Match Stats/Report - Kuerten vs Rafter, Cincinnati final, 2001

[Waspsting]

Gustavo Kuerten beat Pat Rafter 6-1, 6-3 in the Cincinnati final, 2001 on hard court

It was Kuerten’s last Masters title and only one off clay. He’d finished his semi-final with Tim Henman earlier in the day, playing little more than 1 set of that match. Rafter had recently finished runner-up in Canada also

Kuerten won 58 points, Rafter 41

Rafter serve-volleyed off all serves bar 1 second serve

(Note: I’m missing first 4 points of the match - 2 won by each player. Deducing from stats presented on broadcast, 3 were first serves, none were double faults or aces. Deduced data regarding unreturned serves and return rates and Rafter’s first serve percentage have been excluded from stats)

Serve Stats
Kuerten...
- 1st serve percentage (27/49) 55%
- 1st serve points won (22/27) 81%
- 2nd serve points won (13/22) 59%
- Aces 8
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (21/49) 43%

Rafter...
- 1st serve percentage (25/46) 54%
- 1st serve points won (16/25) 64%
- 2nd serve points won (9/21) 43%
- ?? serve points won (2/4) 50%
- Aces 2
- Double Faults 4
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (14/46) 30%

Serve Patterns
Kuerten served...
- to FH 21%
- to BH 74%
- to Body 4%

Rafter served... 11-29-2
- to FH 26%
- to BH 69%
- to Body 5%

Return Stats
Kuerten made...
- 28 (5 FH, 23 BH)
- 4 Winners (1 FH, 3 BH)
- 12 Errors, all forced...
- 12 Forced (4 FH, 8 BH)
- Return Rate (28/42) 67%

Rafter made...
- 26 (8 FH, 18 BH), including 3 runaround FHs & 7 return-approaches
- 13 Errors, comprising...
- 6 Unforced (3 FH, 3 BH), including 1 runaround FH & 1 return-approach attempt
- 7 Forced (2 FH, 5 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- Return Rate (26/47) 55%

Break Points
Kuerten 4/6 (4 games)
Rafter 0/2 (1 game)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Kuerten 15 (6 FH, 8 BH, 1 FHV)
Rafter 12 (2 BH, 4 FHV, 5 BHV, 1 OH)

Kuerten had 10 passes - 4 returns (1 FH, 3 BH) & 6 regular (2 FH, 4 BH)
- FH return - 1 cc
- BH returns - 2 cc, 1 dtl
- regular FHs - 1 cc, 1 inside-out at net
- regular BHs - 1 cc, 2 dtl, 1 running-down-drop-shot cc at net

- regular (non-pass) FHs - 2 inside-out, 1 inside-in/cc
- regular BH - 1 dtl/inside-out

Rafter had 10 from serve-volley points
- 7 first volleys (4 FHV, 3 BHV)
- 1 second volley (1 BHV)
- 2 third volleys (1 BHV, 1 OH)

- BH passes - 2 dtl

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Kuerten 11
- 5 Unforced (5 BH)
- 6 Forced (2 FH, 4 BH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 46

Rafter 16
- 8 Unforced (1 FH, 3 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 8 Forced (3 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 BHOH)... with 1 BH running-down-drop-shot
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 52.5

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Kuerten was...
- 7/9 (78%) at net, including...
- 2/2 serve-volleying, comprising...
- 1/1 off 1st serve and...
- 1/1 off 2nd serve

Rafter was...
- 28/48 (58%) at net, including...
- 23/39 (59%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 14/23 (61%) off 1st serve and..
- 9/16 (56%) off 2nd serve
---
- 5/7 (71%) return-approaching

Match Report
Quick, bright little match. Kuerten hits some lovely, dipping returns and clean passes, and Rafter isn’t upto handling Kuerten’s serve. Court is quick, with healthy bounce

Rafter serve-volleys just shy of 100% of the time (stays back once). His serve is just average, particularly so for Guga, whose standing well back to receive it. From back there, Guga gets needle threading returns off or, has them dipping to just below the net in a tricky arc

Good lot of 4 return winners and precisely struck follow-up winning passes is enough to get breaks

Meanwhile, Guga’s big serve seems to be just too big for Rafter to deal with. 43% unreturned rate, with 30% first serves being aces for Guga. Otherwise, even in swing zone serves draws jarred errors

