Martina Navratilova: Shut Up

[AngieB]

Everyone knows that Martina Navratilova has held a long-standing grudge against Steffi Graf ever since Graf overtook her #1 position and won the calendar year grand slam while Martina Navratilova was actively playing (a feat Navratilova could never accomplish). Martina Navratlova has never been very cordial to Steffi Graf at any point during and after Graf's career and she's taking it into their retirement.

20 years has passed since Monica Seles was stabbed and you would have thought it was Martina Navratilova who had been stabbed by the way she talks. If Monica is over it, why can't Martina go forward? I'll tell you why. The green-eyed monster has once again reared its ugly head.

Martina Navratilova. Shut up.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/05/navratilova-seles-would-have-won-most-slams/47293/

Martina Navratilova tells espnW that had former No. 1 Monica Seles not been stabbed in April 1993 by Guenther Parche, a crazed Steffi Graf fan, she may have become the best player ever. After Seles returned to the tour in August 1995 she only won one more major, the 1996 Australian Open, and ended her career with nine major titles.

“She would have won so much more,” said Navratilova, who owns 18 Grand Slam singles titles. “We’d be talking about Monica with the most Grand Slam titles [ahead of] Margaret Court (who has 24) or Steffi Graf. Steffi had 22 but she didn’t have anyone to play against. This guy changed the course of tennis history, no doubt about that.”

Seles’ close friend and former rival Mary Joe Fernandez added:

“People forget if you look at [Seles’] record, she has nine Grand Slams, which is an amazing career. But she would have had double that at least. . . . She took our game to another level.”

Former top player Pam Shriver added that the incident must have been a huge burden for Graf to carry. But Navratilova isn’t so sure.

“I’m sure it shook [Graf] up, but she won a lot more than she would have otherwise,” Navratilova said. “If it affected her that deeply, she would have forged a stronger bond with Monica instead of ignoring her. It was nice initially [for Graf to see Seles in the hospital], but after that?”

Graf has claimed in the past that Seles refused to take her phone calls after the hospital visit.

 

[hawk eye]

With this, Martina stabs a knife in Steffi's back.

“I’m sure it shook [Graf] up, but she won a lot more than she would have otherwise,” Navratilova said. “If it affected her that deeply, she would have forged a stronger bond with Monica instead of ignoring her. It was nice initially [for Graf to see Seles in the hospital], but after that?”

 

[AngieB]

Many times during her career, I always defended Martina Navratilova because I felt people negatively judged her because she defected from Eastern Europe and revealed her sexuality at a time when women weren't as open. Never again.

Given Martina's evolution into bashing other tennis Hall of Fame players because of her innate competitive jealousy of wanting to be considered GOAT is inexcusable. It reveals a negative aspect of her personality that can no longer be ignored.

Martina Navratilova has to be one of the most rancerous Hall of Fame WTA players in history. Her recent comments in regards to Graf-Seles are disgraceful to the sport.

I am glad the WTA has retired Hall of Fame pros like Graf-Seles who would not stoop to such demagoguery.

AngieB

 

[kiki]

Seles would have kept on winning...till Martina Hingis restored german language supremacy
Graf would have found a way to get close as she was extremely competitive and very talentefdon' t blame on her for Parsche

 

[sportlerin]

Many times during her career, I always defended Martina Navratilova because I felt people negatively judged her because she defected from Eastern Europe and revealed her sexuality at a time when women weren't as open. Never again.

Given Martina's evolution into bashing other tennis Hall of Fame players because of her innate competitive jealousy of wanting to be considered GOAT is inexcusable. It reveals a negative aspect of her personality that can no longer be ignored.

AngieB

I find myself agreeing with you as of late. Frankly I am baffled by many of these former pros; they seem to display a bitterness towards many of the current players.

This comment by Navratilova in particular is really reprehensible: "“If it affected her (Graf) that deeply, she would have forged a stronger bond with Monica instead of ignoring her. "

On a recent broadcast I recall Navratilova calling a Kvitova match. Her co-broadcaster commented on the fact that Petra and Martina hail from the same country and surely Petra admires Martina. Innocent stuff, but Navratilova saw fit to respond by complaining that she has reached out to Kvitova in a mentoring way, but Kvitova hasn't been as receptive as she expected her to.

Apparently, maybe Petra has good reason to avoid her. Maybe Petra has been receptive but it's not good enough for the self-important ego of Navratilova. Either way, Navratilova came off sounding peeved and completely self-absorbed.

 

[robow7]

I am sure there are many conversations between players that we the public are not privy to and so it would not be unusual for any individual to form and voice an opinion that we might not understand without knowing the whole story.

 

[jrepac]

With this, Martina stabs a knife in Steffi's back.

Martina is entitled to her opinion re: Seles would've won the most slams (which many have voiced) but the comment about steffi forming a bond with Seles is pretty pointed and petty. What would she really know about this anyhow? But, it is also known that Steffi did nothing to endear herself to her fellow players; she was highly isolated and stand-offish. Perhaps due to her father isolating her or her german heritage, who knows, but I don't think she was very well liked. respected, yes.

 

[atatu]

I was kinda turned off the way Martina turned the whole Jason Collins thing into a way of calling attention to herself again. She tweeted several times, stuff about hey this great, of course, I did it a long time ago. One congratulatory tweet to Jason would have been enough.

 

[jrs]

I am glad Martina Navratilova is speaking her mind. That's the way it should be. The woman was great Tennis player as far as I know - Don't know much else about her. Could be a moron off the tennis court - who knows!

It's better than listening to the rehearsed politically correct patterns (lol - though I'd throw that in there) of pro athletes today.

 

[scootad.]

I love the fact that in this age of political correctness and p*ssyfooting around issues, Navratilova continues to say exactly what she thinks.

It doesn't hurt that I happen to agree with her about this particular issue.

 

[Dear Djordje]

Someone remind Navratilova about Seles' grunting.

