Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by AngieB, May 2, 2013.
yes, specially the French crown when she played Hingis in the finals...
On the day of the stabbing...
Graf 11 majors (3 Australian, 2 French, 4 Wimbledons, 2 US), Seles 8 (3 Australian, 3 French, 0 Wimbledon, 2 US)
Graf had won 6 of their 10 matches.
That's reality, rather than conveniently choosing 'the prior three years'.
Martina used to criticize Monica for her grunting and at Wimbledon even said she sounds like "a stuck pig."
Martina is right though, Graf really mishandled the whole situation and showed little class. Who knows, maybe she secretly enjoyed that it happened, it sure helped her own career and to overcome Monica who was owning her.
Never forget when Graf beat Monica at that US Open final and she over celebrated and really rubbed it on on Monica, she even ran over and hugged her mom BEFORE shaking hands with Monica at the net. Talk about low class.
Also, you get the sense the whole thing really screwed up Monica's personal life too, she's so private and a recluse now, she used to be very public and outgoing. Parche should burn in hell for that insane crime which was attempted murder.
Steffi Graf is the greatest female player in grand slam history on combined surfaces (grass, clay and hardcourt). Its really difficult for me to believe that Monica would have won more grand slam events than Margaret Court when she couldn't win Wimbledon. Monica's two fisted forehand and backhand, along with her limited movement were huge impediments for her on grass.
Had Monica not been stabbed, she would have won more grand slam singles events. How many? Not Court-like numbers for sure, more like Serena Williams probably.
If we cannot understand their opinion, they should not voice it. Simple as that. Commentating 101.
"That's reality, rather than conveniently choosing the prior three years."
Huh? There's the little matter of Graf being 3 1/2 years older than Seles. The convenience of the prior three years is provided by seles winning her first major in Paris 1990. Oh, I don't know. Do you think when they were both playing at a top level could be a pretty good place to start a comparison? We could start when Graf won her first major in 1987 and Seles was 13 at the time. But, that doesn't seem quite fair.
I think the general point is that over that 3yr period, Seles was dominating the GS events, not Graf. Now, the Seles fans can point to that and say "wow, she would've kept winning just as many in 1993 and 1994, even 1995, if she was not stabbed"...well, maybe yes, maybe no. It's a guess. If she kept up that high level of play, perhaps. But, who's to say she could've done that? Maybe she would've done a Bjorn Borg and walked away....she stayed away 2 full years, as it was, when she didn't really have to. Regardless, I do think Steffi would've had a few less wins, if Monica had not been stabbed.....that's not too much of a stretch to make.
I think Seles would have become even better during those years she missed. She missed her best years. She was still figuring out the grass of Wimbledon. Big girl power hitters Davenport and the Williams continued to improve as players until age 30. Seles was just barely if not even 20 when she was stabbed. It was clear to all who lived those years that Seles was the superior player to Graf, just like Rafa is to Federer.
Fed could not do anything to solve Rafa and Graf had no answers for Seles either.
Yes a player who couldnt win a Wimbledon (maybe without the stabbing she would have lucked out and won 1 max in a year she didnt face any of Graf, Novotna, Hingis, and certainly none of the new age power hitters, and that is being generous), couldnt beat Graf on any fast court, would have various new height, new body, injury, and family problems even without the stabbing soon to come, and who wouldnt have won any slams past mid 98 at the lastest (again being super generous, and giving her tons of baseless what if she wasnt stabbed considerations already, considering as it was her last slam was January 96) was going to win 25 slams or more. Martina must have been smoking the same crackpipe as when she guaranteed Nadal was going to win 2-3 slams every single year after 2010 and smash Federer's slam record by 2014 (I love Nadal, but that was never going to happen, and she didnt just predict it, but declared it with total certainty and even inferred Federer knew it was a foregone conclusion it would happen that quickly).
Martina's predictions are all over the place. I think she draws on her own personal experience during her Chris Evert rivalry in regards to her prediction of Nadal vs Federer. Her myopic view of tennis at times can be concerning. She might not be the best tennis analyst out there.
As you described, outer forces not in Monica's control seemed to create a period of chaos during a time when Monica should have continued to excel. Both mentally and physically she had tons to overcome. We should all feel fortunate that she returned to tennis and did as well as she did. It was good for tennis to see her comeback.
