Match Stats/Report - Wawrinka vs Djokovic, French Open final, 2015

W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Stan Wawrinka beat Novak Djokovic 4-6, 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 in the French Open final, 2015 on clay

It was Wawrinka's second Slam title. Djokovic would win the remaining 3 other Slams of the year and starting from the next one, complete a non-Calendar year Grand Slam, finishing at the next French Open

Wawrinka won 137 points, Djokovic 117

(Note: I've made educated guesses about serve type for 2-3 points)

Serve Stats
Wawrinka...
- 1st serve percentage (83/126) 66%
- 1st serve points won (63/83) 76%
- 2nd serve points won (22/43) 51%
- Aces 9, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (29/126) 23%

Djokovic...
- 1st serve percentage (83/128) 65%
- 1st serve points won (52/83) 63%
- 2nd serve points won (24/45) 53%
- Aces 6, Service Winners 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (23/128) 18%

Serve Pattern
Wawrinka served...
- to FH 45%
- to BH 50%
- to Body 5%

Djokovic served...
- to FH 43%
- to BH 52%
- to Body 5%

Return Stats
Wawrinka made...
- 105 (50 FH, 55 BH), including 4 runaround FHs
- 1 Winner (1 FH), a runaround FH
- 15 Errors, comprising...
- 7 Unforced (4 FH, 3 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- 8 Forced (2 BH, 6 BH)
- Return Rate (105/128) 82%

Djokovic made...
- 94 (46 FH, 48 BH), including 1 runaround FH & 1 return-approach
- 2 Winners (1 FH, 1 BH)
- 19 Errors, comprising...
- 8 Unforced (4 FH, 4 BH), including 1 drop-return attempt
- 11 Forced (4 FH, 7 BH)
- Return Rate (94/123) 76%

Break Points
Wawrinka 4/15 (10 games)
Djokovic 2/10 (8 games)

Winners (including returns, excluding aces)
Wawrinka 48 (26 FH, 9 BH, 5 FHV, 3 BHV, 5 OH)
Djokovic 22 (7 FH, 8 BH, 1 FHV, 6 BHV)

Wawrinka's FHs - 6 cc (1 at net), 6 dtl, 8 inside-out, 3 inside-in (1 runaround return), 1 inside-in/cc and 2 running-down-drop-shot cc at net
- BHs - 1 cc pass, 7 dtl (3 passes) and 1 around and over net post

- 1 OH was on the bounce

Djokovic's FHs - 1 dtl/inside-out, 1 inside-out, 2 inside-in (1 return), 1 inside-in/cc, 1 drop shot at net and 1 running-down-drop shot dtl at net
- BHs - 1 cc, 5 dtl (1 pass), 1 inside-in return pass and 1 drop shot

- 1 from a serve-volley point - a first volley BHV

Errors (excluding returns and serves)
Wawrinka 69
- 53 Unforced (26 FH, 23 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OH)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net
- 16 Forced (9 FH, 7 BH)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net & 1 BH running-down-drop-shot at net
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 49.1

Djokovic 60
- 41 Unforced (23 FH, 16 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 19 Forced (10 FH, 7 BH, 1 FHV, 1 BHV)... with 1 FH running-down-drop-shot at net
Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 46.6

(Note 1: all half-volleys refer to such shots played at net. Half -volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke counts)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Wawrinka was...
- 28/39 (72%) at net, including...
- 1/2 serve-volleying, both 1st serves
---
- 1/1 forced back

Djokovic was...
- 14/25 (56%) at net, including...
- 1/3 (33%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 1/1 off 1st serve and...
- 0/2 off 2nd serve
---
- 0/1 return-approaching
- 0/1 forced back

Match Report
Good baseline slugfest. Wawrinka has the bigger serve, remains about as consistent while being a lot more damaging from the back, especially with FH. Djokovic is a bit flat and conservative in what he tries to do, leaving himself open to being out-slugged as he ends up being

Oddity in stats are break point figures. Wawrinka has just 15 break points spread across 10 games, and he only breaks in 4. Djokovic is even more extreme with 10 break points in just 8 games (breaks twice). Not many prolonged games - 1 chance per games almost and its usually not taken

