Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Federer, Cincinnati final, 2018

[Waspsting]

Novak Djokovic beat Roger Federer 6-4, 6-4 in the Cincinnati final, 2018 on hard court

It was recent Wimbledon winner Djokovic's first title at Cincinnati and he became the first - and to date, only - player to have won all 9 Masters 1000 events. Federer was a 7 time former champion, having beaten Djokovic in 3 previous finals in '09, '12 and '15

Djokovic won 71 points, Federer 59

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (35/53) 66%
- 1st serve points won (25/35) 71%
- 2nd serve points won (14/18) 78%
- Aces 4
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (25/53) 47%

Federer...
- 1st serve percentage (46/77) 60%
- 1st serve points won (31/46) 67%
- 2nd serve points won (14/31) 45%
- Aces 11 (1 second serve)
- Double Faults 4
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (25/77) 32%

Serve Pattern
Djokovic served...
- to FH 39%
- to BH 55%
- to Body 6%

Federer served...
- to FH 45%
- to BH 53%
- to Body 1%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 48 (21 FH, 27 BH)
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 14 Errors, comprising...
- 2 Unforced (1 FH, 1 BH)
- 12 Forced (7 FH, 5 BH)
- Return Rate (48/73) 66%

Federer made...
- 26 (8 FH, 18 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 1 Winner (1 FH), a runaround FH
- 21 Errors, comprising...
- 13 Unforced (6 FH, 7 BH)
- 8 Forced (5 FH, 3 BH)
- Return Rate (26/51) 51%

Break Points
Djokovic 3/6 (4 games)
Federer 1/1

Winners (including returns, excluding aces)
Djokovic 8 (5 FH, 2 BH, 1 OH)
Federer 11 (3 FH, 2 BH, 1 FHV, 2 BHV, 3 OH)

Djokovic's FHs - 2 cc (1 return, 1 not clean - a Federer whiff), 1 dtl/inside-out pass, 1 inside-in and 1 inside-in/longline
- BHs - 1 dtl and 1 dtl/inside-out

- the OH was on the bounce, hit slightly behind service line but counted a net point

Federer's FHs - 1 dtl, 1 inside-out and 1 runaround inside-in return
- BHs - 1 cc and 1 dtl

- 1 from a serve-volley point - a first volley FHV
- 1 OH was on the bounce

Errors (excluding returns and serves)
Djokovic 21
- 12 Unforced (4 FH, 8 BH)
- 9 Forced (3 FH, 6 BH)
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 44.2

Federer 34
- 27 Unforced (16 FH, 8 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 7 Forced (2 FH, 2 BH, 1 FH1/2V, 2 BHV)
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 48.9

(Note 1: all half-volleys refer to such shots played at net. Half -volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke counts)

(Note 2: The 'Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is a measure of how aggressive of intent the average UE made was. 60 is maximum, 20 is minimum. This match has been scored using a four point scale - 2 defensive, 4 neutral, 5 attacking, 6 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was 1/1 at net

Federer was...
- 18/28 (64%) at net, including...
- 10/15 (67%) serve-volleying, comprising..
- 9/12 (75%) off 1st serve and...
- 1/3 (33%) off 2nd serve
--
- 0/2 forced back

Match Report
Historic for Djokovic completing the "Golden Masters", but a grey and forgettable match of action. It would be stretching it a bit to describe Djokovic's performance as anything above 'adequate'. That's not his fault - Federer's very poor showing puts a very low ceiling on what Djoko could possibly do beyond adequate

Standout stats are Djoko winning 78% second serve points, having 47% unreturned serves and Federer with 27 unforced errors in play. Even the former two are due to Fed being poor

Serve & Return
What's going on with Djoko having 47% unreturned serves? Fed returning awfully

Federer misses 11/16 second serve returns (Djoko also double faults twice). That's horrendous. 2 of his errors have been marked forced error, which is rare for Djokovic's second serve. Its a fast court (though not even close to being fast enough to justify 47% unreturned serves) and Djoko sends down a decent second serve in that it isn't easy to attack. But its not a weapon mostly. Just very, very poor returning from Federer

Fed also misses 10 first serve returns (other than aces), and 4 have been marked UEs. Djoko's serving is complete potpourri - some strong second serves, some weak first ones - generally, his first serves aren't placed wide or particularly powerful. Plenty of regulation returns to make - only Fed can't make 'em. Among the 8 return FEs is a good lot of 'makeable' returns also

Note Djoko with just 4 aces (Fed has 11) and 3 of them are in one game where he cranked up the serve. Otherwise, his serving is above average at best. Fed's returning horrendously accounts for the rest. He's not even being aggressive with the returns he misses - just misses them playing orthodoxly

On flip side, Fed serves tremendously and Djoko returns the same. Fed hits his spots even with second serves and has 11 aces. Its fair to say he's serve-botting. 23/46 first serves goes unreturned which means he wins 8/23 when the first serve comes back.

