Martina's head to head vs the old guard.

[BTURNER]

Court 2 - Navratilova 5

1975 Aussie Open Q Grass
Navratilova 6-4 6-3
1975 chicago F Carpet
Court 6-3 3-6 6-2
1975 Boston S Hard
Navratilova 3-6 6-1 6-4
1975 Wimbledon Q Grass
Court 6-3 6-4
1975 US Open Q Clay
Navratilova 6-2 6-4
1976 Sydney Q Grass
Navratilova 6-3 6-4
1977 Los Angeles S Hard
Navratilova 5-7 6-4 6-4

King 5 Navratilova 9

1977 Atlanta Q Hard
King 6-4 6-1
1977 Phoenix S Hard
King 7-6 4-6 6-4
1977 Sao Paolo Q Hard
King 6-2 3-6 6-4
1978 Houston F Carpet
Navratilova 1-6 6-2 6-2
1978 Kansas City F Hard
Navratilova 7-5 2-6 6-3
1978 Eastborne S Grass
Navratilova 6-4 6-2
1979 Chichester Q Grass
King 6-1 6-2
1979 Brighton S Carpet
Navratilova 7-5 0-6 7-6
1980 Chicago S Carpet
Navratilova 7-6 3-6 6-1
1980 Houston F Carpet
King 6-1 6-3
1980 La Costa S Hard
Navratilova 4-6 7-6 6-0
1980 Avon Championship R1 Carpet
Navratilova 6-2 6-3
1980 Wimbledon Q Grass
Navratilova 7-6 1-6 10-8
1981 Los Angeles Q Carpet
Navratilova 6-3 7-5

Wade 6 Navratilova 18

1974 Eastborne S Grass
Wade 3-6 6-1 6-4
1974 VS Champions Los Angeles Q Carpet
Wade 6-4 6-3
1975 Washington DC S Hard
Navratilova 6-3 7-6 (0)
1975 Boston Q hard
Navratilova 6-2 1-6 7-5
1975 Dallas F Carpet
Wade 2-6 7-6 (3) 4-3 RET
1975 VS Champions Los Angeles R32 Carpet
Navratilova 7-5 6-3
1975 Atlanta S Hard
Navratilova 7-6 6-3
1976 Eastborne S Grass
Wade 6-4 6-4
1977 Washington DC S Carpet
Navratilova 7-6 6-0
1977 Detroit S Carpet
Navratilova 7-5 6-3
1977 Osaka F hard
Wade 5-7 7-5 6-4
1977 Palm Springs R1
Wade 7-5 7-6
1978 Detroit S Carpet
Navratilova 6-4 6-2
1978 Kansas City S Hard
Navratilova 7-6 6-3
1978 Atlanta S Carpet
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1978 Palm Springs R2 Hard
Navratilova 6-2 6-1
1979 Houston F Carpet
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1979 Avon champions R1 Carpet
Navratilova 6-4 6-4
1979 San Diego S Carpet
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1979 Atlanta Q Hard
Navratilova 6-4 6-1
1980 Kansas City S Carpet
Navratilova 7-5 6-1
1980 Dallas S Carpet
Navratilova 6-1 6-4
1984 Livingston R16 Carpet
Navratilova 6-0 6-2
1985 French Open R64 Clay
Navratilova 6-3 6-0

Richey-Gunter 2 Navratilova 4

1973 French Open R16 Clay
Navratilova 6-3 6-3
Richey-Gunter 1-6 6-3 7-6
1975 San Francisco Q Hard
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1975 Amelia Island R16 Hard
Navratilova 7-5 7-5
1975 Phoenix S Hard
Richey-Gunter 6-1 6-3
1976 Houston S Hard
Navratilova 5-7 6-0 7-5