Statistically, it looks like Wawrinka's bigger serve is key. First serve in count is a wash (Djokovic +1%), Djoko thinly leads second serve points won (+2%) but Wawrinka with sizable first serve points won (+13%), with +5% unreturned serves and +2 aces/service winners

They key to the lead in first serve points won though isn't the serve alone, though he does have the stronger one, but aggression in play. Stan with humongous 48-22 lead in winners. He has more FH winners (26) than Djoko's total figure. Note also Stan at net 39 times to Djoko's 25 and winning 72% there, as opposed to a low 56%. UEFI of Stan's high 49.1 to Djoko's middling 46.6 completes picture of play. Stan is far more aggressive in play

For Djoko to come out ahead in that light, he'd have to remain rock solid consistency (i.e. not making UEs) or/and have Stan be loose from the back (which, in light of his winner numbers, you'd expect). Neither happens. Djoko isn't particularly solid and has 41 UEs. His winners to UEs ratio of 22-41 is not only poor, it remains net negative even when the errors he forces are added to his winners 38-41. He'd need to Stan to be particularly error prone to come out ahead having played like that

Other than first set, Stan isn't. Djoko leaves match on Stan's racquet, but the winner strikes an outstanding balance of aggression and solidity.

After first set, UEs read Stan 19, Djoko 7. That ratio is something like what Djoko would need to win, seeing as he isn't able or willing to step up and end points forcefully.
Rest of match though, UEs are dead even at 34... with Stan also regularly hitting baseline winners and coming to net to finish off, while Djoko basically pushes

Djoko's game plan seems to have been to play solid and outlast Stan from the back. Its not a bad plan, but he's slow to change when its clearly not working

Serve & Return
Very good serving from Wawrinka, below personal par returning from Djoko. And good serving from Djoko, met with solid returning from Stan

Some very big serving from Stan, and 66% first serves in at that power is impressive. 9 aces, a service winner and many other very forceful first serves. Just as impressive are his second serves, which are no gimmes either
A typical Djokovic returning showing involves a good chunk of hard, deep returns down the middle. There's almost none of that here. Just regular returning, leaving Stan with initiative, most of them time even on second serves.

Still, I would primarily credit Stan's serving than discredit Djoko's returning. By a normal standard, Djoko's returning is just fine and only suffers by comparison to his own. His problems have more to do with play than the return. Oddly, he goes for a drop-return (he misses) that seems to be deliberate. Don't recall any other instance of Djokovic trying this

Djoko serves about his norm, decent without being overwhelming. Stan returns efficiently, often falling back to swing back the ball. Rare, thumping runaround FH return from him, including a winner
Stan's return is normal and leaves Djoko with initiative off third ball
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Play - Baseline & Net
From Djokovic's point of view, baseline play is passive. He plays neutral third balls from positions where taking charge was very doable and more in line with his norm

The plan seems to be to play solid and outlast Stan to draw errors. Djokovic generally does this with hard hit, deep shots in a beat-down style. Here, he's virtually pushing and style of play is outlasting, who-blinks first stuff instead

Its not a bad plan necessarily. BH cc is at the heart of it. He has match low 16 UEs from the BH to Stan's 23. Does he win that duel?

Probably just, but by a whisker, if that. Neutrally, he gets better of Stan BH-BH, but without imposing himself. crosscourt rallies are 50-50 affairs, rather than Djoko pushing for advantage with Stan holding out, as tends to be with Djoko's BH cc play. Stan comes out with some blinding dtl winners and initiative snatchers. After hitting a remarkable around-net-post winners, he starts going for point finishing BHs more and more, missing more often than not

Off the FH, Djoko is outright passive and rarely gets stuck into a ball. It stands out all the more for Stan doing just the opposite. He plays fair few mildly attacking FH inside-outs too, which trouble Stan some but remains almost neutral with the shot

Stan's showing is a balanced, not aggressive one, which makes his play even more impressive. You don't usually see 1.23 winners per game on clay from a player playing like that. He looks to play solidly and step up to take charge from there and uses the serve to set up attacking shots

Other than late in match, he doesn't go for wild shots or shots from regulation positions often. He rallies neutrally, gain upper hand to overpower Djoko and then finishes with killing FHs or approaches

