Match Stats/Report - Kuerten vs Federer, French Open third round, 2004

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Gustavo Kuerten beat Roger Federer 6-4, 6-4, 6-4 in the French Open third round, 2004 on clay

28th seed Kuerten would go onto lose in the quarter-final to David Nalbandian. Federer was the top seed, had recently won Hamburg and this would be the only Slam he would not win in the year

Kuerten won 99 points, Federer 87

Serve Stats
Kuerten...
- 1st serve percentage (48/91) 53%
- 1st serve points won (33/48) 69%
- 2nd serve points won (29/43) 67%
- Aces 6
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (25/91) 27%

Federer...
- 1st serve percentage (58/95) 61%
- 1st serve points won (41/58) 71%
- 2nd serve points won (17/37) 46%
- Aces 10
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (28/95) 29%

Serve Patterns
Kuerten served...
- to FH 26%
- to BH 74%

Federer served...
- to FH 35%
- to BH 62%
- to Body 2%

Return Stats
Kuerten made...
- 65 (25 FH, 40 BH), including 4 runaround FHs
- 1 Winner (1 BH)
- 18 Errors, comprising...
- 10 Unforced (8 FH, 2 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 8 Forced (1 FH, 7 BH)
- Return Rate (65/93) 70%

Federer made...
- 66 (21 FH, 45 BH), including 6 runaround FHs & 1 return-approach
- 1 Winner (1 FH)
- 19 Errors, comprising...
- 9 Unforced (6 FH, 3 BH), including 3 runaround FHs
- 10 Forced (4 FH, 6 BH)
- Return Rate (66/91) 73%

Break Points
Kuerten 4/12 (5 games)
Federer 1/2 (1 game)

Winners (excluding serves, including returns)
Kuerten 17 (6 FH, 7 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OH)
Federer 22 (13 FH, 3 BH, 3 BHV, 1 BH1/2V, 1 OH, 1 Sky Hook)

Kuerten's FHs - 2 cc, 1 cc/inside-in at net, 1 dtl, 2 inside-in
- BHs - 1 cc pass, 3 dtl, 2 inside-out (1 return pass), 1 lob

Federer's FHs - 2 cc (1 return), 2 dtl, 1 dtl/inside-out, 4 inside-out (1 at net), 2 inside-in, 1 inside-in/cc, 1 running-down-drop-shot cc pass at net
- BHs - 1 cc (which Kuerten seems to leave), 2 dtl

- 3 from serve-volley points - 2 first volleys (2 BHV) & 1 second volley (1 Sky Hook)... that can reasonably be called an OH

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Kuerten 37
- 26 Unforced (15 FH, 11 BH)
- 11 Forced (8 FH, 2 BH, 1 FHV)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.3

Federer 55
- 34 Unforced (15 FH, 15 BH, 1 FHV, 2 BHV, 1 OH)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net
- 21 Forced (6 FH, 11 BH, 1 FHV, 1 FH1/2V, 2 BHV)... with 2 BH running-down-drop-shot at net
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 47.1

(Note 1: all half-volleys refer to such shots played at net. Half -volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke counts)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Kuerten was 14/16 (88%) at net

Federer was...
- 16/31 (52%) at net including...
- 6/10 (60%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 6/9 (67%) off 1st serve and...
- 0/1 off 2nd serve
---
- 1/1 return-approaching
- 1/1 forced back

Match Report
Kuerten having subtle gears to his offence that his opponent lacks and Federer being unconvincing in returning high kicked serves to his BH are the major differences in a good and interesting match

Second serve points won - Guga 67%, Fed 46%, in context of…
First serve points won - Guga 69%, Fed 71%
Strong first serves account for high first serve points won (not a given on clay, but normal enough for these two players). High combined 16 aces (Fed 10, Guga 6) support that

Guga winning second serve points at about same rate as both players high first serve points though looks very odd. He most definitely isn’t serving 2 ‘first’ serves, so why’s he winning as many points behind a pretty normal second serve?

