Match Stats/Report - Djokovic vs Nadal, Rome quarter-final, 2016

W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Novak Djokovic beat Rafael Nadal 7-5, 7-6(4) in the Rome quarter-final, 2016 on clay

Djokovic, the defending champion, would go onto lose in the final to Andy Murray. Nadal had recently won Monte Carlo and Barcelona. Djokovic had won Madrid and would go onto win the French Open shortly afterwards. It was Djokovic's 7th straight win over Nadal

Djokovic won 87 points, Nadal 84

Serve Stats
Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (56/79) 71%
- 1st serve points won (36/56) 64%
- 2nd serve points won (15/23) 65%
- Aces 3, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (14/79) 18%

Nadal....
- 1st serve percentage (76/92) 83%
- 1st serve points won (45/76) 59%
- 2nd serve points won (11/16) 69%
- Aces 2
- Double Faults 1
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (18/92) 20%

Serve Patterns
Djokovic served...
- to FH 36%
- to BH 62%
- to Body 1%

Nadal served...
- to FH 40%
- to BH 44%
- to Body 16%

Return Stats
Djokovic made...
- 73 (37 FH, 36 BH), including 5 runaround FHs
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 16 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unforced (6 FH, 1 BH)
- 9 Forced (7 FH, 2 BH)
- Return Rate (73/91) 80%

Nadal made...
- 63 (22 FH, 41 BH), including 3 runaround FHs
- 1 Winner (1 BH)
- 10 Errors, comprising...
- 8 Unforced (5 FH, 3 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 2 Forced (2 FH)
- Return Rate (63/77) 82%

Break Points
Djokovic 3/9 (3 games)
Nadal 2/3 (2 games)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Djokovic 24 (14 FH, 5 BH, 1 FHV, 2 BHV, 2 OH)
Nadal 21 (11 FH, 8 BH, 1 BHV, 1 BH1/2V)

Djokovic's FHs - 4 dtl (1 pass), 5 inside-out (1 return), 1 inside-in, 1 inside-in/cc, 2 longline/cc and 1 drop shot
- BHs - 3 cc, 1 inside-in and 1 lob

- 1 BHV was a swinging shot
- 2 volleys were net-to-net - 1 FHV and 1 BHV

Nadal's FHs - 2 cc (1 pass), 1 dtl pass, 3 inside-out, 1 inside-in turnaround pass, 1 inside-in/cc, 1 longline pass and 2 drop shots
- BHs - 3 cc (1 return), 1 dtl slice at net, 1 running-down-drop-shot dtl at net and 2 running-down-drop-shot drops shots at net

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Djokovic 43
- 31 Unforced (18 FH, 10 BH, 2 BHV, 1 BHOH)
- 12 Forced (6 FH, 6 BH)... with 1 BH running-down-drop-shot at net
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.1

Nadal 48
- 29 Unforced (19 FH, 9 BH, 1 OH)
- 19 Forced (14 FH, 5 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 48.6

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Djokovic was...
- 9/18 (50%) at net

Nadal was...
- 14/19 (74%) at net, with...
- 2/3 (67%) forced back

Match Report
Tough and close match that could have gone either way. Nadal leads by a break in both sets and is has 5 set points while serving for the second before Djoko breaks and takes it in the tiebreak. Action is close enough that final outcome is down to Djokovic playing the important point better - and he does play them, very, very well. Much more so than Nadal doing the opposite

Unusually, both players win more second serve points than firsts (Djoko 65% to 64%, Nadal 69% to 59%)
Nadal's game
Most eye-catching feature of action is Nadal playing a balanced, duel winged game. He does not overly rely on FH or stay over on BH side of the court, as he tends to. No constant running around BHs to hit FHs

There are 2 good reasons for it
- a) his FH is loose. Note 19 UEs, which is just 1 more than Djokovic's, but Djoko's shot is more damaging (14 winners to 11) and dictates play more. Nadal's FH, if not impotent, is about as undamaging as I've seen it. Its an exaggeration to say its plopping balls in court, but its not dictating play by any means.

