Match Stats/Report - Nadal vs Djokovic, Rome final, 2021

[Waspsting]

Rafael Nadal beat Novak Djokovic 7-5, 1-6, 6-3 in the Rome final, 2021 on clay

This was Nadal's 10th title at the event. Djokovic was the defending champion and had been going for a 6th title in his personal best for a tournament 11th final. The two had previously met 8 times at the event - Nadal winning 5 ('07, '09, '12, '14, '18 and '19), Djokovic 3 ('11, '14 and '16), including finals in '09, '11, '12, '14 and '19. The two would meet shortly afterward in the French Open semi, with Djokovic winning en route to the title

Nadal won 97 points, Djokovic 94

Serve Stats
Nadal...
- 1st serve percentage (72/96) 75%
- 1st serve points won (47/72) 65%
- 2nd serve points won (11/24) 46%
- Aces 3
- Double Faults 1
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (20/96) 21%

Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (63/95) 66%
- 1st serve points won (41/63) 65%
- 2nd serve points won (15/32) 47%
- Aces 6 (1 not clean)
- Double Faults 4
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (20/95) 21%

Serve Pattern
Nadal served...
- to FH 20%
- to BH 73%
- to Body 7%

Djokovic served...
- to FH 34%
- to BH 65%
- to Body 1%

Return Stats
Nadal made...
- 71 (34 FH, 37 BH), including 10 runaround FHs
- 14 Errors, comprising...
- 3 Unforced (2 FH, 1 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 11 Forced (3 FH, 7 BH)
- Return Rate (71/91) 78%

Djokovic made...
- 75 (22 FH, 53 BH), including 7 runaround FHs
- 17 Errors, comprising...
- 12 Unforced (4 FH, 8 BH)
- 5 Forced (2 FH, 3 BH)
- Return Rate (75/95) 79%

Break Points
Nadal 3/6 (6 games)
Djokovic 3/8 (4 games)

Winners (including returns, excluding aces)
Nadal 34 (23 FH, 8 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OH)
Djokovic 23 (7 FH, 11 BH, 3 FHV, 1 OH, 1 BHOH)

Nadal's FHs - 3 cc (2 passes), 3 dtl, 10 inside-out, 4 inside-in, 1 inside-in/cc and 2 drop shots
- BHs - 3 cc (1 pass), 3 dtl (1 pass), 1 longline and 1 drop shot

Djokovic's FHs - 2 cc, 2 dtl, 1 inside-out, 1 inside-in and 1 drop shot
- BHs - 1 cc, 5 dtl and 5 drop shots

- 1 FHV was swinging, non-net shot and 1 FHV was a pass from near baseline
- 1 OH can reasonably be called a FHV

Errors (excluding returns and serves)
Nadal 50
- 32 Unforced (15 FH, 15 BH, 2 BHV)... with 1 non-net BHV pass attempt
- 18 Forced (7 FH, 10 BH, 1 Back-to-Net)... with 1 BH running-down-drop-shot at net
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 45.9

Djokovic 39
- 32 Unforced (14 FH, 18 BH)
- 7 Forced (5 FH, 1 BH, 1 FHV)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 46.6

(Note 1: all half-volleys refer to such shots played at net. Half -volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke counts)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Nadal was...
- 3/9 (33%) at net, with...
- 0/2 forced back

Djokovic was....
- 16/24 (67%) at net, including...
- 2/3 (67%) serve-volleying, all 1st serves
---
- 2/2 retreated

Match Report
Great match, very close and high quality from start to stop. And interestingly different. Nadal plays an attacking, FH shotmaking based game. Djokovic plays a more classic, strong dual winged neutral rallying based one. Nadal's style of play is unusual and its not the only thing in the match that is

There is no key, outcome determining difference between the two. Match is virtually dead even - and so are a host of numbers that spring out of it. Remarkably so

Points won - Nadal 97, Djoko 94
Points served - Nadal 96, Djoko 95
Break points - Nadal 3/6, Djoko 3/8 (Nadal has them in 6 games to Djoko's 4)

Almost nothing in that, Nadal having break chances in more games giving him little edge. The one game Djoko has break points that he doesn't convert in is the game before Nadal (fantastically) breaks decisively in the final set

1st serve points won - both 65%
2nd serve points won - Nadal 46%, Djoko 47%

Even less nothing in that. Nadal serving at 75% to Djoko's still good 66% does give him slightly advantage

Unreturned serves - Nadal 20/96, Djoko 20/95

Still less nothing in that. Nadal with 1 double fault to Djoko's 4, perhaps gives him hint of an edge. There are large differences in types of unreturned serves and unusual elements in serving and returning for both players (more on that later)

UEs - both 32
UEFIs - Nadal 45.9, Djoko 46.6

Breakdown of UEs...
- Neutral - Nadal 20, Djoko 18
- Attacking - Nadal 5, Djoko 7
- Winner attempts - both 7

