Maria Sharapova current Hall of Fame status?

[Bartelby]

The ITF actually took a very hard line in its argument to the first hearing.

They actually asserted the legally absurd proposition that intention could be ascertained objectively with no reference to subjective intent.

This was because they had nothing to lead on subjective intent and yet their counsel was still arguing for four years.

The ITF were absolutely shameful and Sharapova was only rescued by CAS.

 

[captainbryce]

Forgetting all of her other accomplishments, the career grand slam is such a rare feat that it automatically qualifies someone for the Hall of Fame IMO.

 

[kabob]

The ITF actually took a very hard line in its argument to the first hearing.

They actually asserted the legally absurd proposition that intention could be ascertained objectively with no reference to subjective intent.

This was because they had nothing to lead on subjective intent and yet their counsel was still arguing for four years.

The ITF were absolutely shameful and Sharapova was only rescued by CAS.

I will agree with you that they were trying to set a precedence with Sharapova as a deterrent to any future drug cheating or using the excuse that they failed to make themselves aware of the rules. Otherwise, they wouldn't have initially requested the maximum 4 year ban.

 

[xFedal]

If she din't cheat whilst winning Career Grand Slam then I say she deserves hall of status due to her rare feat.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Sharapova is being treated pretty much in line with any other athlete that's tested positive for Meldonium in the last year.

Talking about other drug takers in Tennis, not Athletics etc.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Name the "ton of banned substances they have been allowed to take for years" then. And if it's just non-anabolic steroids, you have no leg to stand on.

Come now-Sharapova was taking something with no proven value either. Just certain players can get a prescription for certain banned things & it is fine. We have seen how the TUE thing has been used.abused in UFC.

 

[kabob]

Talking about other drug takers in Tennis, not Athletics etc.

The 1990s don't apply, though. The WADA and ITF acknowledged that they'd been too lax and things are more stringent now. I guarantee if Sharapova were around in the 90s, she would have gotten away with it just like Andre Agassi got away with it when he tested positive by saying he accidentally ingested meth.

 

[kabob]

Come now-Sharapova was taking something with no proven value either. Just certain players can get a prescription for certain banned things & it is fine. We have seen how the TUE thing has been used.abused in UFC.

It most certainly has been abused in the UFC, especially with the vague science of testosterone treatments to get athletes' numbers "more normal." But, as you said, we're talking tennis here.

 

[bigserving]

If she din't cheat whilst winning Career Grand Slam then I say she deserves hall of status due to her rare feat.

She has admitted that she was using meldonium when she won her majors.

 

[MatsPhilander]

She has admitted that she was using meldonium when she won her majors.

It wasn't on the banned list until January 2016, so everything in her career up until January 1st 2016 was done legally.

 

[kabob]

It wasn't on the banned list until January 2016, so everything in her career up until January 1st 2016 was done legally.

She wasn't punished for taking it prior to Jan 2016. It was only on the 1-year watch list the prior year. I think she might have actually had a case for a shorter sentence or her suspension completely turned over if she'd done what the Russian athletes who were banned in Rio did and say that she'd stopped taking Meldonium prior to the ban citing that the WADA had done insufficient research into how long it took the drug to metabolize out of the body. But she admitted taking it during Aussie Open '16 after she tested positive so her fate was sealed. CAS did take into account her admission and reduced her sentence to 18 months, on the other hand.

 

[Soianka]

Name the "ton of banned substances they have been allowed to take for years" then. And if it's just non-anabolic steroids, you have no leg to stand on.

The guy is full of it. One of the Williams sisters has an autoimmune disease and the other one had a pulmonary embolism. Both conditions require prolonged treatment with medication.

Yet, they are in his sick mind the drug cheats and the one caught red-handed taking a banned substance, Sharapova, is the innocent here.

We're screwed as a population in that at this point in time what many people believe is true is simply whatever they wish were true. Facts and logic mean nothing.

 

[Phoenix1983]

I voted that she should be out. But if a scumbag like Bill Tilden can be in the hall of fame... I guess Sharapova is a saint compared to him.