Djoko isn't able to do much damage with the return, but is very good at poking wide serves back in play. Even gets decent depth on them a minority of the time

According to commentary, Fed hadn't lost serve in Cincy since 2014 (he'd missed 2016 and 2017) and reaches 100 straight holds before he's broken here

Play - Baseline & Net
The back-drop of play is large unreturned serves (Djoko getting more) and thus, comfortable to easy holds. Action is below par - poor from Federer, adequate to above average at best from Djokovic

Fed wins just 8/23 off his first serve points that are returned... and the returns are often weak, putting him in good position to start the rally

Neutrally, both players look to play from behind the baseline, making for fairly conservative rallies, especially for a fast court. Neither are particularly consistent neutrally - Djoko has 9 UEs from such shots, Fed 11. Putting that in perspective, Djoko has 8 winners, Fed 11

Fed looks for attacking shots out of regulation positions... and falls flat. He has 16 attacking/winner attempt UEs, Djoko just 3. Some good defending by Djoko against the attacking shots that land in. He's not particularly quick but is able to stretch and hit balls back near firmly from defensive positions. Federer is rarely on the defensive - he loses points before the situation comes up

Good idea for Fed to come to net regularly. Its something he does from the get go, even serve-volleying off a second serve in the opening game. The solid 64% net points won is a bit flattering. Good chunk of it is unreturned serves, which likely would have gone unreturned sans serve-volleying

Coming in from rallying, he wins 8/13. Couple of brave, pressuring dashes to net that pay off, but rarely can he outplay Djoko to come in off strong approach. Hence, possibility of coming in more doesn't really come up... if he had, they'd have had been high-risk dashes from neutral positions. Not the sort of thing he does much of in general and not likely to have ended well against Djokovic

On the volley, he doesn't miss much - just 3 UEs - but also doesn't place volleys away from Djokovic or punch them through. In general, Fed doesn't punch his volleys through too well and is at his best playing controlled drop volleys, which he doesn't do here at all

Good numbers for Djokovic on the FH, on which he finishes with match-high 5 winners and match-low 4 UEs. Federer's 16 FH UEs is about double both put together. That's action in a nutshell... Fed's poor play overshadowing whatever Djoko's doing

Match Progression
Fed holds a 12 point game to start, saving two break points on the way. He misses 3 winner attempts (a FH, a BH and a BHV), but 5 unreturned serves - including 3 aces - sees him through

Break comes in game 7. Missing a regulation first FHV off a serve-volley point and double faulting gives Djoko break point. On it, Fed takes charge after a strong serve Djoko does well to get back and runs Djoko side to side. Djoko hits a decent FH cc on the run but he's out of position and the court is open... and Fed whiffs his attempted FH (he gets the lightest of touches). Odd point. Djoko goes onto hold easily to close out the set

Fed breaks to move ahead 2-0 in the second set. 40-15 down, he draws 2 passing errors with quick dashes to net. From deuce, Djoko misses an attempted third ball FH inside-in winner and double faults.

Fed's in twinkle toed mode next game, and forces action. Still gets broken and still misses third ball FH winner attempts to begin and start the game and the penultimate point is a double fault also. In between, Djoko does some good defending, hits a meaty pass that forces a reflex volley error and does well to get strong returns in play

Djoko's given a warning for time violation at beginning of next game, which follows a changeover. He appears normal paced on the point in question. Umpire explains that he starts the clock when he calls time on the changeover, in other words, when both players stand up to restart action rather than when they're at the baseline preparing for first point

Djoko breaks again in game 8 in a 12 point game. This is one of the better of the match - Fed still makes UEs, but he's at net 6 times and action is forceful. Djoko gains his only break point of the game after a double fault and hits a perfect FH dtl/inside-out pass on it

Summing up, good returning from Djokovic against terrific Federer is the highlight of the match. Djoko also defends ably at times and Fed is smart to attack net regularly. Bulk of action though is ordinary to poor - Federer's returning in particular is abysmal and his groundgame loose. Djoko's groundgame is nondescript - which is all that's needed

- Stats for '09 final - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rer-vs-djokovic-cincinnati-final-2009.648275/
- Stats for '12 final - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rer-vs-djokovic-cincinnati-final-2012.608895/

 

[Third Serve]

I have painful memories of that match. One of the worst matches Federer’s ever played against Djokovic. Probably the worst.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Federer at his lowest.
I regret waking up at night to watch the match

 

[Breakpointerer]

I have painful memories of that match. One of the worst matches Federer’s ever played against Djokovic. Probably the worst.

Federer at his lowest.
I regret waking up at night to watch the match

Well on the bright side
100% BP conversion

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

A very insipid match indeed.

 

[junior74]

Returnerer...

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

Isn't it a weird coincidence that all the finals they played were 3 years apart?

9-12-15-18

Djok vs Fed 2021 Cincy final confirmed

 

[Hitman]

Great memories.

 

[Waspsting]

... One of the worst matches Federer’s ever played against Djokovic. Probably the worst.

Its down there for sure

Dubai '11 right there with it - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-final-dubai-final-2011.655340/#post-13807043
At least he comes to net smartly here

And Miami '09 of course - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ovic-vs-federer-miami-semi-final-2009.650137/
thought that has a good first set, the ending is almost comedy

"Then the horror show starts - initially, both players are active parties in it - and it doesn't stop til the end (by which time its just Federer flying the flag)

Their are 28 unforced errors (Fed 17, Djoko 11) in the last 41 points of the set (including double faults and return errors).

