Match points saved and squandered by the Big Four

I think generally Federer just wins because he wins way more points than the opponent, and when the points go 50/50 that Federer actually gets tight and is more likely to choke than Djokovic and Nadal.
It's not necessarily that he's more likely to choke - he plays a more aggressive game. That, by definition, is high-risk high-reward - evidenced by the numbers. Sometimes when you go for the shots they don't come off. Nadal and Djokovic, historically, have tightened up their game when it's a big point. They trust they can defend until the other guy makes a mistake.
 

Clay lover

Hall of Fame
Wow...never realized Federer lost so many.

I will never forget those Murray/Robredo matches in Shenzhen and Valencia.

Shenzhen: Robredo was up 7-5, 6-6 (6-2) and I went to cook breakfast. When I came back Murray was ahead 5-1 in the 3rd set. I was stunned.

Valencia: One of the best 3 set matches Ive seen. reminded me a lot of Djokovic/Nadal from Madrid. Robredo blew match points in the 2nd set, but didnt tank the 3rd set like Shenzhen. The MP rally that Murray won on was one of the better match points Ive ever seen.
Will never forget the double finger Robredo gave in jest. Classic moment.
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
Code:
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                                  ***FEDERER***                    

MP WASTED (20)                       

2018 Wimbledon       QF   Anderson       6–2, 7–6(5), 5–7, 4–6, 11–13      (1MP)
2018 Indian Wells    F    del Potro      4–6, 7–6(8), 6–7(2)               (3MP)
2017 Stuttgart       R16  Haas           6–2, 6–7(8), 4–6                  (1MP)
2017 Dubai           R16  Donskoy        6–3, 6–7(7), 6–7(5)               (3MP)
2016 Stuttgart       SF   Thiem          6–3, 6–7(7), 4–6                  (2MP)
2015 Madrid          R32  Kyrgios        7–6(2), 6–7(5), 6–7(12)           (2MP)
2014 Rome            R32  Chardy         6–1, 3–6, 6–7(6)                  (1MP)
2013 Dubai           SF   Berdych        6–3, 6–7(8), 4–6                  (3MP)
2011 US Open         SF   Djokovic       7–6(7), 6–4, 3–6, 2–6, 5–7        (2MP)
2010 Paris           SF   Monfils        6–7(7), 7–6(1), 6–7(4)            (5MP)!
2010 US Open         SF   Djokovic       7–5, 1–6, 7–5, 2–6, 5–7           (2MP)
2010 Miami           R16  Berdych        4–6, 7–6(3), 6–7(6)               (1MP)
2010 Indian Wells    R32  Baghdatis      7–5, 5–7, 6–7(4)                  (3MP)
2006 Rome            F    Nadal          7–6(0), 6–7(5), 4–6, 6–2, 6–7(5)  (2MP)
2005 Monte Carlo     QF   Gasquet        7–6(1), 2–6, 6–7(8)               (3MP)
2005 Aus Open        SF   Safin          7–5, 4–6, 7–5, 6–7(6), 7–9        (1MP)
2003 Miami           QF   Costa          6–7(4), 6–4, 6–7(7)               (3MP)
2002 Aus Open        R16  Haas           6–7(3), 6–4, 6–3, 4–6, 6–8        (1MP)
2001 Halle           QF   Rafter         6–4, 6–7(6), 6–7(4)               (1MP)
2000 Vienna          SF   Henman         6–2, 6–7(4), 3–6                  (2MP)

MP SAVED (18)                      

