a relatively poor metric of greatness without any parameters describing just what constitutes a real tournament ( how many rounds, how many seeds, must they be open to all pros etc) and without any division based on quality, then I agree. Certainly both Evert and Navratilova won some marginal events not a whole better, that are labeled 'pro tournaments' in their career stats. I have a list for Evert's but not Navratilova or Court's.
From 1965 onwards these are the Big Titles ... but I still have a lot of work to do .... First we need to see the titles won until 1964. I have only entered one Autsralian Open on 11, but I have to do some other verification.
1965:
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hamburg
US National Ch.
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
1966:
Hamburg
1967: -
1968:
Boston
Berkeley
London (Bristish Covered Court Ch.)
1969:
Houston River Oaks
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Philadelphia
Boston
US Open
Berkeley
1970:
New York (Vanderbilt MSG)
Philadelphia (US Pro Indoor)
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Wimbledon
Merion Pennsylvanya
Toronto
US Open
1971:
Bournemouth
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
1965:
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hamburg
US National Ch.
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
1966:
Hamburg
1967: -
1968:
Boston
Berkeley
London (Bristish Covered Court Ch.)
1969:
Houston River Oaks
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Philadelphia
Boston
US Open
Berkeley
1970:
New York (Vanderbilt MSG)
Philadelphia (US Pro Indoor)
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Wimbledon
Merion Pennsylvanya
Toronto
US Open
1971:
Bournemouth
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
1964:
Melbourne (Royal South Tarra Tournament)
Australian Ch. (Brisbane)
Auckland
Reggio Calabria
Rome
Berlin
French Ch.
Losanna
Queen's
Dusseldorf
Gstaad
Hilversum
Hannover
Hamburg
Brisbane (Quennsland HC Ch.)
Brisbane (Queensland Ch.)
Sydney
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Melbourne (Royal South Tarra Tournament)
Australian Ch. (Brisbane)
Auckland
Reggio Calabria
Rome
Berlin
French Ch.
Losanna
Queen's
Dusseldorf
Gstaad
Hilversum
Hannover
Hamburg
Brisbane (Quennsland HC Ch.)
Brisbane (Queensland Ch.)
Sydney
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
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PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Margaret Court is a ...... work in progress.....
MLRoy
Hall of Fame
The above is my theory as to why Tennis Channel ignores all tennis pre-Williams. Wish I had a dollar for every accolade paid to a certain 2018 US Open losing finalist by the TV bobbleheads; including those given right after that abysmal match.
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
Let's just say she respected her as a competitor......
The Court's career is incredible, I must discover its early years, but it is clear that we are facing a colossus.Margaret Court is a ...... work in progress.....
Starting from 1964 she won all the best tournaments available at that time and my impression is that his career was interrupted in two cases.
Without those two interruptions the potential is higher than that of all the other female champions.
In 1964 she wins in Australia and Europe (she defeats the american tournaments) but especially in Australia the tournaments won are particularly important.
In 1965 she won a lot in Australia where she also won a good edition of the Australian Ch., then on English grass wins at Beckenham, Wimbledon, Edgbaston.
An excellent Hamburg on the red clay. Finally she is imposing to the US National Ch. and other great australian tournaments.
Then she withdraws temporarily for the birth of a child. In the three-year period 1966-68 she won only 4 great events: Hamburg, Boston, Berkeley and London (Bristish Covered Court Ch.)
In 1969 she won many great titles (Houston River Oaks, Bournemouth, French Open, Bristol, Philadelphia, Boston, US Open, Berkeley) and in 1970 she won the GS and also in New York (Vanderbilt MSG), Philadelphia, Bournemouth, Bristol, Merion Pennsylvanya and Toronto, all great events.
In 1971 she did not take part in the most important circuit (Virginia Slims). She won 3 big tournaments in 1972.
In 1973 she dominated tennis again, dominating the Virginia Slims Tour, winning 14 tournaments in the circuit, as well as the French Open, last slam.
I miss analyzing and evaluating the early 60s, but even without those years my impression is that (despite a few of the AO wins have importance) Margaret's palmares is stratospheric especially considering that she has lost so many years of peak's tennis for his sons.
I think that at the end of the path I will place Court at the top. Even above my goddess, Evert.
I have always considered the Evert GOAT, including the men.
At this point I start to think that the Court is > Evert.
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Karma Tennis
Legend
What's Margaret's record against Bobby Riggs?
Who cares? I don't think that Court did.
Karma Tennis
Legend
Well, I finally got around to seeing the full video of that match a few weeks ago. I don't think it was televised Down Under at the time.