 

[AngieB]

Martina is entitled to her opinion re: Seles would've won the most slams (which many have voiced) but the comment about steffi forming a bond with Seles is pretty pointed and petty. What would she really know about this anyhow? But, it is also known that Steffi did nothing to endear herself to her fellow players; she was highly isolated and stand-offish. Perhaps due to her father isolating her or her german heritage, who knows, but I don't think she was very well liked. respected, yes.

In Arthur Ashe's last book, "Days of Grace", it spotlighted the differences between how players interact with one another in the ATP vs WTA. ATP players more often socialized with one another outside of tennis, but WTA players rarely did. Arthur revealed discussion he had with Steffi Graf who revealed how difficult it was to be friends with other WTA players and how she found it much easier to befriend ATP players.

Point being, Steffi Graf didn't set the tone for stand-off interpersonal relationships within the WTA, she inherited it from Martina Navratilova herself. And given that at the 1988 Wimbledon Championships (the year Steffi Graf won her Golden Slam), Navratilova was openly complaining to other WTA players in the locker room about someone needing to stop Graf. Its just more evidence of the incidious behavior Navratilova attempts to project onto Graf. Martina definitely set the tone.

As it relates to Navratilova's opinion of the relationship of Steffi Graf and Monica Seles, don't you think that relationship would be best defined by Graf and Seles themselves? Are we as casual fans, observers of the sport going to rely on Martina Navratilova's perception of other players to define them within the sport?

AngieB

 

[AngieB]

Someone remind Navratilova about Seles' grunting.

Now, that was a grand slam.

AngieB

 

[RF20Lennon]

To an extent Martina is right. Imagine Nadal being stabbed in early 2006 or Djokovic stabbed in 2011. It made a huge impact but I think Martina could have been less bashing.

 

[jrs]

Does Martina N. have any personal issues with Steffi Graf? I don't think there were any rivalries between them - since Martina N. was before Graf right?

I would have thought Martina was past her prime when Graf started going to the top of women's tennis.

 

[AngieB]

Graf could've done a whole lot more to ease that burden. I think when Monica was away for those 2 years, Graf should've donated some trophies to Monica. She would've still have the check and her place in the record book, but simple gestures of humanity and sportsmanship would've won many people over, including Monica.

I've read it all now. I guess the sport of tennis should have halted until Seles recovered and restarted once she decided to return to tennis? Life doesn't work that way.

And while you mention it, I don't feel as though Steffi Graf should have shouldered any particular burden in this instance because she had absolutely no control over the circumstances that lead to Seles' stabbing. It wouldn't matter what Steffi Graf had done or said post-stabbing, because the insanely competitive and jealous Martina Navratilova's of the world are never going to think it was enough to rectify the situation.

On February 15, 1961, an airplane crash killed the entire United States Figure Skating team on its way to the 1961 World Championships in Prague, Czechoslovakia. It was a devastating loss to US figure skating and to many families. However, I don't recall anyone saying that the skaters who won medals in the following years didn't deserve or wouldn't have won those medals, or even that they should have "gave the medals" to the figure skaters posthumously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabena_Flight_548

Suffice to say, there have been more tragic circumstances in the world of sports than what happened to Monica Seles, but Figure Skating seemed to deal have with dealt with it more rationally than what the sport of Tennis has, or seems to be doing.

AngieB

 

[AngieB]

Does Martina N. have any personal issues with Steffi Graf? I don't think there were any rivalries between them - since Martina N. was before Graf right?

I would have thought Martina was past her prime when Graf started going to the top of women's tennis.

Steffi Graf displaced Martina Navratilova from as the #1 tennis player on August 17, 1987. She's been crying about Steffi Graf ever since.

AngieB

 

[AngieB]

To an extent Martina is right. Imagine Nadal being stabbed in early 2006 or Djokovic stabbed in 2011. It made a huge impact but I think Martina could have been less bashing.

There is no doubt that the stabbing had an immediate impact on the sport, but here we are, 20 years later, wallowing in some caddy mess that Martina Navratilova has once again created. Ad nauseum.

Because oddly enough, because in Navratilova's world, its "all about her", what she probably thinks and is not publicly saying is that the stabbing of Monica Seles actually caused her to lose some GOAT stature to Steffi Graf. I feel that's what Navratilova is really projecting here.

AngieB

 

[sportlerin]

Point being, Steffi Graf didn't set the tone for stand-off interpersonal relationships within the WTA, she inherited it from Martina Navratilova herself. And given that at the 1988 Wimbledon Championships (the year Steffi Graf won her Golden Slam), Navratilova was openly complaining to other WTA players in the locker room about someone needing to stop Graf. Its just more evidence of the incidious behavior Navratilova attempts to project onto Graf. Martina definitely set the tone.

AngieB

Well said. Similar to the way Navratilova projected stand-offish behavior onto Kvitova.

 

[Relinquis]

martina would fit in at TTW forums... especially the general pro and former pro discussion sections

 

[suwanee4712]

Martina has ALWAYS been given to hyperbole. She overstates/complains about just about everything. There is much to admire about her but I've learned over the years to take what she says with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, Graf may be a different and warm person to the few she cares about, but to the tennis world she was very cold. This included the players, tour officials, tournament officials, and the media. Her father passed on to her his paranoia of everyone. His words and her actions insulted many WTA officials that bent over backwards to please her. They often had to beg her to do things to help promote the tour. She wasn't big on commitment, especially where doubles partners are concerned. There's probably more contemporaries than just Martina that don't give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she felt she needed to be this way to survive in that world.