In winning US Open finals in 1997 and 1998, Rafter’s handling of of raw pace when returning had been exemplary. This might be a slightly quicker court, but neither of those had been slow. 3-4 years is a long time in tennis

Rafter’s chip-charge returning is a big success though. And they’re not particularly good returns. He wins 5/7 on the play

Match is 2 part. 6-1 scoreline is just the thrashing it looks like - Guga banging down aces and other serves that don’t back, while regularly getting winning returns and passes off - QED
Second set is competitive. All but 1 service game for both players is easy - Guga breaks when he gets into a game, Rafter can’t convert either of his break points, and Guga wins

Match long, Rafter with 30% unreturned serves. By set, its 19% in first set and 45% in second. Just a couple of aces or 8% of first serves. He doesn’t serve powerfully, he doesn’t get serves wide. Guga can comfortably cover ball and have his cut at it

Misses a few in trying to avoid the at net Rafter. The serves themselves are rarely challenging. 67% return rate, with clean, dipping returns is good to break behind. Rafter typically gets returns that have arced just below the net. Still a routine volley, but the arc makes it a tad tricker than straight line returns

Rafter on volley has 10 winners, 4 UEs, 5 FEs
Guga on pass has 10 winners (including 4 returns), and 6 FEs (excluding return errors)

That’s a win for Guga. Rafter not placing his normal volleys to net high stuff too well, giving Guga fairly comfortable look at follow up pass. But he goes with the drop volley more often to putaway first volley. Looks nice. Is nice. Gets a little predictable, and on one occasion, a ready Guga runs up to angle away a running-down-drop-shot winner at net

Guga wins his all 9 first serve point in first set (7 unreturned - 3 aces) and extends that to 15 in second set (6 more unreturned - 3 more aces). So 13/15 first serve points not coming back from the start @Moose Malloy

It’s a good serve, but not this good. Pace seemingly just too much for Rafter to handle. The aces aren’t all that wide either. Top returner moving well could possibly get them back in play, let alone get racquet on ball

 

[Waspsting]

After that, Rafter returns better against first serves (it’d be hard to return worse), usually making a soft return. Looks like Rafter the returner is just out of his weight class for pace here. John McEnroe used to get similarly overwhelmed by people like Boris Becker and even all-out Ivan Lendl

Slighlty surprisingly, he does well chip-charging though, winning 5/7. It’d be surprising at anytime, but doubly so because those returns aren’t particularly good and Guga has stable positioned time to get the pass off, if not excess time to line them up

Brings home how effective his return position is because he does seem to have comfy time to return-pass by contrast - and does it better than the not-excessive time (much more apt description than ‘rushed’) third ball passes he doesn’t do well on

Rafter stays back off just one second serve. Gets a belted wide, deep return that he can only fend back on it, and Guga commands to take net and finish with FHV winner - his only volley winner of the match

All other baseline-baseline starting points are on Guga’s serve, usually off a weak or at least, not strong return. Guga takes charge and does what he likes on them

Flashy, Guga stuff - he’s got 4 baseline-to-baseline winners, Rafter has 0
Baseline UEs - Guga 5, Rafter 4

Guga winning 59% second serve points. Sans 2 double faults and Rafter’s chip-charges, that shifts to 11/13 or 85%. Thorough domination from back from Guga - dispatching winners, coming in commandingly to finish (he loses just 2/7 points rallying to net, both 2 improbable passing winners). Rallies are short, and even there, Rafter is pegged back by force of Guga’s shots. Like on the return, looks more like Rafter’s not great at handling force than Guga’s force being overwhelming. Its not exactly gentle, but not overwhelming either

Rafter can only rally to net twice (once forced), losing both. Guga can do it anytime he wants, and only unlikely passing winners denies him a perfect 9/9. But he can also beat Rafter down (Rafter’s shot tolerance not great) or lash winners too

Match Progression
2 hold to 30 to start off. Guga loses 2 service points to a chip-charge and by double faulting. Then Guga reels off next 5 games with 3 breaks to take the set

First break is 10 point game, and points Guga win includes dispatched FH inside-out pass winner from net after drawing a very weak 1/2volley with return, forced BHOH that Rafter does well to get a racquet on, forced wide FHV error after drawing another 1/2volley first up. To end matters, Guga with passing winners from FH cc (after a not well placed first volley) and a ripped BH cc return

Next break is in 8 point game, beging and ending with double faults and an easy BHV inside-out miss. Rafter generally likes volleying line and inside-out. 2 BH dtl passing winners bring up the break point - a first return and a regular one against another not great first volley

