Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
That’s what we’ve been talking about.
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Match points saved and squandered by the Big Four
- Thread starter jm1980
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We are a sadomasochistic group. Welcome!
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I was able to find this report on the 2001 Novak match, and I'm now comfortable adding it to the list:
The 20-year-old Swiss held a match point at 5-4 and 40-30 in the third set against Novak but was passed going for a volley.
Finding anything about the 2002 Escude match is proving difficult, partially because it's overshadowed by the final they played in Rotterdam in 2001 (which Escude won), and by the 3 match points Escude saved in the semifinal against Grosjean. There are no mentions of a saved MP against Federer in the QF, even though he was already kind of a big deal then.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I think I finally cracked the mystery. The sources claiming Federer had a match point against Escude in their 2002 Rotterdam (from this table) match all trace back to Swiss journalists Simon Graf and Rene Stauffer. According to Graf (source), the match point came at 6-5 in the second set tiebreaker.
However, this is contradicted by all other independent sources:
On Friday, the 25-year-old trailed 3-5 in the second-set tiebreak before reeling off three straight points and holding on to knot the contest. (source)
Mené 5-3 dans le tie-break, il [Escude] a réussi un petit miracle pour égaliser à une manche partout. (source)
There were several mini breaks before Escude levelled the match by clinching the tiebreak 10-8 on his fourth set point. (source)
The facts here are:
1. Federer led 5-3 in the tiebreaker
2. Escude won 3 points in a row after that
3. Escude converted on his 4th set point
4. Tiebreaker ended 10-8
There is only one possible sequence of points that respects these conditions. If Federer had one match point at 6-5 (or at any score, really) this would contradict bullet points 2 and 3 (since Escude would have had a maximum of 3 set points)
The German version of the swissinfo.ch article on the match also claims Federer was two points away from winning (source):
Federer war in einer Neuauflage des letztjährigen Finals im Tiebreak des zweiten Satzes zwei Gewinnpunkte von einer gelungenen Revanche entfernt.
Unless some new evidence comes to light, it's safe to say Federer did NOT have a match point in this match.
-----------------
ADDENDUM: Could Escude have had additional set points prior to the breaker? Short answer: No.
Some more tidbits from the rediff article and the ATP stats for this match allow us to reconstruct more parts of the match:
Federer kept the unseeded Escude under constant pressure in the opening set, breaking in the fifth and ninth games with an array of scintillating returns.
However, this is contradicted by all other independent sources:
On Friday, the 25-year-old trailed 3-5 in the second-set tiebreak before reeling off three straight points and holding on to knot the contest. (source)
Mené 5-3 dans le tie-break, il [Escude] a réussi un petit miracle pour égaliser à une manche partout. (source)
There were several mini breaks before Escude levelled the match by clinching the tiebreak 10-8 on his fourth set point. (source)
The facts here are:
1. Federer led 5-3 in the tiebreaker
2. Escude won 3 points in a row after that
3. Escude converted on his 4th set point
4. Tiebreaker ended 10-8
There is only one possible sequence of points that respects these conditions. If Federer had one match point at 6-5 (or at any score, really) this would contradict bullet points 2 and 3 (since Escude would have had a maximum of 3 set points)
The German version of the swissinfo.ch article on the match also claims Federer was two points away from winning (source):
Federer war in einer Neuauflage des letztjährigen Finals im Tiebreak des zweiten Satzes zwei Gewinnpunkte von einer gelungenen Revanche entfernt.
Unless some new evidence comes to light, it's safe to say Federer did NOT have a match point in this match.
-----------------
ADDENDUM: Could Escude have had additional set points prior to the breaker? Short answer: No.
Some more tidbits from the rediff article and the ATP stats for this match allow us to reconstruct more parts of the match:
Federer kept the unseeded Escude under constant pressure in the opening set, breaking in the fifth and ninth games with an array of scintillating returns.
- Federer converted 2/6 break points
- Escude converted 1/4 break points
- Federer served first in the second set, and served second in the third set.
- There were no breaks of serve in the second set
- The only break of serve after the first set was Escude's break at 6-5* to win the match
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Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Thanks! What a relief!I think I finally cracked the mystery. The sources claiming Federer had a match point against Escude in their 2002 Rotterdam match all trace back to Simon Graf, a Swiss journalist. According to Simon himself (source), the match point came at 6-5 in the second set tiebreaker.