Let them all in!

I get where you're coming from, but I think inclusion should be based on achievements, not a person's character. After all, I believe you rank Tilden #2 all time, so you can't deny he has a very important place in tennis history?

 

[kabob]

I get where you're coming from, but I think inclusion should be based on achievements, not a person's character. After all, I believe you rank Tilden #2 all time, so you can't deny he has a very important place in tennis history?

Bob Hewitt was a serial rapist that sexually assaulted girls in his charge as young 12 years old for years and years while other players and parents looked the other way. You really want a guy like that celebrated? Tilden was caught not once, not twice, but three times molesting teenage boys as young as 13. But sure, tennis achievements are more important than "character."

 

[Phoenix1983]

Bob Hewitt was a serial rapist that sexually assaulted girls in his charge as young 12 years old for years and years while other players and parents looked the other way. You really want a guy like that celebrated? Tilden was caught not once, not twice, but three times molesting teenage boys as young as 13. But sure, tennis achievements are more important than "character."

It's not whether they're more important. It's what inclusion in a Tennis Hall of Fame should be about. For me, it should be about achievements/legacy in the sport.

 

[kabob]

It's not whether they're more important. It's what inclusion in a Tennis Hall of Fame should be about. For me, it should be about achievements/legacy in the sport.

No Hall of Fame doesn't take into account major crimes committed when considering induction, and tennis isn't/shouldn't be an exception. It'd be disgusting if Hewitt, at the very least, wasn't kicked out. He destroyed those women's lives.

 

[Phoenix1983]

No Hall of Fame doesn't take into account major crimes committed when considering induction, and tennis isn't/shouldn't be an exception. It'd be disgusting if Hewitt, at the very least, wasn't kicked out. He destroyed those women's lives.

A person's work/art should be separated from their personal character, IMHO.

Don't know what more to say. If you disagree with me, you probably always will - so no point continuing the discussion.

 

[kabob]

I don't think many people will nod along with you that serial rapists of children should be inducted, guy. This isn't a matter of agree to disagree.

 

[Bartelby]

They weren't trying to set a precedent. They were trying to fall in line with the US State Department.

The Head of the Paralympians now wants the entire Russian squad banned at the next Olympics just because you can't trust Russkis!!!

I will agree with you that they were trying to set a precedence with Sharapova as a deterrent to any future drug cheating or using the excuse that they failed to make themselves aware of the rules. Otherwise, they wouldn't have initially requested the maximum 4 year ban.

 

[kabob]

Well, you can't if they do state-sponsored cheating.

 

[mightyrick]

I get where you're coming from, but I think inclusion should be based on achievements, not a person's character. After all, I believe you rank Tilden #2 all time, so you can't deny he has a very important place in tennis history?

I don't disagree. I'll be honest, in all of these GOAT discussions and HOF discussions, this is the one thing which I never feel solid about. On one day, I won't care... and on another day... I feel like dirt even putting these people in places of respect.

I mean... we're talking about a rapist and sodomizer of children. Think about that. It gives me chills. Just horrible.

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

IN

She won one Slam (the biggest one, the one that the new HOF member A-Virus never won) without that meldonium thing anyway and it was legal during all her significant achievements. Let's not pretend there isn't any other suspicious stuff that top players use nowadays that isn't banned (yet). If there are loopholes in the rules hardly anyone will miss a chance to use them.

Plus I want to see Mladenovic and especially Bouchard whine a bit more.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

In.

 

[Tshooter]

...I think inclusion should be based on achievements, not a person's character...

That's one way to do it.

However, if the HOF wants to go that way they should stop pretending they take anything other than achievements into account and change their criteria to delete the reference to integrity and character.

Americans collectively deleted it by elevating a long-time, local Con Man/ TV character to POTUS so it would be entirely consistent with the times. Winning is all that matters to be honored. It doesn't matter what you did to " win" either. MAGA !