Its not because he’s so much better court player. If he were, Fed would would be winning something like 35% second serve points, not 46%

It is because Fed’s second returning against high kickers to BH are ineffective. Plopping balls with little pace and rarely deep. Even the relatively firmer, deeper ones leave Guga time to wind up first groundstroke

Just looks like a technical glitch. Not uncommon for 1-handed BHs to have this problem. And no small amount of it due to Guga’s general superiority off the ground; he’s not slapping third ball winners or otherwise ending his second serve points quickly. He is taking lead (sometimes extending to attacking) position from third ball - and winning 67% from that not-large advantage still takes some doing, especially against a fleet opponent

Winners - Guga 17, Fed 22
Errors Forced - Guga 21, Fed 11

Very winner heavy yield of aggressively end points for Fed, most of it ground-to-ground from his FH. If you can hit that may winners (Fed’s FH has match high 13 winners - same as Guga’s FH and BH combined), then forcing errors should be even easier. Especially as Guga isn’t the quickest

Instead, low errors forced from Fed. With him, its either a perfect point ending shot (a winner into the corner) or a neutral shot without much happening in between. Its not the best of going about being aggressive, especially on clay, especially when player doesn’t have consistency advantage to lead neutral UEs

Guga more balanced in 2 ways
- He’s damaging of both FH and BH (Fed’s BH isn’t a danger shot by contrast)
- He does force errors from the back, on top of hitting winners. Takes some doing too because Fed is quick. BH dtl's score, some wide BH cc's. Drop shots play a role too, though there aren't many of them

On top of leading neutral UEs 13-19, that’s good to be winning on for Guga

Last piece of puzzle is Fed's net play and its well though out. In lieu of not forcing errors from back (and trailing in consistency), Fed takes net. That is a relatively safe way to attack and it’s a good move

Wins just 52% there though, Some challenging dipping passes from Guga and Fed not great at coping with it. But coming in relatively high 31 times (Guga has 16 approaches to contextualize) is a sound move. Relative lack of success there is due to combo of Guga’s good passing, Fed’s not great volleying. It’s a middling contest, with both showings far from inviting superlatives positive or negative. Credit Guga for making Fed’s life at net tricky

Break points - Guga 4/12 (5 games), Fed 1/2 (1 game)

Leaving aside being broken just once, it’s the only game Guga even faces break point. And it’s in his first service game of the match. Little odd in that light that points served are so close (Guga 91, Fed 95)

Guga’s taken to deuce 4 times without facing break point. You could say Fed is half a step behind in being a threat to break. All of those take place in first two sets, where there’s little between the two players. Third set is different, with Fed going off the boil some - loss of concentration? Frustration? Resigned to result? - whatever it is, he doesn’t fight competitively and Guga for only time has sizably better of things

Finally, nice visual for the match. Guga wears red and black, Fed blue and white

Serve & Return
Strong serving from both. Fed better, quicker on the first return and unconvincing on the second against high ball

First serves are powerful and well-placed from both. Aces and ace rates are both high
- Aces - Guga 6, Fed 10
- first serve ace rate - Guga 13%, Fed 17%

There are some servers, who other than their aces, don’t serve challengingly. Guga and Fed are not among them and those high rates are fair indicator of how many other challengingly powerful and/or wide serves they get off

Fed leading in count 61% to Guga’s low 53%
is a good start from his point of view. And he’s significantly quicker in moving to meet wide returns and get them back in play. Early on, Fed half a step off in that, but he soon rectifies that and for most of match, first serves have to be very good, potential aces to draw error from him. Guga less so and slightly wide serve is good enough to draw error from him

Putting that together, Fed with slim 2% lead on unreturneds is relative win for Guga

It’s a very different story with second serves. Normal, decent second serving from both players, with Guga kicking almost all of his to the BH. He serves 74% to BH (Fed serves 62%)