2018 Halle           R16  Paire          6–3, 3–6, 7–6(7)                  (2MP)
2017 Miami           QF   Berdych        6–2, 3–6, 7–6(6)                  (2MP)
2016 Wimbledon       QF   Cilic          6–7(4), 4–6, 6–3, 7–6(9), 6–3     (3MP)
2014 London WTF      SF   Wawrinka       4–6, 7–5, 7–6(6)                  (4MP)
2014 Shanghai        R32  Mayer          7–5, 3–6, 7–6(7)                  (5MP)
2014 US Open         QF   Monfils        4–6, 3–6, 6–4, 7–5, 6–2           (2MP)
2011 Madrid          R32  López          7–6(13), 6–7(1), 7–6(7)           (1MP)
2006 Shanghai TMC    RR   Roddick        4–6, 7–6(8), 6–4                  (3MP)
2006 Halle           QF   Rochus         6–7(2), 7–6(9), 7–6(5)            (4MP)
2005 Dubai           R16  Ferrero        4–6, 6–3, 7–6(6)                  (2MP)
2003 Houston TMC     RR   Agassi         6–7(3), 6–3, 7–6(7)               (2MP)
2003 Paris           R16  Verkerk        6–7(3), 7–6(12), 7–6(6)           (4MP)
2003 Cincinnati      R64  Draper         4–6, 6–3, 7–6(10)                 (7MP)!!
2001 Vienna          R32  Massú          4–6, 7–6(8), 6–4                  (3MP)
2001 Miami           R16  Johansson      7–6(3), 5–7, 7–6(7)               (1MP)
2000 Basel           SF   Hewitt         6–4, 5–7, 7–6(6)                  (1MP)
2000 Marseille       QF   Ljubicic       6–2, 3–6, 7–6(5)                  (2MP)
1999 Rotterdam       R32  Raoux          6–7(4), 7–5, 7–6(3)               (2MP)

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                                    ***NADAL***                      

MP WASTED (7)

2016 Buenos Aires    SF   Thiem          4–6, 6–4, 6–7(4)                  (1MP)
2015 Indian Wells    QF   Raonic         6–4, 6–7(10), 5–7                 (3MP)
2010 Doha            F    Davydenko      6–0, 6–7(8), 4–6                  (2MP)
2005 Cincinnati      R64  Berdych        7–6(4), 2–6, 6–7(3)               (3MP)
2004 Stuttgart       QF   Ferrer         3–6, 7–6(3), 5–7                  (3MP)
2004 Indian Wells    R32  Calleri        4–6, 6–3, 6–7(10)                 (3MP)
2003 Bastad          QF   Lapentti       6–3, 3–6, 6–7(6)                  (5MP)!!

MP SAVED (13)

2017 Beijing         R32  Pouille        4–6, 7–6(6), 7–5                  (2MP)
2016 Indian Wells    R16  Zverev         6–7(8), 6–0, 7–5                  (1MP)
2015 Paris           R16  Anderson       4–6, 7–6(6), 6–2                  (1MP)
2014 Rio             SF   Andujar        2–6, 6–3, 7–6(10)                 (2MP)
2010 Tokyo           SF   Troicki        7–6(4), 4–6, 7–6(7)               (2MP)
2010 Cincinnati      R16  Benneteau      5–7, 7–6(6), 6–2                  (1MP)
2009 Paris           R32  Almagro        3–6, 7–6(2), 7–5                  (5MP)
2009 Madrid          SF   Djokovic       3–6, 7–6(5), 7–6(9)               (3MP)
2009 Indian Wells    R16  Nalbandian     3–6, 7–6(5), 6–0                  (5MP)!
2008 Chennai         SF   Moyá           6–7(3), 7–6(8), 7–6(1)            (4MP)
2006 Rome            F    Federer        6–7(0), 7–6(5), 6–4, 2–6, 7–6(5)  (2MP)
2006 Marseille       R32  Rochus         4–6, 6–2, 7–5                     (1MP)
2005 Aus Open        R64  Youzhny        6–1, 4–6, 4–6, 7–5, 6–3           (1MP)

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                                  ***DJOKOVIC***                    

MP WASTED (3)                      

2018 Queen's         F    Cilic          7–5, 6–7(4), 3–6                  (1MP)
2009 Madrid          SF   Nadal          6–3, 6–7(5), 6–7(9)               (3MP)
2007 Rotterdam       SF   Youzhny        6–3, 6–7(7), 5–7                  (3MP)

MP SAVED (12)                      