 

[Bartelby]

Russia admitted to cheating and cleaned it up, as all acknowledge, but the various Knights of the British Empire who run various sports feel that they now must earn their Knighthood jousting, yet again, with Russians in battle.

The Sharapova case is constantly mentioned in this context as an example of how all Russians cheat and how all Russians under the evil Putin must be excluded from global civil society.

Only a German like Bach for the IOC can stand up to the Russophobes. He is of course routinely denounced in the press as an appeaser.

Well, you can't if they do state-sponsored cheating.

 

[MatsPhilander]

She wasn't punished for taking it prior to Jan 2016. It was only on the 1-year watch list the prior year. I think she might have actually had a case for a shorter sentence or her suspension completely turned over if she'd done what the Russian athletes who were banned in Rio did and say that she'd stopped taking Meldonium prior to the ban citing that the WADA had done insufficient research into how long it took the drug to metabolize out of the body. But she admitted taking it during Aussie Open '16 after she tested positive so her fate was sealed. CAS did take into account her admission and reduced her sentence to 18 months, on the other hand.

Indeed, so why are people calling for her not to be in the HOF because she spent a decade 'cheating'?

bigserving, Yesterday at 8:30 PM Report

xFedal said: ↑
If she din't cheat whilst winning Career Grand Slam then I say she deserves hall of status due to her rare feat.

She has admitted that she was using meldonium when she won her majors.

 

[MatsPhilander]

The guy is full of it. One of the Williams sisters has an autoimmune disease and the other one had a pulmonary embolism. Both conditions require prolonged treatment with medication.

Yet, they are in his sick mind the drug cheats and the one caught red-handed taking a banned substance, Sharapova, is the innocent here.

We're screwed as a population in that at this point in time what many people believe is true is simply whatever they wish were true. Facts and logic mean nothing.

On the contrary, I am pointing out the stupidity of the WADA testing programme that something can be legal for so long-Sharapova was taking it for a decade with no issues, then without any actual evidence it hits a banned list, then she fails a test for it a few weeks later & that somehow makes her a cheat who should never play Tennis again or be considered for the HOF. Caffeine will likely end up back on the list again in the future. If however you can get a doctor to sign a piece of paper then you can put as many banned drugs in your system as you like for years on end & with Serena there are issues-

It was alleged that she managed to evade drug testers (for OC) entirely for two years in 2010 and 2011. She covered up failed ICs by citing phantom injuries. She also famously locked herself in a panic room and called 911 when an out-of-competition tester called on her in October 2011. She never provided a sample afterwards and the tennis authorities did not answer why.

Serena was one of the players (including Venus Williams, Jennifer Capriati and Lindsey Davenport) who protested against the WTA’s new drug testing rules in 2000 which led to the cancellation of WTA’s off-season testing program too. She has protested vociferously against any attempts made by the WTA/ITF to make testing more rigorous and stringent. She once reportedly declared that “women don’t need to be tested because women don’t take steroids”. She also raised similar objections before the 2004 Olympics in Athens until the WTA gave in. However, the IOC did not and Williams ended up withdrawing from the games.

 

[MatsPhilander]

It's not whether they're more important. It's what inclusion in a Tennis Hall of Fame should be about. For me, it should be about achievements/legacy in the sport.

There has to be a line somewhere-raping kids should bar you/get you kicked out, as should murder.

 

[MatsPhilander]

I voted that she should be out. But if a scumbag like Bill Tilden can be in the hall of fame... I guess Sharapova is a saint compared to him.

Let them all in!

 

[Mr.Lob]

Sharapova is in the Hall of Fame. Get real.

 

[MatsPhilander]

I will agree with you that they were trying to set a precedence with Sharapova as a deterrent to any future drug cheating or using the excuse that they failed to make themselves aware of the rules. Otherwise, they wouldn't have initially requested the maximum 4 year ban.

