Match Stats/Report - Federer vs Roddick, Wimbledon final, 2009

that's the point - the mega hypocrisy. You don't want to see or admit when someone has clear mental letdown vs Djokovic. You just categorized both the AO finals as Djoko "outlasting" Murray physically to avoid admitting.
Situation doesn't have to be exactly the same.

Roddick was a point away from the set, with 3 serves on his own to close it out, and his serve is no ordinary serve either. And if you analyze those points on his serve, he screwed it up big time. Murray had a whole TB to try and win, he was never in the sort of position Roddick was in. So it's not close of being similar. And cause you are calling me out on hypocrisy, these situations has to be similar for it to be ok calling me a hypocrite.
 
Roddick was a point away from the set, with 3 serves on his own to close it out, and his serve is no ordinary serve either. And if you analyze those points on his serve, he screwed it up big time. Murray had a whole TB to try and win, he was never in the sort of position Roddick was in. So it's not close of being similar. And cause you are calling me out on hypocrisy, these situations has to be similar for it to be ok calling me a hypocrite.

playing below par in the TB due to being distracted by a weather is mental letdown.
Roddick screwed up on the high volley, but fed saved the other 3 SPs.
he had 2 points on serve to close it out, not 3 btw.

No, situation doesn't have to be similar for me to call out hypocrisy.
Just like your convenient propagandistic hiding behind surfaces and not being able to admit Roddick of WIm 09 final >> Murray of AO 13/15 finals. Not even remotely close. not within 10 country miles. The difference is clearly big and obvious enough - the surfaces part shouldn't even be any sort of obstacle to comparing.
 
yes, exaggeration. Especially when you won't talk about Roddick saving set1.
When you won't talk about Crumblovic in USO 13.
When you are utterly delusional enough to say Djokovic wasn't lucky in the Wim 19 TBs with fed playing ****ty in all of them.



LMAO. fed played ****ty TBs - all 3 of them. Djoko was just solid, nothing special. Never has fed played that bad in TBs in a Wim match from 2003 onwards (incl vs Djokovic in 14/15 where they split the TBs in both matches). It was 3 of them, FFS. 1 below par TB is understandable, but 3 in a match is unimaginable.

Wim 19 final TBs:

1st set TB: 1-1, fed misses an easy FH point
5-3: horrible FH CC miss from fed
5-4: another bad FH CC miss from fed
5-6: BH CC miss (deep to an extent)

that's a blown TB, alright. fed loses it from 5-3 up with 3 UEs out of the 4 points.

3rd set TB:

0-0: BH shank off a mid-court ball from fed
0-2: another BH UE off a mid-court ball from fed
1-3: this return is beyond the service line alright, but definitely another BH UE from fed
4-5: djokovic fh is a little over service line, fed misses the BH dropshot

this is also a bad TB from fed.

djokovic was merely solid in this TB. nothing suffocating or great.

Like I said, you have your agenda up your you know where, you tend to make utterlly rubbish assessments.
Federer tends to hit more UFE facing Djokovic because he goes for the lines more. Djokovic hit plenty of winners too.
 
playing below par in the TB due to being distracted by a weather is mental letdown.
Roddick screwed up on the high volley, but fed saved the other 3 SPs.
he had 2 points on serve to close it out, not 3 btw.

No situation doesn't have to be similar for me to call out hypocrisy.
Just your convenient propagandistic hiding behind surfaces and not being able to admit Roddick of WIm 09 final > Murray of AO 13/15 finals. Not even remotely close. not within 10 country miles.

Nope, you are wrong. Thanks.
 
Nope, you are wrong. Thanks.
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The most amazing thing about that match: Roddick served 33 times, and Federer could break only once, the very last game of the match.
 
Serve & Return
Skimming over both players serving superbly. For Roddick, the 70% in count is particularly impressive, given how hard he sends down his first serve. His second serves are also powerful - much more so than Federer's.

The returning - particularly Roddick's - has room for improvement. Significant lot of Federer's first serves are near enough regulation placed, in swing zone or coverable by a step - and unlike Rod, his serve isn't overwhelmingly fast.