2017 Doha            SF   Verdasco       4–6, 7–6(7), 6–3                  (5MP)
2015 Montreal        QF   Gulbis         5–7, 7–6(7), 6–1                  (2MP)
2012 Shanghai        F    Murray         5–7, 7–6(11), 6–3                 (5MP)!
2012 Roland Garros   QF   Tsonga         6–1, 5–7, 5–7, 7–6(6), 6–1        (4MP)
2011 London WTF      RR   Berdych        3–6, 6–3, 7–6(3)                  (1MP)
2011 US Open         SF   Federer        6–7(7), 4–6, 6–3, 6–2, 7–5        (2MP)
2010 US Open         SF   Federer        5–7, 6–1, 5–7, 6–2, 7–5           (2MP)
2010 Indian Wells    R32  Kohlschreiber  6–3, 2–6, 7–6(3)                  (3MP)
2009 Basel           SF   Stepanek       6–7(4), 7–5, 6–2                  (3MP)
2009 Halle           R16  Serra          5–7, 7–5, 6–1                     (5MP)
2007 Vienna          QF   Chela          6–3, 5–7, 7–6(2)                  (2MP)
2005 Wimbledon       R64  G.Lopez        3–6, 3–6, 7–6(5), 7–6(3), 6–4     (3MP)

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
                                   ***MURRAY***                      

MP WASTED (5)                      

2012 Paris           R16  Janowicz       7–5, 6–7(4), 2–6                  (1MP)
2012 Shanghai        F    Djokovic       7–5, 6–7(11), 3–6                 (5MP)!
2012 Tokyo           SF   Raonic         3–6, 7–6(5), 6–7(4)               (2MP)
2010 Los Angeles     F    Querrey        7–5, 6–7(2), 3–6                  (1MP)
2008 Miami           R64  Ancic          2–6, 6–2, 6–7(7)                  (2MP)

MP SAVED (11)                        

2017 Dubai           QF   Kohlschreiber  6–7(4), 7–6(18), 6–1              (7MP)!
2016 London WTF      SF   Raonic         5–7, 7–6(5), 7–6(9)               (1MP)
2014 Valencia        F    Robredo        3–6, 7–6(7), 7–6(8)               (5MP)
2014 Shenzhen        F    Robredo        5–7, 7–6(9), 6–1                  (5MP)
2014 Cincinnati      QF   Isner          6–7(3), 6–4, 7–6(2)               (2MP)
2013 Miami           F    Ferrer         2–6, 6–4, 7–6(1)                  (1MP)
2007 St. Petersburg  SF   Youzhny        6–2, 5–7, 7–6(1)                  (1MP)
2007 Miami           R16  Mathieu        2–6, 7–5, 6–3                     (2MP)
2007 Indian Wells    QF   Haas           3–6, 6–3, 7–6(8)                  (2MP)
2006 Newport         R32  Mello          6–1, 1–6, 7–6(5)                  (5MP)
This is why i don't get it when people say Djokovic is weak mentally. Assuming these stats are correct, it is evident he is by far the most clutch and the mentally strongest amongst the Big 3.

It's also interesting to note that during their peak years, the Big 3 hardly wasted any MPs. Federer (2004-09) = 3 (2 of which were in ATG matches), Nadal (2007-13) = 1, Djokovic (2011-16) = 0.

It is clear with Federer as he got older, he squandered so many more MPs. None of them though, sting as much as that USO SF 2011!
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Sorta how they feel about Cincy these days vis-a-vis the USO. ;)
Cincy is a warm-up event, but it's a Masters and it's well attended! I never got the impression a player just used it as such! It might be the case, but at Queens you didn't see the effort when things got tough! THE top player back then usually just allowed himself to be excused and it was obvious! Too many points in play for today's pros to allow that kind of attitude in Cincy! You see what happened to Nole back in 2016; won 2 Majors, finalist at USO, & won 4 Masters, but still wound up 2nd in the world for the season to Murray! It came down to one match at the YEC final that decided #1! If Nole had just attended one more tourney, he would have been immortalized for all time after completing his Nole-Slam! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
This is why i don't get it when people say Djokovic is weak mentally. Assuming these stats are correct, it is evident he is by far the most clutch and the mentally strongest amongst the Big 3.