2 missed FHVs (1 wide FE, 1 under-net UE) and double fault get Rafter into trouble enxt go around. He stays back on break point but gets an even tougher third ball than he was getting coming forward - a belted ball, wide on the baseline that he manages to poke back on the stretch Guga powers his way to net and putsaway easy FHV to open court to end the set

All but 2 easy holds in the second set
Guga holds a 12 point game, saving 2 break points. That aside, loses 5 points for 4 holds
Rafter is broken once. Sans that, loses 2 points in 3 holds, winning mostly on back of freebies

5 easy holds before Guga breaks to 30. Wide return draws forces BHV error, and regulation FHV miss starts process off. Again, Guga finishes with consectuive passing winners - FH cc return and BH running-down-drop-shot cc at net. The latter is very well played, with Rafter having regularly dropped first volleys for winners all match, including first point of the game

He has a hard time consolidating, with Rafter for only time getting into return game. Guga’s FH inside-out looks more likely to go for a winner than Rafter somehow finding a BH passing winner as he does for 15-15 before Guga misses routine third ball BH next point. A chip-charge brings up first break point, which is erased by a dispatched third ball FH inside-out winner from mid-court

Rafter wisely enough looks for aggressive returns and groundies, but misses a move-over FH inside-in winner attempt on his second break point. He voluntarily rallies his way to net for only time in match (other approach is a forced one), but can’t make a wide FHV to give up the game

Couple of Guga BH UEs in the serve-out, to go with a lovely, third ball BH dtl/inside-out winner makes it 30-30, before he hammers down his 8th ace and second serve-volleys to draw a return error to wrap things up

Summing up, quick fire little match of Rafter serve-volleying and Kuerten playing from baseline. Kuerten’s first serve is just too big for Rafter to handle, who doesn’t return well even against second serves, and Kuerten dominates his sevice points, winning points quickly with powerful groundies that he follow sup however he wants (more power groundies to beat out error, a clean winner, coming to net)

On other side, pace and placement of Rafter’s serve leaves Kuerten fairly comfortable time to make return-passes - and he’s precise with them for a set. Hits winners or draws weak volleys that he dispatches with passes off either wing. Rafter scoring with drop volleys, but not great with getting the occasional classic volley wide or punched hard either

Briskly easy first set for Kuerten, but a competitive second, disguised by how quick the games are

@Drob

 

[Galvermegs]

The loss to pavel in Canada was a surprise for sure. But the way kuerten played this event, it was no real shock rafter was 2nd place once again here. Perhaps could have been closer.
Kuerten is a great 'what if' story in tennis. Could have had 5 or 6 majors in total if he'll stayed healthy but that in itself is assuming he figured out how to play better in the latter rounds of the hardcourt events. If he never worked on his returning at Wimbledon that would remain his least likely prospect

Sadly as it stood he never returned to the level of cincy 2001 after the season was over.

 

[Mustard]

2001 Cincinnati was some tournament for Kuerten. He beat, in succession, Roddick, Haas, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Henman and Rafter.

 

[Galvermegs]

2001 Cincinnati was some tournament for Kuerten. He beat, in succession, Roddick, Haas, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Henman and Rafter.

Most players in good form. I was desperate to see the goran match but where i was at the time had poor coverage..i didnt miss much and even if goran was honest in saying he couldnt cope with the floodlights due to his eye issues.. it was one of his worst efforts that summer.

 

[Drob]

The loss to pavel in Canada was a surprise for sure. But the way kuerten played this event, it was no real shock rafter was 2nd place once again here. Perhaps could have been closer.
Kuerten is a great 'what if' story in tennis. Could have had 5 or 6 majors in total if he'll stayed healthy but that in itself is assuming he figured out how to play better in the latter rounds of the hardcourt events. If he never worked on his returning at Wimbledon that would remain his least likely prospect

Sadly as it stood he never returned to the level of cincy 2001 after the season was over.