Incredible that they would even think of trying to ban somebody for 4 years for a first offence of something she had been taking for a decade with no issues & was legal until just a few weeks earlier. Where is the consistency? Cilic gets a 9 month ban reduced to 4 months on appeal. Troicki refuses to be tested & gets an 18 month ban which is then reduced to 12 months on appeal. Gasquet gets a 12 month ban & then gets the benefit of the doubt on appeal that he kissed some random woman. Agassi takes meth & the authorities cover it up after he tells them it was an accident. Rusedski & others get off scot-free from testing positive after claiming a tainted supplements even though tests on the supplements found no evidence they would cause failures. Odesnik was given a 2 year ban later reduced to 1 year for importing HGH after finking others out & then tests positive for a multitude of drugs including steroids. Hingis was inducted into the HOF after being banned for 2 years for cocaine, nor is anybody calling for her to be expelled either, so it boils down to people don't like Sharapova because of her frosty personality & that she is Russian.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hingis was inducted into the ITHoF in 2013. Let's not forget that she was suspended for 2 years after testing positive for a metabolite of cocaine.

(Looks like MatsP beat me to the punch on this).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Out

Repeat after me: once a cheater always a cheater

Since meldo was not banned when Maria won her titles, pls explain how she is a cheater.

And while you're at it, consider this. Creatine, caffeine and nicotine are all considered to be performance enhancing. Yet, for the most part, these are legal substances. There appears to be more evidence for performance enhancement for these substances than the meager (non-existent?) evidence for meldonium. Should athletes who use creatine, caffeine or nicotine to enhance their cognitive/athletic performance also be considered cheaters?

BTW, both caffeinne and nicotine has been under consideration by WADA. Not sure about creatine.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

She has admitted that she was using meldonium when she won her majors.

Ok, but that is not evidence of cheating. Or should we consider athletes, who knowingly take other legal substances to enhance performance, to be cheaters? Again, I'm talking about substances like creatine, caffeine and nicotine.

 

[Shaolin]

I really doubt she gets in. They factor in things like integrity and she falls short in that dept.

They also probably don't want to deal with the controversy/questions that'll arise with the induction.

Easier to not put her in at all than to do it and then deal with the fallout and hassle.

 

[Bukmeikara]

They would accept her without a doubt... unless offcource she kills someone. Probably wont be immediately because of the "global attack" against Russia but once the political scene become calmer, she would be in.

 

[MatsPhilander]

I really doubt she gets in. They factor in things like integrity and she falls short in that dept.

They also probably don't want to deal with the controversy/questions that'll arise with the induction.

Easier to not put her in at all than to do it and then deal with the fallout and hassle.

They factor in integrity? Do me a favour.

Andre Agassi-admitted to tanking matches, copious drug abuse & lying about why he failed a drugs test which is all admitted in his excellent book.
Michael Chang-served underarm in his only grand slam victory.
John McEnroe-appalling conduct towards umpires his entire career, admitted cocaine & steroid user.
Margaret Court-would like to see gays & lesbians exterminated.
Martina Hingis-banned for cocaine use
Bill Tilden-pedophile who liked sexually assaulting underage boys from 12-16 years old
Ilie Năstase-appalling conduct towards umpires his entire career, banned as Davis Cup captain due to his behaviour in 1994, in 2017 made a racial remark about Serena Williams, asked for the room number of his opposite number, calling her & Jo Konta insulting sexist names, more sexual putdowns to a female journalist-banned again for this & later allegations made from the Belgium team & Pam Shriver about his conduct.

 

[Shaolin]

They factor in integrity? Do me a favour.

Andre Agassi-admitted to tanking matches, copious drug abuse & lying about why he failed a drugs test which is all admitted in his excellent book.
Michael Chang-served underarm in his only grand slam victory.
John McEnroe-appalling conduct towards umpires his entire career, admitted cocaine & steroid user.
Margaret Court-would like to see gays & lesbians exterminated.
Martina Hingis-banned for cocaine use
Bill Tilden-pedophile who liked sexually assaulting underage boys from 12-16 years old
Ilie Năstase-appalling conduct towards umpires his entire career, banned as Davis Cup captain due to his behaviour in 1994, in 2017 made a racial remark about Serena Williams, asked for the room number of his opposite number, calling her & Jo Konta insulting sexist names, more sexual putdowns to a female journalist-banned again for this & later allegations made from the Belgium team & Pam Shriver about his conduct.