I don't think I've seen that close a breakdown of UEs over a match (its also rare for UEs total to be identical, obviously). There are significant implications, given major differences in the way each player attacks, related to the breakdown (more on that later)

Winners - Nadal 34, Djoko 23
Errors forced - Nadal 7, Djoko 18, to yield...
Winners + Errors Forced - Both 41

So absolutely, dead even on both UEs and points ended aggressively
Unreturned serves are identical, with Nadal serving 1 more point
The biggest difference is in double faults - Nadal 1, Djoko 4

Statistically, can a match possibly be closer?
Non-statistically - i.e. across different parts of match - there are differences, but even those are small

Serve & Return
Excellent serving from both - Nadal, unusually strong beyond his norm, while Djoko's is probably normal around the period which is possibly be a career best period
Excellent returning from both - Nadal unusually using runaround FHs for the period, while Djokovic biffs back returns typically but also very unusually, takes to hitting runaround FH returns

In general, Nadal's best serving is hefty of pace but not widely placed. On clay, he tones down the pace for most part, throwing in the heftier ones when he's in spot of bother
Here, he's serving heftily all the time. For him, its very unusual on clay but it goes with his shot-making, end points from half-chances baseline play (which is also highly unusual)

75% first serves in serving that way is good outcome for him. Hefty to powerful serves, but comfortably where Djoko can reach them, as just 3 aces hints at. Serving that can be counted on to draw a few weak returns and few errors - though nothing is particularly challenging to return. Against Djokovic, can count on a few errors, but wouldn't count on too many weak returns - which is how things turn out out

Nadal serving 73% to BH and 20% to FH also tips his hand. He more than anyone knows the patterns of Djokovic's returning (BH a bit more consistent, FH a bit more damaging) and in other matches, has served predominantly to either side, depending on how he plays from the baseline. In general, there is no right or wrong way to serve to Djokovic... he's outstanding off both wings, but along BH more steady, FH more damaging. I'd usually take Nadal serving so much more to BH as sign he's ready to grind things out from the back and feels good about coming up ahead from the back. He does edge the baseline battles, but not at all for being better at grinding things out (more on that later)

79% return rate from Djoko is also good. 12/17 errors being marked unforced less so, and indicating room for improvement, though its not as bad as the number sounds. He misses regulation returns against hefty serves - missing some of those are inevitable. He typically returns deep and firm/hard. Number of returns right to the baseline - a bit more than his norm (his norm isn't low in this regard)

The unusual part of Djoko's returning is all his runaround FHs. He has 7 such shots. In general, Djokovic very rarely runsaround to hit FH returns. Why would he? His BH is steadier and near as damaging. His runaround FH returns are just his norm of force, so he's not going for point ending or even particularly damaging shots when he goes in for it. No real reason for it. It doesn't hurt - and he's in better position near center for it to start the rally so it might even help slightly. But it is outside his norm

On flip side, Djoko serves less powerfully but with better wide placement. He has 6 aces or 1 every 9.5 first serves (Nadal has 1 every 24). With Nadal standing as far back as possible, serves have to be perfectly placed to go for the ace. Beyond that, good lot of wide serves that drag Nadal well wide. Very good spot serving from Djokovic and 66% first-in with that kind of placement reflects a good showing

Nadal returns in his typical, barely-miss-a-return way and just 3/14 errors are unforced. What's unusual is all his runaround FH'ng. He has 10 such shots.

In his early years, Nadal had constantly runaround to hit FH returns against second serves, particularly in ad court, but had largely dropped it from about 2017 onward. Since then, he's been in habit of returning from whichever direction serve is direction. Here, he turns back the clock, and goes in for his earlier years style runaround FH returning

Does it exactly as he used to. Not attacking shots, but heavily spun ones that rise shoulder high on other side. Again, if anything, this would be in line with Nadal looking to outlast and outgrind Djokovic from the back

In nutshell - both players serving and returning well, with some unexpected/unusual things thrown in. Nadal serving heftily constantly is odd for him and he hasn't used runaround FH returns to this extent for at least half a decade. Djokovic hitting spots excellently, returning with typical clout but also unusually, using runaround FHs a bit. Not much, but far more than he's in habit of doing

 

[Waspsting]

Play - Baseline
Playing dynamics of the match up on this surface vary some. As a base starting point, generally Nadal looks to remain consistent, Djokovic is also steady but less consistent off the ground. There's plenty of tough grinding rallies (Nadal usually winning the bulk). Djokovic is the one to take initiative to attack. Neutrally, Djoko's BH is able to handle Nadal's stock FH cc's and often, Djoko looks to particularly test Nadal's BH with beat-down strong FH cc's. Offensively, Djoko likes to attack Nadal's FH corner with combinations of BH cc (not always reliable) and FH inside-outs or with FH dtl's amidst Djoko FH - Nadal BH cc rallies.

In years gone by, Nadal would play his running Djoko around with FH inside-out + FH cc/inside-in combos. More recently, he's kept more central court position and hit meaty BHs and not been overly dependent on FH for offence.