Kick serves do what they do. They’re not particularly vicious of spin. Rise to lower rib height typically (not shoulders as some players are able to do). And Fed’s returning of it is soft. Ploppy returns that are rarely deep. ‘Not short’ is a good return for him (as opposed to deep) and even those leave Guga comfy third ball

Normal stuff on other end. Guga returning without trouble and occasionally, able to to sweep the ball wide. Such returns rarely draw errors, but Fed’s not likely to command the rally against them either

All that leads to key second serve points won Guga 67%, Fed 46%
That key isn’t just about the second serve-return dynamics as outlined above, but the first two shots do does have substantial role and shape what happens next

Play - Baseline (& Net)
Action is baseline based, with Fed liberally turning to net as he’s outplayed from the back. Dual winged rallies, with both players moving-over-to-play FHs some of the time. Fed considerably more though he doesn’t overdo it to degree of FH dependence or BH avoidanace. Guga only rarely moves over to play FHs

Hitting is solidly good, especially the FHs. Fed harder hitter on that side in stock exchanges, and Guga slightly reacting. He does not give up weak balls though.
BH exchanges are normal of hitting strength and equal between the 2 players, Fed a little prone to missing the routine cc shots. Rallies aren’t short so play isn’t sloppy even when UEs are at center of things

Neutral UEs - Guga 13, Fed 19
 
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Waspsting

Hall of Fame
The logical starting point to make sense of such action, with onus of attacking falling on the less secure player (unless he has sizable lead in freebies, which Fed doesn’t)

Ground to ground winners - Guga 9, Fed 14
Ground to ground Errors Forced - Guga 9, Fed 4 (excluding 2 running-down-drop-shot errors forced by Guga, which practically, belong more in this category than net points with his drop shots being played from the back)

Total aggressively ended points - both 18

Good balance from Guga in degree of aggression, and he does it off both wings. 5 FH winners, 4 BHs. No FH inside-outs, supporting his not overdoing the moving around. Forces errors in about same 50-50 proportion. The wrong footing BHs stand out

Fed’s winners read 11 FH, 3 BH (with 1 of the BHs being a misjudgment from Guga). On positive side, his BH doesn’t give up weak balls to be attacked. But it is looser than Guga’s BH in stock exchanges and doesn’t have the wide placement or variety of direction to be damaging either

Some superb shot-making Fed’s FH, lashing FH winners from near routine positions and onto balls that are not-strong (as opposed to weak) selectively. Effective as it is, he doesn’t overdo it. If anything, tries to get the BH into aggressive game with a few attacking dtl shots, usually missing (or if he makes the shot, its not too challenging for Guga to put back in play)

Excluding Fed’s 5 net UEs -
Attacking UEs - Guga 7, Fed 3
Winner Attempt UEs - Guga 6, Fed 7

In baseline rallies, Fed with just 3 attacking UEs and forcing 4 errors against below-average moving opponent. While hitting 14 winners for 7 errors trying

This is the lack of a middle-attacking gear that sets Fed back. When he does lash a strongly error forcing FH cc wide, it stands out as unusual (for Guga, it would be normal - though that particular shot is probably beyond him to make. At least in this match). Its just his style - in general and in this match

Not necessarily a problem as he takes adds net play to his offence. A good substitute for moderate attacking baseline play
Only wins 9/20 rallying to net though (including serve-volleys and return-approaches, his overall net numbers go to 16/31)

Fed on the ‘volley’ has 6 winners, 4 UEs, 4 FEs (excluding drop shot related stuff from all counts)
Guga on the pass has 3 winners, 6 FEs

Hefty approach shots from Fed, but not overwhelming. So very much his substitute for moderate attacking shots from the back. Guga’s passes firmly, while dipping them down so they’re dropping as Fed makes most volleys