Kuerten had just turned 25 when the hip injury occurred. It might have occurred a few weeks earlier, when he retired in the first set of the Indianapolis final against Rafter. Guga was defending champion. (You may remember Indianapolis was a highly regarded "500" - frequently voted by the players as favorite tournament of its level). Perhaps that was the injury. Perhaps it was aggravated in his USO QF loss to Kafelnikov (taking absolutely nothing away from Kafelnikov - I don't know, and besides Kafelnikov was a great player and rival of Guga's). I say this because after 2001 USO, Guga goes 1-8 for the rest of the season. And something is clearly wrong physically, because this guy who was so stealthily competitive underneath the laid-back, beach boy exterior, actually popped a bottle of champagne after losing his third consecutive ATP Finals RR match. He was just happy the season was over. Of course, 2002-2004 were three seasons of struggle, maybe humilation, and by 2005 he is effectively out of the game.

Outdoor hardcourts? He could have been a contender. Six or more SF or better at outdoor hard Masters 1000. The Cincy march to championship. The wonderful Key Biscayne Final against Pete. the 2000 Indy champs was a good one. To meet Pete, he beat Andre, so he came pretty close to being the first to beat Andre and Pete in the same tournament six months before he became the first player to beat Andre and Pete in the same tournament. He made three M 1000 finals on outdoor hard: Rogers Cup, beating World No. 2 Michael Chang en route; aforesaid Key Biscayne, beating Agassi en route; IW, beating then-No. 3 Roger Federer en route.

He would have come close to a hardcourt Slam champs. Oddly, he seemed to look to Australian. To be sure, the surface should have suited him. But his record there was poor. I remember the US media commenting that he had his priorities wrong. This was in 2001, before Cincy. After Cincy, Guga was not quite a favorite for USO, but was almost everyone's favorite dark horse for the title. He had to play a grueling, near-to-losing 3rd rounder against Max Mirnyi, who, oddly, had defeated Guga at Hamburg earlier that season. He got through and beat Costa or Corretja easily, then lost badly in three sets to Kafelnikov. Then, good-bye career.

As for Wimbledon, you are right. Guga was almost not interested in Wimbledon. He was, as said, extremely competitive. But I don't think that reached to grass. there were years he did not even participate.


P.S. did I say Indianapolis won the player's favorite award for 500 category - only 11 times. weird what happened to the tournament, does anybody know? It was taken off the schedule in 2016 because of the Olympics. And it never came back.

 

[Drob]

As to Rafter and Kuerten, the two best guys on the tour in those days, they had an interesting H2H, if not quite a rivalry.

4-4. Guga took the big finals at Rome and Cincinnati. Rafter beat Kuerten twice at Davis Cup. Of course, it was a great contrast of styles. But just the combined charisma was almost too much of a good thing.

These two really were the best. Separately, they set a standard for philanthropy that later (and contemporary) players had to deal with. They were possibly the two most popular players with the public, save maybe Pete and Andre (and, curiously, Safin). And, obviously, they were well liked by other players. Kuerten won the "Fan's Favorite" award in 2000. Rafter received the Stefan Edberg Sportsmanship Award four times!!!! And, of course, both men won the Arthur Ashe Humanitarian Award.

 

[Drob]

6-1, 6-3

This is weird. IW, Key Biscayne were five-set finals in 2001. MC, Italian and German Opens were five-set finals. Stuttgart and Paris were five-set finals. But Rogers Cup and Cincy were three-set finals. And it looks like 2000 and 2002 were the same.

 

[Galvermegs]

Yes guga's hip injury was truly something to derail him. Ferrero took the mantle of king of clay for for a couple of seasons. And then coria briefly.
A shame we never saw kuerten handle rafa.

 

[Waspsting]

To meet Pete, he beat Andre, so he came pretty close to being the first to beat Andre and Pete in the same tournament six months before he became the first player to beat Andre and Pete in the same tournament.

Few others who did this earlier (none in semis then final), but all title winning runs

Magnus Larsson '94 Grand Slam Cup
Richard Krajicek '98 Stuttgart
Alex Corretja '98 Year End Championship

I like cute trivia, like beating 2 big players in same tournament but will add that Agassi and Sampras... don't really fit that bill (as opposed to hype based stuff, which they both have in abundance)

Something like beating Lendl and Wilander in same clay event like Noah did - great
Beating some combo of Connors, Borg or Mac outside clay - great
Beating Becker and Edberg on grass like Stich did - great
Beating Nadal and Djokovic on clay as Alcaraz did - great

Now Agassi and Sampras. Most of the time, Sampras was king of the hill and Agassi was a generic top-tenner
If they weren't both Americans and if Agassi hadn't been hyped so very much (largely because he's American)... don't see why beating him, along with Sampras in same tournament is realistically any more noteworthy than beating Sampras and say, Kafelnikov

 