Durr 1 Navratilova 6

1974 Orlando S Clay
Navratilova 5-7 7-6 6-1
1975 Akron R16 Hard
Navratilova 6-2 6-3
1976 Sarasota R16 Carpet
Navratilova 6-1 6-4
1976 Los Angeles R2 Hard
Navratilova 4-6 6-4 6-2
1976 Wimbledon R16 Grass
Navratilova 2-6 6-3 7-5
1976 Palm Springs Q Hard
Durr 6-1 6-1
1977 Washington DC Q Carpet
Navratilova 6-1 6-1

Stove 3 Navratilova 16

1974 US Open R32 Grass
Navratilova 6-2 6-2
1975 Detroit q Hard
Navratilova 6-1 6-2
1975 Charlotte S Hard
Navratilova 4-6 6-4 6-4
1976 Chicago R16 Carpet
Navratilova 6-3 3-6 6-2
1976 Atlanta R16 Hard
Stove 6-1 3-6 6-3
1976 Sydney F Grass
Navratilova 7-5 6-2
1977 Philadelphia Q Hard
Navratilova 6-2 6-4
1977 VS Champions Q Carpet
Navratilova 6-0, 6-4
1977 Wimbledon Q Grass
Stove 9-8 3-6 6-1
1978 Washington Dc F Carpet
Navratilova 7-5 6-4
1978 Houston S Carpet
Navratilova 6-2 7-6
1978 Chicago S Carpet
Navratilova 6-2 7-6
1978 Seattle F Carpet
Navratilova 6-1 1-6 6-1
1978 VS Champions Oakland R1 Carpet
Navratilova 6-2,6-3
1978 Palm springs R1 Hard
Navratilova 6-1 6-0
1979 Chicago R16 Carpet
Navratilova 6-3, 6-2
1980 Los Vegas R32 hard
Navratilova 6-1 6-0
1980 Eastborne
EASTBOURNE R16 Grass
Stove 6-3 3-6 7-5
1981 Minneapolis R32 Carpet
Navratilova 6-4 6-3

Casals 4 Navratilova 9

1974 Palm springs R32 Hard
Casals 6-2 3-6 6-4
1974 VS of Detroit R16 Carpet
Casals 7-5 7-5
1974 Chicago R16 CARPET
Casals 6-2 6-2
1974 Dallas R16 Carpet
Casals 6-2 6-2
1974 Orlando Q Clay
Navratilova 6-7 7-5 6-3
1975 San Francisco R16 Hard
Navratilova 1-6 7-5 7-6
1977 Seattle s Carpet
Navratilova7-5 6-4
1977 Philadelphia s Hard
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1978 Los Angeles f Hard
Navratilova 6-3 6-2
1979 Los Angeles R32 Hard
Navratilova 6-3 6-1
1979 Hilton Head R32 Clay
Navratilova 6-2 6-4
1979 Wimbledon R32 Grass
Navratilova 6-3, 6-3
1981 Surbiton R32 Grass
Navratilova 6-4 6-1

 

[PDJ]

Fascinating
Especially the BJK stats. Closer than I would have thought.
Out of interest, do you know how Sue Barker did against Navratilova?

 

[suwanee4712]

I think what the "relative " closeness or competitiveness of these series suggests a couple of things. The style of play in this era, when a significant portion of the tour was still played on grass, proved a challenge for Martina. All of these players could force Martina to make shots using their own aggression. That's not usually something that a serve and volley player like her enjoys being forced to do.

I also believe that it does take serve and volleyers more time to grow into their games. Each time a player steps up in level, you have to adjust more to the speed of shots and to the angles, particularly for serve and volleyers. Plus Martina was a late bloomer anyway.

She still is comprehensively better than these players as the records reflect. But it surprises me that Martina was capable of losing to someone like Stove as late as 1980 when she is past her prime as a singles player with the vulnerabilities that she had.

I think you also have to factor in that Martina's style of play, though more dangerous, is more prone to upsets because of the risks involved.

Still, these are very good, successful records vs. some fantastic players. But it's impossible not to see the differences in Martina's records against these players compared to Chris' records against them.