Are you kidding with the Michael Chang underhand serve thing? I question your sanity if you think that's a legit reason to not be in the HOF.

Agassi, McEnroe, Hingis…doing some recreational drugs =/= long term usage of performance enhancers and then lying about it, saying it was for diabetes.

Nastase…acting like a jerk still not as bad as what Sharapova did.

Court, Tilden…probably shouldn't be in the HOF I agree, however what they did had no effect on cheating their tennis opponents of wins like Maria did.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Are you kidding with the Michael Chang underhand serve thing? I question your sanity if you think that's a legit reason to not be in the HOF.

Agassi, McEnroe, Hingis…doing some recreational drugs =/= long term usage of performance enhancers and then lying about it, saying it was for diabetes.

Nastase…acting like a jerk still not as bad as what Sharapova did.

Court, Tilden…probably shouldn't be in the HOF I agree, however what they did had no effect on cheating their tennis opponents of wins like Maria did.

Chang was a weak one-but it was still blatant nonsense & unfair to Lendl-it was every bit as distasteful as the Chappell underarm incident while both were technically legal but morally bankrupt. So you agree Mac & Hingis are just as bad as Sharapova yet they are in-McEnroe aside from being on coke took steroids for six years while playing. Tilden just cheated minors out of their childhood by sexually assaulting them-obviously nowhere near as bad as a woman taking something she had been using for a decade when it was totally legal, has not been shown to have any effects on performance & then making a comeback after serving her time.

The point was you said the HOF has integrity as a core value-it doesn't, it has cocaine users, steroid users, militant homophobes, pedophiles, people with abysmal conduct towards officials etc.

 

[SLD76]

The game of tennis has not yet had to address the issue of PED use, or major rules violations, when it comes to Hall Of Fame enshrinement. Major league baseball is going through it now with Rose, Clemons, Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, and others. We have never had a player of HOF caliber penalized as severely as Maria Sharapova.

What do you think? I am interested to hear opinions about her current status, but most importantly the rationale behind those opinions.

She won a slam at 17 and a tour final

That qualifies her long before whenever her doping began

 

[Bartelby]

Her so-called doping did begin at 19. Meldonium is, however, the emperor's new claothes,

 

[MatsPhilander]

Wada currently struggling over whether or not to put caffeine back on the prohibited list. Guess anybody caught drinking coffee or eating a chocolate bar should be banned & never allowed into/booted out of the HOF. Poor Fed will have to give up his Lindt-in fact by the logic of some here he has been cheating most of his career by consuming it. Seems to actually have some effect on performance, unlike Meldonium where there is zero scientific evidence of it having any effect. But such is the make it up as you go along stance of WADA & the hatred towards Russians who don't kiss babies.

Effects on Performance

During periods of 30-120 minutes caffeine has been shown to produce the following benefits:

• Improved muscle contractability
• Increased time to exhaustion
• Improved concentration
• Enhanced alertness
• Reduced fatigue

 

[bigserving]

She won a slam at 17 and a tour final

That qualifies her long before whenever her doping began

Actually, beginning next year, it takes three majors to qualify for the Hall. That means that she has admitted that she was clearly doping during the time that she accomplished her qualifying HOF achievements.

Does that make a difference or change perspective?

 

[MatsPhilander]

Actually, beginning next year, it takes three majors to qualify for the Hall. That means that she has admitted that she was clearly doping during the time that she accomplished her qualifying HOF achievements.

Does that make a difference or change perspective?

She didn't pop for a banned substance until January 2016 so all her wins were clean.