[Galvermegs]

Few others who did this earlier (none in semis then final), but all title winning runs

Magnus Larsson '94 Grand Slam Cup
Richard Krajicek '98 Stuttgart
Alex Corretja '98 Year End Championship

I like cute trivia, like beating 2 big players in same tournament but will add that Agassi and Sampras... don't really fit that bill (as opposed to hype based stuff, which they both have in abundance)

Something like beating Lendl and Wilander in same clay event like Noah did - great
Beating some combo of Connors, Borg or Mac outside clay - great
Beating Becker and Edberg on grass like Stich did - great
Beating Nadal and Djokovic on clay as Alcaraz did - great

Now Agassi and Sampras. Most of the time, Sampras was king of the hill and Agassi was a generic top-tenner
If they weren't both Americans and if Agassi hadn't been hyped so very much (largely because he's American)... don't see why beating him, along with Sampras in same tournament is realistically any more noteworthy than beating Sampras and say, Kafelnikov

You dont seem the biggest agassi fan. He did have the career golden slam. And also did get the yec in his career. Not even the big 3 did all that although they overall outrank him comfortably.

I think the point is overall career accomplishements. And kurten beat andre after he was the first man to win all majors for many years.

Agassi is arguably a better player, with a higher peak level compared to the 6 slammers you named, on more surfaces than not. Your example of stich is true enough except there is no way that sampras had the mental meltdown that boris did (later the german claimed he was diatracted by wanting to win a 4th trophy)

 

[Drob]

Few others who did this earlier (none in semis then final), but all title winning runs

Magnus Larsson '94 Grand Slam Cup
Richard Krajicek '98 Stuttgart
Alex Corretja '98 Year End Championship

I like cute trivia, like beating 2 big players in same tournament but will add that Agassi and Sampras... don't really fit that bill (as opposed to hype based stuff, which they both have in abundance)

Something like beating Lendl and Wilander in same clay event like Noah did - great
Beating some combo of Connors, Borg or Mac outside clay - great
Beating Becker and Edberg on grass like Stich did - great
Beating Nadal and Djokovic on clay as Alcaraz did - great

Now Agassi and Sampras. Most of the time, Sampras was king of the hill and Agassi was a generic top-tenner
If they weren't both Americans and if Agassi hadn't been hyped so very much (largely because he's American)... don't see why beating him, along with Sampras in same tournament is realistically any more noteworthy than beating Sampras and say, Kafelnikov

Thank you for the info on Larsson, Krajicek and Corretja. I did not know that and wondered there might be others. But I was also thinking back-to-back. And I was also just waxing romantic. Good to know about these others. I knew Corretja beat Sampras in that wild tournament. Pete made quite a big deal about Guga's feat in his autobiography, and I loosely assumed it had been some years since that happened.

Have to second Galvermegs to some extent. I mean if you are saying Agassi is just a top-10er of his day, then what can I say? If you mean he was not as strong indoors . . . well, yeah, compared to outdoor hardcourts. But golly gee - two Paris Masters (one, in 1994, I have as the top "Masters" tournament of the year) ; Madrid Masters Indoor; YEC and 3 YEC finals and 10 other indoor titles. So, no, it is not like, for example, beating Tilden and Cochet SF & F in 1928 Wimbledon (Lacoste); beating Laver & Rosewall SF & F (Gimeno 8x; elder Gonzalez about 6x and Buchholz 3x); nor perhaps Edberg & Becker at that place and that time (Stich); Nadal and Federer SF & F 2009 USO, or Djokovic & Federe 2012 Olympics; or, best of all, Gonzalez, Hoad, Trabert, Sedgman and Rosewall (w Rex Hartwig thrown in there somewhere to boot) (Segura 1958 Msters Pro RR). But then I never said or implied it was one of the most remarkable achievements in that vein. Merely, quite remarkable, that's all.

If you simply say Agassi is overrated, I agree. He has no business showing up in these idiot media lists of top-10 greatest of all time. Way overrated. But top-20 in history? Maybe. I actually have him 20th at the moment.

 

[Waspsting]

You dont seem the biggest agassi fan.