Martina's evolution in regards to her relationship with Monica (eg. grunting complaints) reveals a an old generational quasi political flip-flop that her peers embraced in the infancy of the Open Era. Siding with one enemy to eliminate another. Old school.
Martina's assessment of how Nadal was likely to match up with a 30 something Federer in years to come was quite correct, but unfortunately she didnt take into account that the mens game is nothing like the womens game in the Evert-Navratilova era. There are actually more than 2 players who play tennis (I am thinking of the ultra weak 82-84 period mostly), and someone else was likely to emerge at some point (turned out it was Djokovic), and most of all Nadal's history of injuries making it unlikely in any case he wouldnt have some relatively down years.
I agree with you on the rational behind Martina's "friendship" with Monica today. Martina was one of the biggest Monica detractors pre stabbing, and suddenly she became her best friend after. Sorry I dont think the intent of it is genuine in the least, and I feel sorry for guillable Monica who probably believes it is.
That is undoubtedly true.
The crazed man was trying to help Steffi's career and he succeeded.
Seles was extremely unpopular in the locker room particularly at the height of her immature antics 91/92. So it wasn't just Martina and Steffi that didn't like her (though for some reason Seles thought all players liked her except Gigi Fernandez).
Where Martina and Seles got closer was the WTA negotiations to get Seles back in the game in 1995. Martina went to FL regularly to negotiate her return and to practice with her. I think they've maintained a good relationship since. And my guess is that Martina's view is very much influenced by Seles' personal opinions. In other words, Martina says what Seles won't say publicly. Because post stabbing Seles is a much different person from who we remember so long ago. She's very mature, eloquent, and soft spoken.
This all just so happens to benefit Martina's case for GOAT too. Martina is the GOAT in my humble opinion. But she's very political. Much more so than Steffi or Chris in this respect. She should just let her record speak for itself.
Valid points. As much as I dont like to say something like this as it makes the tragedy sound like a good thing, when in no way it was that ,but Seles did became a much better human being after the stabbing. Chris Evert was one of those who noted that, she was robbed tennis wise but became a much better person with a much broader perspective on the World. Of course I suspect some of that was just the natural progress of becoming an adult too.
It might well be Martina finds her a much better kind of person to be friends with now than she was then. However almost immediately after the stabbing she began to suggest a close buddy-buddy thing with Seles, not just compassion and support in the wake of the awful stabbing, and this was less than a year after thrashing Seles to the press and the gruntometer controversy at Wimbledon. It wasnt a gradual thing over a few years. Sorry for me that and its intent comes across as a little suspicious and hard to believe. JMO
I do agree Martina needs to leave it alone. Even if she might not be the consensus GOAT anymore, she still has a decent proporition of people who back her as the GOAT, probably for the whole time she is still on Earth. She has many meaningful records, and her legacy as an all time great is forever secured, no matter how many in the milleniums to come surpass her. That should be good enough, promoting herself agressively and subtly biting at Graf and Serena frequently (and sometimes not so subtly) will not convince the people who think one or both of those rank as the GOAT above her now to change their minds, and if anything will just turn the general tennis fan population against her. The reaction to her comments in this thread, even based on something that could be seen as genuine and not based around her personal motives (but given her history, especialy regarding Graf, as you can see few believe) is already evidence enough her intent of what she is trying to do only backfires.
I'm surprised individuals exist who don't think Connolly would have won more than her nine majors, but for her accident.
A distinction between suffering a pre-meditated attack & suffering an accident should & isn't always made though. Latter point is a bit 'Bette Davis' territory for me, individual hardships shouldn't be a competition.
Predicting Seles' tournament performances pre & post stabbing = polar opposites. I do remember many commies at the time made remarks about Seles needing to get fitter to achieve similar feats, achieved pre-stabbing that is.
Agassi and ecstasy - Sports Illustrated.
To say the contretemps had its effect on Seles in the rain-plagued finals -- a rematch of her battle with Graf for the French Open championship, which Seles won 10-8 in the third -- is an understatement. "In Paris, Monica was really loud," Graf said with a smile before the match. "Will I complain here? We will see."
Corporate clones. Success (it could be argued, maturity was responsible - I'm not buying that.) brought -
Federer - cut his hair, wore ill advised 'garments' at Wimbledon, racquet smashing became alot rarer, almost non-existant. As for 'his box/support', moving on...