 

[spencerjudd]

Frankly I don't see how her 9-5 record vs King, when every single match was played when King was 33 (nearly 34) or older is really an edge. If anything it is clear edge King. 33/34 year old King won her first 3 matches ever vs 21 year old/world #2 Navratilova. Roughly 36 year old King spanked Navratilova twice on her 2 best surfaces (grass and carpet) when Martina was now a Wimbledon winner and world #1.

Some suggest the 9-9 record between Navratilova vs Graf for instance is advantage Martina, despite that Martina managed a mere 2 wins over Graf in 7 years when she was older than 30 (and took a lot of losses to 16/17 year old Graf while still in her prime). Well if that is the case I would say the head to head between King and Navratilova is heavily favorable to King, as comparatively she did a ton better vs a much younger Martina in old age than Martina did vs Graf for instance.

 

[Vanhool]

Frankly I don't see how her 9-5 record vs King, when every single match was played when King was 33 (nearly 34) or older is really an edge. If anything it is clear edge King. 33/34 year old King won her first 3 matches ever vs 21 year old/world #2 Navratilova. Roughly 36 year old King spanked Navratilova twice on her 2 best surfaces (grass and carpet) when Martina was now a Wimbledon winner and world #1.

Some suggest the 9-9 record between Navratilova vs Graf for instance is advantage Martina, despite that Martina managed a mere 2 wins over Graf in 7 years when she was older than 30 (and took a lot of losses to 16/17 year old Graf while still in her prime). Well if that is the case I would say the head to head between King and Navratilova is heavily favorable to King, as comparatively she did a ton better vs a much younger Martina in old age than Martina did vs Graf for instance.

I agree!

10BJKs

 

[Verbal Volley]

Fascinating
Especially the BJK stats. Closer than I would have thought.
Out of interest, do you know how Sue Barker did against Navratilova?

Navratilova 17, Barker 3

 

[paolo2143]

The fact that King was only 5-9 down against Martina and 5-5 between 77-80 (up until Houston) when she was clearly past her peak while Martina in her early prime years, is not great for Martina.

Also in relation to Margaret Court. Margaret had 3 children between 72 and 76 and was stop - staring her career, so for her to be only 2-3 down during 75 is not bad at all for Court.

 

[Verbal Volley]

Frankly I don't see how her 9-5 record vs King, when every single match was played when King was 33 (nearly 34) or older is really an edge. If anything it is clear edge King. 33/34 year old King won her first 3 matches ever vs 21 year old/world #2 Navratilova. Roughly 36 year old King spanked Navratilova twice on her 2 best surfaces (grass and carpet) when Martina was now a Wimbledon winner and world #1.

Some suggest the 9-9 record between Navratilova vs Graf for instance is advantage Martina, despite that Martina managed a mere 2 wins over Graf in 7 years when she was older than 30 (and took a lot of losses to 16/17 year old Graf while still in her prime). Well if that is the case I would say the head to head between King and Navratilova is heavily favorable to King, as comparatively she did a ton better vs a much younger Martina in old age than Martina did vs Graf for instance.

Actually Graf was 8-9 against Martina. Billie Jean was amazing. She won against players half her age by virtue of her ability to use the entire court to her advantage.

 

[BringBackWood]

You can't compare fat Martina to the goat in the mid 80's. Fat Martina wasn't a great player and the standards in 70's women tennis was similarly not great. With the admission that the graphite and larger head rackets helped, Martina almost single handedly elevated the women's tennis to a far higher ceiling and when Evert/Mandlikova somewhat caught up in the mid 80's, it produced some of the finest tennis their side of the game will ever see. The 70's game was largely pedestrian in comparison.

 

[pat200]

Actually Graf was 8-9 against Martina. Billie Jean was amazing. She won against players half her age by virtue of her ability to use the entire court to her advantage.

