Match Stats/Report - Nadal vs Medvedev, US Open final, 2019

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Is this your longest match report ever? Quite an interesting read.
Not quite, but its up there. 3 posts is rare, but happens

Action is complex with a lot of moving parts - as opposed to describing hitting strength crossed with outlast vs outmanuver vs shot-making crossed with error-proneness

I also don't Medvedev's game that well or the match up. For a player or a match-up I know well, I could write "... then the usual thing happens" or "... he does his usual thing" and I at least could read that and have a good picture of play.

Older matches with a combo of baseline and net play tend to need wider descriptions

At least a couple have gone 4 posts

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I watched most of the match (missed a chunk of the 4th set.) What has stuck with me was Med's brilliant play at the tail end of the third set.
Great game to break , probably best of the match - but he doesn't have a prolonged dominant run. Couple of games before, he survives 10 point hold with 2 break points, Nadal goofing an OH on the second. And first game of 4th is another tough hold for him

Reading your analysis, it's interesting how Nadal's advantage seemed to be mostly tactical (being more willing to go to the net). If Med had the right tactics from the start, this could have been a quite difficult match.

I also think the court was quite slow (in a "dead" way, not in a high bounce way) and it got yet slower as the match progressed. Neither player's favorite conditions and it turned into a bit of a grindfest because of that.
Nadal seems to know exactly how to play a guy standing so far back to return (the way he himself does). Med picks it up from him as match wears on and his drop shots aren't particularly effective

Still, I'd back Nadal to come out ahead if they're both coming to net regularly. He passes better and Med has to volley much better to cope. I'm not too familiar with Med's game, but he doesn't look like the kind of volleyer you'd back to keep being able to pull of makeable, let alone difficult volleys. My feeling is this match is him playing above himself at net and Nadal on the pass can be a nightmare to deal with

The 'grinding' style is normal enough for Nadal. In general, if he can beat an opponent by just outlasting him, he does it. No putting him to the sword for its own sake, especially on slower surfaces. Maybe run him around a bit, but not blast him away

For him, this is particularly proactive with all the serve-volleying and approaching

I certainly wouldn't have been thrilled to watch a Murrovic match on that court lol
:) It took 3-4 days to do the '12 US final

I've learnt never to tally stats when I'm tired... 1 mistake then, and at the end, I have to go over and find where it is, which can be a pain

I was tired after every break for that one
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Says who? You? I can’t trust your logic when earlier in the thread you said that by appreciating a “lower quality” match it means we’re appreciating a “higher quality” match less.

Pretty struck errors > well constructed winners FTW.
Intensity of ball striking matters too. Errrors following harder, heavier or deeper shots aren't the same as errors after puffball rallies full of neutral balls. Federer in 2009 was a clearly better mover than either 2019 finalist as well. Its a different tempo of rally when the receiver isn't 10 feet behind the baseline too. Don't see Medvedev bothering Fed or Del Potro that much.
 

The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
Intensity of ball striking matters too. Errrors following harder, heavier or deeper shots aren't the same as errors after puffball rallies full of neutral balls. Federer in 2009 was a clearly better mover than either 2019 finalist as well. Its a different tempo of rally when the receiver isn't 10 feet behind the baseline too. Don't see Medvedev bothering Fed or Del Potro that much.
Intensity matters yes but given Fedpo were playing on a faster court and were moar aggressive you'd figure that they'd have the higher winner count. Instead, they played the overall sloppier match. And it’s not like Nadvedev were pushing the ball. They just showed a greater variety of changing speed, spin, and direction.

Matchups matter as well; for instance, the Mad Lad's game would be decimated by Ol' Rog's slice. I do think Nadvedev could have taken Delpossum given how slow of a starter he is, and they wouldn't employ the same “strategy” as Braindeaderer. Once they saw him crushing forehands, they’d most likely try to disrupt his rhythm by getting him on the move since out of the 4 finalists he's by far the worst mover.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Intensity matters yes but given Fedpo were playing on a faster court and were moar aggressive you'd figure that they'd have the higher winner count. Instead, they played the overall sloppier match. And it’s not like Nadvedev were pushing the ball. They just showed a greater variety of changing speed, spin, and direction.