However, this is contradicted by all other independent sources:
On Friday, the 25-year-old trailed 3-5 in the second-set tiebreak before reeling off three straight points and holding on to knot the contest. (source)
Mené 5-3 dans le tie-break, il [Escude] a réussi un petit miracle pour égaliser à une manche partout. (source)
There were several mini breaks before Escude levelled the match by clinching the tiebreak 10-8 on his fourth set point. (source)
The facts are:
1. Federer led 5-3
2. Escude won 3 points in a row after that
3. Escude converted on his 4th set point
4. Tiebreaker ended 10-8
There is only one possible sequence of points that respects these conditions. Simon's version that Federer had one match point at 6-5 (or at any score, really) contradicts bullet points 2 and 3 (since Escude would have had a maximum of 3 set points)
The German version of the swissinfo.ch article on the match also claims Federer was two points away from winning (source):
Federer war in einer Neuauflage des letztjährigen Finals im Tiebreak des zweiten Satzes zwei Gewinnpunkte von einer gelungenen Revanche entfernt.
Unless some new evidence comes to light, it's safe to say Federer did NOT have a match point in this match.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Yup. Nadal saved a MP to win the final.
N01E
Hall of Fame
Yes, that's why I commented when both had MPs. It was quite difficult for that match not to appear here afterwards.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Netcordal lol.
Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Save #16 for Nadal with today's win over Shapo.
dapchai
Legend
He handed it to Shapo then took it back actually.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Yup. 16-8.
Fiero425
Legend
Tiafoe gave this match away to an old man who didn't do much but stay in points until the NG'r blew it with UFE or ambitious shot making! LOSER!
-snake-
Hall of Fame
Tiafoe gave this match away to an old man who didn't do much but stay in points until the NG'r blew it with UFE or ambitious shot making! LOSER!
Classic Next genMUG stuff.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Tiafoe gave this match away to an old man who didn't do much but stay in points until the NG'r blew it with UFE or ambitious shot making! LOSER!
Lol...didn't do much? Only took Tiafoe to THREE breakers and had leads in ALL of them at some point!!
Fiero425
Legend
Lol...didn't do much? Only took Tiafoe to THREE breakers and had leads in ALL of them at some point!!
Tiafoe was serving for 1st set w/ MP's and couldn't do it! It was a pathetic performance! Murray really didn't do anything special besides attack the net a couple times!
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Tiafoe was serving for 1st set w/ MP's and couldn't do it! It was a pathetic performance! Murray really didn't do anything special besides attack the net a couple times!
Andy was quite far from the net when he hit this one!
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Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Wow
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
Robredo:
Fiero425
Legend
Murray, Murray...
Poor thing had 7 Match Points and couldn't close on a "Lucky Loser," Dom Koepfer in Paris today! WHO? I think Murray's been playing too much, getting too many free passes into events! It should stop just to save the old fool from himself playing that ridiculous defensive style which got him put under the knife in the first place! What an idiot!
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Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
@jm1980 , please update general summary in first post of the thread.
With the 7 MP wasted in this match, Murray sets the Big Four record for the quantity of MP squandered in the same match, breaking the prior record of 5 MP jointly held by Federer, Nadal and himself.
Those 7 MP came in two different games: the first two MP when Koepfer served 4/5 15/40 in the third set, and 5 MP later in the tiebreaker.
Koepfer only needed his first MP to close the match. Final score Koepfer wins 6/4 5/7 7/6(11/9).
With the 7 MP wasted in this match, Murray sets the Big Four record for the quantity of MP squandered in the same match, breaking the prior record of 5 MP jointly held by Federer, Nadal and himself.
Those 7 MP came in two different games: the first two MP when Koepfer served 4/5 15/40 in the third set, and 5 MP later in the tiebreaker.
Koepfer only needed his first MP to close the match. Final score Koepfer wins 6/4 5/7 7/6(11/9).
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Fiero425
Legend
I just watched the 3rd set! I'm not sure, but I may have heard Murray was up a set and a break in the 2nd, but still allowed this to happen again!
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Nope, Murray had lost the first set of the match, and he was never a break up in the third set.I just watched the 3rd set! I'm not sure, but I may have heard Murray was up a set and a break in the 2nd, but still allowed this to happen again!
I corrected above where I said that Murray served for the match, it was actually Koepfer who was serving in those first 2 MP.
MUR 1-2 KOE | Andy Murray - Dominik Koepfer
www.flashscore.com
MUR 1-2 KOE | Andy Murray - Dominik Koepfer
www.flashscore.com
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Fiero425
Legend
Nope, Murray had lost the first set of the match, and he was never a break up in the third set.
I corrected above where I said that Murray served for the match, it was actually Koepfer who was serving in those first 2 MP.
MUR 1-2 KOE | Andy Murray - Dominik Koepfer
MUR 1-2 KOE | Andy Murray - Dominik Koepfer
I may have been thinking of the other Brit; Evans was up a set and a break allowig Bublik to come back and defeat him in 3 sets!