 

[70後]

Tearing down others is a sure admittance one can't rise to their level. This is something the Navratilova/Evert/Pam bunch have been doing to Graf through the media. Evert? Everytime she talks, she betrays her ignorance on the current womens tour. Pam? She would be nothing without Navratilova. She is like the lap dog who hung on the coattails of the bully in the days when they were beating up the 80's doubles field of usually 3rd or 4th rate players who couldn't make it in singles, because Martina wanted target practice for her net game. Pam no doubt always considered herself No.1 after Evert/Martina, but along came Graf and totally upset the pecking order besides dealing out several embarrassing losses to Pam. But I'm most sorry for Navratilova. She keeps revealing herself as lonely, bitter, narcissistic, desperate, insecure and constantly afraid her records would be overtaken by the next person - who happens to be Serena. Graf had sense, her time was past, she stepped down gracefully and didn't keep trying to hog the limelight, as a result she's retained her dignity.

 

[bluetrain4]

She thinks Seles would have the Slam record over Court?:shock: Wow!

Look, I was a big Seles fan. I think she would have certainly won more Slams, maybe many more - but even 8 more (which indeed many more) only gets her to 17. But, I don't think the record was in her sights. She would legitimately beat Graf (except on grass) and I suspect that she would still win over Graf sometimes (though not all the time) during the period when she was gone (93 FO - 95 USO), and possibly do better against Graf from 96-97 or 98, the immediate years after her return, since there would have been no comeback, no loss of momentum, etc. But, she wasn't really ever dominating Graf. And, she faced other problems, and she would experience decline like anyone else. I think with an uninterrupted career, she would have won anywhere between 12 and 18 Slams (I know, a big range, but a lot of factors at play), but it's all speculation, obviously.

 

[70後]

btw, who was it who led that anti Seles grunting campaign at 1992 Wimbledon? Nearly everybody was in on it of course, people like the Maleevas, Novotna, etc who had all taken some huge beatings from Monica. Not Graf though. I recall she stayed out of it though the reporters kept trying to bait her in interviews. The biggest anti Seles squawker in those days when Seles looked unbeatable at the height of her power after 1992 French happened to be Martina. Seems it wasn't Parche who was the first to stab Monica in the back.

 

[70後]

In Arthur Ashe's last book, "Days of Grace", it spotlighted the differences between how players interact with one another in the ATP vs WTA. ATP players more often socialized with one another outside of tennis, but WTA players rarely did. Arthur revealed discussion he had with Steffi Graf who revealed how difficult it was to be friends with other WTA players and how she found it much easier to befriend ATP players.

Point being, Steffi Graf didn't set the tone for stand-off interpersonal relationships within the WTA, she inherited it from Martina Navratilova herself. And given that at the 1988 Wimbledon Championships (the year Steffi Graf won her Golden Slam), Navratilova was openly complaining to other WTA players in the locker room about someone needing to stop Graf. Its just more evidence of the incidious behavior Navratilova attempts to project onto Graf. Martina definitely set the tone.

As it relates to Navratilova's opinion of the relationship of Steffi Graf and Monica Seles, don't you think that relationship would be best defined by Graf and Seles themselves? Are we as casual fans, observers of the sport going to rely on Martina Navratilova's perception of other players to define them within the sport?

AngieB

It was actually open discussion in those days amongst the Evert/Martina/Pam clique. They didn't like Graf coming along and upsetting their monopoly and dominance. One comment by Evert in the later years says much about the Evert/Martina/Pam clique : "We kinda let Steffi slip through the cracks." Disgraceful. To them, Seles is just a knife to stab at Graf.

People mature at different pace in different ways, reflecting their upbringing, social intelligence and group. Take Fed, for example, he stared out a total dweeb, but he met Mirka, and as his tennis success grew, he moved up the ladder and into new circles. Look at the people in or around his box over the years, seems to be fashion editors, banking types, .... he became this smooth talking, suave, sophisticated fellow. Pete on the other hand, started out and still is, dumb as a brick. Point is, until she was in her 20's Graf knew nothing but tennis, she was just so shy and awkward in her interviews. Actually, in the latter years of her career she met young upcoming players just like that and much much worse. She said : "You will be sorry, if you try to talk to them after a match." Between Monica and Steffi, I always wished they had used the stabbing incident to bond, but if one or both didn't handle the situation well, maybe they just didn't know how to. On a tennis court, they were goat, off court, they were babes.

 

[bluetrain4]

If that is the case then why do Martina and Chris Evert have respect for each other. After all, they were always in each other's way. Imagine how many slams they each could've won if they didn't play in the same era. Can you say 24+ slams?

I doubt it's all about competitive jealousies. They were already near the end of their career when the upstart Graf took over.

The point here is not about Martina or Evert putting Graf down, what they're doing is providing support for Monica because Monica deserves her place among the greatest. Monica is often ranked well below others because she only has 9 Grand Slams, which is undeserving because the stabbing incident robbed her of opportunities to win so many more.

I've said this before, and I say it as a HUGE Seles fan. It's horrible that she was stabbed. But, you can't give a player credit for something they did not do. "Greatest" is based on achievement, not potential achievement. If that were the case, shouldn't a number of players be elevated in terms of how great they were. Tracy Austin's injuries deprived her of many opportunities. Someone mentioned Mo Connolly, whose tennis career ended at 19 due to a horseback riding incident, certainly would have many more Slams. Yes, I know that an on-court stabbing is such a different sort of event that people may think of differently than a everyday injury or recurring physical condition (even a serious one like Austin's), which isn't exactly rare in tennis. But, my point remains the same. Can we really just elevate Seles above other people simply because of "missed opportunities?" She didn't win those phantom Slams. Yes, she probably could have, but she didn't (and there's no telling how many more she would win).

Despite all of this, she's still considered a tennis "great" and people do acknowledge when they talk about her that she easily could have been greater. But, IMO, we can't just include her among the very upper tier simply because of what might have been.

 

[70後]

If that is the case then why do Martina and Chris Evert have respect for each other. After all, they were always in each other's way. Imagine how many slams they each could've won if they didn't play in the same era. Can you say 24+ slams?

I doubt it's all about competitive jealousies. They were already near the end of their career when the upstart Graf took over.