15/38 Roddick return errors have been marked unforced or 39%. For Federer, the figure is 20/68 or 29%. Even 'regulation' returns on grass aren't gimmes. Room for improvement for Roddick, not amounting to a blackmark. Some for Fed too

Great credit to both for low double faults - again, more Roddick. Both have just 4 in virtually same number of 2nd serves (Fed 70, Roddick 71)

There area few reasons for the large discrepancy in aces. Fed has humongous 51, to Roddick's sizable 27 (+ 3 service winners). Roddick serves more to the body (11% to 5%), forcing errors but not likely to go for aces. Fed places his serves out wide - particularly to FH in deuce court - much better. Most of all, the movement of the returners

Fed steps around on light feet to get racquet on ball. Roddick's often stone as the aces go by

Finally, there's a small amount of tanking returns by Roddick, enough to account for 3-7 aces. Well down in games, he makes no effort to play the ball when its wide

While Fed returns best he can, there are areas Roddick can do better. He obviously has no read on the serve... why not just guess and move to one side or the other? If he's wrong, ball goes through for an ace - which its already doing very large amount of the time. If he's right, he has much better shot at making the return. With Fed winning 89% first serve points - mostly through unreturned serves, but also drawing weak returns that he can putaway or at least, command - there's no down side to guessing and moving from Roddick's point of view. Instead, he plays ball through the air and can get little down against it

Healthy as Fed's 2nd serve is - though overshadowed by the power of Roddick's - its rarely weapon level strong and predictably directed to Rod's BH. Attacking it with big cut returns is doable. Roddick makes next to no attempt, and returns orthodoxly firmly, leaving Fed with oppurtunity to command third ball. As Fed dominates play from even neutral positions, let alone one's where he has initiative - onus is on Rod to do something proactive with the return. He doesn't.

Contrast to the '04 final when he looked to put the aggressively take on the 2nd serves, with reasonable success. Attacking returning might be beyond Rod's ability - and its no easy task against Fed's good 2nd serve. The alternative of returning orthodoxly and allowing play to unfold as Fed dictate is what he goes with it. It doesn't work and he wins just 40% 2nd serve return points

Good, solid returning by Fed against 2nd serves. He doesn't attack with the return either - it would be harder to against Roddick's bigger delivery - but he doesn't need to as much since he's got better of rallies, and wins 56% 2nd serve return points

Strategy & Play - Baseline (& Net)
There are differences in the way 2 players approach play, all of which lies in context of unreturned serves doing most of the work in holding for both players

Roddick is content to keep ball in play off the ground and looks to come to net to attack. Federer stays on baseline more, looks to stay solid and work over Roddick's BH while throwing out point finishing FHs

On the FH, Federer has a huge advantage in all areas. In neutral rallies, he hits harder and is able to lash the odd ball to take charge. Rod is relegated to counter-punching. FH UEs are dead even at 23, but Fed's shot ends points or gives him charge to a far greater degree. It also doesn't take too much to draw an error out of Roddick... a bit extra wide or deeper does the trick. Roddick's rarely able to get similar shots of to test Federer with. Fed with match high 35 winners - 1 more than Roddick's total winners, 20 of which are FHs. Roddick's winners tend to be set up by big serves or putaway shots. Fed has all that going for him + shot making out of near regulation positions to boot. And it not taking too forceful a shot to get errors out of Roddick

Roddick's BH is the only real weak link on show. Fed works it over some with BH cc's and mild FH inside-outs. 31 BH UEs from Rod. He struggles against slices, which are excellent and stay low, but looks like a problem in technique on Roddick's end as much as anything. Fed's BH has match low 19 UEs... its solid enough, but more discredit to Roddick's BH than credit to Fed's in this particular exchange

Solidity, more than aggression marks baseline play and UEFI's are surprisingly low and near equal (Fed 45.5, Rod 45.1). Breakdown of errors -
- Neutral - Fed 27, Rod 34
- Attacking - Fed 10, Rod 17
- Winner attempts - Fed 7, Rod 6

Both players making about half as many attacking UEs as they force errors (Fed forces 21, Rod 33) is a decent outcome

Fed with advantage in basic neutral consistency. Rod's FH UEs tend to be on hard side for being UEs (on the move, or against deep-ish balls), the BHs which make up the bulk area problem for him

Tremendous efficiency from Fed on the winners front since he has 52 winners to 7 UEs going for them. He picks and chooses when to go for the kill shot, looking to work Roddick's BH over first or to set up the final shots. Its a balanced and sensible showing from him. Roddick's number is also very good to (34 winners to 6 UEs trying). Most of his winners are set up by the serve or net points... and in neutral rallies, he's usually pushed into reactive position

Roddick makes 11 UEs (5 FH, 6 BH) in the last 4 games (Fed 0) when fatigue more than anything about his game seems to be the cause. Sans that small period, UEs read -
- Federer 44 (23 FH, 19 BH, 2 FHV)
- Roddick 46 (18 FH, 25 BH, 3 BHV)