- doesn't seem quick enough of foot to runaround to hit FHs. Nadal's not slow, but short of lightning fast. He's got his hands full in keeping up with Djoko's regular hard hit shots playing orthodox position... and would undoubtedly have been rushed had he tried running around BHs to manufacture FH

So good decision by Nadal to play from central position, which raises the issue of how his BH - which over the course of the two players rivalry - had been all shield and no sword (especially on clay)?

It does well. 8 winners and 9 UEs are great numbers for a BH and shades Djoko (5 and 10) on both fronts. He hits BH hard and often deep, though with less than great placement

Purely from an aesthetic point of view, its not pleasing compared to his usual style. There's a bludgeoning or ball bashing quality to his offence (as opposed to the pouncing thrill of his usual FH attacks). He looks like a ball-bashing, consistent player - not uncommon successful style on clay (it can be said to be Djokovic's style even) - but to my eye, its a good 2 steps down from his norm, aesthetically speaking

Footspeed and footwork are also down from years gone by and its not too difficult to force errors out of him. He has 19, to Djokovic's 12. In other matches between the two, Djoko leading in this area is down to his having much stronger offence. Here, its at least as much about Nadal's defence being down some

Its common for Nadal's FH to have lots more FH FEs, and with his keeping central position, we're able to see to what extent that's due to his FH being weaker defensively (since having to move greater distance isn't a factor, as it tends to be when he's leaning on BH side of court). Fair to say that yes, defensively, he's more vulnerable on FH. The BH has 5 FEs

Aesthetics aside and dealing in just quality, not only isn't Nadal's game worse, it might well be better. Generally, Djoko is clearly the one in command of baseline in their matches. Here, the two fight for command and its near 50-50 who gets it. Albeit, in a ball bashing way. From Nadal's point of view, is that better or worse than being reactive, playing a hold-the-fort BH game, leaving his FH side open to be attacked... and only attacking occasionally off the FH?

In light of his movements not being what they were, the changes are necessary and smart from Nadal. He doesn't have it in him to keep retrieving ball after ball... leaving play on Djoko's racquet and trusting to Djoko missing would be very unlikely to end well for him

In short, very different Nadal from his dominant years. Backhand is stronger and he looks to play off both wings. Forehand is weaker and movements slower. Good changes, in light of how his capabilities have changed
 
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W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Play & Djokovic's Game
Djoko plays his usual, machine like, strong off both sides game.

The Djoko FH - Nadal BH rallies are the toughest in any of the pair's matches I've seen recently. Generally, they tend to be Djoko pounding and Nadal resisting being pounded, with Djoko also taking the chance to finish FH dtl. Djoko wins the battle when Nadal's BH breaks down, Nadal wins when Djoko hits himself out

Very different dynamic in this match. Both pound their respective shots and its 50-50 rallies. Djoko on average maybe hits a bit harder, but Nadal's advantage in consistency is greater than Djoko's in force. I'd say Nadal wins this battle

On his BH, Nadal has 1 more UE than winner. On his FH, Djoko has 4 more UEs. Much of Djoko's winning plays have nothing to do with the staple rallies, e.g. FH inside-out winning plays

Djoko BH - Nadal FH rallies are less interesting. Nadal's average FH is well down off impetus to the point it looks an average calibre shot. Djoko's is terrific. He wins the cc battles (more for Nadal being poor than Djoko being good), but also steps up to hit some stunning shots at crucial times

Whenever Nadal hits BH longline change ups, Djoko tends to take command of points with BH cc's. Match point is a Djokovic BH inside-in winner. How often do you see anyone play that shot, much less hit a winner off it?