It's also interesting to note that during their peak years, the Big 3 hardly wasted any MPs. Federer (2004-09) = 3 (2 of which were in ATG matches), Nadal (2007-13) = 1, Djokovic (2011-16) = 0.

It is clear with Federer as he got older, he squandered so many more MPs. None of them though, sting as much as that USO SF 2011!
Squandering MPs isn't the only sign of mental weakness and squandering MPs isn't mental weakness in some context.
 

Sudacafan

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic squandered 9 match points against...... oh wait...

I've never seen that Djokovic Rotterdam match with Youzhny before, hope there is a copy somewhere...
Important to notice that the "Squandered MP's" concept is valid only when the match is finally lost by the involved player.
As Djokovic finally won this match, this ocurrence should not be taken in account for any stats.
 

Primavera

Rookie
Cincy is a warm-up event, but it's a Masters and it's well attended! I never got the impression a player just used it as such! It might be the case, but at Queens you didn't see the effort when things got tough! THE top player back then usually just allowed himself to be excused and it was obvious! Too many points in play for today's pros to allow that kind of attitude in Cincy! You see what happened to Nole back in 2016; won 2 Majors, finalist at USO, & won 4 Masters, but still wound up 2nd in the world for the season to Murray! It came down to one match at the YEC final that decided #1! If Nole had just attended one more tourney, he would have been immortalized for all time after completing his Nole-Slam! :rolleyes: :p ;)
There is no such a thing as a nole or nonnole slam. Slams are Grand and Career.
 

Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
This is why i don't get it when people say Djokovic is weak mentally. Assuming these stats are correct, it is evident he is by far the most clutch and the mentally strongest amongst the Big 3.

It's also interesting to note that during their peak years, the Big 3 hardly wasted any MPs. Federer (2004-09) = 3 (2 of which were in ATG matches), Nadal (2007-13) = 1, Djokovic (2011-16) = 0.

It is clear with Federer as he got older, he squandered so many more MPs. None of them though, sting as much as that USO SF 2011!
I think there's different variables of mental strength, and I also think it's stupid to treat it like a static thing that doesn't change.
 

Sudacafan

G.O.A.T.
This is why i don't get it when people say Djokovic is weak mentally. Assuming these stats are correct, it is evident he is by far the most clutch and the mentally strongest amongst the Big 3.

It's also interesting to note that during their peak years, the Big 3 hardly wasted any MPs. Federer (2004-09) = 3 (2 of which were in ATG matches), Nadal (2007-13) = 1, Djokovic (2011-16) = 0.

It is clear with Federer as he got older, he squandered so many more MPs. None of them though, sting as much as that USO SF 2011!
Regarding the most stinging Fed squandered MP, I agree with you for the 2011 USO SF against Djokovic.
Regarding the most important squandered MPs because of future implications, I would say the two Roger lost in the Rome finals against Nadal in 2006. Tennis history may have changed if he did not squander them. That was the nearest Federer was from beating Nadal in a clay Bo5 match.
 

Sudacafan

G.O.A.T.
Squandering MPs isn't the only sign of mental weakness and squandering MPs isn't mental weakness in some context.
I am not so sure if match points squandered are all about mental weakness, but I am sure that they are the most painful of the game, specially when they occur in a controlled and winnable match. Ask Coria about RG 2004 final.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Sometimes (half the time?) their on the opponents serve and the server still has more control on the point.
That's true, but how many times is it a winnable situation, but the ball not put back into play? Ripping it isn't always the way to go; even against the BIG 4! Sometimes you have to give your opponent a chance to make an error, but not putting a BP's back in play when possible is unforgiveable! Return of serve was my Achilles heal; something about the trajectory that made it difficult for me to wing it as a junior! I did everything possible to kick it back just to make the other kid play so I believe even when someone's serving, you can play it well enough to break even if a great server! I can't tell you how many times a close match is being viewed, but I knew the top player was going to come thru in the end because they know when to play it that way to finish off an opponent! Inexperience players are thinking more about losing than winning; comes with the territory! Novak was playing against Nadal in the USO '11 final and it was predictable that when it came down to the crunch at the end of the set he was going to break! It was also predictable he'd give it back and Nole would have to win that 3rd set in a TB! It happens so much to him; frequently allowing someone to get him into a TB he inevitable blows like AO '12, Wimbl. '14, and FO '16 up 2 breaks losing 1, all in the 4th sets! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
This is why i don't get it when people say Djokovic is weak mentally. Assuming these stats are correct, it is evident he is by far the most clutch and the mentally strongest amongst the Big 3.