Just about even, and a reasonably clean showing from both players

Somewhat oddly, Roddick primarily approaches to Federer's FH. Likely because he's most confident in his FH cc. Given its fragility in play, it'd be asking for trouble to trust to his BH and he barely hits a FH dtl all match... so by default, he comes in behind FH cc's to Federer's very strong FH side. Wouldn't come as a surprise to see that end disastrously - given general strength of Fed's FH and Roddick's volleying - but it goes ok. Fed's FH has match high 19 FEs and most would be passing shots. Putting that in perspective, Roddick has 21 FEs total and Fed's non-FH FEs total 14. Rod's not faced with difficult volleys and good lot of Fed's 8 baseline-to-net passing winners are points he's drawn Roddick forward with short slices

Plenty of scope for Fed to come in more, though not much reason as he dominates the baseline. Curiously, Roddick's choppy BH fires on the pass. He knocks off 3 winners early in first set, which might have a hand in keeping Fed back (not that it matters much)
---
Summing up, highly serve dominated match that pivots on a small number of crucial points. Its a tricky one to interpret and best remembered for Roddick missing an easy BHV on set point and more broadly, choking away 2nd set tiebreak (misses regulation return, misses 2 first serves after having barely missed all set, misses regulation BH on set point though that's not uncommon for him) that would have left him 2 sets to love up

Its more the case that Roddick's fairly lucky to have gotten deep enough into the match where he's in a position to have blown chances of winning it, with Federer having been superior in virtually all areas of the game. The serving is about a wash, Federer returns significantly better with there being scope for Roddick to have done more on the 2nd shot, Federer is a lot better off the ground - in attack, in defence, of solidity, of shotmaking - and Roddick's left to dangerously approach to Federer's FH to give his game teeth

All that's in context of thorough serve domination from both players. Roddick plays cleanly enough to hold without much trouble (though not as little as Federer) and takes his few chances and thwarts Federer's all the way to the end, when he's physically spent. Match could go either way. For it to have gone Roddick's way would have entailed a disproportionate hand from chance.

Good showing from both - Fed balanced in his attacking play and smartly exploiting Roddick's weak BH, Roddick playing quite cleanly and bold enough to attack net with success - and great serving to the extent of making it a 'serve-botty' encounter. Fed comfortably better overall, but not enough to guarantee the result, a few crucial points shaping sets and Roddick out of gas at the end allowing Fed to get over

@RS - thoughts?

Stats for pair's '04 final - Match Stats/Report - Federer vs Roddick, Wimbledon final, 2004 | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
Stats for the '08 final between Federer and Rafael Nadal - Match Stats/Report - Nadal vs Federer, Wimbledon final 2008 | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
Do you think post 2008 this was highest quality Wimbledon final we have seen?
 
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Do you think post 2008 this was highest quality Wimbledon final we have seen?
No, The 2009 Wimbledon final had Fed playing like hot garbage for the first two sets and mediocre for most of the match. Roddick performed brilliantly except for choking away the second set TB when he was up 6-2.

The highest quality Wimbledon final post-2008 has to be 2012. Both Murray and Federer were playing extremely well, a much higher quality match than 2009 Wimbledon where only one guy brought his A-game.
 
No, The 2009 Wimbledon final had Fed playing like hot garbage for the first two sets and mediocre for most of the match. Roddick performed brilliantly except for choking away the second set TB when he was up 6-2.

The highest quality Wimbledon final post-2008 has to be 2012. Both Murray and Federer were playing extremely well, a much higher quality match than 2009 Wimbledon where only one guy brought his A-game.
No.
 
No, The 2009 Wimbledon final had Fed playing like hot garbage for the first two sets and mediocre for most of the match. Roddick performed brilliantly except for choking away the second set TB when he was up 6-2.

The highest quality Wimbledon final post-2008 has to be 2012. Both Murray and Federer were playing extremely well, a much higher quality match than 2009 Wimbledon where only one guy brought his A-game.
2012 was a great final as well to be honest I can see why somebody would choose that. 2011/2014/2015/2019 are also considered depending on the person.
 
No, The 2009 Wimbledon final had Fed playing like hot garbage for the first two sets and mediocre for most of the match. Roddick performed brilliantly except for choking away the second set TB when he was up 6-2.