The usual Djoko tomfoolery with drop shots. He does better than usual in that he doesn't make a bunch of errors trying, but as usual, loses more points than wins with it. Djoko's drop shots are largely behind the net numbers - Nadal winning 74%, Djoko 50%

For most of match, quality of rallies is down from norm, relatively short rallies and routine errors ending them. End part of match though is tough, hard rallies

Serve & Return
Nadal is the stronger server. He's doing something new from ad court by serving from wide position. From there, he throws out a lot of body serves and is able to get balls well wide to Djoko's BH. It works - to a point. Note his forcing 9 return errors. Djoko, serving normally, forces just 2

It takes Djoko better part of first set to get used to it. Once he does, its a different story. Superb returning from Djoko after that. He's quick to step away from body serves and whack them. And though serving strongly - and at 83% - Nadal's serve gets the usual, hit them hard and deep back down middle treatment

Other side of the match is mundane. Normal stuff from Djoko on serve, normal stuff from Nadal on return

Match Progression
Match starts a bit patchy. Both players hit with authority but are prone to loose errors in short rallies, including missing regulation returns. Djoko throws in unsuccessful drop shots that Nadal runs down well. Nadal gains break from a poor Djoko game

Crucially, Djoko holds a 16 point game where he doesn't face break point, before moving to 0-40 the game after. Nadal saves the first 3 break points but goes onto lose the game. Pair of errors end the game, but some great from Djoko in it

Thereafter, Djoko tightens his game, trims errors and rallies become tougher. Nadal's FH breaks down some, but his BH vs Djoko FH have some meaty duels.

Djoko breaks a second time to take the set in a 14 point game, despite Nadal making 12 first serves. Strength of Djoko's return is on show in the game, though baseline action isn't particularly good in. Set point though, is a beauty. An in command Nadal comes to net, Djoko throws up a decent lob that a backpedalling Nadal OHs reasonably well. Djoko's able to push the ball back in play, as Nadal returns to net to play a drop volley that brings Djoko in. Djoko hits a groundstroke, Nadal reflex volleys and Djoko stretch/reflex volleys that for a winner

Djoko starts second set loose and is broken at once. Nadal takes a medical time out to receive treatment on his foot at first changeover when he's up a break. Match goes on serve after with quality of play a bit better than the first set. A McEnroe-ish BH1/2V stop winner stands out for beauty and quality

Nadal serves for the set. He has 5 set points in a 16 point game where he misses just 1 first serve. Though Djoko returns powerfully in the game, Nadal does much it up some. He misses FH winner attempts on 2 of his set points, including a fairly easy drop shot with Djoko out of position. Djoko finally gets a break point in the game, and its all he needs. An extra special BH cc forces a FH error

There's a tremendous rally in the next game that Djoko ends with another top notch BH cc winner.

Crucial point in tiebreak is Nadal missing an awkward OH. Not easy, but a ball he'd expect to make. He responds with a typical FH inside-out winner to put game back on serve, 4-5 down with 2 serves to come

2 points later though, Djoko's won the match, scoring with a FH dtl that Nadal can't handle and finishing with of all things, a BH inside-in winner

Summing up, a very good match and highly competitive one with little in it. Djokovic's able to hold a 16 point game, while Nadal fails to hold 14 and 16 point ones and a couple of great shots in tiebreak push result Djoko's way. Action is interesting for Nadal playing differently - more central and duel winged - Nadal's BH matches Djoko's FH, but his FH trails Djoko's excellent BH. Despite the tight scoreline, dramatic finish and some spectacular shots, overall action trails the pair's better matches in that there's a relatively big chunk of short rallies ending with routine errors

Stats for final between Djokovic and Andy Murray - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rt-murray-vs-djokovic-rome-final-2016.661585/
Stats for pair's next match, about a year later in '17 Madrid semis - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...vic-madrid-rome-semi-finals-2017-2018.673139/
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
A good match. Nadal was beginning to return to form here, but he was still a long ways off from the level he displayed up to 2013. Fortunately (well, for Nadal fans at least), he was able to return back to a solid level in 2017.
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
Bro
Waspsting said:
Play & Djokovic's Game
Djoko plays his usual, machine like, strong off both sides game.