Both players ability to defend varies radically across matches. Nadal at least puts up a fight on the defensive (whether its a losing one or not)

This match is very different though still very high of quality

Nadal is the aggressor to a very surprisingly extent. He doesn't start off that way. The two trade their usual groundstrokes at start, Djoko is particular clean of BH hitting and Nadal turns up the hitting on his regulation FH cc's. And then, goes in for all out, point ending FH shotmaking. This all happens within first 4-5 games (by which times the two have traded breaks) and Nadal continues in this vein all match

He hits FH cc's hard. Not only does Djoko's BH not breakdown, but he hits back cleanly. In virtually all their other matches, Nadal's response is to keep at the FH cc'ng. Here, he just moves aside to whack FH inside-out winners. The balls he hits these off are strong - let alone 'not weak'. I can't recall any clay matches where Nadal has been this adventurous in his shot choices

23 FH winners from Nadal speaks for itself. Djokovic has that many total. Most aren't third ball putaways or set up by the serve or to weak shots from Djokovic. 10 are inside-out and 5 are inside-in based which illustrates a secondary unusual aspect of Nadal's play. Like with the return, he's turned back the clock and gone in for relying on back-away FH'ng to attack. He's been playing dual winged heavy game - the FH naturally more attacking than the BH, but not exclusively dependent on FH - for many years now

Not that he's passive with the BH. His hard hitting BH play is probably on par with his play in the period, but the FH aggression is sky high above probably anything he's tried on clay

23 winners comes to 0.82 per game. Comparing to other choice matches -
- 0.62 in '20 French
- 0.91 '19 Rome (a match Nadal wins easily)
- 0.70 in '06 French
- 0.77 in '07 French
- 0.55 in '08 French
- 0.56 in '12 French
- 0.38 in '12 Monte Carlo
- 0.64 in '13 French

Nadal turns to FH shot making before a clear pattern of Djoko coming out ahead in neutral rallies emerges. But it does emerge. Djoko ends up winning overwhelming bulk of longer rallies. The rallies that develop aren't passive, who-blinks-first affairs either. Hard hitting from both sides, with Djoko as often as not overpowering and outmanuvering Nadal to finish by forcing errors as points ending with a blink (i.e. when Nadal doesn't swat away a winner from regulation position) As noted earlier, though trailing substantially in winners, he's ahead by the same substantial amount in forcing errors. BH is particularly clean hit, in both directions and he's able to force errors with it in both directions.

Defensively, Nadal is vulnerable. His movements are average, slightly above at best. Still masterful in the late 'get' when needed but not able to run down Djoko's wider shots

Lot of Djoko service points begining with serve out wide, return down middle and Djoko with his choice of shot with court open and Nadal well wide and back. Djoko is measured in his third ball attacking shot, staying away from lines, and Nadal's upto running down the ball to keep rally going. Djoko in charge at that point, and he's able to carry on from there to command points to end

Neutrally, the weakest shot is Nadal's BH, which has a short phase of giving up routine errors and is apt to blink in cc rallies without being pressured. Djoko's BH has match high 18 UEs though. Neutrally though, it takes an even share with Nadal's FH. good lot of dtl change ups and some drop shot errors involved in the high count. Also good lot of 11 winners and forcing Nadal's high 18 FEs with both dtl and cc shots

There's scope for Djoko to do a lot more than he tries with the FH. FH cc'ng to Nadal's BH is standard Djoko ploy. With his own power dropping in recent years, he's been more apt to go more wide, less hard to be effective. Here, he's fairly grey in what he does. Hitting is about even between Djoko FH and Nadal BH and for most of match, very little attempt to dictate with the FH by Djoko. For that matter, there's scope for better BH consistency for Nadal, but that's an on-the-day type thing. Djoko's FH play seems more like a choice to not look to dictate, if not attack

Another unusual item is Djoko throwing up 3-4 BH moonballs. Never seen that before. He's chosen the wrong day to try. Nadal slaps 3 away for winners - 2 with FH, 1 dashing to net to smash. Worth a shot, but not with Nadal in this type of mood. He's dispatching strong shots for winners, moonballs aren't likely to go unpunished

Both players doing well with drop shots. Nadal usually doesn't indulge much. Here he throws out the occasional one. Like rest of his FH offensive, not necessarily when ball is there for it, but again, pulls it off. 3 winners on drop shots by Nadal. Djoko has 6 and very few errors trying or leaving Nadal an easy run up shot. Drop shotting plenty is normal for Djoko. Losing more than he wins is almost always the end result against Nadal on clay. Not this day. Having better of rallies, he's able to set up the shots fairly well, but no better than in other matches. Good drop shotting for Djoko

As with everything else in the match, UEs are remarkably balanced
- Djoko FH 14
- Nadal FH & BH 15
- Djoko BH 18

and back to UE breakdown, viz.
- Neutral UEs - Nadal 20, Djoko 18
- Attacking UEs - Nadal 5, Djoko 7
- Winner attempt UEs - both 7