Matchups matter as well; for instance, the Mad Lad's game would be decimated by Ol' Rog's slice. I do think Nadvedev could have taken Delpossum given how slow of a starter he is, and they wouldn't employ the same “strategy” as Braindeaderer. Once they saw him crushing forehands, they’d most likely try to disrupt his rhythm by getting him on the move since out of the 4 finalists he's by far the worst mover.
Easier to tee off on neutral balls or make your way into net when your opponent is deep behind the baseline. IMO Medvedev and Nadal would be coughing up more short balls and putaways against the 2009 finalists where as the 2009 finalists would have more freedom and be operating under less pressure.

I don't think Medvedev has the game to make Del Potro move, Nadal sure but he's going to be tested on defence way more by Delpo than Medvedev.
 
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The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
Easier to tee off on neutral balls or make your way into net when your opponent is deep behind the baseline. IMO Medvedev and Nadal wouldn't be coughing up more short balls and putaways against the 2009 finalists where as the 2009 finalists would have more freedom and be operating under less pressure.

I don't think Medvedev has the game to make Del Potro move, Nadal sure but he's going to be tested on defence way more by Delpo than Medvedev.
I think given how poorly Fedpo (especially Ol’ Rog) served that match would allow Nadvedev to get into (and even take control of) rallies. RAFA even with his diminished speed would be able to hang with Ol’ Rog since the smaller racquet means he can still punish his BH. I think the Mad Lad is more than capable of changing directions consistently to get Delpossum on the move.

The Mad Lad and Delpossum both looked better than they actually were just for different reasons. Delpossum due to Ol’ Rog’s tactics or lack thereof allowed him to get into a rhythm and take control. Ol’ Rog unceremoniously folding in the 5th was the final nail. And the Mad Lad due to RAFA’s age and declined mental toughness. That one missed volley kept the door open and he almost went on to kick it off it’s hinges. Based on how the actual matches played out, the 09 F was just the sloppier lower quality match for me.

For the record, I don’t have a problem with anyone thinking the 09 F was better. I picked that match to compare the 2019 F to because 1) I think they are of a comparable level and 2) I knew Octorok thinks it's better. My issue was that he came into this thread for the sole purpose of childishly crapping all over this match. And the reason for doing so was equally childish. Because according to him "overappreciating a match means underappreciating other matches in comparison".
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Is this your longest match report ever? Quite an interesting read.
It's good that you pointed out Nadal's constant time wasting between points and cheating the clock. He repeatedly was taking 35 seconds between serves and the chair did very little about it. Med just laid down and took it instead of constantly complaining about the rules being broken again by Rafa on the time clock.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I think given how poorly Fedpo (especially Ol’ Rog) served that match would allow Nadvedev to get into (and even take control of) rallies. RAFA even with his diminished speed would be able to hang with Ol’ Rog since the smaller racquet means he can still punish his BH. I think the Mad Lad is more than capable of changing directions consistently to get Delpossum on the move.

The Mad Lad and Delpossum both looked better than they actually were just for different reasons. Delpossum due to Ol’ Rog’s tactics or lack thereof allowed him to get into a rhythm and take control. Ol’ Rog unceremoniously folding in the 5th was the final nail. And the Mad Lad due to RAFA’s age and declined mental toughness. That one missed volley kept the door open and he almost went on to kick it off it’s hinges. Based on how the actual matches played out, the 09 F was just the sloppier lower quality match for me.

