Mastering 1 up 1 back doubles

[Dartagnan64]

So two players in a Calcutta tournament. One player is a strong singles player with heavy topspin groundstrokes, very good serve, good lateral movement. Partner is an all court player with mediocre serve and groundstrokes but strong net game and positioning. The singles player is uncomfortable at the net but can hit overheads and make simple volleys. Generally prefers to retreat whereas the all court player is always looking to move forward.

It's unlikely the singles player is going to be convinced to play 2 up doubles routinely and likely the team would be weaker that way given it's playing into the stronger players weaknesses. So the decision is to try to compete with a 1up/1back formation for the most part with the stronger net player moving forward and covering the net and the stronger baseline player patrolling the baseline.

Strengths:
1)Lob is covered and the baseliner can hit tremendous topspin lob reply that takes opponents into the fence
2) CC rallies with the baseliner pinning the opponent deep and the net player attacking any weak cross for a put away volley - these are almost gimme points
3) Stronger player's service game with the net player aggressively poaching

Weaknesses:
1) All court player's service game where the net player is now not comfortable in that position
2) The angled short shot away from the net player but bouncing 2-3 times before the baseline

Played first Calcutta match - 8 games, no ad. Team was up 4-2 but then lost the last two games on the sudden death point. In exactly the same way. Opponents got the angled shot away from the net player and in front of the baseline player who couldn't react in time to reach it. 4-4 tie. Games get recorded and most games won gets out of your box. 3 more matches to go.

Certainly this approach plays to the team's strengths but it does have the flaws of not providing as much court coverage as a 2 up stagger formation would. But I think reviewing some Mirza/Hingis doubles play might be informative since they relied on a lot of 1up/1back play in their few years of domination.

Any advice on mitigating the weaknesses in this formation? Anyone been successful playing doubles this way in a tournament?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

@Dartagnan64

Weaknesses:
1) All court player's service game where the net player is now not comfortable in that position

Have the net player play back. Now he's in his comfort zone.

Bonus: if the other team doesn't think about it, they will avoid the net man and hit to the guy staying back which happens to be the one with strong GSs.


2) The angled short shot away from the net player but bouncing 2-3 times before the baseline

Is the other team doing this on purpose or it's luck/random?

If the latter, I wouldn't worry about it.

If the former, use Aussie.

Don't serve wide: this opens up the angle to hit that shot.

 

[Dartagnan64]

@Dartagnan64

Weaknesses:
1) All court player's service game where the net player is now not comfortable in that position

Have the net player play back. Now he's in his comfort zone.

Bonus: if the other team doesn't think about it, they will avoid the net man and hit to the guy staying back which happens to be the one with strong GSs.


2) The angled short shot away from the net player but bouncing 2-3 times before the baseline

Is the other team doing this on purpose or it's luck/random?

If the latter, I wouldn't worry about it.

If the former, use Aussie.

Don't serve wide: this opens up the angle to hit that shot.

issue with net player staying back increases the susceptibility to the drop shot and eliminates pressure on the returner. It would be nice to have him there to poach a bad return then teleport back to the baseline lol.

the other issue of angled short shots is not off the return of service. It’s later in the rally often off a volleys. If the volley is imperfect and the opponent deflects it away from the net guy, the baseline partner struggles to get to it. So some of it is certainly lucky/good hands by the opponent.

i guess it’s probably only 4-5 times it happened but 2 of those times were on sudden death points. So it sticks in your mind as an uncovered area.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

issue with net player staying back increases the susceptibility to the drop shot and eliminates pressure on the returner. It would be nice to have him there to poach a bad return then teleport back to the baseline lol.

Pick your poison. The drawbacks you mentioned are real. It's up to the team, especially the net player, to decide if the tradeoff is worth it.

the other issue of angled short shots is not off the return of service. It’s later in the rally often off a volleys. If the volley is imperfect and the opponent deflects it away from the net guy, the baseline partner struggles to get to it. So some of it is certainly lucky/good hands by the opponent.

i guess it’s probably only 4-5 times it happened but 2 of those times were on sudden death points. So it sticks in your mind as an uncovered area.

I'd continue to play the odds then and not change anything just to address this situation.