My impression is that she certainly DID care. If you look at the way she played that match that day, she appeared to be the "Deer in the Headlights". It was very very un-Margaret like. She later said that she had felt very tense that day. And that would certainly explain her very poor form.
Unless of course ... the whole thing was a Set Up ... to convince Billie Jean to change her mind and play Bobby
Bobby played his best, to set up the King match.Well, I finally got around to seeing the full video of that match a few weeks ago. I don't think it was televised Down Under at the time.
My impression is that she certainly DID care. If you look at the way she played that match that day, she appeared to be the "Deer in the Headlights". It was very very un-Margaret like. She later said that she had felt very tense that day. And that would certainly explain her very poor form.
Unless of course ... the whole thing was a Set Up ... to convince Billie Jean to change her mind and play Bobby
But Margaret was playing way too cautiously, not like her usual aggressive game, just waiting for Bobby to implode and get tired, which he didn't.
Bad strategy for Court, and the commentator pointed that out.
Court recovered well and dominated the women's circuit the next year, so it didn't faze her or bother her afterwards.
[LOL, can you still edit this? You have literally turned Margaret Court into a man. I have highlighted the mistakes in red. My guess is that the 's' key sticks on your laptop. Its a bit disconcerting because this 'he' has given birth a lot of times. What is more amusing is that he would have married a man named Barry Court, and we all know how well that would go over in Pastor Court's church]
To your content, yes Court was a colossus in her era - virtually everywhere and everyone - but at Centre Court. Three wins and two other finals is pretty substandard for a serve and volleyer of her stature who played 12 times. She really underperformed at Wimbledon. Had she not had those kids, she definitely would have grabbed more titles, but those forced long breaks may have actually helped her with possible burn out issues and reduced wear and tear her joints so that her career at the very top could stay sustained.
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It seems to me very interesting to note how the 1963 calendar develops (It would be interesting to dwell on all the years but it takes a lot of time).
Basically the top players are: Court, Turner, Bueno, Haydon-Jones, King, Hard, Lehane, Richey, Ebbern, Sukova.
Australian women (Court, Turner, Lehane, and Ebbern) always play in Australia and much in Europe.
American women (Bueno, Richey, King and King) play in the USA and in Europe.
European women (Haydon-Jones and Sukova) play in Europe.
Almost as if they were two separate circuits. it's only at Wimbledon and USO.
The main opponent IMHO is Turner who wins to
Sydney
Launceston
Auckland
Miami
Barranquilla
Montego Bay
Kingston
Montecarlo
Aix en Provence
Reggio Calabria
Napoli
French Open
Hilversum
Perth.
Basically the top players are: Court, Turner, Bueno, Haydon-Jones, King, Hard, Lehane, Richey, Ebbern, Sukova.
Australian women (Court, Turner, Lehane, and Ebbern) always play in Australia and much in Europe.
American women (Bueno, Richey, King and King) play in the USA and in Europe.
European women (Haydon-Jones and Sukova) play in Europe.
Almost as if they were two separate circuits. it's only at Wimbledon and USO.
The main opponent IMHO is Turner who wins to
Sydney
Launceston
Auckland
Miami
Barranquilla
Montego Bay
Kingston
Montecarlo
Aix en Provence
Reggio Calabria
Napoli
French Open
Hilversum
Perth.
D
Deleted member 735320
Guest
Her first child was born in 1972. The earlier retirement was not because of a baby.
Karma Tennis
Legend
It's widely documented that she'd become bored with the sport and associated travel. She decided to make up for the fun she had missed as a teenager.
She returned home to Perth and opened a Fashion Store. In late 1967 she got married to Barry Court and eventually had another crack at Professional Tennis at the dawn of the Open Era which ended up being quite successful for her.
I thank you for the very important clarification.
Basically she retires twice, the second one for the child.
Then the third withdrawal always for the second child.
The fact remains that his career is on the rise to become dominant until the first temporary withdrawal.
Then again in ascent and domination and new temporary withdrawal.
Then again in ascent and domination and new temporary withdrawal.
Finally the final withdrawal.
Never seen anything like it, but neither does it come close.
Maria Bueno and Christine Truman were the top two seeds at the 60 Australian Ch. Margret Smith beat Bueno in the quarter finals, Jan Lehane beat Truman in the semis. Bueno was the YE #1 in 59-60, Truman was #2 in 59, #4 in 60. Therefore, I think Court's 60 Aussie Ch. deserves to be considered a major slam win.
It could be that you're right, I should make a further effort on the Court's AOs. I do not know if I will.