Its tricky to make commanding volleys against, let alone putting them away. And volleys that aren’t put away lead to a stronger pass to handle next time around. Mostly credit to Guga for good passing for how Fed does at net, but room for improvement in Fed’s volleying too

Guga by contrast is 14/16 at net, all rallying there. He comes in from strong positions, often soon after drawing weak return and it’s a sure way to finish points. Comes in and volleys to Fed’s BH which has match high 11 FEs. And of course, has little reason to come in from even positions because he can outlast Fed or attack with his groundies in a way Fed isn’t able to. Mostly good sense on show in Guga’s net numbers - knowing when its best to come in to finish and where to come in to (though it doesn’t great brains to figure that out). Not much of a volley-pass contest and Fed’s BH doesn’t look upto making winning passes even with a good look, let alone the bad ones he gets

All ground UEs
- Guga BH 11
- other 3 shots 15

Fed FH with match high 13 winners (same as all of Guga’s groundies) and best winner/UE differential of -2. Compensated by his BH having match low winners, while being most harmless shot on show. Both Guga’s shots in the middle

Winner/UE differentials -
Fed FH -2
Guga BH -4
Guga FH -9
Fed BH -12
Total - Fed -14, Guga -13

Its all the FEs (Fed 21, Guga 11) that’s the difference between 2 players. Guga able to draw such errors from the back off either side, Fed needing to take net to do so, where Guga’s passing is rather better than Fed’s volleying

Match Progression
3 breaks in a row to get things started. Fed blinks up an error of either side, misses a FH winner attempt and lashes a FH inside-in winner set up by strong FH inside-outs. Guga has his own answering combo - a wide BH cc followed by a line BH forces a sliding FH error to end first game

Fed breaks back to same 30 scoreline, starting with a winning FH cc and finishing with a return to the baseline that eventually leads to a FH inside-out winner at net

And a very good, 10 point game with just 1 UE in it (a neutral FH by Guga) to complete the trio of breaks (first 2 breaks had 3 apiece). Fed’s a touch off in giving up a couple of makeable FEs. After acing away first break point, he serve-volleys for the first time and Guga comes away with a lovely BH lob winner. Couple of points later, Fed can’t handle a reflex BHV to bring up third break point

Guga powerfully command the point with FHs, eventually finishing off with a winning wide cc

No more break points in the set, but things stay on edge. There are 3 8 point holds in the middle (2 of them Guga’s). Guga needing to take net to hold 1 of those deuce games. Plenty of fine shots, with the pick of them being a wonderful, sharply angled FH cc winner from Fed from routine position. Fed’s a little FH reliant (if not dependent), while Guga’s able to control with BHs in both directions. Both players drawing weak returns with good serves, both coming in some. Fed’s movement for wide return is a touch off for a bit, but he rectifies that soon enough. In time, Gguga serves out to 15, with Fed missing runaround FH returns to start and end the game

Second set is also competitive between two players, but easier for the server. Nice third ball FH inside-in winners for both players in their opening holds - Fed’s corner to corner, Guga’s angled but against a deep-ish return

Guga grabs the break after that to go up 2-1. Bad shots by Fed to go down 0-40 (2 third ball UEs - 1 looks like an attempted drop shot - and missing a running-down-drop-shot shot at net he’d reached in good time). Saves 2 break points, but Guga controls the last 1 with dtl shots to set up a nice drop shot and he’s there to putaway Fed’s good get to that with a BHV winner

Only 1 game goes to deuce for rest of set and again, its Guga’s. Gorgeous wide FH cc from routine position by Fed to force error in the game, which he starts with a lashed FH cc return winner. Couple of return UEs keep Fed from getting too close though, and Guga thumps a third ball FH winner to hold, after drawing soft return with his second serve.