 

[*Sparkle*]

The results were clean (as far as we know) at the time she achieved them, so I don't think she can be ruled out forever, but I would like to see a little bit of humility and a sense that she's accepted responsibility, and that she needs to work her way back. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem that way inclined, and when she's being invited to high profile exhibitions by people from the tennis establishment, and has big businesses, such as Nike and HEAD wanting her to be excused so they can continue to take advantage of having a pretty, leggy blonde on their books.

 

[bigserving]

My take is that if she needed to use Meldonium to win those titles, then she is a total fraud. When she got busted, she claimed that she used for medical conditions. She amassed a huge fortune behind cheating so she is OUT, now.

On the other hand, if she continues to test clean and post some results that shows that she can compete at a Hall of Fame level without juicing in order to win titles, I am much more likely to be behind her acceptance into the Hall.

 

[MatsPhilander]

My take is that if she needed to use Meldonium to win those titles, then she is a total fraud. When she got busted, she claimed that she used for medical conditions. She amassed a huge fortune behind cheating so she is OUT, now.

On the other hand, if she continues to test clean and post some results that shows that she can compete at a Hall of Fame level without juicing in order to win titles, I am much more likely to be behind her acceptance into the Hall.

There is zero scientific evidence to suggest that it has any positive effect on performance, unlike caffeine-so any Tennis player taking that since 2004 has been allowed to do so legally despite the proven advantage it gives, so yeah basically any Tennis player drinking coffee or eating chocolate has had an advantage. Frankly WADA is a complete joke of an outfit who just make it up as they go along. Besides which this drug was legal until January 1st 2016-so even if you buy into WADA's pseudo-scientific ruling then she did nothing wrong until the beginning of January 2016 & neither did any other athlete using it & traces of the drug stays in the system for months . http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/wada-wadas-bad-science/

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

My take is that if she needed to use Meldonium to win those titles, then she is a total fraud. When she got busted, she claimed that she used for medical conditions. She amassed a huge fortune behind cheating so she is OUT, now.

On the other hand, if she continues to test clean and post some results that shows that she can compete at a Hall of Fame level without juicing in order to win titles, I am much more likely to be behind her acceptance into the Hall.

No telling if a player at 30 years old and 15 years on the tour can still perform at the same level that she did in her late teens and mid 20s. A few extraordinary players have been able to keep performing at an elite level in their 30s or after more than a decade on the tour. But this is not the norm. Henin retired at 29 and Graf retired at 30. Plenty have retired earlier because of injuries.

Not seen any compelling evidence that demonstrates that Meldo has provided any significant performance enhancing edge, if any at all. Perhaps it provided a placebo effect, improved a medical condition or had no discernible effect whatsoever. How about players who use caffeine or other legal substances to improve athletic performance? Are they frauds as well? Was Djokovic cheating by employing a CVAC egg chamber to improve performance and recovery?

 

[MatsPhilander]

The results were clean (as far as we know) at the time she achieved them, so I don't think she can be ruled out forever, but I would like to see a little bit of humility and a sense that she's accepted responsibility, and that she needs to work her way back. Unfortunately, she doesn't seem that way inclined, and when she's being invited to high profile exhibitions by people from the tennis establishment, and has big businesses, such as Nike and HEAD wanting her to be excused so they can continue to take advantage of having a pretty, leggy blonde on their books.

She admitted her error & served the sentence, why should she be punished more by going to play total nobodies who have a trillionth of her ability in front of two men & a dog in Hicksville just so people can punish her some more for their twisted logic? She cannot control who books her & frankly she is too big of an attraction that the big tournaments are not going to book her. She came back after a year out & beat three highly ranked players off the bat which proves that she has no business being in anything other than in the big events. Nike & Head obviously want her back-they are businesses looking to make as much money & she is the most marketable female in Tennis other than maybe Serena & again there is no need to excuse her-she served her time.

 

[Bartelby]

You go from saying 'if' to concluding without so much as an argument. Without an argument you are stuck on 'if'.

My take is that if she needed to use Meldonium to win those titles, then she is a total fraud. When she got busted, she claimed that she used for medical conditions. She amassed a huge fortune behind cheating so she is OUT, now..