I am the biggest fan - loved his style of play, especialy seeing this smaller guy take it to the trees and serve-bots, bashing them back quicker than they came

And valued highly his being a contender (meaning, a threat for any title) on all the surfaces, uniquely

I like to think my personal fandom doesn't interfere with my judgment

Have to second Galvermegs to some extent. I mean if you are saying Agassi is just a top-10er of his day, then what can I say? If you mean he was not as strong indoors . . . well, yeah, compared to outdoor hardcourts. But golly gee - two Paris Masters (one, in 1994, I have as the top "Masters" tournament of the year) ; Madrid Masters Indoor; YEC and 3 YEC finals and 10 other indoor titles. So, no, it is not like, for example, beating Tilden and Cochet SF & F in 1928 Wimbledon (Lacoste); beating Laver & Rosewall SF & F (Gimeno 8x; elder Gonzalez about 6x and Buchholz 3x); nor perhaps Edberg & Becker at that place and that time (Stich); Nadal and Federer SF & F 2009 USO, or Djokovic & Federe 2012 Olympics; or, best of all, Gonzalez, Hoad, Trabert, Sedgman and Rosewall (w Rex Hartwig thrown in there somewhere to boot) (Segura 1958 Msters Pro RR). But then I never said or implied it was one of the most remarkable achievements in that vein. Merely, quite remarkable, that's all.

If you simply say Agassi is overrated, I agree. He has no business showing up in these idiot media lists of top-10 greatest of all time. Way overrated. But top-20 in history? Maybe. I actually have him 20th at the moment.

I wasn't thinking from perspective of Agassi's standing in media lists. Don't have much of an opinion on it either - solid top tenner of for pure Open Era lot is fine by me

Specifically, I was thinking about the Agassi-Sampras rivalry - going off your observation about the feat of beating both of them in the same tournament

Media lists have them up with Borg-McEnroe and Federer-Nadal don't they?
Media lists also probably neglect/undervalue Connors & Lendl being added to Borg and Mac, and Djokovic's rivaliries with Fed and Nadal

So, the Agassi-Sampras rivalry

if you are saying Agassi is just a top-10er of his day, then what can I say?

These are the year end rankings through the 90s - Sampras first, Agassi second

90 - 5 and 4
91 - 6 and 10
92 - 3 and 9
93 - 1 and 24
94 - 1 and 2
95 - 1 and 2
96 - 1 and 8
97 - 1 and 110
98 - 1 and 6
99 - 3 and 1

I'll add that in '94 Agassi was a distant 2. And his back-to-back 2s were a product of 1 years worth of tennis (Fall 94-Fall 95), not 2 years

The other great rivalries combos of Connors, Borg, Mac and Lendl and combos of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic featured those guys competing year in, year out, year after year for the top spots

What does the above look more like
2 guys competiting for top spot year in, year out, year after year?
Or the King vs a Generic Top 10er?

If I present those facts, while blanking out the names (to control for whatever hype that's been made), and asked people where this rivalry stands among the best in history, what would a reasonable answer be?

 

[MissileBackHand99]

Yes guga's hip injury was truly something to derail him. Ferrero took the mantle of king of clay for for a couple of seasons. And then coria briefly.
A shame we never saw kuerten handle rafa.

Would've loved to have seen veteran, uninjured Guga play an 18-19 y/o Nadal in 2004-2005. I hate that his injuries derailed him right as he was at the top of his game and the sport (along with Agassi in 2001 IMO). One of my personal favorite matches of Guga's is when he played Pete in the Finals of Miami in 2000. His beautiful backhand was giving Sampras fits in that match

Ferrero indeed did take the mantle, and I remember everyone expecting him to win at RG in 2002. Al Costa beating him was a shock, given where Costa and Ferrero were at in their respective careers at that point

And Coria, man....the brief taste we got of Coria vs Nadal in 2005-2006 was soooo tantalizing. I hate that Coria's mental stuff and his off-court issues derailed him. That's always been one of the biggest "what if" rivalries for me with Nadal

 

[MissileBackHand99]

I am the biggest fan - loved his style of play, especialy seeing this smaller guy take it to the trees and serve-bots, bashing them back quicker than they came

And valued highly his being a contender (meaning, a threat for any title) on all the surfaces, uniquely

I like to think my personal fandom doesn't interfere with my judgment




I wasn't thinking from perspective of Agassi's standing in media lists. Don't have much of an opinion on it either - solid top tenner of for pure Open Era lot is fine by me

Specifically, I was thinking about the Agassi-Sampras rivalry - going off your observation about the feat of beating both of them in the same tournament

Media lists have them up with Borg-McEnroe and Federer-Nadal don't they?
Media lists also probably neglect/undervalue Connors & Lendl being added to Borg and Mac, and Djokovic's rivaliries with Fed and Nadal