The Djoko FH - Nadal BH rallies are the toughest in any of the pair's matches I've seen recently. Generally, they tend to be Djoko pounding and Nadal resisting being pounded, with Djoko also taking the chance to finish FH dtl. Djoko wins the battle when Nadal's BH breaks down, Nadal wins when Djoko hits himself out

Very different dynamic in this match. Both pound their respective shots and its 50-50 rallies. Djoko on average maybe hits a bit harder, but Nadal's advantage in consistency is greater than Djoko's in force. I'd say Nadal wins this battle

On his BH, Nadal has 1 more UE than winner. On his FH, Djoko has 4 more UEs. Much of Djoko's winning plays have nothing to do with the staple rallies, e.g. FH inside-out winning plays

Djoko BH - Nadal FH rallies are less interesting. Nadal's average FH is well down off impetus to the point it looks an average calibre shot. Djoko's is terrific. He wins the cc battles (more for Nadal being poor than Djoko being good), but also steps up to hit some stunning shots at crucial times

Whenever Nadal hits BH longline change ups, Djoko tends to take command of points with BH cc's. Match point is a Djokovic BH inside-in winner. How often do you see anyone play that shot, much less hit a winner off it?

The usual Djoko tomfoolery with drop shots. He does better than usual in that he doesn't make a bunch of errors trying, but as usual, loses more points than wins with it. Djoko's drop shots are largely behind the net numbers - Nadal winning 74%, Djoko 50%

For most of match, quality of rallies is down from norm, relatively short rallies and routine errors ending them. End part of match though is tough, hard rallies

Serve & Return
Nadal is the stronger server. He's doing something new from ad court by serving from wide position. From there, he throws out a lot of body serves and is able to get balls well wide to Djoko's BH. It works - to a point. Note his forcing 9 return errors. Djoko, serving normally, forces just 2

It takes Djoko better part of first set to get used to it. Once he does, its a different story. Superb returning from Djoko after that. He's quick to step away from body serves and whack them. And though serving strongly - and at 83% - Nadal's serve gets the usual, hit them hard and deep back down middle treatment

Other side of the match is mundane. Normal stuff from Djoko on serve, normal stuff from Nadal on return

Match Progression
Match starts a bit patchy. Both players hit with authority but are prone to loose errors in short rallies, including missing regulation returns. Djoko throws in unsuccessful drop shots that Nadal runs down well. Nadal gains break from a poor Djoko game

Crucially, Djoko holds a 16 point game where he doesn't face break point, before moving to 0-40 the game after. Nadal saves the first 3 break points but goes onto lose the game. Pair of errors end the game, but some great from Djoko in it

Thereafter, Djoko tightens his game, trims errors and rallies become tougher. Nadal's FH breaks down some, but his BH vs Djoko FH have some meaty duels.

Djoko breaks a second time to take the set in a 14 point game, despite Nadal making 12 first serves. Strength of Djoko's return is on show in the game, though baseline action isn't particularly good in. Set point though, is a beauty. An in command Nadal comes to net, Djoko throws up a decent lob that a backpedalling Nadal OHs reasonably well. Djoko's able to push the ball back in play, as Nadal returns to net to play a drop volley that brings Djoko in. Djoko hits a groundstroke, Nadal reflex volleys and Djoko stretch/reflex volleys that for a winner

Djoko starts second set loose and is broken at once. Nadal takes a medical time out to receive treatment on his foot at first changeover when he's up a break. Match goes on serve after with quality of play a bit better than the first set. A McEnroe-ish BH1/2V stop winner stands out for beauty and quality

Nadal serves for the set. He has 5 set points in a 16 point game where he misses just 1 first serve. Though Djoko returns powerfully in the game, Nadal does much it up some. He misses FH winner attempts on 2 of his set points, including a fairly easy drop shot with Djoko out of position. Djoko finally gets a break point in the game, and its all he needs. An extra special BH cc forces a FH error

There's a tremendous rally in the next game that Djoko ends with another top notch BH cc winner.