The point here is not about Martina or Evert putting Graf down, what they're doing is providing support for Monica because Monica deserves her place among the greatest. Monica is often ranked well below others because she only has 9 Grand Slams, which is undeserving because the stabbing incident robbed her of opportunities to win so many more.

I fully agree. At least four slams in that period would have been won by Monica, imo, that is fair. But what if Graf had also prematurely retired after the stabbing out of shock? What would have happened to the WTA? Would the womens game have recovered after losing its two biggest superstars?

To me the main question mark is what would have happened after 1996, if the stabbing didn't happen. A finesse type of player like Hingis came along and with a ton of variety owned a Monica who grew into a tall slow body which negated her early advantage of quickness when she was short and skinny. (She would have fared much worse after 1996 had she not done her best to improve other areas in her game including her serving and her volleys.) We have Bartoli who is somewhat similar in style to Monica today, with her flat two fisted power off both sides, she is a bad matchup for Goerges' windmill forehand, who is a bad match up for Wozniacki who has no forehand. And the bad match up for Bartoli is also another finesse type which is Radwanska..... don't forget Monica had huge strengths in her game but also a big weakness. Nobody is greater, just greater match up advantage.

 

[70後]

I liked Monica as a person more (than Graf) in the 90's. She was unfailingly cheerful and most important was a good sport. She was also quite forthright about her shortcomings in her game too (unlike Graf). She knew there were several areas to improve. I can see her winning at least one Wimbledon out of what she was denied, because the only person who could beat her there would have been Graf. But she got treated terrible as she shot to the top. Everybody seemed to be against her that year. As a fellow top player, imo, Graf should have stood by her to support her in 1992, but didn't. Indeed, I even remember comments made by Ivanisevic, completely uncalled for, trying to drag her into the whole Yugoslav civil war situation, just because she was Serbian. No respect for Goran after that. And then the whole anti Seles chorus over the grunting.

 

[bluetrain4]

I liked Monica as a person more in the 90's. She was unfailingly cheerful and most important was a good sport. She was also quite forthright about her shortcomings in her game too. She knew there were several areas to improve. I can see her winning at least one Wimbledon out of what she was denied, because the only person who could beat her there would have been Graf. But she got treated terrible as she shot to the top. Everybody seemed to be against her that year. As a fellow top player, imo, Graf should have stood by her to support her in 1992, but didn't. Indeed, I even remember comments made by Ivanisevic, completely uncalled for, trying to drag her into the whole Yugoslav civil war situation, just because she was Serbian. No respect for Goran after that. And then the whole anti Seles chorus over the grunting.

Actually, while I agree she maybe could have sneaked out a Wimbledon win with the right draw, and somehow avoiding Graf, she was vulnerable on grass to players besides Graf. Other than her final, she was upset multiple times and never even made another SF (she did have a bunch of QFs). Granted, the three years she missed (93-95) would have been the prime of her career, and 1994, for example, she would have had an excellent chance with Graf losing to McNeil in the first round. All I'm saying is that even with Graf out of the picture, it was no certainty that she'd win Wimbledon, though obviously she'd have a much better chance. So, yeah, I think she pulls one out, but I just don't think it's as much as a given as you do.

 

[pal]

Martina has ALWAYS been given to hyperbole. She overstates/complains about just about everything. There is much to admire about her but I've learned over the years to take what she says with a grain of salt.

On the other hand, Graf may be a different and warm person to the few she cares about, but to the tennis world she was very cold. This included the players, tour officials, tournament officials, and the media. Her father passed on to her his paranoia of everyone. His words and her actions insulted many WTA officials that bent over backwards to please her. They often had to beg her to do things to help promote the tour. She wasn't big on commitment, especially where doubles partners are concerned. There's probably more contemporaries than just Martina that don't give her the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps she felt she needed to be this way to survive in that world.

This is so untrue, She was well loved by many tour and tournament officials and workers, and she was even loved by many tennis reporters as well, except the ones under the IMG influence.

 

[boredone3456]

This is where I find flaw with that logic here. You cannot compare a stabbing incident to an injury or any other self-inflicted incident. Monica has no control over what happened to her.

You cannot give a player credit for what they did not do but you cannot ignore the fact that they were robbed either! So it works both ways.

True..but you cannot just say she would have won the most slams ever either. You have no idea what would have happened. I could say the same about Maureen Connolly who suffered a real accident that ruined her career after winning 9 slams and the calender year grand slam. It was a horrible tragedy of epic proportions but it is not logical to make large extrapolations based on her being robbed. Was she arguably robbed of more majors yes...but you have no way of saying how many more and while I do not either...that does not give one carte Blanche to just make up any number they want to.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Martina is jealous of Graf as most now consider Graf the female GOAT and not her. The tension between the two has been evident for quite awhile. It is easy for her to be gracious to Monica since Monica came at the end of her career when her glory days were long over, nobody considers Monica a GOAT candidate now, and since with Monica's tragic stabbing she knew in all likelihood she would never even play her again (other than cheesy exos at that point). All that said Martina was no Seles friend or backer at the time they were on the together, and in fact was the main cause of the Seles grunt controversy at Wimbledon 92, so it is quite hypocritical of her to suddenly jump so strongly on the bandwagon.

Martina talking about having nobody to play is especialy humourous coming from her. The peak of her dominance in 82-84 came at perhaps the all time low point of the womens game. Mandlikova was in a big slump, and fell out of the top 5 most of that period (and believe me given the womens field at the time, for someone of her talent, this was an amazing achievement in the worst kind of way). Austin was finished although she played out parts of 82 and 83 as a shell of herself. Basically the womens field was Martina and nothing, apart from a slumping Evert who was playing some of her worst ever tennis these years, apart from the second half of 84 when she started to get herself together again. Otherwise Martina's biggest rivals were overhyped Jaeger and Shriver, then after that people like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, young Garrison, Rinaldi, Potter, Durie, Bunge. 1983 has to even today still go down as the most abysmal year of womens tennis ever. If you want to torture someone in the death chamber just show them the 4 slam finals that year for women (and throw in the semis for extra punishment). Talk about a total sh1tfest! At the 83 U.S Open Martina even left a press conference in tears since she was so frusterated all the press wanted to talk about was how horrible the womens game was, and not her dominance that year. Considering Martina was 13-0 vs Evert during a stretch, she literally had no chance of losing any event, she had to break a leg or totally choke and blow a match to not win one. Yet even in such an incredibly easy environment, easier than the easiest days of the Graf post Seles stabbing era, she still couldnt win the Grand Slam.