Anything can happen in sudden death but I don't change my sound strategy to a non-optimal one just to defend against the outlier. If they get lucky and hit the improbable winner, c'est la vie.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Anything can happen in sudden death but I don't change my sound strategy to a non-optimal one just to defend against the outlier. If they get lucky and hit the improbable winner, c'est la vie.

yes. Likely it’s a bit of confirmation bias. I still think given the team strengths, the pros outweigh the cons. I’ll just try to use, “up, up!” more generously if I see the short ball on its way.

 

[socallefty]

When the strong net player is serving or returning, his partner who is weaker at the net should stay back at the baseline also at the start in 2-back formation. The strong net player should S-V and chip-charge so that he gets to the net quickly after his serves and returns. This will ensure that they are playing 1-back with the strong baseliner always at the baseline and the strong net guy always at the net.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Well Match 2 was a good example of the pro's of this formation. The opponent chip-lobbed over the all court player and came in. The baseliner took those balls and ripped heavy topspin shots, over, past and dipping low at the opponents. All court player barely touched the ball and as the weaker player it played into the strengths of the team to give the strong baseliner his shots.

Won 7-1.

It still worked when the all court player was serving to have the baseliner play up at least for the return. There were enough weak returns to make that worthwhile. But if the rally got longer, the all court player moved in asap and the baseliner retreated waiting the inevitable lob.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Well Match 2 was a good example of the pro's of this formation. The opponent chip-lobbed over the all court player and came in. The baseliner took those balls and ripped heavy topspin shots, over, past and dipping low at the opponents. All court player barely touched the ball and as the weaker player it played into the strengths of the team to give the strong baseliner his shots.

Won 7-1.

It still worked when the all court player was serving to have the baseliner play up at least for the return. There were enough weak returns to make that worthwhile. But if the rally got longer, the all court player moved in asap and the baseliner retreated waiting the inevitable lob.

So I get at least partial credit?

 

[Dartagnan64]

So I get at least partial credit?

yes. You’re reassurance to keep it going and not overthink it was sage indeed.

 

[socallefty]

Are the opponents from your 1st match doing better than your 2nd opponents in their other Calcutta matches? The effectiveness of a strategy (even if it is the right one) depends a lot on the level of the opponents. Your team has to figure out the best strategy for the two of you and trust it even if it does not work great against a strong team - other strategies might fare even worse. Stick with whatever works and if you get in a big deficit in a match, have a Plan B.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The second opponents were theoretically the better team by matches to date but again their strategy works against conventional teams but really fell apart when facing a less conventional team.

chip and get in generally works well but it played into our hands

 

[Dartagnan64]

Playing a 3rd box match tonight. Opponents are probably more singles players than doubles players so the all court player may be able to make a bigger difference. Less likely to lob and chip, more likely to hit groundstrokes that can be poached. Will see how it goes.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Well we lost the 3rd match 3-5. Their better player outplayed our better player both from the baseline and at net as well as on serve. Our better player was broken on serve with 3 DF's and that was the difference in a very tight contest.

 

[Traffic]

So two players in a Calcutta tournament. One player is a strong singles player with heavy topspin groundstrokes, very good serve, good lateral movement. Partner is an all court player with mediocre serve and groundstrokes but strong net game and positioning. The singles player is uncomfortable at the net but can hit overheads and make simple volleys. Generally prefers to retreat whereas the all court player is always looking to move forward.

It's unlikely the singles player is going to be convinced to play 2 up doubles routinely and likely the team would be weaker that way given it's playing into the stronger players weaknesses. So the decision is to try to compete with a 1up/1back formation for the most part with the stronger net player moving forward and covering the net and the stronger baseline player patrolling the baseline.

Strengths:
1)Lob is covered and the baseliner can hit tremendous topspin lob reply that takes opponents into the fence
2) CC rallies with the baseliner pinning the opponent deep and the net player attacking any weak cross for a put away volley - these are almost gimme points
3) Stronger player's service game with the net player aggressively poaching

Weaknesses:
1) All court player's service game where the net player is now not comfortable in that position
2) The angled short shot away from the net player but bouncing 2-3 times before the baseline

Played first Calcutta match - 8 games, no ad. Team was up 4-2 but then lost the last two games on the sudden death point. In exactly the same way. Opponents got the angled shot away from the net player and in front of the baseline player who couldn't react in time to reach it. 4-4 tie. Games get recorded and most games won gets out of your box. 3 more matches to go.