9-9

 

[Verbal Volley]

You can't compare fat Martina to the goat in the mid 80's. Fat Martina wasn't a great player and the standards in 70's women tennis was similarly not great. With the admission that the graphite and larger head rackets helped, Martina almost single handedly elevated the women's tennis to a far higher ceiling and when Evert/Mandlikova somewhat caught up in the mid 80's, it produced some of the finest tennis their side of the game will ever see. The 70's game was largely pedestrian in comparison.

1970s pedestrian??? OMG! Evert, King, Court, Goolagong, Wade, Navratilova, Casals, Morozova, Richey, etc... all playing on wooden racquets with a tiny racquet and tiny sweet spot. With the new, large head racquets, you can hit it off center and still hit a good offensive shot. Plus, you needed to generate your own pace with a wooden racquet. The racquets of today aid in the power department. Finally, if you hit "off center" with a wood racquet you felt it, not only in your elbow, but also in your wrist and arm. Tennis should have never switched to composite racquets, and instead stuck with the wooden racquet, just as baseball has kept the wooden bats and not switched to metal bats. The 1970s were awesome!

 

[jrepac]

1970s pedestrian??? OMG! Evert, King, Court, Goolagong, Wade, Navratilova, Casals, Morozova, Richey, etc... all playing on wooden racquets with a tiny racquet and tiny sweet spot. With the new, large head racquets, you can hit it off center and still hit a good offensive shot. Plus, you needed to generate your own pace with a wooden racquet. The racquets of today aid in the power department. Finally, if you hit "off center" with a wood racquet you felt it, not only in your elbow, but also in your wrist and arm. Tennis should have never switched to composite racquets, and instead stuck with the wooden racquet, just as baseball has kept the wooden bats and not switched to metal bats. The 1970s were awesome!

Pedestrian might be a poor choice of adjectives, given the number of truly great players in action during that decade. But, I do agree that MN took it to the next level and Evert had to work harder than ever to catch up in the 80's. King played dubs w/MN early on, so I'm thinking she knew her game pretty well.

 

[Verbal Volley]

Pedestrian might be a poor choice of adjectives, given the number of truly great players in action during that decade. But, I do agree that MN took it to the next level and Evert had to work harder than ever to catch up in the 80's. King played dubs w/MN early on, so I'm thinking she knew her game pretty well.

I agree with you that the Evert/Navratilova era was great. Also, I was lucky enough to see Billie and Martina play as a doubles team, and in my opinion, they were even better than Navratilova/Shriver, but Martina ended the partnership because Billie was playing fewer tournaments and missing too many others because of various injuries.

 

[Verbal Volley]

9-9

I always thought it was 8-9, but I guess I was mistaken.

 

[BringBackWood]

1970s pedestrian??? OMG! Evert, King, Court, Goolagong, Wade, Navratilova, Casals, Morozova, Richey, etc... all playing on wooden racquets with a tiny racquet and tiny sweet spot. With the new, large head racquets, you can hit it off center and still hit a good offensive shot. Plus, you needed to generate your own pace with a wooden racquet. The racquets of today aid in the power department. Finally, if you hit "off center" with a wood racquet you felt it, not only in your elbow, but also in your wrist and arm. Tennis should have never switched to composite racquets, and instead stuck with the wooden racquet, just as baseball has kept the wooden bats and not switched to metal bats. The 1970s were awesome!

My username should suggest to you that I am in agreement! Yes, 'advancements' helped MN's game, but both things can be true. Martina elevated the game tremendously, independent of racket progression. Put her prime in the 70's and she's embarrassing the field. Of course what would have happened is other players like Evert would have stepped up, like she was eventually forced to. The fact that Martina felt she could turn up overweight and still win and complete for grand slams says a lot about the standard.

Larger racket heads tend to favour passing shots (i.e. Evert) more than the net rusher. Evert was clearly a better player, in better shape, in the mid 80's than at any point in her career. And she was a great player, but clearly second best off clay.