Djokovic wins 7 games in a row. At a stretch, he wins 28/35 points... 23 of them due to Federer's unforced errors (16 of them FHs)…. its astonishingly poor tennis"

 

[Third Serve]

Its down there for sure

Dubai '11 right there with it - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-final-dubai-final-2011.655340/#post-13807043
At least he comes to net smartly here

And Miami '09 of course - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ovic-vs-federer-miami-semi-final-2009.650137/
thought that has a good first set, the ending is almost comedy

"Then the horror show starts - initially, both players are active parties in it - and it doesn't stop til the end (by which time its just Federer flying the flag)

Their are 28 unforced errors (Fed 17, Djoko 11) in the last 41 points of the set (including double faults and return errors).

Djokovic wins 7 games in a row. At a stretch, he wins 28/35 points... 23 of them due to Federer's unforced errors (16 of them FHs)…. its astonishingly poor tennis"

As much talk as I’ve heard about the Miami match, I’ve never actually seen it. Perhaps it’s for the better, heh heh.

 

[Breakpointerer]

As much talk as I’ve heard about the Miami match, I’ve never actually seen it. Perhaps it’s for the better, heh heh.

Yup, definitely for the better.

 

[Lew II]

Federer had the ''what the hell he's back '' attitude.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Federer had the ''what the hell he's back '' attitude.

The ultimate arrogance of thinking Federer's struggles had everything to do with Djokovic coming out of his slump *facepalm*

 

[TheAssassin]

Ugliest match from Fed that I can recall recently. That and the London match against Nishikori later in the same year. Wasn't he broken from 40-0 up in both sets? Most surprising smooth sailing for Djokovic after all the tight matches he had that week in the previous rounds. But a well earned title after those wins and many previous runs to Cincy finals.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Its down there for sure

Dubai '11 right there with it - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-final-dubai-final-2011.655340/#post-13807043
At least he comes to net smartly here

And Miami '09 of course - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ovic-vs-federer-miami-semi-final-2009.650137/
thought that has a good first set, the ending is almost comedy

"Then the horror show starts - initially, both players are active parties in it - and it doesn't stop til the end (by which time its just Federer flying the flag)

Their are 28 unforced errors (Fed 17, Djoko 11) in the last 41 points of the set (including double faults and return errors).

Djokovic wins 7 games in a row. At a stretch, he wins 28/35 points... 23 of them due to Federer's unforced errors (16 of them FHs)…. its astonishingly poor tennis"

Yeah, I distinctly remember how bad this match was. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like the Federer/Djokovic rivalry, while still great, definitely delivered least of the big 3 rivalries. Even if we look at what are widely considered the best matches of the rivalry (USO2011, Wimbledon 2014, Wimbledon 2019), none of them crack many top 20 matches all-time lists except for Wimbledon 2019 which is easily one of the worst quality matches for how highly rated it is.

I'm not sure I could even pick the best match of their rivalry... RG2011 probably? Maybe US Open 2015. Still great matches, but they don't compare to some of their best vs Rafa. I wonder if it's because the game plan to beating Rafa is so clear, and the counter plan for Rafa is very clear, so it comes down to who executes at a higher level and that ends up being very fun to watch for us. Also due to the physicality of a Nadal matchup, maybe. Whereas in Federer vs Djokovic, they're both extremely complete players and somewhat similar in surface preferences that there is no clear game plan for either to follow, leading to a lot of nerves and moments where they run out of options.

 

[objection_]

Yeah, I distinctly remember how bad this match was. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like the Federer/Djokovic rivalry, while still great, definitely delivered least of the big 3 rivalries. Even if we look at what are widely considered the best matches of the rivalry (USO2011, Wimbledon 2014, Wimbledon 2019), none of them crack many top 20 matches all-time lists except for Wimbledon 2019 which is easily one of the worst quality matches for how highly rated it is.

I'm not sure I could even pick the best match of their rivalry... RG2011 probably? Maybe US Open 2015. Still great matches, but they don't compare to some of their best vs Rafa. I wonder if it's because the game plan to beating Rafa is so clear, and the counter plan for Rafa is very clear, so it comes down to who executes at a higher level and that ends up being very fun to watch for us. Also due to the physicality of a Nadal matchup, maybe. Whereas in Federer vs Djokovic, they're both extremely complete players and somewhat similar in surface preferences that there is no clear game plan for either to follow, leading to a lot of nerves and moments where they run out of options.

On paper it probably should have been the highest quality but they never really faced each other in their primes simultaneously. You've got a good point about the defining matches, djokdal and fedal have 3-4 all time greatest matches each.

 

[Pheasant]

Federer was in horrendous form coming into the match. It’s one of the odd matches that I wished I hadn’t watched. A washed up Wawrinka had that semi on his racket, but choked it away against a horrendous Fed. Heck, even an injured Goffin pushed Fed to a tiebreak before retiring in that match.

Waspting’s one stat says it all. Fed won 8/23 first serves that were returned. That right there tells us all that we need to know about this match n

 

[7thKingSlam]

On paper it probably should have been the highest quality but they never really faced each other in their primes simultaneously. You've got a good point about the defining matches, djokdal and fedal have 3-4 all time greatest matches each.

Age is a factor as well for sure, but they both had great longevity. And anyways, Nadal is 5 years younger than Federer.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Federer was in horrendous form coming into the match. It’s one of the odd matches that I wished I hadn’t watched. A washed up Wawrinka had that semi on his racket, but choked it away against a horrendous Fed. Heck, even an injured Goffin pushed Fed to a tiebreak before retiring in that match.