No surprise she would want anyone to have more slams than Graf and Court. It must irk her that the two people who have the most slams, and more slams than her, are two people she personally cannot stand. Oh well suck it up princess. Nobody even talks much about Court anymore, yet she had to throw a bit of dirt on her for good measure.

 

[NadalAgassi]

The point here is not about Martina or Evert putting Graf down, what they're doing is providing support for Monica because Monica deserves her place among the greatest. Monica is often ranked well below others because she only has 9 Grand Slams, which is undeserving because the stabbing incident robbed her of opportunities to win so many more.

Even giving Seles some generous consideration for the stabbing, the highest she could ever be realistically ranked is probably 9th, only one spot higher from her current consensus place of 10th. Lets say we give Seles 15 slams if she werent stabbed (anything more is far too wild speculation based to have any merit). This would still have her clearly below 6-8 women.

Graf- 22 slams, obviously no guarantee even without the stabbing Seles would have as many slams as Graf. Graf also won the Grand Slam, something Seles was by no means certain to achieve (Graf had also already done it by the same age Seles was stabbed). Graf had also won multiple slams at every venue even before the stabbing, again something Seles was not certain to achieve. Graf in her best years posted marks of losing only about 2 matches, again something Seles was not certain to ever manage. No case here.

Navratilova- 18 slams, including record 9 Wimbledons, and losing about 2 matches a year in best years. Strongest 5 year stretch in modern times. No case.

Evert- 18 slams, all kinds of consistency and longevity records, and would have about 25 slams if she didnt peak in the mid to late 70s period when many werent playing not only the Australian but the French due to King's WTT events. Records on both clay and grass that even without the stabbing Seles had no hope of approaching, and a record 6 U.S Opens which today is the biggest hard court event (they werent all on hards but even had it been every year she would likely have 5 minimum). No case.

Court- 24 slams. No case.

Wills Moody- 19 slams, including 15 combined Wimbys and U.S Opens. No case.

Serena- 15 slams but still going strong, and dominating tennis at age 31, something no women in modern times has ever done. Amazing doubles career too, and regular winner on all surfaces (only 1 French but tons of Premier titles, a whole other planet from Seles's grass record, or anything Seles was certain to achieve on grass). No case realy.

Lenglen- only 12 slams, but lost only 1 match in 6 years. I guess you could make a case for Seles factoring in the stabbing but it probably falls short.

Connolly- the Seles story of another era. Except at her peak before the tragic accident of a different sort at almost the same age, she was WAY more dominant than Seles at her peak had been. Hard to make any case for Seles her given the parallel and that Connolly just outperformed in the same window.

King- the only one currently rated over Seles you could make a valid case for due to the stabbing. Then again King focused mainly only on Wimbledon and the U.S Open and won 10 combined slams there of her 12 total. Could have won alot more in Australia if she had prioritized it. Also gave alot of herself to start the womens tour, including sacrificing her own career, and did more for womens tennis on a whole than anyone in history.



Of course it is possible Seles would have won 18+ slams if she had not been stabbed, and had a case even to be over some of these, but it is goes far beyond the "safe to assume" area, and even giving Monica a very generous "safe to assume" boffer of consideration for her achievements it doesnt move her up much, if any. How she is rated these days by people is quite fair.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Point being, Steffi Graf didn't set the tone for stand-off interpersonal relationships within the WTA, she inherited it from Martina Navratilova herself. And given that at the 1988 Wimbledon Championships (the year Steffi Graf won her Golden Slam), Navratilova was openly complaining to other WTA players in the locker room about someone needing to stop Graf. Its just more evidence of the incidious behavior Navratilova attempts to project onto Graf. Martina definitely set the tone.

Well said.

Martina has a long history of bitter, divisive comments and/or behavior toward players who are superior to her (Graf, obviously), or threatened to surpsass her (Serena). She is a hollow individual who lives and dies by her career (which--contrary to her early, pre-Graf delusions--did not make her the GOAT), and professional insecurities. Regarding that "stop Graf" comment, Davenport and Hingis once said something very similar about the Williams sisters, and it is a central indicator of a of jealousy and a massive inferiority complex.

As it relates to Navratilova's opinion of the relationship of Steffi Graf and Monica Seles, don't you think that relationship would be best defined by Graf and Seles themselves? Are we as casual fans, observers of the sport going to rely on Martina Navratilova's perception of other players to define them within the sport?

No one would rely on Martina's agenda-driven comments--thankfully. Graf was never a great social butterfly, but it had nothing to do with any of the would-be character assassination offered by the bitter Martina Navratilova.

 

[NadalAgassi]

She thinks Seles would have the Slam record over Court?:shock: Wow!

Look, I was a big Seles fan. I think she would have certainly won more Slams, maybe many more - but even 8 more (which indeed many more) only gets her to 17. But, I don't think the record was in her sights. She would legitimately beat Graf (except on grass) and I suspect that she would still win over Graf sometimes (though not all the time) during the period when she was gone (93 FO - 95 USO), and possibly do better against Graf from 96-97 or 98, the immediate years after her return, since there would have been no comeback, no loss of momentum, etc. But, she wasn't really ever dominating Graf. And, she faced other problems, and she would experience decline like anyone else. I think with an uninterrupted career, she would have won anywhere between 12 and 18 Slams (I know, a big range, but a lot of factors at play), but it's all speculation, obviously.