Basically, everything is near even. In context of the match up, that reflects relative wins for each player

Djokovic hanging even in neutral rallies is a win for him - with that side of thing equal, he can overpower Nadal. Some looseness of BH by Nadal has a hand. Generally, Nadal has significant advantage here

Attacking errors is a a win for Djoko, a loss for Nadal, with Djoko forcing 18 errors to Nadal with just 7

Winner attempt errors is a win for both players, but especially for Nadal who has his huge lot of 34 winners. Given the kinds of balls he picks to go after, 7 UEs is remarkably low

Djokovic's game is considerably more sustainable. Going for winners from regulation positions and making them all day isn't likely to last indefinitely - top job from Nadal pulling it off. For that matter, Djoko outplaying Nadal from even positions isn't an expected outcome either.

In short, great play from both players - Nadal moving around to hit FH winners against even strong balls, let alone neutral ones while still being tough in rallies, Djokovic tougher still and winning bulk of rallies by outmanuvering Nadal - and everything coming out just about net even

 

[Waspsting]

Match Progression
Match starts as it continues - with a bang. Djoko breaks to go up 2-0 in a game filled with memorable plays. Djoko somehow intercepting a very powerful Nadal groundstoke at net with a very low FHV close to the baseline for a winner, deep returns by Djoko, Nadal with a third ball FH drop shot winner, Djoko with BH one 2 points later, a drop shot & lob volley combo by Djoko before Nadal misses a BH on break point

Nadal breaks right back. Djoko throws up his first moonball and Nadal races forward to smash it away, having earlier smacked a winning FH pass

Nadal switches to going for point ending FHs right after, usually backing away to do so. And keeps nailing them. Djoko is on point with his BH dtl's - controlled but point finishing shots. There are a number of tough holds with Nadal having slightly better of it. He grabs the decisive break to move ahead 6-5. Djoko double faults on game point, before Nadal dispatches his 2nd FH winner of the game. On break point, Djoko misses his own third ball FH inside-out

Tough serve out for Nadal, being taken to deuce. He finishes the set with another FH inside-out, this time only forcing an error. Nadal serves 43 points in the set, Djoko 42

For a breadstick, the 2nd set is tough too. From 1-1, Djoko reels off next 5 games, with Nadal's BH getting a bit loose. Still, all 3 of Djoko's service holds during the run go to deuce

To start the third, Nadal tightens up his game and cuts back the errors. At 2-2, Djoko plays a very good game with deep returns, groundies and approaches and its everything Nadal can do to hold off 2 break points to hold

Then Nadal breaks to love in as good a return game as it gets. Starting with a FH dtl winner from defensive position, dispatching a FH inside-in after net chord slows balls down and on break point, making the BH dtl pass on the run and stretch

Nadal continues to have better of play for rest of match, which aren't easy for the server. Ending is a tad disappointing, with Djoko missing 2 regulation returns as Nadal serves out to 30 to end the match

Summing up, a great match and close as it gets in all areas - serve, return and off the baseline - both players playing superbly and both at least a bit unusually.

Nadal serves with hefty force constantly (not his norm), brings out the runaround FH return from yesteryears. In play, he's tough from the back, but Djokovic is tougher, and he compensates by dispatching FH winners every which way, usually by running around or backing away to make room for the shot

Djokovic hits his spot with the serve nicely, returns with typical threatening depth while also running around to hit FHs (very unusual for him) and gets better of the back court rallies, with solid play and attacks spring out of that base. His BH being particularly strong

Brilliant FH shotmaking from Nadal, very strong, solid baseline showing from Djokovic and precious little in the outcome - a particularly superb game from Nadal putting him over

 

[Gazelle]

Nadal's forehand was a bulldozer in that one.

 

[goldengate14]

Nadal's forehand was a bulldozer in that one.

That fall he had though i think may have aggravated his foot problem.
That match was a big deal as Nadal wanted a 10th Rome and it tied up the m1000 leaderboard. Next year Nadal must skip Rome. He does not nee anymore than Barcelona as awarm up and Madrid and keeps him.in Spain

 

[BeatlesFan]

He does not nee anymore than Barcelona as awarm up and Madrid and keeps him.in Spain

The flight from Mallorca to Madrid is 341 miles and is a one hour flight. It's only 25 miles more to MC and a 1:10 flight. Rafa's owned MC in the past, it's a more successful tournament for him than Madrid's ever been.

 

[goldengate14]

The flight from Mallorca to Madrid is 341 miles and is a one hour flight. It's only 25 miles more to MC and a 1:10 flight. Rafa's owned MC in the past, it's a more successful tournament for him than Madrid's ever been.

Yes i know but in this Covid world id be advising him where possible avoid foreign travel. His game on clay is still there as he is so natural so he dpes not need much prep. It looks like 21 will win the slam race and Nadal has a golden chance in Paris if he can get fit. this year he overplayed and got hikself injured when it mattered. Hopefully he has learnt a lesson.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Depending on what happens from here on out, it MIGHT end up being Nadal's last epic match.