Waspting’s one stat says it all. Fed won 8/23 first serves that were returned. That right there tells us all that we need to know about this match n

Djokovic was also quite poor that tournament. Went three sets 4 times in a row vs Mannarino, Dimitrov, Raonic, and Cilic. Not a bad lineup of players but damn, 12 sets in 4 matches. I also remember his second serve in particular being ugly, like nervous 75-80 mph bad. I might be off though since according to the above analysis by Waspsting, he seemed to hit it fine in the final. Granted, not well enough to excuse Federer's horrendous return performance.

 

[objection_]

Djokovic was also quite poor that tournament. Went three sets 4 times in a row vs Mannarino, Dimitrov, Raonic, and Cilic. Not a bad lineup of players but damn, 12 sets in 4 matches. I also remember his second serve in particular being ugly, like nervous 75-80 mph bad. I might be off though since according to the above analysis by Waspsting, he seemed to hit it fine in the final. Granted, not well enough to excuse Federer's horrendous return performance.

In all fairness, Fed had just recovered from a hand injury suffered in the grass season and his FH hadn't really recovered until Dubai 2019. Djoko was upset by a young Tpas in Toronto and didn't have the toughest draw to take the subsequent US open title.

 

[Biotic]

Even if we look at what are widely considered the best matches of the rivalry (USO2011, Wimbledon 2014, Wimbledon 2019),

 

[jl809]

Yeah, I distinctly remember how bad this match was. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like the Federer/Djokovic rivalry, while still great, definitely delivered least of the big 3 rivalries. Even if we look at what are widely considered the best matches of the rivalry (USO2011, Wimbledon 2014, Wimbledon 2019), none of them crack many top 20 matches all-time lists except for Wimbledon 2019 which is easily one of the worst quality matches for how highly rated it is.

I'm not sure I could even pick the best match of their rivalry... RG2011 probably? Maybe US Open 2015. Still great matches, but they don't compare to some of their best vs Rafa. I wonder if it's because the game plan to beating Rafa is so clear, and the counter plan for Rafa is very clear, so it comes down to who executes at a higher level and that ends up being very fun to watch for us. Also due to the physicality of a Nadal matchup, maybe. Whereas in Federer vs Djokovic, they're both extremely complete players and somewhat similar in surface preferences that there is no clear game plan for either to follow, leading to a lot of nerves and moments where they run out of options.

Those 2 you mention are the most rewatchable for me. 2015 USO is my favourite for the context, it’s peak Djoker on one side with his ironclad depth and defence, up against the entire crowd, and on the other aside it’s Federer knowing he didn’t have the consistency or movement anymore to do grinding so instead risking it all on an insanely offensive game which he had the talent to almost pull off

But yes for actual classics, it’s probably just the two 2011 matches that have the classic aspect AND the high quality too. Whereas Fedal have 4 Bo5 matches like that across all 3 surfaces (Rome 6, Wim 7, Wim 8, AO 9), and Djokodal have 3 across all 3 surfaces (AO, RG, Wim) not to mention giving us possibly the greatest set of all time at the USO 11 too

 

[7thKingSlam]

In all fairness, Fed had just recovered from a hand injury suffered in the grass season and his FH hadn't really recovered until Dubai 2019. Djoko was upset by a young Tpas in Toronto and didn't have the toughest draw to take the subsequent US open title.

Fed was decent indoors that year but yeah, definitely his 2018 fell off in the second half. Agreed on Djokovic, although his performance in the USO final vs Delpo was very good but given a tougher draw he might've lost early there. Like Thiem in that QF vs Nadal lol.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Hey man, I'm on your side here. Absolutely don't think Wimbledon 2019 should even be considered top 5 in the rivalry but I'd be willing to bet a large portion of fans would list it as a top 10 match of the decade, hell, some might put it #1.
On second thought maybe not 1 but I could see some fans unironically putting it like top 3.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Those 2 you mention are the most rewatchable for me. 2015 USO is my favourite for the context, it’s peak Djoker on one side with his ironclad depth and defence, up against the entire crowd, and on the other aside it’s Federer knowing he didn’t have the consistency or movement anymore to do grinding so instead risking it all on an insanely offensive game which he had the talent to almost pull off

But yes for actual classics, it’s probably just the two 2011 matches that have the classic aspect AND the high quality too. Whereas Fedal have 4 Bo5 matches like that across all 3 surfaces (Rome 6, Wim 7, Wim 8, AO 9), and Djokodal have 3 across all 3 surfaces (AO, RG, Wim) not to mention giving us possibly the greatest set of all time at the USO 11 too

It's been a minute since I've done a full rewatch of USO2011. I remember it being good but maybe losing some of its luster because of the way Federer collapsed after that 40-15 return. Felt like his resistance just went away after that, and maybe it left a lasting impression of the match as a whole for me. I should give it another look because the first 4 sets may well have been awesome quality. I truly wonder what happens if Federer and Djokovic meet at Wimbledon 2011. Although the bigger "what if" is still RG2011 Djokovic vs Nadal in the final.

Yeah and the crazy thing is, those 7 matches you listed of Federer vs Nadal and Djokovic vs Nadal could arguably all be ranked as better matches than any of the Federer vs Djokovic rivalry. Like Wimbledon 2008, AO2012, Wimbledon 2018, Rome 2006, RG2013 are locks over USO2011 imo, and then AO2009 and Wimbledon 2007 might be debatable due to their 5th sets. First 4 sets of those two were as good as it gets though.