The highest quality Wimbledon final post-2008 has to be 2012. Both Murray and Federer were playing extremely well, a much higher quality match than 2009 Wimbledon where only one guy brought his A-game.

Nope. Fed got ~45% unret serves in Wim 2009 final compared to only ~22% in Wim 2012 final. Fed's serving was mediocre in Wim 12 final compared to Wim 09 final even with Murray's returning being significantly better. Mind you, Fed had ~40% unret. serves in Wim 15 semi vs Murray. So it wasn't just Murray's returning in Wim 12 final.

Federer played mediocre in the 1st set of Wim 12 final. Broken twice. first 1.5 sets of Wim 12 final - his FH was worse than at any stage in Wim 09 final. Murray had clearly more FH winners than him in that period.
Fed had to pull a magic game to take the 2nd set.
Only in 3rd and 4th set did he play like Federer of the old.

Only Federer's returning was below par by his standards in Wim 09 final, but part of credit has to go to Roddick's exceptional serving. His serve, FH, BH, movement, net play were all good or better. First 2 sets were hardly garbage from Fed. One missed FH towards end of 1st set on BP and a nervy game with Roddick playing well to capitalise. that's it.
 
Nope. Fed got ~45% unret serves in Wim 2009 final compared to only ~22% in Wim 2012 final. Fed's serving was mediocre in Wim 12 final compared to Wim 09 final even with Murray's returning being significantly better. Mind you, Fed had ~40% unret. serves in Wim 15 semi vs Murray. So it wasn't just Murray's returning in Wim 12 final.

Federer played mediocre in the 1st set of Wim 12 final. Broken twice. first 1.5 sets of Wim 12 final - his FH was worse than at any stage in Wim 09 final. Murray had clearly more FH winners than him in that period.
Fed had to pull a magic game to take the 2nd set.
Only in 3rd and 4th set did he play like Federer of the old.

Only Federer's returning was below par by his standards in Wim 09 final, but part of credit has to go to Roddick's exceptional serving. His serve, FH, BH, movement, net play were all good or better. First 2 sets were hardly garbage from Fed. One missed FH towards end of 1st set on BP and a nervy game with Roddick playing well to capitalise. that's it.
Was Federer of the Wim 12 final worse than Federer of the Wim 09 F and Wim 15 SF?
 
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Nope. Fed got ~45% unret serves in Wim 2009 final compared to only ~22% in Wim 2012 final. Fed's serving was mediocre in Wim 12 final compared to Wim 09 final even with Murray's returning being significantly better. Mind you, Fed had ~40% unret. serves in Wim 15 semi vs Murray. So it wasn't just Murray's returning in Wim 12 final.

Federer played mediocre in the 1st set of Wim 12 final. Broken twice. first 1.5 sets of Wim 12 final - his FH was worse than at any stage in Wim 09 final. Murray had clearly more FH winners than him in that period.
Fed had to pull a magic game to take the 2nd set.
Only in 3rd and 4th set did he play like Federer of the old.

Only Federer's returning was below par by his standards in Wim 09 final, but part of credit has to go to Roddick's exceptional serving. His serve, FH, BH, movement, net play were all good or better. First 2 sets were hardly garbage from Fed. One missed FH towards end of 1st set on BP and a nervy game with Roddick playing well to capitalise. that's it.
Mind blowing and pretty harsh evaluation of the match really and from a non Federer fan you can at least understand it a bit but from a Federer fan :rolleyes:
 
Was Federer of the Wim 12 final worse than Federer of the Wim 09 F and Wim 15 SF?

Actual performance wise, I'd say yes. But with the cavaet that Wim 12 Fed had the capability to maintain level for longer than Wim 15 Fed and was playing like old self in the last 2 sets and bit in Wim 12 final. So if I had to pick Wim12 Fed vs Wim 15 Fed, I'd take Wim 12 Fed.
 
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Mind blowing and pretty harsh evaluation of the match really and from a non Federer fan you can at least understand it a bit but from a Federer fan :rolleyes:
It just supports age excuses better hence it must be pedaled in every single thread ever.
 
It just supports age excuses better hence it must be pedaled in every single thread ever.
As repeated all the fanbases have biases and make excuses we focus more on age but Djokdal fans have other things they focus on so no use just pointing it at Federer fans.
 
As repeated all the fanbases have biases and make excuses we focus more on age but Djokdal fans have other things they focus on so no use just pointing it at Federer fans.
It's absolutely warranted seeing as they disrespect post 2009 Fed the most just to preserve the sancity of "prime Fed".