It's also interesting to note that during their peak years, the Big 3 hardly wasted any MPs. Federer (2004-09) = 3 (2 of which were in ATG matches), Nadal (2007-13) = 1, Djokovic (2011-16) = 0.

It is clear with Federer as he got older, he squandered so many more MPs. None of them though, sting as much as that USO SF 2011!
Rome 2006 hurts the most
Its result reversion could have changed entire outlook and dimensions of fedal rivalry
 

Plamen1234

Hall of Fame
People say Nadal is so mentally strong but lets not forget AO 12 and AO 17 - he was leading with breaks in the last sets but lost both matches.And these matches were very significant especially the last one - if Nadal had won it he would have had the Slam record now.
 

Tshooter

Legend
Cincy is a warm-up event, but it's a Masters and it's well attended! I never got the impression a player just used it as such! It might be the case, but at Queens you didn't see the effort when things got tough! THE top player back then usually just allowed himself to be excused and it was obvious! Too many points in play for today's pros to allow that kind of attitude in Cincy! You see what happened to Nole back in 2016; won 2 Majors, finalist at USO, & won 4 Masters, but still wound up 2nd in the world for the season to Murray! It came down to one match at the YEC final that decided #1! If Nole had just attended one more tourney, he would have been immortalized for all time after completing his Nole-Slam! :rolleyes: :p ;)
Your English teacher played quite a trick on you by swapping the purpose and use of the period and the exclamation point ! :D
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
I am still in disbelief that Fed lost to Anderson from two sets and a match point up. Re: the Djokodal semi at Wimby the third set tie-breaker and 5th set break points that Rafa had felt like championship points at the time and it certainly turned out that that was the case if he took them.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
I am still in disbelief that Fed lost to Anderson from two sets and a match point up. Re: the Djokodal semi at Wimby the third set tie-breaker and 5th set break points that Rafa had felt like championship points at the time and it certainly turned out that that was the case if he took them.
A whole tournament has been proved to have come down to 1 point in a 2nd round match! It happens! With Fed, not sure how he can ever live those cons. USO SF down he lost to Nole with 2 MP's both times! Nadal took his 1st USO in '10 and Nole won his 1st the 2nd go round in '11! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 

chjtennis

G.O.A.T.
Fed competed against much younger legends during his post-peak. This stat only confirms how well Federer competed against younger guys, not just younger, but great, great younger players. Also, he is more likely to suffer more of these now that he is 37.
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
Federer has to lead this by a wide margin. Greatest player of all time but somehow can't manage to close out a match against a top rival. Oh well.
But isnt that like Cy Young? Most Wins but also most losses. Fed is the only one who played this much to even have a stat like this
 

citybert

Hall of Fame
People say Nadal is so mentally strong but lets not forget AO 12 and AO 17 - he was leading with breaks in the last sets but lost both matches.And these matches were very significant especially the last one - if Nadal had won it he would have had the Slam record now.
He was injured both those times but only when the critical point was wasted.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Federer has to lead this by a wide margin. Greatest player of all time but somehow can't manage to close out a match against a top rival. Oh well.
He's literally owned by 2 other players! No wonder us Fed fans are so insecure; his hold on GOAT-dom is so tenuous! Why else would he hang around 5 whole years after his Wimbl. win in 2012 to have lightning striking a bottle in 2017 to give him life; of course helped along by Nole and Murray hobbled and out! It's still a great accomplishment for him since Nadal had a real stranglehold on their supposed rivalry! I think there's supposed to be wins on both sides to call it that, but the media dreamed up FEDAL and the myth was born over 10 years ago! He better hope to win a couple more majors; Nadal or Djokovic might surprise us all and dominate for another 5 years! Federer will no doubt own many records for a generation or 2, but there will always be a little asterisks behind his name with all those accomplishments! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 