He serves out the set awhile later. Lovely, point turning BH dtl/inside-out in the game by Guga that ends with him smashing a winner and Fed gives up BH UE after being on defensive to close it out

While third set stays on serve for longest time (break comes for 3-2), its also the least competitive of the match. Fed seems to lose focus in middle of set with loose errors and questionable shot choices

Such play gets him broken - he misses BH dtl and FH inside-out winner attempts to start the game, and ends with an odd inside-in/down-the-middle third ball FH UE. Follows up in similar game that Guga holds to love (missed 2nd serve return and 2 neutral line BH UEs)

Similar off stuff game after, that Fed’s strained to hold in 14 points, saving 3 break points along the way. Nice BH1/2V winner from just behind service line to start the game, but then the errors spring up. Has to serve-volley and comes to net to keep from being broken though he finally wins the game with a smart, low and wide chip pass; 1 of just 2 net points Guga doesn’t win in the match

No trouble holding for Guga though and he serves out to 30. Fed going for his shots in the game, which is dangerous. Misses a ambitious FH to start, nails BH dtl winner after and adds a FH inside-out later to make things 30-30, before 2 unreturned serves (regulation second serve and a strong first) wrap things up

Summing up, good match and fine showing from Kuerten. His serve is good, he’s not the quickest, but has offensive abilities off both wings, based more on variety of directions than power and knows how and when to best use net play in its stead

Federer has a technical problem in handling high BH returns and his back-court aggression is largely limited to FH and extreme of nature. In other words, he hits winners or he doesn’t - he does not move opponent around or work him over to win points with moderate aggression, the way Kuerten can and does. Instead, he takes net, but Kuerten’s dipping, firm passes is good enough to keep his success in forecourt down

Kuerten’s game is more stable and high percentage and likely to hold up for longer. Adding in Federer’s soft BH returning and a seeming lapse in concentration, that’s more than enough to gain the result

Stats for final between Gaston Gaudio and Guillermo Coria - Match Stats/Report - Gaudio vs Coria, French Open final, 2004 | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
 

Galvermegs

Professional
This was a great match from the former no1 and he played well in the other 2 rounds but was just not fit enough for a major by then. A pretty brave effort given his type of injury.
 

jl809

Legend
BH was good. Maybe you could say it wasn't great though.

We aren't talking about Roddick here.
Sure; it was still good, but it was not fully there yet. It was much better by 06 and controversially I’d argue it stayed better than 04 all the way up until late 09 (aside from the ‘08 Nadal slam matches).

My what if for that is if he had his later peak / late prime BH in 04, he would have been utterly frightening
 
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Galvermegs

Professional
I would say so. Stan’s slams are more spread as he won at three different slams but Guga’s YEC (beating both Sampras and Agassi) his five masters and especially his 43 weeks at No.1 easily outweigh this. Guga is closer to Murray than he is to Stan.
Wawrinka did very well to emerge from federers shadow and carve his own legacy. No one else from brazil had that effect on guga. But i do agree on the stats.
 

Ray Mercer

Hall of Fame
Kuertens’s game was beautiful on clay. His backhand was a thing of beauty. If only we could give Tsitsipas that backhand.
 

Ray Mercer

Hall of Fame
Tsi tsi at least has the better AO and monte carlo records
But he won’t have 3 French Opens and own one of the greatest one handers of all time. It’s still crazy to me how Kuerten could flatten it out and just rip the backhand for winners when he wanted. I would have loved to see how it would hold up against a prime Nadal’s forehand.
 

Galvermegs

Professional
Of course he wont. But lets not kid ourselves that kuerten could adapt or sustain his level season by season and surface by surface..however he was robbed by injury too.
But he won’t have 3 French Opens and own one of the greatest one handers of all time. It’s still crazy to me how Kuerten could flatten it out and just rip the backhand for winners when he wanted. I would have loved to see how it would hold up against a prime Nadal’s forehand.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
BH was good IMO. Maybe you could say it wasn't great though.

We aren't talking about Roddick here.