 

[Waspsting]

I'm not sure I could even pick the best match of their rivalry... RG2011 probably? Maybe US Open 2015. Still great matches, but they don't compare to some of their best vs Rafa

I think the reason Nadal's matches tend to be the best of relates to style of play, in particular, his style leading to attacker-defender dynamic more than the other two (especially Djokovic)

Fed and Djoko fight it out for command of rallies, neither taking a step back. Lot of ball-bashing involved (hard hitting play, not going aggressively wide). Its good tennis, its not very exciting
Whoever gets better of that tends to win
If Fed is little more proactive and actively looks for wide shot to get on attack, Djoko's tends to neutralize it from defensive position, and its back to ball-bashing for control
And as a slugfest, its not very competitive, with Fed in particular prone to giving up errors. If not easily, I've never looked at Fed and thought getting basic ground errors out of him is like pulling teeth (as opposed to Nadal and to lesser degree, Djoko)
And you get the occasional serve-botty match

Nadal? For starters, almost no serve-botty matches. His serve isn't goood enough to get ton of freebies, and he's the most secure of returners to keep Fed in particular from scoring that way

Off the ground, high consistency + high net clearance = short ball now and then, which Fed particularly attacks wide
The high consistency keeps matches out of sloppy territory (Fed by contrast can be sloppy sometimes)
And Nadal's ok falling back to defend... and then you have these brilliant rallies, one guy attacking, the other defending, ending with memorable, high end winners. The stuff of great matches

As opposed to 2 guys ball-bashing for control of rally and giving up errors. Not the stuff of great matches

Also, Djoko-Nadal matches can reach very high standard of toughness - long rallies, neither player giving an inch. A different kind of great match than pure attack-defend dynamics. '12 Aus being best example. Fed's too loose with ground errors to have matches like that

The '11 US Open semi stands out to me as the best of Fed-Djoko. Quite a few interesting ones in there, but not many that have wowed me
'12 YEC final is another good one

 

[Angrybirdstar]

I wonder if it's because the game plan to beating Rafa is so clear, and the counter plan for Rafa is very clear, so it comes down to who executes at a higher level and that ends up being very fun to watch for us. Also due to the physicality of a Nadal matchup, maybe. Whereas in Federer vs Djokovic, they're both extremely complete players and somewhat similar in surface preferences that there is no clear game plan for either to follow, leading to a lot of nerves and moments where they run out of options.

i agree with your analysis of the game plans and execution in the Nadal matchups, but i tend to think the exact opposite about the resulting entertainment value - those kinds of matches are good exactly once and then immediately became incredibly stale. i think a lot about the Wilander-Lendl USO '88 match and some others from around that time period, where there was much more all-court play and difficult strategic decisions to be made, resulting in a constant sense of tension and allowing an incredible amount of spontaneity and creativity

As opposed to 2 guys ball-bashing for control of rally and giving up errors. Not the stuff of great matches

as a counterpoint, i would think a fair number of Agassi matches had some great ballbashy rallying (as opposed to more open court rallying with a greater shotmaking focus), where neither player was particularly error prone

 

[7thKingSlam]

I think the reason Nadal's matches tend to be the best of relates to style of play, in particular, his style leading to attacker-defender dynamic more than the other two (especially Djokovic)

Fed and Djoko fight it out for command of rallies, neither taking a step back. Lot of ball-bashing involved (hard hitting play, not going aggressively wide). Its good tennis, its not very exciting
Whoever gets better of that tends to win
If Fed is little more proactive and actively looks for wide shot to get on attack, Djoko's tends to neutralize it from defensive position, and its back to ball-bashing for control
And as a slugfest, its not very competitive, with Fed in particular prone to giving up errors. If not easily, I've never looked at Fed and thought getting basic ground errors out of him is like pulling teeth (as opposed to Nadal and to lesser degree, Djoko)
And you get the occasional serve-botty match

Nadal? For starters, almost no serve-botty matches. His serve isn't goood enough to get ton of freebies, and he's the most secure of returners to keep Fed in particular from scoring that way

Off the ground, high consistency + high net clearance = short ball now and then, which Fed particularly attacks wide
The high consistency keeps matches out of sloppy territory (Fed by contrast can be sloppy sometimes)
And Nadal's ok falling back to defend... and then you have these brilliant rallies, one guy attacking, the other defending, ending with memorable, high end winners. The stuff of great matches

As opposed to 2 guys ball-bashing for control of rally and giving up errors. Not the stuff of great matches

Also, Djoko-Nadal matches can reach very high standard of toughness - long rallies, neither player giving an inch. A different kind of great match than pure attack-defend dynamics. '12 Aus being best example. Fed's too loose with ground errors to have matches like that

The '11 US Open semi stands out to me as the best of Fed-Djoko. Quite a few interesting ones in there, but not many that have wowed me
'12 YEC final is another good one

Yeah that's very true. I've found people saying Federer/Djokovic was a "tactical battle," while Djokovic/Nadal was a "physical battle," but idk. I feel like Federer and Djokovic's tactics are kinda just "I will not move back no matter what." There is variation of course in which ground stroke they choose to go after and some adjustments, though. I would call it more of a "positioning battle."

I also think the angles probably play in. When there are angles, there's more opportunities for flashy moments like on-the-run defensive counterattacks into open court, winners that seem to come out of nowhere, side-to-side rallying. Nadal is awesome at creating angle with his spin, and obviously amazing at hitting counterattacks/passing shots into the open court. Lots of clay matches between Nadal and Djokovic come to mind in this regard. Down the middle ball-bashing does not create angles.