Martina said 3 years ago Nadal was CERTAIN to win atleast 2 slams every year for the then next 5 years (which would be until and including 2015 atleast) and smash Federers slam record and claim undisputed GOAT status. That alone gives an idea how good she is with predictions and forecasts, and how accurate her Seles aftermath one probably is, LOL! Even if Nadal does break Federers slam record her prediction in how it would be done, and declared as if it was a certainty (her words were something like, ever Roger knows it, it is going to happen for sure) has already been an epic fail.

THUNDERVOLLEY is right that she is a hollow individual. Still a truly great player and tennis champion, one of the best of all time, but her whole self worth revolves around having to be considered the GOAT (which she no longer was by 1995 or 1996, if she ever was, but must continue to delude herself otherwise to mantain her sanity it seems). That is why she has so many biting remarks and attempts to downgrade anyone who is a threat to her status or in realtiy has surpassed her in most peoples eyes (Graf, Serena these days even, somewhat Court), while only being overly generous to the what if cases like Seles, and Serena before she got her sh1t back together (she seemed to love saying Serena could have been the greatest but wasted it away, but now that Serena is making a really resurge to in fact be the greatest it is pot shot after pot shot; while as I mentioned she was no Seles fan pre stabbing, but turns into her biggest chearleader now with Seles no potential threat to her status, and a sentimental victim). She should be happy and proud of all that she achieved, defecting from her country in a time that was unheard of, becoming one of the all time greatest, and arguably at one time the greatest, and even today still having a certain base of people (just now a minority) who consider her the greatest, and all the money, enjoyment, praise, life changing experiences, success, and admiration from the World she got out of tennis, but no it is bitter bitter if anyone dares think I am not THE GOAT, which only turns people against her if anything.


Anyway on no planet would Seles have won 25 slams. The most insanely generous prediction even an uber of hers should make is 20. Even if she continued averaged 2 slams a year until the end of 1998 (she wouldnt have) that would only take her to 19-21 slams depending if she won 1 or 2 more after 1998 or not. 20 slams would have made her a GOAT candidate mind you, well might of as that would have required atleast 3 Wimbledons probably which would be a huge stretch for her, but it is a whole what if, and alot less likely than likely probably.

 

[Arafel]

Martina talking about having nobody to play is especialy humourous coming from her. The peak of her dominance in 82-84 came at perhaps the all time low point of the womens game. Mandlikova was in a big slump, and fell out of the top 5 most of that period (and believe me given the womens field at the time, for someone of her talent, this was an amazing achievement in the worst kind of way). Austin was finished although she played out parts of 82 and 83 as a shell of herself. Basically the womens field was Martina and nothing, apart from a slumping Evert who was playing some of her worst ever tennis these years, apart from the second half of 84 when she started to get herself together again. Otherwise Martina's biggest rivals were overhyped Jaeger and Shriver, then after that people like Hanika, Kohde Kilsch, young Garrison, Rinaldi, Potter, Durie, Bunge. 1983 has to even today still go down as the most abysmal year of womens tennis ever. If you want to torture someone in the death chamber just show them the 4 slam finals that year for women (and throw in the semis for extra punishment). Talk about a total sh1tfest! At the 83 U.S Open Martina even left a press conference in tears since she was so frusterated all the press wanted to talk about was how horrible the womens game was, and not her dominance that year. Considering Martina was 13-0 vs Evert during a stretch, she literally had no chance of losing any event, she had to break a leg or totally choke and blow a match to not win one. Yet even in such an incredibly easy environment, easier than the easiest days of the Graf post Seles stabbing era, she still couldnt win the Grand Slam.

No surprise she would want anyone to have more slams than Graf and Court. It must irk her that the two people who have the most slams, and more slams than her, are two people she personally cannot stand. Oh well suck it up princess. Nobody even talks much about Court anymore, yet she had to throw a bit of dirt on her for good measure.

There was a lot more going on in 83 than what you suggest. In 82, Martina switched from her wood Bancroft frame to a composite Yonex. She was one of the early adopters of a graphite midsize frame, and much like McEnroe in 84, Martina saw an immediate jump in performance. This was coupled with Martina's new dedication to fitness, which saw her vastly improve her foot speed, and thus her court coverage, something crucial for a natural serve and volleyer like Martina. At the same time, Austin, Evert, and Mandlilokova were still playing with wooden frames, and Chris had yet to embrace the fitness revolution, so she was a little slower. Within a year, Evert had started using the PS85, and started training, and Hana started using the Ultra 2, and the women's game got a lot more interesting again with the three using more modern frames.

As for your comments about Martina on Graf and Court, well, Court is little loved these days, even in her own country, because of her fundamentalism. As for Graf, I don't think Martina resents her; I see more of her feelings being about Monica not having a chance. Think about it: Martina and Chris finished with 18 Slams each, and their careers were virtually concurrent with each other. They played 80 times, with many of those in Slam finals. People were anticipating Seles/Graf as the successor to Navartilova/Evert, and we got two tantalizing glimpses of what it might have been like with the 92 French and 93 AO finals.

I think there's also possibly a feeling about what happened to Seles attacker: nothing. He didn't even get jail time, for crying out loud. So he got exactly what he wanted, and didn't pay any penalty. Who did? Monica.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Another interesting thing is many of these same few experts who claim Seles would have won 20 plus slams without the stabbing are the exact same ones who predicted when she came back after the stabbing she was going to win atleast another 10 slams, both around the times of the 95 U.S Open and 96 Australian Open. That prediction was an epic flop, so why should one presume there if Seles was never stabbed prediction would be any different. They cant say nobody could have reasonably expected Seles to ever be the same or win much after the stabbing, when THEY themselves predicted she would and were insanely wrong.