 

[goldengate14]

Depending on what happens from here on out, it MIGHT end up being Nadal's last epic match.

Hope not as im sure the fall he had due to the line not being nailed down caused his foot problem to flare up. The foot he got caught is the one he now has problems with. If a dodgy line ended a GOAt career that would be terrible.

 

[spottishwood]

Yes i know but in this Covid world id be advising him where possible avoid foreign travel. His game on clay is still there as he is so natural so he dpes not need much prep. It looks like 21 will win the slam race and Nadal has a golden chance in Paris if he can get fit. this year he overplayed and got hikself injured when it mattered. Hopefully he has learnt a lesson.

Dw he'll start his season at MC and play Barca, Madrid, Rome along with belgrade open and then go to Paris. Clay season will feel disrespected if he doesn't play at least 4 of them.

 

[goldengate14]

Dw he'll start his season at MC and play Barca, Madrid, Rome along with belgrade open and then go to Paris. Clay season will feel disrespected if he doesn't play at least 4 of them.

He wont play outside Spaim until RG.

 

[The Big Foe fan]

This match was the exact reason why I thought Djokovic would go a bigger favorite in a potential Djokovic vs nadal match at RG.
My good friend @Waspsting took everything into account except for one factor :- Djokovic had played almost 5 hours of tennis with bare minimum break just 18 hours before this match.

 

[7thKingSlam]

This match was a lot of fun. One of their best on clay, maybe top 5ish, and that's high praise considering this rivalry. Nadal was absolutely brutal offensively, but the speed decline was also clear.

It kinda reminded me of their Rome/RG 2014 matches, both of which I've always found very entertaining. Nadal's movement had declined (though not to this extent) and he began playing a very offensive, forehand-shotmaking style of tennis. Rome 2021 was a potentially even more extreme version of that, but we also saw some very offensive forehand shotmaking in all of their 2020s RG matches from Rafa (the BH was really what let him down at RG2021, until the 4th set where his foot gave out).

The third set break at 2-3 was always ingrained in my head since the match happened. Nadal was so locked in; almost Wawrinka/Thiem levels of aggression but with more consistency.

 

[Third Serve]

This was low-key better than their RG match that year

 

[Third Serve]

This match was a lot of fun. One of their best on clay, maybe top 5ish, and that's high praise considering this rivalry. Nadal was absolutely brutal offensively, but the speed decline was also clear.

It kinda reminded me of their Rome/RG 2014 matches, both of which I've always found very entertaining. Nadal's movement had declined (though not to this extent) and he began playing a very offensive, forehand-shotmaking style of tennis. Rome 2021 was a potentially even more extreme version of that, but we also saw some very offensive forehand shotmaking in all of their 2020s RG matches from Rafa (the BH was really what let him down at RG2021, until the 4th set where his foot gave out).

The third set break at 2-3 was always ingrained in my head since the match happened. Nadal was so locked in; almost Wawrinka/Thiem levels of aggression but with more consistency.

Don’t know if I’d put it in their top 5 due to Nadal’s obvious decline in speed but it was definitely a fun match and one of my favorites from 2021. Definitely a step up from their very odd 2019 final.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Such a good match, so much tension watching it too

 

[tudwell]

Depending on what happens from here on out, it MIGHT end up being Nadal's last epic match.

Just had to wait a few more months.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Just had to wait a few more months.

Nah, well over a year bestie

 

[Biotic]

My good friend @Waspsting took everything into account except for one factor :- Djokovic had played almost 5 hours of tennis with bare minimum break just 18 hours before this match.

Exactly. This match is actually a carbon copy of some 08/09 clay matches where Nadal safely relied on his superior endurance to close them out. Which is the reason all of them, including this one, progressed exactly as one would expect (Ned with his best effort to win the 1st, Djoko giving all he had left in the 2nd/Ned semi tanking it, and Ned running away with the 3rd as Djoko completely runs out of gas). Common denominator in all of the above cases is always the NID end result.

One notable difference is, here the problem wasn't Djoko's endurance per se. Italian amateurs denied Djoko the opportunity to play the final on equal terms via horrendous scheduling (Djoko had to play almost 5 full sets of tennis the day before - 5 hours with Sonego and Tsitsipas with rain delays). It's unfortunate tbh Djoko even decided to play this match, like 2019 edition draw + scheduling hogwash wasn't already enough.

But, since not everything is black and white, there's a good thing that came out of this one, and that is 2021 RG SF. This match might have given Djoko the much needed confidance to push him over the finish line.

 

[7thKingSlam]

Don’t know if I’d put it in their top 5 due to Nadal’s obvious decline in speed but it was definitely a fun match and one of my favorites from 2021. Definitely a step up from their very odd 2019 final.