Crucial point in tiebreak is Nadal missing an awkward OH. Not easy, but a ball he'd expect to make. He responds with a typical FH inside-out winner to put game back on serve, 4-5 down with 2 serves to come

2 points later though, Djoko's won the match, scoring with a FH dtl that Nadal can't handle and finishing with of all things, a BH inside-in winner

Summing up, a very good match and highly competitive one with little in it. Djokovic's able to hold a 16 point game, while Nadal fails to hold 14 and 16 point ones and a couple of great shots in tiebreak push result Djoko's way. Action is interesting for Nadal playing differently - more central and duel winged - Nadal's BH matches Djoko's FH, but his FH trails Djoko's excellent BH. Despite the tight scoreline, dramatic finish and some spectacular shots, overall action trails the pair's better matches in that there's a relatively big chunk of short rallies ending with routine errors

Stats for final between Djokovic and Andy Murray - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...rt-murray-vs-djokovic-rome-final-2016.661585/
Stats for pair's next match, about a year later in '17 Madrid semis - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...vic-madrid-rome-semi-finals-2017-2018.673139/
Click to expand...
This was one match where I could really say that nadal choked against Djokovic. Djokovic wasn't at his usual high 2015-16 level, his armour had started showing cracks (way back in Dubai, then in MC vs vessely and bageled by belluci). Nadal started getting back to a high level, he had the upper hand and yet failed to capitalise and potentially end his draught a year earlier
 
Hoshi

Hoshi

Rookie
Nadal was playing with a bad wrist since Madrid. Not sure what he was thinking. The clay season was worth the gamble for him but it got worse. Very competitive match despite his problem
 
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AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

G.O.A.T.
HetTheGreaterer said:
Inside out.
But don't insult waspsting for that. As great as he is as an analyst, humans are bound to make small error at some point
Click to expand...

Crosscourt shot from mid-court. Its right half but the contact point is obviously in the mid-court area.

Wasp looks to have built a quaint analytical narrative and these tidbits are examples. Weird model of tennis.
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Crosscourt shot from mid-court. Its right half but the contact point is obviously in the mid-court area.

Wasp looks to have built a quaint analytical narrative and these tidbits are examples. Weird model of tennis.
Click to expand...
Oh.
I made a mistake as well. Just re-watched the highlights. You're right it was a cc BH
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
HetTheGreaterer said:
...Djokovic wasn't at his usual high 2015-16 level, his armour had started showing cracks (way back in Dubai, then in MC vs vessely and bageled by belluci). Nadal started getting back to a high level, he had the upper hand and yet failed to capitalise and potentially end his draught a year earlier
Click to expand...

There's a quote from a chess player that I think applies to Djokovic

Paraphrashing, "The point isn't to play well. The point is to play better than your opponent"

He often seems to do just the needful and not much more. Who else can make 100 UEs, win the match and few days later, play some of the best matches of his career?

To me, the big takeaway was contemplating Nadal without a dictating FH. Its like trying to imagine Sampras without a fat serve

He'd still make a good clay courter, potential French Open champion on back of movement, defence consistency, general toughness etc

But it did also bring home to me that its the big FH that's really put Nadal over the top. There a few guys who seem to never-miss-a-ball (probably not to Nadal's extent, but along same lines), but they can't 'boss' (if not outright attack) from the back the same way Nadal usually has with FH

HetTheGreaterer said:
...(match point) was a cc BH
Click to expand...