Terenigma

G.O.A.T.
Play to the speed of the server and it's not like Kyrgios immediately rushed to serve, he gave plenty of time and Nadal should of been ready. There is a time you need to stay under to avoid a warning, Nadal doesn't get to say "no no no" because he's not ready and needs another 50 years to pick his butt and sweep his hair. Nick even went up to the umpire and said "You can't do that, i'm sorry" and he shouldn't of apologise. Rafa's cheating gamesmanship has been unpunished for his entire career and he got away with another one here. Thankfully karma prevailed.
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
Play to the speed of the server and it's not like Kyrgios immediately rushed to serve, he gave plenty of time and Nadal should of been ready. There is a time you need to stay under to avoid a warning, Nadal doesn't get to say "no no no" because he's not ready and needs another 50 years to pick his butt and sweep his hair. Nick even went up to the umpire and said "You can't do that, i'm sorry" and he shouldn't of apologise. Rafa's cheating gamesmanship has been unpunished for his entire career and he got away with another one here. Thankfully karma prevailed.
Amen & hallelujah to that! It's hard to "hate" a kid, but Rafa was one I could easily dislike @ 16 yo with his stalling, toweling off, & challenging every call! (n)
 

lucky13

Rookie
very good data to check who is the most clutch among big4. if we think that clutch is to play best when it is as closest and most important then there are no more close matches than those where both players have MP. then it is literally 1 point that determines the winner. And what points can be so important to play well if not the MP in a close match.

so in 15 matches where both players had MP No1e won 12 of them (80%)
Muzza won 11 out of 16 (almost 69%)
Rafa, 13 out of 21 (almost 62%)
and Fed 18 out of 38 (slightly more than 47%)

If we look a little closer,

Nole has saved MP and won matches 4 times in slams (2 times against federer and once against tsonga and lopez respectively) and once in a master final (against marey). lost an atp500 final (against cilic).

Nadal lost an atp250 final against davydenko and won a masters final against federer.

Muzza won 3 (one in masters) and lost 2 finals (one against nole in masters) when both players had MP.

Federer lost MP big 5 times in slams and 2 times in masters finals and won in two slams despite MP against him.
 
Last edited:

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
If he completes another Nole-Slam taking FO in a few months, not sure how people can keep denying it! His H2H is superior, has a Golden Masters, a CGS, and has set records possibly out of reach of most players in the future! :unsure::cautious:;)
 
Last edited:

BGod

Legend
Federer's stats read very much like Brett Favre in the NFL. He has the most match points saved but also the most lost like Favre had with TDs and INTs.

The latest Nadal choke is pretty damn bad. Like I'd put it at level 10 on a 1-10 scale because of the following:

1. He had triple match point meaning 2 mulligans. In a lot of these situations the player who wasted opportunities had 1 at a time.
2. He loses 2 straight points on his serve including a double fault.
3. This comes in the same set he had triple break point on two occasions.

But given the stature of the match it just doesn't hold up. A quarterfinal at a 500 event is pretty low on the totem pole.

Federer's 2011 USO is still the greatest chokejob I've ever seen live. He had 2-0 lead and he had double match point on serve. That is going to be hard to top. His loss to Tsonga at Wimbledon up 2-0 is up there but never had match points let alone on serve. The most recent losses like to Delpo and Anderson aren't in the same zip code because of Fed's age.
 

lucky13

Rookie
Fed lacks a loss with MP in RG to complement lost MP in all 4 slams.
On the other hand, Nole needs to win an OZ with saved MP to complete winnings in all 4 slams.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes we know you don't like Federer OP, but you must update the positive stat for Federer.
 
Top