In no particular order, RG2013, RG2014, Rome 2014, Hamburg 2008 are likely all better, then this one is a contender for that last spot with Rome 2016 probably. Are there any I’m forgetting here? Idk. Madrid 2011, maybe. Oh, Madrid 2009 probably deserves a shout, but I personally find it a bit of a slog to watch.

Regarding Nadal’s speed decline, I feel like he can almost be looked at as a different player in this match. Like a peaking Wawrinka with a more stable backhand, or something. Of course if he used his 2008 tactics here, his athleticism had declined so much he probably would lose 6-2 6-3.

 

[Third Serve]

In no particular order, RG2013, RG2014, Rome 2014, Hamburg 2008 are likely all better, then this one is a contender for that last spot with Rome 2016 probably. Are there any I’m forgetting here? Idk. Madrid 2011, maybe. Oh, Madrid 2009 probably deserves a shout, but I personally find it a bit of a slog to watch.

Regarding Nadal’s speed decline, I feel like he can almost be looked at as a different player in this match. Like a peaking Wawrinka with a more stable backhand, or something. Of course if he used his 2008 tactics here, his athleticism had declined so much he probably would lose 6-2 6-3.

TBH I think I’d rate RG 2012 higher as well even though the conditions in that match were pretty bad.

MC 2009 was an underrated one tbh. And Madrid is an overrated match but I think it still deserves to be highly ranked for the drama at least.

I’d also throw in RG 2008 just for the last set.

 

[7thKingSlam]

TBH I think I’d rate RG 2012 higher as well even though the conditions in that match were pretty bad.

MC 2009 was an underrated one tbh. And Madrid is an overrated match but I think it still deserves to be highly ranked for the drama at least.

I’d also throw in RG 2008 just for the last set.

I've never been a big fan of RG2012. Felt like a match where neither played particularly great and definitely not at the same time. Nadal cruised along in third gear that match until the conditions threw him off.

Monte Carlo 2009 is a good shout, I probably need to rewatch it since I feel like I've only seen highlights recently. RG2008... I thought about it, the action was fairly competitive but it was also one-sided and you never felt like Nadal would lose. Still was a great performance from Nadal and a very good one from Djokovic, really encapsulates how off the charts Nadal was that tournament that Djokovic's performance wasn't enough to grab a set. I wouldn't be against putting that match over Rome 2021 despite the lack of competitiveness. I wouldn't put Madrid 2009 over it though, it's just a hard watch. I guess I'm not being very objective when I say that, but it isn't an exact science lol.

One thing I'll say in Rome 2021's favor is Nadal's shotmaking and Djokovic's solid play makes for a great contrast that's appealing to the eye and probably makes me rank the match higher than the quality indicates it should be ranked. Yeah, RG2008 Djokovic would probably beat Rome 2021 Nadal, but damn it was fun to watch the ball-striking here.

So where does that leave us? RG2013, RG2014, Rome 2014, Hamburg 2008, Monte Carlo 2009, RG2008, then Rome 2021? So 7th? Not bad, but that's also leaving out Madrid 2011, 2009, Rome 2016. Lots of great clay matches between these two, wow.

Is RG2013 your pick for greatest post-2000 clay court match overall btw? I feel like I'd give the slight edge to Rome 2006 having recently watched it again, but I switch between those two and Rome 2005.

 

[Waspsting]

MC 2009 was an underrated one tbh.

Monte Carlo 2009 is a good shout, I probably need to rewatch it since I feel like I've only seen highlights recently.

Story about statting that one

I prefer not to to take a break statting at end of sets, so usually do it after first change-over
After 2 sets here, I had to go the bathroom and figured I'll hold it for 3 more games
First game took 15 minutes. And by then, I have to go substantially, but figure next 2 games will be quicker
Second game took 15 minutes. By then, I really have to go but figure, I'm sure next 1 will be routine
Third game took 15 minutes. By which stage, I'm pretty close to bursting

I think it was 37 or 38 minutes for 3 games. And they're on serve at the end of it. These guys were nuts when they were younger

This '21 match is example of how they'd changed over the years. Still tough and committed, but balanced in accordance with size of occasion and considerations of energy/time consumption
Flame a few winners or winning shots after decent set up (in Nadal's case, not even necessarily the set up part in this match), not run around for 40 minutes in a last-man-standing contest

 

[tudwell]

Nah, well over a year bestie

Hmm. This thread was from late September 2021 and Nadal had the epic Australian final where he broke the slam record just a few months later.

But regardless – Rome 2021 certainly wasn’t his last epic match, thankfully.

(Well, thankfully for his fans more than me lol, though time has healed most of my Nadal-related wounds.)

 

[7thKingSlam]

Story about statting that one

I prefer not to to take a break statting at end of sets, so usually do it after first change-over
After 2 sets here, I had to go the bathroom and figured I'll hold it for 3 more games
First game took 15 minutes. And by then, I have to go substantially, but figure next 2 games will be quicker
Second game took 15 minutes. By then, I really have to go but figure, I'm sure next 1 will be routine
Third game took 15 minutes. By which stage, I'm pretty close to bursting

Lmao sounds about right for Nadal/Djokovic 2009.