For the record, I don’t have a problem with anyone thinking the 09 F was better. I picked that match to compare the 2019 F to because 1) I think they are of a comparable level and 2) I knew Octorok thinks it's better. My issue was that he came into this thread for the sole purpose of childishly crapping all over this match. And the reason for doing so was equally childish. Because according to him "overappreciating a match means underappreciating other matches in comparison".
Federer didn't serve great in the AO 2009 final (better than the USO still) and was equal to a much better Nadal for much of the match. Imo there is a clear and present difference in athleticism here. I find the 2009 final a bit overrated but imo the average standard of shot was higher and Del Potro overcame the best mover of the four.

Anyways agree to disagree.
 
Intensity matters yes but given Fedpo were playing on a faster court and were moar aggressive you'd figure that they'd have the higher winner count. Instead, they played the overall sloppier match. And it’s not like Nadvedev were pushing the ball. They just showed a greater variety of changing speed, spin, and direction.
That's not how it works - forced errors exist, for one. Plus Medvedev being extra passive for much of the match gave Nadal extra easy winners coming in and putting away softballs. And yes the difference in intensity is such that the '19 final was pushy compared to '09 ha.

Matchups matter as well; for instance, the Mad Lad's game would be decimated by Ol' Rog's slice. I do think Nadvedev could have taken Delpossum given how slow of a starter he is, and they wouldn't employ the same “strategy” as Braindeaderer. Once they saw him crushing forehands, they’d most likely try to disrupt his rhythm by getting him on the move since out of the 4 finalists he's by far the worst mover.
This idea of Federer just standing there hitting crosscourt forehands is a silly myth lol. Plenty of movement in the match. What do you know.

Honestly this is nothing short of disgusting. Medvedev routinely failed to attack average 2nd serves and yet you stress Federer having a low 1st serve % as a strong point in comparison - as if Medvedev would do anything about that - the disrespect is sickening.
 

The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
That's not how it works - forced errors exist, for one. Plus Medvedev being extra passive for much of the match gave Nadal extra easy winners coming in and putting away softballs. And yes the difference in intensity is such that the '19 final was pushy compared to '09 ha.
Oh yeah it was soooo pushy :laughing: That's why Nadvedev were +41 and +23 on points ended forcefully/UEs differential. This despite being better movers and defenders.

- Winners - Nadal 49, Medvedev 54 :)
- UEs - Nadal 44, Medvedev 58
- Errors forced - Nadal 36, Medvedev 27

Meanwhile, del Potro+11, Federer -1 :confused:

-Winners - del Potro 39, Federer 36
-UEs - del Potro 59, Federer 61
- Errors forced - del Potro 31, Federer 24

Huh, would you look at that. Nadvedev forced more errors than Fedpo did, some pushers they are.

This idea of Federer just standing there hitting crosscourt forehands is a silly myth lol. Plenty of movement in the match. What do you know.

Honestly this is nothing short of disgusting. Medvedev routinely failed to attack average 2nd serves and yet you stress Federer having a low 1st serve % as a strong point in comparison - as if Medvedev would do anything about that - the disrespect is sickening.
Ofc Ol' Rog didn't hit every ball CC to Delpossum's FH, but he did over play it which played a big part in Delpossum even being in the match. And apparently, I know more than you since I can watch a match and know that a winner off a well set up point is better than watching a failed passing shot. Not to mention being able to look at data and see an obvious difference in match quality.

And what's really disgusting is that you came into this thread with the sole purpose of crapping all over it for an incredibly childish reason. Waah if someone likes this match it means a different match that I like more isn't going to get the praise I think it deserves. Grow up. You didn't see me go into the 09 F Match Report thread and write a bunch of disparaging things about it. I let the fans of that match enjoy it for the awesome match that it was.

The Mad Lad has a great return game, certainly better than Delpossum. And even though RAFA doesn't have the best serve everyone will tell you returning a lefty's slice serve out wide is a big adjustment to make. Ol' Rog only getting 50% 1st serves in play was a big reason why he didn't win the 09 F. You're the one who started this, if anyone has been disrespectful it's been you. @Waspsting works incredibly hard on these match reports and you come in here with this garbage.
 