Do you know what the '03-'04 Canada and Wimby Federer-Roddick matches all have in common?

'03 Wimby
Federer - 16 UEs (7 FH, 6 BH...
Roddick - 14 UEs (9 FH, 5 BH)... with 1 BH at net

'03 Canada
Roddick 19 UEs (14 FH, 5 BH)
Federer 21 UEs (9 FH, 11 BH...

'04 Wimby
Federer 29 UEs (13 FH, 13 BH...
Roddick 39 UEs (27 FH, 9 BH… with 1 BH at net

'04 Canada
Federer 15 UEs (7 FH, 7 BH...
Roddick 28 UEs (18 FH, 6 BH...

'05 Wimby just missing the main boat, still catching the BH one
Federer 13 UEs (4 FH, 9 BH)
Roddick 20 UEs (13 FH, 5 BH...
 

Galvermegs

Professional
Do you know what the '03-'04 Canada and Wimby Federer-Roddick matches all have in common?

'03 Wimby


'03 Canada


'04 Wimby


'04 Canada


'05 Wimby just missing the main boat, still catching the BH one
That makes sense to me. Roddick was conservative on the backhand. Would love to know how many forced errors off the backhands and how many forced by the backhands respectively. I will never forget fed passing andy off the backhand more often than not to dismantle his net game.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Legend
Wawrinka did very well to emerge from federers shadow and carve his own legacy. No one else from brazil had that effect on guga. But i do agree on the stats.
Yea but same number of slams, absolutely nothing beats 43 more weeks at number one (especially if the other has 0), and a YEC. On top, Guga has 4 more masters. It is as much of a slam dunk as it can be under the circumstances. Kuerten also beat strong competition in his wins, so even Stan’s (admittedly great) wins against Djoko and Nadal won’t do much here.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Do you know what the '03-'04 Canada and Wimby Federer-Roddick matches all have in common?

'03 Wimby


'03 Canada


'04 Wimby


'04 Canada


'05 Wimby just missing the main boat, still catching the BH one
Interesting stat. Always felt when Fed played Roddick he didn't need to try exposing Roddick's BH too much. He just was better at nearly everything so he could even afford to go FH to FH.
 

Galvermegs

Professional
Yea but same number of slams, absolutely nothing beats 43 more weeks at number one (especially if the other has 0), and a YEC. On top, Guga has 4 more masters. It is as much of a slam dunk as it can be under the circumstances. Kuerten also beat strong competition in his wins, so even Stan’s (admittedly great) wins against Djoko and Nadal won’t do much here.
I am saying guga is better.. but there is a raw macho electric charisma that endears me even more to stan. Guga is carnival and hearts on clay but i prefer stans take no **** persona. I wasnt arguing over stats more about the story and the self improvement/late bloomer story which is rare. Stan and magnus ,(a notable rival of kuerten) have been a dream team.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Interesting stat. Always felt when Fed played Roddick he didn't need to try exposing Roddick's BH too much. He just was better at nearly everything so he could even afford to go FH to FH.

Is there anyone whose BH Federer tried to expose?

He just wasn't a "breakdown-opponents-FH/BH" kind of player. More a draw-weak-ball (usually with FH) and strike-finishing shot (usually a FH winner). And sometimes skipping the first part

Only times I've seen him actively pursue BH-BH rallies, seems like he's fooling around, testing himself (with luxury of superior serve-return combo to fall back on if things start going badly)

He implements BH-BH with Coria and Gasquet in their Hamburg finals. With Gasquet in their Canada final too. Both guys with particularly good BHs and better BHs than FHs
Does not get the better of those exchanges in any of those matches

I haven't looked at Roddick too closely (and am not planning to), but have found little to support common takes of his having a weak BH
Damaging FH + Steady BH is a standard baseline game. For a player of that type, UEs is most important thing to look at for their BHs