You're right about serve dominance. Underrated part about Nadal's entertainment value is how little he gets from the serve. Djokovic/Federer Wimbledon 2014+2015 probably don't quite get as much love as the quality would indicate because both were so efficient on serve. Nadal has matches like AO2009 final where the serving was poor on both ends, but the baseline play was spectacular so fans love it.

I'd need to review the 2012 YEC match. Relatively short too so I can give a good rewatch

 

[7thKingSlam]

i agree with your analysis of the game plans and execution in the Nadal matchups, but i tend to think the exact opposite about the resulting entertainment value - those kinds of matches are good exactly once and then immediately became incredibly stale. i think a lot about the Wilander-Lendl USO '88 match and some others from around that time period, where there was much more all-court play and difficult strategic decisions to be made, resulting in a constant sense of tension and allowing an incredible amount of spontaneity and creativity

as a counterpoint, i would think a fair number of Agassi matches had some great ballbashy rallying (as opposed to more open court rallying with a greater shotmaking focus), where neither player was particularly error prone

Interesting. Different preferences I suppose. I do find Federer and Djokovic taking the ball so early on the baseline aesthetically pleasing, but there is less general "magic" imo, and that's by design. Djokovic purposely shuts Federer down by giving him no angles to work with and suffocating him with depth.

 

[Waspsting]

i agree with your analysis of the game plans and execution in the Nadal matchups, but i tend to think the exact opposite about the resulting entertainment value - those kinds of matches are good exactly once and then immediately became incredibly stale. i think a lot about the Wilander-Lendl USO '88 match and some others from around that time period, where there was much more all-court play and difficult strategic decisions to be made, resulting in a constant sense of tension and allowing an incredible amount of spontaneity and creativity

What are some of your favourite matches?

as a counterpoint, i would think a fair number of Agassi matches had some great ballbashy rallying (as opposed to more open court rallying with a greater shotmaking focus), where neither player was particularly error prone

Probably, but you know, I don't know for sure

Bulk of fun Agassi matches I've stattted are against net players
He started his career a brilliant, attacking shot-maker
Had a brutal, beat-down power hitting-through opponent phase. Have you seen the '96 Olympics final with Bruguera? That's best example of exactly what I mean by 'beat-down' play and most in line with what I understand to be 'great ballbashy (play)' - its not competitive, but someone hitting back in kind from the other end would make it a great contest
Settled into a clinical, percentage baseliner at the end

Chang would be a good anvil to have the kind of match you describe, or Courier though that's more likely to get lively (both for the players and for the period where they had their matches)
Pity Agassi and Djokovic never got to duke it out, potential there for some interesting matches

 

[tudwell]

I feel like when Federer and Djokovic played, you had Fed's biggest strength – his serve – going directly at (arguably, for most of his career) Djokovic's greatest strength – his return. There's a kind of alpha-dog wrestling for dominance. Who can execute their strength just a little bit better than their opponent? Sometimes Fed would simply zone on serve and it wouldn't matter how great Novak's return was. Other times Novak's return shut down even a very-well-serving Federer. And there's a somewhat similar quality to the rallies – both guys refusing to step back, taking the ball early, trying to outmuscle one another with hard, closed-court ball-bashing.

With Federer against Nadal, you had strength against weakness (especially Nadal's forehand into Federer's backhand). It's not just about who can execute their strength better but also who can hide their weaknesses better. It creates scrappier matches with more back-and-forth in the rallies, more varied tactics to get out of unfavorable positions, etc. I love both rivalries for how different they are, while still being utterly electrifying (although I do think Fedovic matches were maybe a bit more reliable than Fedal matches; plenty of the latter turned out to be duds, usually Nadal trampling all over Federer, while the former were usually pretty competitive, even when one guy was clearly superior on the day).

 

[nolefam_2024]

I feel like when Federer and Djokovic played, you had Fed's biggest strength – his serve – going directly at (arguably, for most of his career) Djokovic's greatest strength – his return. There's a kind of alpha-dog wrestling for dominance. Who can execute their strength just a little bit better than their opponent? Sometimes Fed would simply zone on serve and it wouldn't matter how great Novak's return was. Other times Novak's return shut down even a very-well-serving Federer. And there's a somewhat similar quality to the rallies – both guys refusing to step back, taking the ball early, trying to outmuscle one another with hard, closed-court ball-bashing.

With Federer against Nadal, you had strength against weakness (especially Nadal's forehand into Federer's backhand). It's not just about who can execute their strength better but also who can hide their weaknesses better. It creates scrappier matches with more back-and-forth in the rallies, more varied tactics to get out of unfavorable positions, etc. I love both rivalries for how different they are, while still being utterly electrifying (although I do think Fedovic matches were maybe a bit more reliable than Fedal matches; plenty of the latter turned out to be duds, usually Nadal trampling all over Federer, while the former were usually pretty competitive, even when one guy was clearly superior on the day).

I straight up like Fedkovic more than Fedal.