So, the Agassi-Sampras rivalry


These are the year end rankings through the 90s - Sampras first, Agassi second

90 - 5 and 4
91 - 6 and 10
92 - 3 and 9
93 - 1 and 24
94 - 1 and 2
95 - 1 and 2
96 - 1 and 8
97 - 1 and 110
98 - 1 and 6
99 - 3 and 1

I'll add that in '94 Agassi was a distant 2. And his back-to-back 2s were a product of 1 years worth of tennis (Fall 94-Fall 95), not 2 years

The other great rivalries combos of Connors, Borg, Mac and Lendl and combos of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic featured those guys competing year in, year out, year after year for the top spots

What does the above look more like
2 guys competiting for top spot year in, year out, year after year?
Or the King vs a Generic Top 10er?

If I present those facts, while blanking out the names (to control for whatever hype that's been made), and asked people where this rivalry stands among the best in history, what would a reasonable answer be?

Well there's a nice summary, devoid of any kind of actual CONTEXT. Let's take 1993 for example--Agassi (still not in his best shape and partying hard) has wrist surgery and misses the Fall season (after a shocking 1st round exit at the USO). He gets a great coach in Brad Gilbert (changing the course of his career) in '94 and gets serious with his trainer, Gil Reyes. Has a terrific summer (post Wimby), winning Canada and the USO. Beats Sampras in an excellent match at Bercy in the SFs, and wins there as well in the Finals

He didn't play 4 Slams a year until 1995. Late '94 through '95 was the zenith of their great rivalry. And Pete/Andre are what made tennis "cool" for the younger gen in America in the 90s...Year-End Rankings be damned. It's also hard to quantify Agassi by rankings, as he's someone who was forced to play the game by his domineering father, and thus didn't love the game until later in his career. His marriage issues in '97 is what really made him choose to let his ranking drop and work at that part of his life. He re-dedicated himself from the ground up in late-97 and early 98 by playing Challenger matches and was back to the top of the world by '99. Pete/Andre was the main drawing card for men's tennis for the majority of the 90s. It damn sure wasn't "The King vs a Generic Top 10er". Again, you have to look at Agassi's career through it's proper context. His journey was very human, full of ups and downs. That being said, he still won 60 titles, 8 Slams. The Career Golden Slam, 17 M1000 titles, etc.

 

[Waspsting]

Well there's a nice summary, devoid of any kind of actual CONTEXT. Let's take 1993 for example--Agassi (still not in his best shape and partying hard) has wrist surgery and misses the Fall season (after a shocking 1st round exit at the USO). He gets a great coach in Brad Gilbert (changing the course of his career) in '94 and gets serious with his trainer, Gil Reyes. Has a terrific summer (post Wimby), winning Canada and the USO. Beats Sampras in an excellent match at Bercy in the SFs, and wins there as well in the Finals

He didn't play 4 Slams a year until 1995. Late '94 through '95 was the zenith of their great rivalry. And Pete/Andre are what made tennis "cool" for the younger gen in America in the 90s...Year-End Rankings be damned. It's also hard to quantify Agassi by rankings, as he's someone who was forced to play the game by his domineering father, and thus didn't love the game until later in his career. His marriage issues in '97 is what really made him choose to let his ranking drop and work at that part of his life. He re-dedicated himself from the ground up in late-97 and early 98 by playing Challenger matches and was back to the top of the world by '99. Pete/Andre was the main drawing card for men's tennis for the majority of the 90s. It damn sure wasn't "The King vs a Generic Top 10er". Again, you have to look at Agassi's career through it's proper context. His journey was very human, full of ups and downs. That being said, he still won 60 titles, 8 Slams. The Career Golden Slam, 17 M1000 titles, etc.