I'd still call it inside-in

He's in his FH court and hits a BH to the adjacent court... that's the definition of inside-in

Also, the angles too blunt to readily be described as 'crosscourt'. It looks more longline than crosscourt

There are two reasons to label shots
- to give info about angle of shot
- to give info about where the shot was played from

Here, angle of shot is blunt and he's played the shot from deuce court (and he's a right hander)

Picking just between cc and inside-in... 10/10 I'd say inside-in

cc evokes images of a guy in ad court, hitting diagonally. Is that what the point looks like?

at 1:44

Dedans Penthouse said:
TL ; DR
Click to expand...

Sorry, Pent :)

Thought you'd be more interested in '90s stuff - Sampras, Agassi etc.

Here's my Magnus Opus - just for you - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-miami-finals-1994-1996.671418/#post-14364063
 
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AnOctorokForDinner

AnOctorokForDinner

G.O.A.T.
Waspsting said:
I'd still call it inside-in

He's in his FH court and hits a BH to the adjacent court... that's the definition of inside-in

Also, the angles too blunt to readily be described as 'crosscourt'. It looks more longline than crosscourt

There are two reasons to label shots
- to give info about angle of shot
- to give info about where the shot was played from

Here, angle of shot is blunt and he's played the shot from deuce court (and he's a right hander)

Picking just between cc and inside-in... 10/10 I'd say inside-in

cc evokes images of a guy in ad court, hitting diagonally. Is that what the point looks like?
Click to expand...

Don't we divide the court into three parts - left, right and middle - rather than only the two (left and right) halves, which would be crude, no?

A ball hit from the middle section of the court (mid-court) goes inside-out/down the middle/crosscourt depending on which part of the opponent's court it is directed to - seems entirely intuitive. Djokovic was positioned mid-court, to the right of the middle but not in the FH corner area (right side).
 
S

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
The biggest choke of Nadal's career. He was extremely far from his prime in 2016 and still could have won the match if he wasn't choking like crazy. Really shows that 2016 Djokovic on clay is overrated.
 
Hitman

Hitman

Talk Tennis Guru
StrongRule said:
The biggest choke of Nadal's career. He was extremely far from his prime in 2016 and still could have won the match if he wasn't choking like crazy. Really shows that 2016 Djokovic on clay is overrated.
Click to expand...

You sure about that?
 
Mainad

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Third Serve said:
I don’t think any drop in Nadal’s level was what caused him to lose the break. His level was pretty much the same throughout the entire fifth set. It was Federer reeling off a bunch of winners to score the comeback.
Click to expand...

HomelyComposedGalago-max-1mb.gif
 
S

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Mainad said:
2017 AO final?
Click to expand...
That was a bad loss, even a very bad one, but I wouldn't call it a choke. He missed an easy forehand to make it 4-2, but he would be still far from winning, and most importantly, he was clearly the worse player during the whole set, he was getting outplayed anyway. It would be a big choke if, for example, he would hold his serve easily until having to serve for the title, and then would suddenly get tight and start missing easy shots due to being afraid to win. This is exactly the story of Rome 2016.
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
Hitman said:
How do you separate the two? Since the more important the match, the more the mental pressure.
Click to expand...
Come on you're talking with strongrule hitman.
Who almost always sits on the edge of his seat and complaints that nadal is a choker when he loses matches, sets or even games.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
StrongRule said:
The biggest choke of Nadal's career. He was extremely far from his prime in 2016 and still could have won the match if he wasn't choking like crazy. Really shows that 2016 Djokovic on clay is overrated.
Click to expand...

So now this is the biggest choke of Nadal's career? I thought your consensus was that he was godawful from 2014 RG through 2016 in Djokovic matches? You can't make up your mind.
 
HetTheGreaterer

HetTheGreaterer

Banned
Mainad said:
So it was, stand corrected.
Click to expand...
On a side note, can you find a more weird thing about tennis than the fact that Murray had won rome, but roger hasn't. Murray has exactly same number of clay court wins over rafa as roger has. Murray has managed to take down rafa on clay without getting broken, whereas djokovic hasn't.

Pretty good reasons to consider murygoat
 
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