 

[NadalAgassi]

There was a lot more going on in 83 than what you suggest. In 82, Martina switched from her wood Bancroft frame to a composite Yonex. She was one of the early adopters of a graphite midsize frame, and much like McEnroe in 84, Martina saw an immediate jump in performance. This was coupled with Martina's new dedication to fitness, which saw her vastly improve her foot speed, and thus her court coverage, something crucial for a natural serve and volleyer like Martina. At the same time, Austin, Evert, and Mandlilokova were still playing with wooden frames, and Chris had yet to embrace the fitness revolution, so she was a little slower. Within a year, Evert had started using the PS85, and started training, and Hana started using the Ultra 2, and the women's game got a lot more interesting again with the three using more modern frames.

As for your comments about Martina on Graf and Court, well, Court is little loved these days, even in her own country, because of her fundamentalism. As for Graf, I don't think Martina resents her; I see more of her feelings being about Monica not having a chance. Think about it: Martina and Chris finished with 18 Slams each, and their careers were virtually concurrent with each other. They played 80 times, with many of those in Slam finals. People were anticipating Seles/Graf as the successor to Navartilova/Evert, and we got two tantalizing glimpses of what it might have been like with the 92 French and 93 AO finals.

I think there's also possibly a feeling about what happened to Seles attacker: nothing. He didn't even get jail time, for crying out loud. So he got exactly what he wanted, and didn't pay any penalty. Who did? Monica.

Very valid points on 83. Still whatever the reasons there is no denying 83 and early 84 was a totally crapy time for womens tennis, so Martina best not be talking about her era as if it is some golden nugget, it certainly wasnt. When people talk about the great eras in tennis history nobody will ever talk about 82-86 as a whole (although 85 was very good, and 86 was decent). Chris during her reign from 74-81, especialy mid 70s had way more competition than she did. Graf in the late 80s and early 90s (and yes I know Seles was the one more on top in 91 and 92 than Graf) did as well. In factd the only competition for Martina having tougher competition than Graf would be Graf only facing an old Martina, but Chris from 82-86 was an average of only 2 years younger than Martina of 87-89, and Chris was not the ultra late bloomer Martina is. Martina of 87-89 was still better than Chris of 82-86 on all but clay or rebound ace (which wasnt even a surface until 88 ), and Seles of 90-92 was much better than both. The years after, well we already covered 6 of Grafs prime years, where Martina only had 6, so why bother going even further, but peak Sanchez of 93-96 wasnt even much different to an either slumping (82-early 84) or aging 30 something (late 84-86 ) Evert. Then as far as depth no comparision, the Navratilova era had no depth, players 4-10 ranked almost always sucked in a huge way, mostly made up of third rate and visibly unathletic American and German players 15 year old Graf was already pummeling when she played. Atleast the Graf era had a strong supporting cast after Graf, Seles, Navratilova, Sanchez, with people like Sabatini, Pierce, Novotna, Date, Martinez, Sukova (well she was equally end of Martina era and early Graf era in fairness), young Hingis and Davenport.

I would agree with you on the Seles part of your comments, but not on the Graf part. I am not even a Graf fan but it is plainly obvious following her commentary through the years she was increasingly bitter and jealous towards Graf. At Wimbledon 96 she had to come on BBC to apologize for and clarify some of her comments on Graf, which were not even in anyway related to Monica. In 1988 when Graf was winning everything she still claimed she was the real #1, literally making a fool of herself in the process. At every match she commentated at the 95 U.S Open (a tournament where her booth performance was so bad CBS immediately fired her for) she was very anti Graf and visibly rooting hard for her opponent, similar to how Jo Anne Russel who never liked Martina did likewise for each match Martina played during her NBC stint.

 

[AngieB]

Well said.

Martina has a long history of bitter, divisive comments and/or behavior toward players who are superior to her (Graf, obviously), or threatened to surpsass her (Serena). She is a hollow individual who lives and dies by her career (which--contrary to her early, pre-Graf delusions--did not make her the GOAT), and professional insecurities. Regarding that "stop Graf" comment, Davenport and Hingis once said something very similar about the Williams sisters, and it is a central indicator of a of jealousy and a massive inferiority complex.



No one would rely on Martina's agenda-driven comments--thankfully. Graf was never a great social butterfly, but it had nothing to do with any of the would-be character assassination offered by the bitter Martina Navratilova.

All good points.

I was always under the impression that Steffi Graf was a shy youngster who had to grow-up in a hostile social atmosphere within the WTA. In an effort to protect herself, she stayed away from the other players and media as much as allowed to focus on her game.

When you have sharks like Navratilova lurking in every corner waiting to pounce on their competition in an effort to find any demonstratable advantage, its no wonder why Steffi Graf avoided these sociopaths.

AngieB

 

[NadalAgassi]

So let me ask you something. If Steffi Graf was stabbed in the back and was off the tour for 2 years (and suffered from all the post-traumatic stress and all the things that would be missed from now playing, such the time to recover), would she still have won 22 Slams??????

Of course not, so there you go. The claim and the logic can work both ways.

What is the point you are trying to make. All have conceded Seles could have, and probably would have, won more than 9 slams if she wasnt stabbed. That is far different from handing her unofficial GOAT title just since she was stabbed or putting her on par with Graf, Navratilova, Serena, or even Court and Evert when even at her peak she failed miserably at Wimbledon, never posted close to the most dominant year, and as a fully able bodied women who was by then long removed from the stabbing won 0 slams the last 7 years of her career aged 22-29.

Yes had Graf been stabbed at 19 she probably wouldnt be the GOAT today (although almost certainly would have more than 9 slams overall still). People who would be arguing otherwise if Graf's achievements were no longer GOAT sufficient, would be idiots in that case too. Facts always take precedence over a series of what ifs.

 

[scootad.]

If Steffi Graf was stabbed in the back and was off the tour for 2 years (and suffered from all the post-traumatic stress and all the things that would be missed from now playing, such the time to recover), would she still have won 22 Slams? Of course not, so there you go. The claim and the logic can work both ways.