I think it was 37 or 38 minutes for 3 games. And they're on serve at the end of it. These guys were nuts when they were younger

This '21 match is example of how they'd changed over the years. Still tough and committed, but balanced in accordance with size of occasion and considerations of energy/time consumption
Flame a few winners or winning shots after decent set up (in Nadal's case, not even necessarily the set up part in this match), not run around for 40 minutes in a last-man-standing contest

Feels like AO2012 was a bit of a turning point for them, almost a gentleman’s agreement that they would never go through hell like that again. Still had super physical matches like RG2013 and Wimbledon 2018 but not quite as reckless as Monte Carlo/Madrid 2009, AO2012, USO2011. And I like that you pointed out how they scaled to the size of the occasion; RG2021 definitely felt more physical on both ends than Rome did.

I suppose the main difference between RG2021 vs Monte Carlo 2009 is which style you prefer to watch.

 

[Waspsting]

I suppose the main difference between RG2021 vs Monte Carlo 2009 is which style you prefer to watch.

yeah, exactly - and going into how different styles of lead to different perceptions of quality

In his breakout period, Nadal was a relentless grinder, happy to fall back and defend (let alone grind). He had phenomenal FH shotmaking, but rarely led with it. Lot of long rallying going on
Was he a better or worse player in later years, when he cut to the chase of ending points more quickly? - I think its just more a matter of different style than a 'better-or-worse' question

Couple of examples. The '05 Rome final is the postcard picture of classic, clay court grind. Long, hard fought, tough rallies all through it
Nadal still hits a ton of winners. More than 40 FHs, which I think is most I've come across in single match. Not much of it set up by strong serve either. But the thing lasts close to 6 hours

Compare to this Rome match or the '14 French final, when he's dispatching FHs to anything not-strong, let alone weak. He's basically a completely different player

Or the Nadal from French Open '17, that was boxing people around from the baseline and where he had his personal best games won percentage for the title run
Compare that to the 4-5 hour grind he came through in '05 first round. Confronted with a similar opponet in '17, neglible chances of a 4-5 hour match, and I highly doubt said opponent could take a set from him anyway

All that whizzing around the court made for a lot of fun tennis, but its probably better take charge and thus not have to whizz around like that in the first place

 

[tudwell]

Feels like AO2012 was a bit of a turning point for them, almost a gentleman’s agreement that they would never go through hell like that again. Still had super physical matches like RG2013 and Wimbledon 2018 but not quite as reckless as Monte Carlo/Madrid 2009, AO2012, USO2011.

It was just a year or two ago that I actually finally watched that 2013 Roland Garros semi in full, and I was surprised at how aggressive both guys were. It was almost like a hard court match – not a quick hard court, mind you, but worlds away from their early 07-09 clay grindfests. And yeah, I had the same thought re: the 2012 final. Felt like going into that Roland Garros semi both guys were like, "Well, I can't do that again," and so made a point of ending rallies a little more quickly – especially since it was only a semi and they had Ferrer waiting to grind things out even more on Sunday.

 

[GRASScaraz]

2015 Monte Carlo and Rome 2011 are the best Djokodal clay matches

 

[MichaelNadal]

2015 Monte Carlo and Rome 2011 are the best Djokodal clay matches

Trolling needs to be more subtle.

 

[7thKingSlam]

yeah, exactly - and going into how different styles of lead to different perceptions of quality

I do think people tend to underrate the later matches between the big 3 because they believe the movement decline is impossible to overcome. Consistency definitely went down from the big 3 as they aged, and maybe versatility in that they had to lean on one aggressive style rather than having the option to use their legs, but in a one-match sample where the older big 3 are peaking? I don't think they were that much worse. Was Wimbledon 2018 much worse in quality than Wimbledon 2008? Was Nadal much worse at RG2020 vs 2005-07?

Take 2020 Nadal's name out of it, and just look at a guy who missed 4 returns total across an entire grand slam final against Djokovic, hits big off both wings, has some punch on the serve, and still moves well enough to defend at a solid level. If this hypothetical player was about to match up with 2007 Nadal at RG, wouldn't you feel like, "oh man, this is gonna be a good one"?

Couple of examples. The '05 Rome final is the postcard picture of classic, clay court grind. Long, hard fought, tough rallies all through it
Nadal still hits a ton of winners. More than 40 FHs, which I think is most I've come across in single match. Not much of it set up by strong serve either. But the thing lasts close to 6 hours

40 FH winners?? That's crazy even for such a long match. Especially on slow clay against Coria, I wouldn't have guessed the kinda skinny 2005 Nadal hit that many. I do love that match though.