Nadal - sleeves were introduced, pirate pants disappeared, interviews became far less funny, hair was cut shorter & shorter.
And to 'prove' Nike isn't the only corporation to stifle 'personality.'
Djokovic - Humour seems forced were once it was simply endearing & funny, racquet smashes became infrequent. Boring babbling on about responsibility to the tour etc. The 'New Safin' disappeared as quickly as he appeared.
Seles - 1990-1993
Connolly - 1951-1954
Sometimes a little 'digging under the surface' is required. Of the GS events both competed in, Seles won 8/11, Connolly won 9/9. It should be pointed out, Seles was competing against a player (Graf) who won the grand slam two years previous to her four year period. (Winner of 7 of the previous 8 majors to boot.)
With hindsight, Graf should have abstained (or better yet agreed to the No.1 ranking being frozen) mirrored Sabatini regarding the top ranking. She gave Gunter on a plate, just what the man wanted, sadly she wasn't alone. The trophies won were won by her, no donation of trophies should have been given imo.
Well she could have beaten Seles in Berlin'90 & won more to be ranked No.1 on the computer but alas she didn't realise someone who is bed ridden in 2013 (karma?) was taking a sport seriously, far too seriously.
'Steffi had 22 but she didn’t have anyone to play against. This guy changed the course of tennis history, no doubt about that.'
I always feel sorry for Sanchez when these types of comments are made. A player who competed in some of the greatest matches of the 90s.
Navratilova absolutely correct with the latter point, Seles' career path not unique in changing the course of tennis history though. One of the very saddest mind, imo the saddest.
Maybe you should do a little research before you start telling lies.
Martina Navratilova has a beautiful fiancée, two beautiful daughters and a successful career.
Wow, with psychic talents like that you should be picking lottery numbers instead of reading Navratilova's mind :-|
Navratilova also fancied Graff but was of course turned down...
:lolnly in Steffi's dreams. Of course, Graf didn't turn down Sabatini & Rennae Stubbs
Navratilova is ugly as feck. Nobody would dream of hitting on her, especialy Graf who is quite attractive, fugly nose aside. I do believe a story of Navratilova making a play at her and being turned down more easily than the other way around.
As for Navratilova saying Seles would have broken Court's record and Graf would have hardly anymore slams after 92 if Seles werent stabbed, that is just Martina's bias. She loves Seles who is one of her best friends and she hates Graf and is jealous that Graf is considered greater than her these days. Boo hoo.
I love Seles but Graf's career was barely impacted by the Seles stabbing I believe. Lets assume Seles wins 6 slams in 93-96 which given her post 96 career is probably more than she really does. Graf would still probably win the other 10. How many did Graf win from 93-96 anyway. Oh yeah thats right 10.
As for Seles who generally did poorly vs Graf, Venus, Serena, Hingis, and even the lowly Davenport, and who didnt have the athletic ability or adaptability for a long career on top breaking Court's record someday, get a clue old haggy Martina. You make a fool of yourself with comments like that.
17 posts? Nice try, NadalAgassi sock puppet :roll:
perhaps I did not phrase it very well but I meant Navratilova made a pass at Graf;
my memory may be wrong but I seem to recall when Graf won her first Wimbledon by beating Navratilova, Navratilova gave her a present (a very expensive necklace iirc) which Graf did not accept, or a story like this so I sense bitterness!
really??? she tried to hit on her?? LOL
from my aged and jaded memory I remember something like this happened but have no proof and it is hazy, would not be surprised as Graf is an attractive lady
When he was drunk, which was often, Peter Graf repeated a story of a player hitting on Steffi in the locker room. Steffi herself stated later that this player later married a man,which rules out Navratilova.
It was Hana Mandlikova.
that really did make me lol (god I hate the lol) the most amazing legs, great figure pretty face EXCEPT the nose but I quite admire her lack of vanity as she could have had it 'sorted' which makes her attractive in my book!!!
I think you have that the wrong way round, what Steffi thought was a man made a pass at her in the locker room and then he/she married a woman...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc etc...I think her nose is the feature which makes her such a unique beauty. Unfortunately I can't say the same for Barbra Streisand. I once had a minor workmate-crush with a statuesque young blonde woman who had a similar schnozz to Steffi. As George and Jerry said in the Seinfeld "Pigman/The Moyle" episode, (I'm paraphrasing):
"Don't worry, there's always some ******* out there who likes that stuff..."