Exactly. Graf would have likely won 14-16 slams. And Seles would have likely won 13-16 slams. Essentially they would have ended up with similar totals.

 

[Jeff Nuese]

Angie..I couldn't agree with you more So self absorbed...When she commentates I turn the volume down. Not only does she constantly take all topics during matches back to herself and what she would be doing differently ie better..its shameful..the opposite of Justin Gimestob whos love and passion for the game couldn't be more obvious and refreshing.

 

[NadalAgassi]

There are hundreds of female professional players who have played against both Graf and Seles numerous times too, who dont have the obvious agenda and the history of extreme bias and agenda pushing (and indirect shameless self GOAT promoting) that Navratilova have. So with that said unless the majority of those can be found to agree with Martina's comebacks, I have no problem dismissing them and laughing at them.

Martina saying Seles would have won more than 24 slams has no weight, for the simple fact (along with her obvious enormous bias, proven history of both direct and indirect agenda pushing which she has received countless firings, media attacks and heavy criticsm for, and the sheer insanity of that prediction when she managed only 1 slam playing almost all her 20s) she also predicted Seles would win atleast 10 more majors when she first came back, and she only won 1. She didnt say oh if she wasnt stabbed she would win another 10 more majors, she cant possibly be expected to ever return and dominate again, she said at the time of the 95 U.S Open and again in early 96 that Seles would win atleast 10 more majors and dominate again, period. She also stated emphatically during Wimbledon 96, Hingis would never pass either Graf or Seles and would not be able to be ranked higher than 3rd ever unless no up and comers had emerged by the time both were retired. So her credability in any Seles based predictions has already been flushed down the toilet. Her word on the matter should be taken about as seriously as say Betsy Nagelsen, LOL!

 

[bluetrain4]

While I don't agree with her on this topic and she can seem unnecessarily bitter towards Graf, I do generally like Martina. She has her bad moments, but I like her commentary overall. She was great on NPR this week talking about the Jason Collins story. As with anyone, she has her good points and her bad.

 

[NadalAgassi]

She has more bad points than good, which is why she is relegated to a third rate side commentary network, since that is the only one who would hire her. All the major networks want nothing to do with her. as most have already tried hiring her and firing her almost as fast. Even her old foe Chrissie, another dreadful commentator, is still able to get jobs at places like ESPN and NBC on demand.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Your criticism of Martina's "agenda" is based on personal opinions.

Of course there's 100s of women players that played against Steffi and Monica. But they don't have the track record or experience that Martina or Chris Evert or any other great champions have.

It's like trying to ask an ATP rank 84th player on who is tougher to play, Nadal or Federer.

Does that player's judgement carry more weight than say a Novak Djokovic or Andy Murray. Of course not.

Considering Martina is about 15 years older than both Graf and Seles, and never played either at their mutual (both her and theirs at once) best, and that she is now a huge personal friend of Seles who has been fired, forced to apologize on BBC, and media drilled for her anti Graf (and anti many other players, Williams, etc...) players, yes I would comfortably say there are hundreds of players more qualified to comment on Graf and Seles than her. Anyone who is of their same age group who played both when they were at their mutual best for starters.

I already posted examples of Martinas various Monica based predictions, and the epic fail they were, and if you dont believe me I will be happy to mail you tapes where she actually said and predicted those absurd things. Pretty much a homeless person could have done better than those, so no to most people she doesnt have any credablity when it comes to Seles predictions, as much as you badly want her to. As you can tell by most of the posts in this thread, most agree with me, and simply laugh off Martina as an idiot, when she makes yet another absurd statement regarding a player she is either fond of or not fond of (in this case Seles winning more than 24 slams which 99.999% of people think is ROTFL ridiculous).

 

[Phoenix1983]

She is a hollow individual who lives and dies by her career (which--contrary to her early, pre-Graf delusions--did not make her the GOAT),

Navratilova was the GOAT until Graf surpassed her.

 

[AngieB]

I already posted examples of Martinas various Monica based predictions, and the epic fail they were, and if you dont believe me I will be happy to mail you tapes where she actually said and predicted those absurd things. Pretty much a homeless person could have done better than those, so no to most people she doesnt have any credablity when it comes to Seles predictions, as much as you badly want her to. As you can tell by most of the posts in this thread, most agree with me, and simply laugh off Martina as an idiot, when she makes yet another absurd statement regarding a player she is either fond of or not fond of (in this case Seles winning more than 24 slams which 99.999% of people think is ROTFL ridiculous).

Do you remember that episode on Saturday Night Live when Chris Evert hosted and they did the "Chris-Martina skit"?

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1289232115417#!/video/video.php?v=1289232115417

Even back then, everyone got how insanely competitive Navratilova was and even SNL highlighted her ridiculousness.

AngieB

 

[Phoenix1983]

So let me ask you something. If Steffi Graf was stabbed in the back and was off the tour for 2 years (and suffered from all the post-traumatic stress and all the things that would be missed from now playing, such the time to recover), would she still have won 22 Slams??????

Who knows? That's the thing about hypotheticals, we don't know what would have happened.

Irrespective of whether you consider the Seles case to be "unique" or "a lunatic's act that robbed her of more titles", we have to base our ranking of greats on what actually happened.

I fundamentally disagree with people who, because they are appalled at the Seles case, think it's OK to say she would have been greater if it hadn't happened, but don't concede that Maureen Connolly would also have been greater if her horse riding accident hadn't happened. And of course Connolly died of cancer aged mid-30s so her life is more tragic than Seles' by any measure.

 

[AngieB]

Navratilova was the GOAT until Graf surpassed her.

Martina Navratilova is the best singles, doubles and mixed doubles women's player of all-time.

Martina is not the best women's singles player of all-time. GOAT discussions historically regard players singles record. I don't make the rules.

AngieB