Fedal is more forehand bonanza but it is too much dependent on Federer hiding his backhand weakness and seems unfair fight to me.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

What are some of your favourite matches?

mostly Alcaraz matches vs Djokovic, Paul, Evans, and Kecmanovic (the Sinner matches are just frustrating regardless of the result). i haven't really watched many full matches so wouldn't really list any older ones immediately

 

[7thKingSlam]

I feel like when Federer and Djokovic played, you had Fed's biggest strength – his serve – going directly at (arguably, for most of his career) Djokovic's greatest strength – his return. There's a kind of alpha-dog wrestling for dominance. Who can execute their strength just a little bit better than their opponent? Sometimes Fed would simply zone on serve and it wouldn't matter how great Novak's return was. Other times Novak's return shut down even a very-well-serving Federer. And there's a somewhat similar quality to the rallies – both guys refusing to step back, taking the ball early, trying to outmuscle one another with hard, closed-court ball-bashing.

With Federer against Nadal, you had strength against weakness (especially Nadal's forehand into Federer's backhand). It's not just about who can execute their strength better but also who can hide their weaknesses better. It creates scrappier matches with more back-and-forth in the rallies, more varied tactics to get out of unfavorable positions, etc. I love both rivalries for how different they are, while still being utterly electrifying (although I do think Fedovic matches were maybe a bit more reliable than Fedal matches; plenty of the latter turned out to be duds, usually Nadal trampling all over Federer, while the former were usually pretty competitive, even when one guy was clearly superior on the day).

That first paragraph is a great way to put it, yeah. Two guys wrestling for control in the same ways. Fed serve vs Djokovic return, which is a very important battle but also not a battle that many fans (including myself) find very entertaining. The great baseline rallies tend to elevate matches particularly in this post-serve/volley era. This same kind of logic applies to the rallies where both are trying to do roughly the same thing.

I got to watch the full 2012 YEC match between the two the other day. Great match, very entertaining, and I especially liked seeing how their best highlights tended to come on the biggest points, (Federer’s volley + tough forehand down set point 5-6 in the 1st set tiebreak, Djokovic full stretch BH pass on match point). Djokovic stretching for some of those returns was also brilliant.

But there were also a fair amount of loose unforced errors, and I think the ball-bashing strategy probably created more UEs. Focusing on depth + power with little point construction led to moments where both guys, particularly Federer, lost the range on their groundstrokes. Hell, look no further than the very point after that amazing set point save by Fed in the first set. 6-6 in the tiebreak and Fed badly misses a 1st ball BH trying to go down the line when it just wasn’t there. Djokovic also started that first set very poorly and each broke serve twice that set with quite a few unforced errors.

 

[7thKingSlam]

mostly Alcaraz matches vs Djokovic, Paul, Evans, and Kecmanovic (the Sinner matches are just frustrating regardless of the result). i haven't really watched many full matches so wouldn't really list any older ones immediately

Why do you find Sinner/Alcaraz matchups frustrating? I think their matchups are extremely nervy and suffer in quality at times, but for example the Beijing match was pretty great.

USO2022 was a really fun watch even if I think the quality was overrated.

Alcaraz/Djokovic has made for some pure tennis eye candy. Wimbledon 2023 and Olympics 2024 are greats, especially the latter imo.

 

[fedfan24]

Sums up late career Djokovic. Completely owned at Cincy in his prime but vultures titles there with fed nowhere near his best then out of the picture. Same story for RG, USO, Wimbledon. Piles up these titles he hardly won in his best years.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

Why do you find Sinner/Alcaraz matchups frustrating? I think their matchups are extremely nervy and suffer in quality at times, but for example the Beijing match was pretty great.

USO2022 was a really fun watch even if I think the quality was overrated.

Alcaraz/Djokovic has made for some pure tennis eye candy. Wimbledon 2023 and Olympics 2024 are greats, especially the latter imo.

neither of them ever really serve well against each other (except Wimbly '22 from what i remember) and they tend to lean into ballbashing and spray errors as a result (USO '22 was a nice reprieve because it featured really good all-court play and shotmaking from Sinner imo), rather than constructing points. Sinner this year has played more passively but that has if anything made for more bizarre and lower quality matches even with the greater stylistic contrast, because from what i could tell the flow of the matches basically came down to whether Alcaraz was finding the court with his forehand (and this year he hasn't been too consistent in that regard)

 

[jl809]

Sums up late career Djokovic. Completely owned at Cincy in his prime but vultures titles there with fed nowhere near his best then out of the picture. Same story for RG, USO, Wimbledon. Piles up these titles he hardly won in his best years.

Djoker is the great outlaster. His consistency has reaped rewards throughout his career

• Outlasted Nadal on clay: couldn’t beat Nadal on Bo5 clay in Nadal’s prime at all but was there for when he had his slumps and injuries in 15, 16, 21 and 23 (also outlasted Thiem, who beat Djoker at RG in 19)

• Outlasted Fed on fast HC: couldn’t beat Fed much on fast HC even at Djoker’s peak, but was there to win Cincy twice as soon as Fed’s form permanently fell off after IW 18

• Outlasted Murray on grass: couldn’t win a single set off Murray on grass in Djoker’s prime but was still there to win 4 Wimbledons after Murray’s career ending hip injury in 2017

• Outlasted his indoor HC competition: Struggled with Thiem and Zverev on indoor HC (lost to them in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021) but won 2 more ATP finals once both of them were out of form following injuries

• Outlasted his nemesis Stan: struggled hard with Stan on Bo5 HC (and clay) but Stan’s prime basically ended after RG 2017, at which point they never played at the AO or RG again and Djoker won 2 RGs, 2 USOs and 3 AOs