Compare to this Rome match or the '14 French final, when he's dispatching FHs to anything not-strong, let alone weak. He's basically a completely different player

Or the Nadal from French Open '17, that was boxing people around from the baseline and where he had his personal best games won percentage for the title run
Compare that to the 4-5 hour grind he came through in '05 first round. Confronted with a similar opponet in '17, neglible chances of a 4-5 hour match, and I highly doubt said opponent could take a set from him anyway

'05 first round? I think Nadal cruised through the early rounds at RG 2005, so I'm not sure which match you mean here, but I understand your point. On the other hand, this whizzing around style of play was remarkably consistent. Can we point to a single bad match Nadal really played on clay from 2005-2008? Not to mention of course, the 81 match winning streak across 3 years. As he got older I think there were a few more subpar matches thrown in from Nadal on clay, which I think comes naturally when you try to ramp up the aggression more.

 

[7thKingSlam]

It was just a year or two ago that I actually finally watched that 2013 Roland Garros semi in full, and I was surprised at how aggressive both guys were. It was almost like a hard court match – not a quick hard court, mind you, but worlds away from their early 07-09 clay grindfests. And yeah, I had the same thought re: the 2012 final. Felt like going into that Roland Garros semi both guys were like, "Well, I can'd do that again," and so made a point of ending rallies a little more quickly – especially since it was only a semi and they had Ferrer waiting to grind things out even more on Sunday.

Nadal in particular was a lot more aggressive in 2013 than other prime years, probably realizing his movement had declined and the he needed to play more aggressive to beat Djokovic and some other top guys. Makes for a pretty fun watch, and it's admirable how Nadal stuck to the game plan and doubled down the aggression in the fifth instead of pulling back and playing conservatively when he got nervous.

 

[Waspsting]

I do think people tend to underrate the later matches between the big 3 because they believe the movement decline is impossible to overcome. Consistency definitely went down from the big 3 as they aged, and maybe versatility in that they had to lean on one aggressive style rather than having the option to use their legs, but in a one-match sample where the older big 3 are peaking? I don't think they were that much worse. Was Wimbledon 2018 much worse in quality than Wimbledon 2008? Was Nadal much worse at RG2020 vs 2005-07?

Take 2020 Nadal's name out of it, and just look at a guy who missed 4 returns total across an entire grand slam final against Djokovic, hits big off both wings, has some punch on the serve, and still moves well enough to defend at a solid level. If this hypothetical player was about to match up with 2007 Nadal at RG, wouldn't you feel like, "oh man, this is gonna be a good one"?

Have you ever met a 60 or 70 year old man who say something like -

"In my day, everything was better. Food was better, movies were better, TV was better. The girls were prettier. We knew how to have fun. The sports was much, much better than today's soft, pampered lillputs..."

Are your thoughts when presented with such a take more along the lines of -

a) "wow. This man has so much experience. I think today's stuff is great, but I haven't seen the stuff he's talking about
He though has seen everything I have and everything today and everything in between, so he must really know which is better"

of

b) "There's an old sentimental fuddy-duddy"

They didn't start life as fuddy-duddies, so they must have become it at some point. What is that point?
Tracking Big 3 Fanatics wouldn't be a bad study in looking into that

There are number of celebrated players who had the best succes when, not moving as well as Big 3 did in their later years - Boris Becker, Andre Agassi among them

'05 first round? I think Nadal cruised through the early rounds at RG 2005, so I'm not sure which match you mean here

My mistake. I was thinking of '06 third round, a 5 hour tussle with Mathieu, who did in fact win a set

 

[7thKingSlam]

Have you ever met a 60 or 70 year old man who say something like -

"In my day, everything was better. Food was better, movies were better, TV was better. The girls were prettier. We knew how to have fun. The sports was much, much better than today's soft, pampered lillputs..."

Are your thoughts when presented with such a take more along the lines of -

a) "wow. This man has so much experience. I think today's stuff is great, but I haven't seen the stuff he's talking about
He though has seen everything I have and everything today and everything in between, so he must really know which is better"

of

b) "There's an old sentimental fuddy-duddy"

They didn't start life as fuddy-duddies, so they must have become it at some point. What is that point?
Tracking Big 3 Fanatics wouldn't be a bad study in looking into that

There are number of celebrated players who had the best succes when, not moving as well as Big 3 did in their later years - Boris Becker, Andre Agassi among them

Yeah, makes sense. 2006 Federer especially gets some mythical treatment because his win rate declined heavily once the peak big 4 era started. I still think the best versions of the big 3 were in their mid-20s for sure because they were so versatile and consistent, but it’s not like 2012 Djokovic would stomp 2023 Djokovic who had the best forehand, backhand, and one of the best serves on tour.

My mistake. I was thinking of '06 third round, a 5 hour tussle with Mathieu, who did in fact win a set

Ah yeah, I remember that match! Complete grind from the back of the court. Took 5 hours for 4 sets I believe.

 

[yama]

I just rewatched that match.
Rafa was incredible.
He fired off that passing shot with such incredible momentum that he rolled away with it—I couldn't help but laugh.