There's one group of people arguing a 63.5% game winning Wimbledon run including wins over Djokovic and Murray is worse than a 57.5% game winning Wimbledon run vs Roddick and it ain't the Roddick fans.
 
It's absolutely warranted seeing as they disrespect post 2009 Fed the most just to preserve the sancity of "prime Fed".

There's one group of people arguing a 63.5% game winning Wimbledon run including wins over Djokovic and Murray is worse than a 57.5% game winning Wimbledon run vs Roddick and it ain't the Roddick fans.
I didn't comment on which was better between 2009 Federer or 2012 Federer in both those finals just the idea 2009 Fed was crap. And games won to loss can be a skewed metric btw.........

Again the 2nd part is based on a huge generalisation about Federer fans while some do this others claim 2004-2007 was weak and even dump on Roddick more than anything but you never mention anything about that (a player who you support)
 
2012 final was probably a better performance from Fed than the 2009 final (though Roddick’s serving would still give him fits) but I think Fed was better throughout the whole of the 2009 tournament.
 
It's absolutely warranted seeing as they disrespect post 2009 Fed the most just to preserve the sancity of "prime Fed".

There's one group of people arguing a 63.5% game winning Wimbledon run including wins over Djokovic and Murray is worse than a 57.5% game winning Wimbledon run vs Roddick and it ain't the Roddick fans.

Umm, games% is skewed towards lower side under faster conditions/facing big serving. Fed faced 4 such servers better than anyone he faced in Wim 12 : Soderling, Karlovic, Haas and Roddick.

A better indicator is points won% (you have some leeway on return with a high hold% as in 2009)

SPW: 78.7% in 2009 vs 71.6% in 2012
RPW: 33.7% in 2009 vs 43% in 2012

Fed's DR in Wim 09 was 1.58, in Wim 12 was 1.51 (This skews a bit towards serving tbf)
 
Actual performance wise, I'd say yes. But with the cavaet that Wim 12 Fed had the capability to maintain level for longer than Wim 15 Fed and was playing like old self in the last 2 sets and bit in Wim 12 final. So if I had to pick Wim12 Fed vs Wim 15 Fed, I'd take Wim 12 Fed.
I didn't think you would say the Wim 15 SF was at that level of those 2 even in that match but fair enough.
 
2012 final was probably a better performance from Fed than the 2009 final (though Roddick’s serving would still give him fits) but I think Fed was better throughout the whole of the 2009 tournament.
I expect that 2012 Federer would still take 5 to beat Roddick IMHO.
 
2012 final was probably a better performance from Fed than the 2009 final (though Roddick’s serving would still give him fits) but I think Fed was better throughout the whole of the 2009 tournament.
It's surprising still how 2012 Fed faced 0 big servers. Thst's why I'm not so sure if his return is better.
 
It's surprising still how 2012 Fed faced 0 big servers. Thst's why I'm not so sure if his return is better.
I see 2009 Federer returning with far less problems against Djokovic or Murray who has a fragile 2nd serve in truth.
 
If Fed had lost, it’d probably have been an even bigger choke considering he was generally outplaying Roddick for most of the match.
The correct way of seeing that match. That day I saw as Roddick losing the match due to the high backhand volley, but failed to grasp how good Federer was playing in all other areas of the game. Roddick served well in order to keep him in the match and being close to winning, but just that isn't enough.
 
Service points won:
Federer 155/197 = 78.7 %
Roddick 171/239 = 71.5 %

That's a pretty big gap over such a large sample. Federer should win this match, but the way serving and sets currently work, there's a ton of variance in tiebreaks and random points here and there.
 
No he didn't. What happened is Federer almost beat himself. Look at the stats - despite Roddick serving 40 more points than Federer, Federer actually won more points than Roddick. Play this match 100 times, and Federer is winning well over half of them.

Correct!

Roddick was a gamer here. He did well to stay the course and only had two notable lapses all match: the high BH volley in the second set tb, the last service game in the 5th………………….after 37 straight holds. Federer beat him, and was a little unlucky it was as close as it ended up being (contrary to popular belief).
 
2009 was only worth watching in the first half the year. This tournament wasn't the same without Nadal either.
 
No he didn't. What happened is Federer almost beat himself. Look at the stats - despite Roddick serving 40 more points than Federer, Federer actually won more points than Roddick. Play this match 100 times, and Federer is winning well over half of them.
Fed would probably win at least 3/4 of 100 probably even more if both are starting out completely fresh.
 
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