Oh yeah it was soooo pushy :laughing: That's why Nadvedev were +41 and +23 on points ended forcefully/UEs differential. This despite being better movers and defenders.

- Winners - Nadal 49, Medvedev 54 :)
- UEs - Nadal 44, Medvedev 58
- Errors forced - Nadal 36, Medvedev 27

Meanwhile, del Potro+11, Federer -1 :confused:

-Winners - del Potro 39, Federer 36
-UEs - del Potro 59, Federer 61
- Errors forced - del Potro 31, Federer 24

Huh, would you look at that. Nadvedev forced more errors than Fedpo did, some pushers they are.
Lots of quickserve points, think I underrated them - no doubt the rallying standard was more lax though. The returning was obviously more passive as well further enhancing quickserving statistics.

The stats such as you cite boil down to UE% btw. The higher it is, the worse W+FE-UE figures look; the lower it is, the better they look. So we're back to Feddick USO above all. Something tells me you won't accept it.

btw net errors are typically considered forced which skews the stat. Takes a flagrant error to mark it unforced for most stat collectors. I don't think that reflects the reality of the game correctly, in terms of shot difficulty at net vs baseline.

Ofc Ol' Rog didn't hit every ball CC to Delpossum's FH, but he did over play it which played a big part in Delpossum even being in the match. And apparently, I know more than you since I can watch a match and know that a winner off a well set up point is better than watching a failed passing shot. Not to mention being able to look at data and see an obvious difference in match quality.
Nadal missing overheads and underplaying slices was paramount to letting Medvedev back into the match lol. Funny, as soon as he took to slicebotting in the fifth sadladev instantly dropped two breaks. Telling, isn't it.

Yeah, a well set up point against a passively positioned opponent who's begging you to yoyo him around the court with your superior weight of shot vs a difficult backhand pass off a baseline-deep slice which was itself an excellent job against the trademark Fred short slice to draw forward which was itself a good way to neutralise a powerful delpotro forehand.

And what's really disgusting is that you came into this thread with the sole purpose of crapping all over it for an incredibly childish reason. Waah if someone likes this match it means a different match that I like more isn't going to get the praise I think it deserves. Grow up. You didn't see me go into the 09 F Match Report thread and write a bunch of disparaging things about it. I let the fans of that match enjoy it for the awesome match that it was.

The Mad Lad has a great return game, certainly better than Delpossum. And even though RAFA doesn't have the best serve everyone will tell you returning a lefty's slice serve out wide is a big adjustment to make. Ol' Rog only getting 50% 1st serves in play was a big reason why he didn't win the 09 F. You're the one who started this, if anyone has been disrespectful it's been you. @Waspsting works incredibly hard on these match reports and you come in here with this garbage.
Well the 09 final wasn't a great match, don't care what you have to say about it except in comparison to even worse matches lol.

Nadal got 58% 1st serves in play, not so big a difference considering Federer's serve itself is more potent although Nadal served better than his average by quality I guess.

Have fun enjoying alternative truths, I've complained enough to make myself heard.
 

The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
2019 USO F > 2012 AO F because objective W-UE stats objectively say so (y)
I already told you that I don’t think that’s the be all end all. But you can’t see past your “overappreciating a match means underappreciating another match” mantra. And you conveniently left out FEs again when it turns out Fedpo did worse there too :whistle:

I already said idc if people think USO 09 > USO 2019. I just don’t go around chastising people for having a different opinion.
 
I already told you that I don’t think that’s the be all end all. But you can’t see past your “overappreciating a match means underappreciating another match” mantra. And you conveniently left out FEs again when it turns out Fedpo did worse there too :whistle:

I already said idc if people think USO 09 > USO 2019. I just don’t go around chastising people for having a different opinion.
Yeah you just think they're wrong lol.
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
Nadal should have won this in straights, should have beaten Tsitsipas at this years AO in straights, and should have beaten Medvedev/Tsitsipas at the tour finals in straights too.
 
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