"Ooh that little pigtail always makes me squeal..."
Steffi looks hotter than ever now she is in her MILFilicious mid-40s.
I remember reading about some issue in I believe Florida where Steffi was nude sunbathing and a small plane kept circling overhead and thinking to myself. hmmmm. Or something like that.
Hana didn't like Steffi on any level. She gave Steffi the cold shoulder much like Rosie gave to Chris early on and for the same reasons. They hardly spoke to each other until near Hana's retirement. Oddly enough, Hana liked Heidi Graf and got on well with her once it was obvious that Hana was no longer a threat.
Becker and Lendl couldn´t stand each other, either.So much historical hate between Germans and czechs...
It is a joke to put Margaret Court forward as GOAT . A huge percentage of her slams were Australian Opens when hardly any of the top players competed. Often beating other Australians. Whether Steffi or Martina or Serena merit that accolade is debatable. There is a case for any of them. But certainly not Seles. Her 2 handed style on both sides got found out when she was still in her prime. Her game was ugly and she would probably never have won Wimbledon . Serena may be remembered for her serve, Steffi for her forehand and Martina for her net play. Monica for...... Her grunt.
If there was a 3 way tie Steffi should get it because she let her tennis do the talking and didn't bad mouth opponents or officials. A true champion.
Court to me is GOAT although I subscribe to Graf being the modern GOAT! Now, MN, while she couldn't deny Court, simply couldn't stomach the indignity of being bumped off as second best (at least).
Anyway, I would've loved it to be a four-way horse with Evert, Navralitova, Graf and Seles all collecting 18 Grand Slams apiece. Who would be GOAT? Court, yeah? Sure! And Navralitova chairing the debate for... ''Who is second best?''
I was a big fan of Martina's, but she does seem pretty bitter/jealous. I think if how generous Chrissy is toward Serena...she just wrote a really nice long piece nominating her for Sportsman of the year (SI), or how kind BJK is to the players that have come after her. I think Martina is just SO competitive, she just can't let it go after all these years. It's kind of sad and annoying, but when I think about it, it's just who she is. Might as well think of it as endearing in its own way...if she wasn't so competitive she wouldn't have been champion all those years. She really wanted to be GOAT and played a long time and put a lot of work in to accomplish that. And she succeeded in a lot of people's eyes, but she wants it all. Must be extra frustrating that Steffi seems so relatively disinterested.
Just to present the other side...
Actually, I really enjoy and appreciate her commentary and seek out matches where she handles that role. She is very insightful, candid, and she knows her stuff. For me, she will say what she is thinking - one of the few who will. She does not spend all her energies attempting to coin catchy lines, does not slobber all over the stars, and does not stay within the corporate, PC realm. All the power to you, Martina.
And in her prime, everyone else was standing still, it seemed.
I think a lot of these posts are valid and bring up certain points..Graf in no way is to blame for the stabbing..would Seles glam slam dominance continued ? yes most surely and the final tallies would be different..now let's take a look at the facts of graf's behaviour ( remember these are facts) .1) Graf early on only when pressed spoke about Monica after hamburg2) she did not speak out or vote to retain Monica number one ranking while she was away3) she openly complained about Seles protected co number one ranking when Martina ruled on it in 95. 4) she did hint she could possibly complain about Seles grunting in her post semi final press conference at Wimbledon in 92. 5) she signed a lucrative sponsorship deal that monica was about to sign just before the stabbing 6) she whined when she did not get a congrats card from Martina Navratilova when she won her 19 th slam..now I think Martina ( who went to visit Monica several times after Hamburg) was instrumental in getting her back to tennis and Graf sorry did nothing...the thing is it was in graf's best interests and legend status to play Monica in her prime and prove she could win slams again, she proved that in 95-96 but we all know Seles was not even at 75% of her past glory after she retuned..I am not convinced she would have won more than 24 slams without parche ( Seles that is) but she would have won more than steffi and that is probably what gulls Martina also I think she knows more about it than we do..( I don't buy this phone call bit from Graf by the way)...