Certainly this approach plays to the team's strengths but it does have the flaws of not providing as much court coverage as a 2 up stagger formation would. But I think reviewing some Mirza/Hingis doubles play might be informative since they relied on a lot of 1up/1back play in their few years of domination.

Any advice on mitigating the weaknesses in this formation? Anyone been successful playing doubles this way in a tournament?

Last season, I partnered with a super consistent baseliner. I'm pretty consistent myself and my net play is a little stronger. We did fine playing one up and one back because we were very consistent and even though we got beat at net many times, we won so many other points that we continued to go undefeated. I would say both of us are under-rated for our league so we were able to get away with it.

If we played the next league up, our lack of net control would eventually put us at a disadvantage.

 

[Dartagnan64]

If we played the next league up, our lack of net control would eventually put us at a disadvantage.

I've seen a fair amount of this doubles style at the pro level so I suspect you can play this way at any level and get away with it provided your shots are up to par.

 

[sureshs]

So two players in a Calcutta tournament.

The city is now called Kolkatta.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Well my partner and I made the quarterfinals of our Calcutta so at least we broke even on our bid. Now we just have to get to the semis to make some coin.

Hasnt been pretty since I pinched a nerve in my neck and my shoulder is weak as hell. Playing through it but service games are an adventure as my partner is not a great net player and I’m not a great baseliner.

 

[nyta2]

Well my partner and I made the quarterfinals of our Calcutta so at least we broke even on our bid. Now we just have to get to the semis to make some coin.

Hasnt been pretty since I pinched a nerve in my neck and my shoulder is weak as hell. Playing through it but service games are an adventure as my partner is not a great net player and I’m not a great baseliner.

guessing you bought yourself?
did you buy any other teams in the runnign?

 

[Dartagnan64]

guessing you bought yourself?
did you buy any other teams in the runnign?

I have a 1/4 share in my team. I did not get in on anyone else because they aren't going to win any way .

But seriously, I'm not a high roller so the bidding got out of my price range pretty quickly. 20 teams 6 Grand in the kitty.

Quarters tonight, Semis and finals tomorrow. Round Robin was on outdoor clay and playoffs on indoor hard courts. As much as I love clay for recreational play, in matches I'm better on hard courts since the grippier surface plays better to my poaching net game. I have to leave too early on clay and the returner can hit behind me. That and the indoor low ceiling limit the lob return so they can't easily hit over me.

 

[nyta2]

I have a 1/4 share in my team. I did not get in on anyone else because they aren't going to win any way .

But seriously, I'm not a high roller so the bidding got out of my price range pretty quickly. 20 teams 6 Grand in the kitty.

Quarters tonight, Semis and finals tomorrow. Round Robin was on outdoor clay and playoffs on indoor hard courts. As much as I love clay for recreational play, in matches I'm better on hard courts since the grippier surface plays better to my poaching net game. I have to leave too early on clay and the returner can hit behind me. That and the indoor low ceiling limit the lob return so they can't easily hit over me.

good luck!
when you're the favoirte to win & the bid for you is high... the pressure to win goes waaay up (at least for me it does )

 

[Dartagnan64]

good luck!
when you're the favoirte to win & the bid for you is high... the pressure to win goes waaay up (at least for me it does )

Admittedly we are not the favorite but we were in the top 6 bids. Generally with Calcutta's I always just buy into my team so that it does put some pressure on me to perform. Doesn't always work as my "clutchness" is suspect at times.

 

[Cashman]

$6K in the kitty is a fair amount of money. I’m surprised unlicensed sports betting is allowed to that extent in Canada.

 

[Dartagnan64]

$6K in the kitty is a fair amount of money. I’m surprised unlicensed sports betting is allowed to that extent in Canada.

I think it's not an issue because the bidding is amongst participants and not outside agents. Our club has a big Calcutta every year where the kitty is about $20,000 for 36 teams.

In any event we lost our quarterfinal in a tiebreak. Epic battle but they got a couple great points near the end and took it 7-5 in the tiebreak. Next year I hope my shoulder and neck are OK so I can serve again. It was pitiful this year. At least I didn't tear an achilles like one team did. Ouch. That's what happens in a tourney with a bunch of 40-60 year olds.