BIG TITLES
1960:
Australian Ch. (Melbourne)
1961:
Beckenham
Queen’s
1962
Sydney Mainly Seaside (Sydney)
Australian Ch. (Sydney)
Rome
French Ch.
Bristol
Philadelphia
Orange
Essex Ch. (Manchester)
US National
Brisbane
Adelaide
Sydney
Melbourne
1963:
French Open
1964: -
1965:
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hamburg
US National Ch.
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
1966:
Hamburg
1967: -
1968:
Boston
Berkeley
London (Bristish Covered Court Ch.)
1969:
Houston River Oaks
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Philadelphia
Boston
US Open
Berkeley
1970:
New York (Vanderbilt MSG)
Philadelphia (US Pro Indoor)
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Wimbledon
Merion Pennsylvanya
Toronto
US Open
1971:
Bournemouth
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
1960:
Australian Ch. (Melbourne)
1961:
Beckenham
Queen’s
1962
Sydney Mainly Seaside (Sydney)
Australian Ch. (Sydney)
Rome
French Ch.
Bristol
Philadelphia
Orange
Essex Ch. (Manchester)
US National
Brisbane
Adelaide
Sydney
Melbourne
1963:
French Open
1964: -
1965:
Melbourne (Australian Ch.)... best edition comparaded to others.
Beckenham
Wimbledon
Edgbaston
Hamburg
US National Ch.
Brisbane
Melbourne (Victorian Ch.)
Sydney
1966:
Hamburg
1967: -
1968:
Boston
Berkeley
London (Bristish Covered Court Ch.)
1969:
Houston River Oaks
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Philadelphia
Boston
US Open
Berkeley
1970:
New York (Vanderbilt MSG)
Philadelphia (US Pro Indoor)
Bournemouth
French Open
Bristol
Wimbledon
Merion Pennsylvanya
Toronto
US Open
1971:
Bournemouth
1972:
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims Albany
Cincinnati
1973:
Virginia Slims Oakland
Virginia Slims Los Angeles
Virginia Slims Washington
Virginia Slims Miami
Virginia Slims Detroit
Virginia Slims Chicago
Virginia Slims Richmond
Virginia Slims Philadelphia
Virginia Slims Boston
Virginia Slims Jacksonville
Virginia Slims Nashville
Virginia Slims Allaire
Virginia Slims Newport
Virginia Slims New York
French Open
1975
Virginia Slims Chicago
No way, man. She is №1 in women's tennis. Anything else is secondary (she did not kill anybody, didn't she?)
Williams-mafia. Very expecting from that kind of a person.
Court beat Bueno in two Aussie Ch, one in a quarterfinal the other in the final. She beat BJK in two others, one in a semi, the other in a final. She also beat Goolagong in two other finals when Evonne was a top player, 71 and 73. She did lose a final to BJK in 68, just coming back from a year off the tour.
73- US OPEN
From what I have read, Margret grew up in a conservative Catholic household.. As a player, she was very quiet avoiding publicity whenever possible. It seems that she became a non Catholic religious zealot and preacher after she left the tour. I was shocked when I first heard that she was so outspoken about religion and politics, considering her tennis life.
EloQuent
Legend
Catholic? Huh. Catholics don't have female clergy.
D
Deleted member 735320
Guest
No she certainly did not kill anybody but she is a traditional voice against the PC world which for many is probably worse. I think it will be most fitting if Serena is unable to eclipse her 24 singles at the Majors.
What is wrong with traditional world? (By the way what is PC world?) It could be wrong for perverse minded people only.
Take it from me, as a gay man who has lived among many religious sorts. One would be foolish to hazard a guess about her views based solely on religious affiliation or her silence. Why not ask Chris Evert the born and raised catholic, her views on same sex marriage? This theory of yours is just not going to work. the word for this is 'stereotyping'
r2473
G.O.A.T.
Evert would (and has) told us.
With how outspoken Serena is on many / most current issues of social justice, her silence on this is strange.
Of course, I could have it exactly backwards. She may be quiet because her views are against the teachings of her religion. And if she reveals them, it could put her in conflict with her church (which is very important to her).
So your objection stands. My view is pure speculation.
With that said, I wouldn’t say what I’m doing is stereotyping. She says she’s Jehovahs Witness. And their beliefs are not secret. So it’s more than just stereotyping to assume she holds to these beliefs if she is Jehovahs Witness.
But yes, I understand your point. Many Catholics aren’t against birth control for example, even if they don’t publicly say so. But I wouldn’t want to say that assuming someone agrees with the beliefs of their faith is stereotyping. That doesn’t seem like what the word means to me
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