Your joking right Graf who wouldn't do interviews after losing didn't pay her taxes and had her father cheat coach her from the stands..all this without going into the whole Seles stabbing you come across as a Graf fan who knows she only got what she got ( 22 slams) because the true number one was out of the game for basically three years of her prime...Seles goes down in the history books for being one of most mentally tough competitors out there btw not her grunt...you lose all credibility with that comment..
I agree that Seles would not have won 24 plus slams but certainly more than 12 ..you are stating that her previous three years dominate play would simply drop to a new low where the evidence shows she was getting better every year ( a early 93 Seles was certainly much better than a 91 version) and back then 19 years of age was just starting her prime years...faulty logic sorry...
Of course Graf had more shams she was on the tour since 84 a good five to six years before Monica started playing at all which also explains the 6-4 head to head as the younger player always gets beat up at he beginning of a match up..what the poster was saying and you fail to acknowledge is thAt since monca strAted coming into her own she was winning everything except Wimbledon 4 basically three years that ended in an insane moment in Hamburg in 93... Graf fans hate that and try to spin it so many different ways the truth hurts....Serena Williams I hope will beat this inflated record And I hope Monica is there to giver her 23 slam trophy...
It´s really simple:
Seles, returns after 2.5 years and gets straight to the US Open final against Graf where she loses in 3 sets and still destroys her 6:0 in the 2nd set. Then she goes on to win the AO in 1996.
Now, what does that tell you about the women´s competiton back then? Seles was nowhere near her best at that time, not physically and certainly not psychologically but she still could kick ass. Actually Graf should have won like every Slam while Seles was absent, but she didn´t. It´s just a shame that this dumb ****** Parche destroyed the only thing that was worth watching in women´s tennis back then.
First of all, the premise is wrong. It is not a universal truth that the younger player always loses at the beginning of a match-up. It is true nowadays, because the new generations are simply incapable of overtaking the older champions. But what in fact was often the case in tennis history is that younger players who would become champions would start beating the older players sooner rather than later. Look at how Connors, Becker, Sampras or even Federer came along - immediately beating champions from the past generation. Second of all, the Graf-Seles rivalry until 1993 goes Graf-Graf-Graf-Seles-Seles-Graf-Graf-Seles-Graf-Seles. This suggests an ongoing rivalry with ups and downs, not the "older player beating up the younger player" and the "Seles-becoming-utterly-dominant" scenarios you're describing.
My head hurts just trying to decipher your attempts of the English language.
I do agree with you on only one thing, or atleast one thing I think you said through all that butchered English. I also hope Serena wins more slams than Graf, but only since Serena is the best.
Yes like Graf is the only champion to ever receive some coaching from the stands. I guess you forget Justine Henin, who had Carlos Rodriguez use hand signals on practically every single point she played her whole career. Graf never had anything even close to approaching that.
Also how do you know exactly what occured with the taxes unless you are a personal friend or family member of Steffi's (which I highly doubt). Her father is a known scumbag who had numerous affairs, been charged with assaults, been charged with money laundering on other instances, etc....To just presume Graf was the one at fault without any evidence is laughable.
Do you agree with me that the break was what killed Seles' comeback? To me, it was just too long. No one would have any hope of a return to their best form mentally if they take a 2yr break. The stabbing was a crippling event yes, but seeing as it healed in months and it took her years to come back, it just seems to me she really dwelled on it. And that's what really led to her not being mentally tough anymore.
Yes I remember the medias saying that she was already ok by mid/end of 1993 as far as her stabbing wound went and she was expected to return in late 1993 or early 1994. Maybe she wanted to take a break as long as possible to enjoy her life outside of tennis or she just lost her passion for tennis at that time. Still it would have been the return of the decade if she beat Graf at the US Open 1995, she was close enough anyway.
A lot of u are forgetting about her fathers illness. I think that would have had a really
big impact on her slam total in that time period
she was able to return physically to play by wimbledon. that's how little the physical injury was. the psychological one though, took her quite a long time to deal with it.
I agree Monica's fathers illness would have affected her results adversely in the 96-98 period regardless. That she was dealing with the layoff, losing momentum, loss of fitness, and any other aftermath of the stabbing, just made it that much worse.
I have a feeling from reading your reply that a lot of things would make your head hurt..try to debate without insulting people it makes you look immature and petty...
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