He looked after himself better than anyone listed here tbh except Fed

 

[fedfan24]

Djoker is the great outlaster. His consistency has reaped rewards throughout his career

• Outlasted Nadal on clay: couldn’t beat Nadal on Bo5 clay in Nadal’s prime at all but was there for when he had his slumps and injuries in 15, 16, 21 and 23 (also outlasted Thiem, who beat Djoker at RG in 19)

• Outlasted Fed on fast HC: couldn’t beat Fed much on fast HC even at Djoker’s peak, but was there to win Cincy twice as soon as Fed’s form permanently fell off after IW 18

• Outlasted Murray on grass: couldn’t win a single set off Murray on grass in Djoker’s prime but was still there to win 4 Wimbledons after Murray’s career ending hip injury in 2017

• Outlasted his indoor HC competition: Struggled with Thiem and Zverev on indoor HC (lost to them in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021) but won 2 more ATP finals once both of them were out of form following injuries

• Outlasted his nemesis Stan: struggled hard with Stan on Bo5 HC (and clay) but Stan’s prime basically ended after RG 2017, at which point they never played at the AO or RG again and Djoker won 2 RGs, 2 USOs and 3 AOs

He looked after himself better than anyone listed here tbh except Fed

True and he does deserve credit for that. Maybe there’s something in the crazy yoga, diets, eggs etc. outlasted all his nemesis, prime fed, Nadal, Stan, peak murray (esp on grass), thiem until he was last man standing.

 

[zakopinjo]

Sums up late career Djokovic. Completely owned at Cincy in his prime but vultures titles there with fed nowhere near his best then out of the picture. Same story for RG, USO, Wimbledon. Piles up these titles he hardly won in his best years.

Let's demystify this cheap attempt of manipulation.

James Blake ends the 2006 season with 2530 points, when those points are converted for the period after 2009 it turns out that he had 4105 (as of 2015, he would have 4255 points)

Let's see where those points that put him in 4th place in the glorious year of 2006, would take him in the seasons from 2011:

2011: 7th place
2012: 8th place
2013: 8th place
2014: 10th place
2015: 8th place
2016: 6th place
2017: 5th place
2018: 7th place
2019: 7th place
2022: 6th place
2023: 6th place

As we can see, the closest to its ranking would be 2017, also a legendary year for Fedfans.
The worst would be 2014, and a high 10th place.

Which tennis player profited and vulture the most?

 

[Third Serve]

Sums up late career Djokovic. Completely owned at Cincy in his prime but vultures titles there with fed nowhere near his best then out of the picture. Same story for RG, USO, Wimbledon. Piles up these titles he hardly won in his best years.

Some credit to his consistency and longevity though.

 

[GRASScaraz]

This shows how easily Djoko deals with AO 2017 Fed

 

[7thKingSlam]

neither of them ever really serve well against each other (except Wimbly '22 from what i remember) and they tend to lean into ballbashing and spray errors as a result (USO '22 was a nice reprieve because it featured really good all-court play and shotmaking from Sinner imo), rather than constructing points. Sinner this year has played more passively but that has if anything made for more bizarre and lower quality matches even with the greater stylistic contrast, because from what i could tell the flow of the matches basically came down to whether Alcaraz was finding the court with his forehand (and this year he hasn't been too consistent in that regard)

USO2022 was definitely fun and made some incredible highlights, but Sinner hit 97 unforced errors that match according to tennis abstract. I do cut them some slack though. They’re both very young and in that phase of the rivalry where both play nervously and don’t yet peak against each other. The Nadal/Djokovic rivalry was somewhat similar in that it took both of them a while to start peaking against each other in the big matches. Federer/Nadal took off immediately but that had a different age dynamic with Federer being at his peak and Nadal feeling like an underdog.

I agree with your assessment this year. Jannik has become really passive in the Alcaraz matchup yet all three matches were close because Carlos wasn’t able to put it all together. I thought Beijing was very fun though. Alcaraz had all the pressure to create on his shoulders while Sinner was defending very well. Carlos just couldn’t close well enough, nearly lost, but then exploded in the tiebreak from down 0-3 hitting 6 winners/forced errors in the last 7 points. RG this year was a complete letdown imo with only the 4th set really being decent quality.

Also check out the first set of Beijing last year. I thought that was great stuff, but Carlos completely disappeared in the 2nd.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Sums up late career Djokovic. Completely owned at Cincy in his prime but vultures titles there with fed nowhere near his best then out of the picture. Same story for RG, USO, Wimbledon. Piles up these titles he hardly won in his best years.

Djokovic is the GOAT but there’s of course some truth to this. I think anyone who watched him can vouch that Novak’s peak on clay was 2011-2016, and even in 2008/09 he was probably about as good as or even better than 2018-present. His forehand power and defense were a scary duo on clay.

And yet in those years, from 2008-2016, he only won RG once, with the one title being the 2016 Nadal injury. In 2018-2023, he won RG twice despite not playing near the same level. It’s clearly been a weaker field overall. He also didn’t really play well at Wimbledon 2019, 2021, or 2022 but still managed to win those and made the final this year with a very easy draw. And yeah, 3 titles at Cincinnati once Federer fell off… 2018 he played poorly the entire title run, 2020 he played a bad final but Raonic choked. He doesn’t win those titles against the field 10 years ago for sure.