Awesome post

Thank you for the info (players who beat Agassi and Sampras in same tournament) on Larsson, Krajicek and Corretja. I did not know that and wondered there might be others

Another one is Chang in '90 Canada
Much against Sampras is beauty. Haven't seen the Agassi one, but commentators go on about during the Sampras and sounds pretty tense too

 

[Galvermegs]

Well there's a nice summary, devoid of any kind of actual CONTEXT. Let's take 1993 for example--Agassi (still not in his best shape and partying hard) has wrist surgery and misses the Fall season (after a shocking 1st round exit at the USO). He gets a great coach in Brad Gilbert (changing the course of his career) in '94 and gets serious with his trainer, Gil Reyes. Has a terrific summer (post Wimby), winning Canada and the USO. Beats Sampras in an excellent match at Bercy in the SFs, and wins there as well in the Finals

He didn't play 4 Slams a year until 1995. Late '94 through '95 was the zenith of their great rivalry. And Pete/Andre are what made tennis "cool" for the younger gen in America in the 90s...Year-End Rankings be damned. It's also hard to quantify Agassi by rankings, as he's someone who was forced to play the game by his domineering father, and thus didn't love the game until later in his career. His marriage issues in '97 is what really made him choose to let his ranking drop and work at that part of his life. He re-dedicated himself from the ground up in late-97 and early 98 by playing Challenger matches and was back to the top of the world by '99. Pete/Andre was the main drawing card for men's tennis for the majority of the 90s. It damn sure wasn't "The King vs a Generic Top 10er". Again, you have to look at Agassi's career through it's proper context. His journey was very human, full of ups and downs. That being said, he still won 60 titles, 8 Slams. The Career Golden Slam, 17 M1000 titles, etc.

I like agassi's journey for that very reason and can relate more. Just a shame his attitude with umpires was a little questionable. Also he could shaft other players... ivanisevic in miami deserved a bit more time to recover (so andre was using his fitness/health as an offcourt tactic), and when pavel was distracted by his wife giving birth at RG 01 andre didnt want to wait around for playing him later on.

Sampras generally let his racquet do the talking. I do of course remember his mind games with greg at the us open and that may have led to the brits infamous press conference which in turn spurred pete onto great matches in the 2nd week. Also there was the rafter sampras feud but it wasn't bad for giving some life to tennis in a comparatively more serious/reserved era.

 

[Mustard]

I like agassi's journey for that very reason and can relate more. Just a shame his attitude with umpires was a little questionable. Also he could shaft other players... ivanisevic in miami deserved a bit more time to recover (so andre was using his fitness/health as an offcourt tactic), and when pavel was distracted by his wife giving birth at RG 01 andre didnt want to wait around for playing him later on.

I think Ivanisevic was given 45 minutes. Two years earlier, Agassi could have claimed a default win when Sampras didn't take to the court on time for the 1994 Key Biscayne final. Brad Gilbert, in his first tournament as Agassi's coach, was actually telling Agassi to claim the default win. Agassi refused. Sampras won 5-7, 6-3, 6-3.

Ivanisevic in 1996 just had one of those mornings were he woke up with bad neck pain and couldn't move it without it hurting. It's a shame, because I think Ivanisevic would have won, as he was in better form at the time.

 

[buscemi]

Now Agassi and Sampras. Most of the time, Sampras was king of the hill and Agassi was a generic top-tenner

I don't think Agassi was a generic top-tenner much between 1992-2003:

1992: won Wimbledon and the Canadian Open​

1993: YE#24​

1994: won the U.S. Open, the Canadian Open, and Bercy; finished YE#2​

1995: won the Australian Open, Miami, the Canadian Open, and Cincinnati; finished YE#2​

1996: won Miami, Cincinnati, and the Olympics​

1997: YE#110​

1998: YE#6​

1999: won the French Open, the U.S. Open, and Bercy; finished YE#1​

2000: won the Australian Open​

2001: won the Australian Open, Indian Wells, and Miami; finished YE#3​

2002: won Miami, Rome, and Madrid; finished YE#2​

2003: won the Australian Open and Miami; finished YE#4​

I don't see him as a generic top-tenner in any year he won a Major and/or 3 big titles. That knocks out 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.

Of the remaining years, he had his down years with wrist injuries and personal problems in 1993 and 1997 when he was worse and much morse than a generic top-tenner.

That really only leaves 1998 as a year when he was a generic top-tenner, and, even then, he won five titles, made five other finals, and had eight top 10 wins.

 

[Mustard]

That really only leaves 1998 as a year when he was a generic top-tenner, and, even then, he won five titles, made five other finals, and eight top 10 wins.

Outside of the majors, Agassi had an excellent 1998. He started the year as world number 110, and got as high as number 4, before finishing the year at number 6.

 

[Galvermegs]

Well i guess it also depends what the issue was. Maybe if sampras had the same issue and recovery time he couldnt do much himself. Agassi won so many miamis in the end too.. this is the one where he didnt need to ensure a farce of a final. But i am no medical expert either