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
I just looked at the list in the first post of this thread, and Paris 2012Puts even 2012 Shanghai in the shade and I never ever thought that possible!!!
My first edit above also made me change the last paragraph.
Longest streak of time of not wasting MPs is actually Djokovic’s. There’s more than 9 years between Madrid 2009 and Queen’s 2018.
That’s a bit longer than Murray’s 9 years between Paris 2012 and Paris 2021, as both editions fell in the same week of the year.
(*), (**): edited
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BGod
G.O.A.T.
Unfreaking believable. Going to watch highlights now for sure.
N01E
Hall of Fame
That makes it even worse. Sometimes players get aced or have no play on the ball and end up in this thread. Here however, he was in a rally in every single match point:
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Very reminiscent of the Kyrgios-Gasquet match to me.
In this match Murray had two double MPs which begs the question why he didn't go aggressively on the first of those or even both of the 3rd & 4th. Statistically you have to take your odds. This reeks of Federer with his BP problems.
Dead Mosquito
Rookie
Fiero425
Legend
I hope he wasn't satisfied! He was just about eliminated on clay by someone like Goffin with no real weapons! Truly pathetic for someone with his ego!
_phantom
Hall of Fame
Great thread.
I think the list will be even more informative if you differentiate between double/triple MPs (consecutive) from 2/3 MPs.
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ADuck
Legend
This will probably be criticized as overhyping Alcaraz, but I think @jm1980 you should consider adding him to this list at some point. I know this thread is for big 4 right now, but the comparison will be inevitable at some point and it'd be good to continue this thread with an updated title instead of starting a new one. What do others think?
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
We should make other threads of this subject grouping the best 3 or 4 players born in each decade; this counts for the best born in the 80’s and should not have more players.
As nobody cares for the best 3 or 4 players born in the 90’s, we skip it.
Alcaraz could be included in a thread for players born in the 00’s. I think it’s too soon to start it now, and to say who could be grouped with him.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
There is some confusion over how many match points Djokovic saved in his match against Garcia Lopez in 2005 Wimbledon. They were then relatively unknown players, so it's unlikely we'll ever get to the bottom of it.
Tennis.com says he saved six MP:
Djokovic said the match reminded him of his Wimbledon second-round victory as a qualifier over Guillermo Garcia-Lopez in 2005, when he saved six match points to win in five sets.
Djokovic himself recalls being down 3 MP:
"It was a very difficult match but I remember I managed to come into the main draw of Wimbledon for the first time and I won against (Juan) Monaco, and second round I won against (Guillermo) Garcia-Lopez after being two sets down and three match points down and then I lost to (Sebastien) Grosjean in four sets.
There is also this article from the ATP (link here), where Garcia-Lopez recounts that match from his perspective, having wasted four MP:
Granted, this does not rule out additional match points beyond the four he recounted.
But it can explain why Djokovic said he was "three match points down"; at one point he was staring at 6-3, 6-3, 6-5 40-0 on his opponent's serve.
Tennis.com says he saved six MP:
Djokovic said the match reminded him of his Wimbledon second-round victory as a qualifier over Guillermo Garcia-Lopez in 2005, when he saved six match points to win in five sets.
Djokovic himself recalls being down 3 MP:
"It was a very difficult match but I remember I managed to come into the main draw of Wimbledon for the first time and I won against (Juan) Monaco, and second round I won against (Guillermo) Garcia-Lopez after being two sets down and three match points down and then I lost to (Sebastien) Grosjean in four sets.
There is also this article from the ATP (link here), where Garcia-Lopez recounts that match from his perspective, having wasted four MP:
ATP said:
Granted, this does not rule out additional match points beyond the four he recounted.
But it can explain why Djokovic said he was "three match points down"; at one point he was staring at 6-3, 6-3, 6-5 40-0 on his opponent's serve.
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Fiero425
Legend
Korda was tough! He made Novak work for this one going over 3 hours! He got his workout; that's for sure! He'll be fresh for Aussie Open w/ a week off! Djokovic's 92 titles!
Krish872007
Talk Tennis Guru
How does he keep doing this time and time again? Incroyable
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
That's gotta be an all time record, not just among the Big 3. The difference is insane. Federer is 24-22 or something like that, right?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
It's 48 match points saved in 16 matches, to 7 MP wasted in 3 matches
So 16-3 to Fed's 24-22
Chanwan
G.O.A.T.
Ah, that makes more sense. 48 sounded off but I didn't think
volleynets
Hall of Fame
You said fed saved 7 against Scott Draper in this post. Who is that?? That’s supposed to say Tennys Sandgren right?
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