Small sample size (and against just 1 opponent, whose not renowed for a steady BH either) makes drawing strong conclusion from these matches unwise. But they show what they show... its not his BH that's the problem

If anything, they point to Roddick toning down the aggression on his FH to be understandable move. Match high UEs in all the matches

The damage it does being kept in check by Fed not being pushed into defensive by it is probably a specific to Federer problem and my guess would be the points won aggressively/points lost via aggressive errors diffential against most opponents would be good for him against most opponents

That makes sense to me (Roddick having match low BH UEs in series of matches). Roddick was conservative on the backhand

how many baseliners aren't conservative with their BHs? How many habitually have a lot of BH winners?

Nalbandian. Wawrinka. Maybe Nishikori
Djokovic doesn't typically have a lot of BH winners. Neither did Agassi

not making UEs isn't something that comes out well via visual takes, but not making UEs is chief function of most BHs. And since rallies have to end, fewer you make, the more your opponent must be making to end those cc rallies

You won't find many players with lot of BH winners. Assessing BH players by stats is mostly about comparing UE counts

But I get your point. Roddick wasn't one to control or lead points with his BH, and it was largely a reactive shot that he played when he had to. Agassi and Djokovic among others habitually turn to BH to gain comfort and control points (which is hard to seperate from winning them, which they also end up doing most of the time, by staying steady enough to win them by drawing errors)

Roddick's steady enough, but don't think he was in habit of pointedly looking to outlast opponents BH-BH to win points. He liked his wind-up FHs much more

Would love to know how many forced errors off the backhands and how many forced by the backhands respectively

on top of the page in this side of forum is a pinned thread "Match Stats/Report - Catalogue"

You'll find BH FEs for all the matches. Errors forced by BH isn't there unless specifically mentioned in the report

Sound guideline to start with is Errors Forced by shot is proportionate to winners by the shot
e.g guy with winners of 5 FH, 2 BH, 3 volleys has also forced 20 errors, then the error forcing shots is roughly 10 FH, 4 BH, 6 volleys
 

Galvermegs

Professional
how many baseliners aren't conservative with their BHs? How many habitually have a lot of BH winners?

Nalbandian. Wawrinka. Maybe Nishikori
Djokovic doesn't typically have a lot of BH winners. Neither did Agassi

not making UEs isn't something that comes out well via visual takes, but not making UEs is chief function of most BHs. And since rallies have to end, fewer you make, the more your opponent must be making to end those cc rallies

You won't find many players with lot of BH winners. Assessing BH players by stats is mostly about comparing UE counts

But I get your point. Roddick wasn't one to control or lead points with his BH, and it was largely a reactive shot that he played when he had to. Agassi and Djokovic among others habitually turn to BH to gain comfort and control points (which is hard to seperate from winning them, which they also end up doing most of the time, by staying steady enough to win them by drawing errors)

Roddick's steady enough, but don't think he was in habit of pointedly looking to outlast opponents BH-BH to win points. He liked his wind-up FHs much more



on top of the page in this side of forum is a pinned thread "Match Stats/Report - Catalogue"

You'll find BH FEs for all the matches. Errors forced by BH isn't there unless specifically mentioned in the report

Sound guideline to start with is Errors Forced by shot is proportionate to winners by the shot
e.g guy with winners of 5 FH, 2 BH, 3 volleys has also forced 20 errors, then the error forcing shots is roughly 10 FH, 4 BH, 6 volleys
Thats a great response.. more than i hoped for actually (!). Ill have to do some number crunching then with that catalogue.

When i queued overnight for wimbledon one year some other young fans described roddick as having 'no backhand' which i found a bit harsh, as he was certainly no karlovic or (to an extent) rusedski. Indeed he actually played well off both wings in the 2004 wimby final. The year i queued was already the downward slope for his ground game however.

Also i hope you have enjoyed this current years french open. I do think there is less variety than 20 years ago but i still always enjoy the claycourt rallies regardles.
 
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