Note the wide variety and balance of FH winners - 6 cc, 6 dtl, 8 inside-out and 4 inside-in based. The high 72% net points won spring from baseline superiority (and Djoko's inept drop shots to a lesser extent)

The around-net-post BH winner is the best remembered shot of this match and Stan adds a few other stunning BH winners on critical points. This has somewhat skewed perception of the match. Its primarily a top drawer FH showing from Stan, with selective great BHs thrown in. He has 26 winners and same number UEs of that wing. Winner/UE differentials for match -

- Stan FH... even
- Djoko BH... -8
- Stan BH... -14
- Djoko FH... -16

Plenty of scope for improvement for both on movement and defence. Stan isn't forced into too many errors due to Djoko's conservative hitting rather than great defence. Djoko's movements are often sluggish and he regularly shows poor footwork. His movements stand out for being below his norm

Djokovic throws in drop shots for variety and does badly. Stan runs them easily - and he's not particularly quick - often being able to hit a regular top spin shot (as opposed to the hitting up running-down-drop-shot shot) once he reaches it. Puts away 3 winners at net against it or hits a strong shot that leaves him complete control at net with Djoko chasing a wide, hard hit shot. Uncharacteristically, Djoko doesn't approach himself behind his drop shots, which makes it easier still for Stan

This is a universal poor pattern in Djokovic's play and one which unlike his troubles on the OH, is entirely his choice. In this match, he accentuates it still more by going for these drop shots on important points - and getting burnt. He also approaches on such points, also getting burnt but that's more down to great passing from Stan

Match Progression
Solid first set from Djoko as he outlasts Stan from baseline. Stan lets loose with odd aggressive shots but by and large, looks to play a steady game himself and is nowhere near as consistent as Djoko. Just the 1 break but most counter-play is Djoko's and he has break point in 2 other games also. Stan's only 1 is with Djoko serving for set - and is met by a service winner

Poor game from Stan to get broken to love though. 3 BH UEs - a cc winner attempt, a blink and a wild inside-out shot - followed by a double fault

The last game of the set redirects, if not turns the match. Starting with it, Djokovic faces break points in 6 of his next 7 service games. He mostly saves them by drawing errors from Stan's BH. Good game from Stan to break to end the second set though with a pair of running winners, 1 from each side, before outlasting Djoko in another BH rally. Stan shaves his errors while continuing to be damaging. Djoko's errors goes up due to Stan prolonging rallies, not looser play from him, without forcing shots going up

Djoko is given a warning for racquet abuse after the set. A game earlier, Stan wasn't after smacking the net in frustration

More of the same in set 3, with an even better return game from Stan to break to love, reeling of 3 winners on the last 3 points. Djoko has a point to break back next game, erased with a third ball FH inside-out winner

Djoko opens up a 3-0 lead in the fourth with Stan missing volleys and winner attempts BHs. Stan levels, outlasting Djoko in a great rally on break point. Ending is dramatic and high quality. Down 15-40, Djoko holds by taking net to save the break points - the second one a difficult, stretch BHV winner - before finishing game with a BH dtl winner

Next game, he moves to 0-40 on back of Stan missing attacking shots, but Stan steps up with strong serves and overpowering play to hold. Game after, couple of BH winners from Stan puts Djoko in trouble again and he elects to serve-volley and come to net to to cope. He's passed a couple of times with outstanding BHs and forced into error coming in behind a second serve to give up the break

Not an easy serve out, with Stan missing a couple of wild attacking shots and facing break point. On it, he defends ably before Djoko misses a FH. Stan finishes with a BH dtl winner

Summing up, top match from Wawrinka with strong serving, sure returning and a great balance of being reasonably solid but powerful in play, with tremendous shot-making off the FH in particular thrown in. Djoko looks to lead with solidity rather than command but ends up playing passively and is a bit flat, pushing more often than not from the back

Stats for Djokovic's quarter with Rafael Nadal - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...open-quarter-final-2015.673205/#post-14430857
Stats for '16 final between Djokovic and Andy Murray - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ovic-vs-murray-french-open-final-2016.658244/
 
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7

7thKingSlam

Rookie
Probably my favorite of the Wawrinka/Djokovic rivalry. AO2013 is one I had fond memories of but when I rewatched it, realized it was kinda a slog outside of the highlight points I remembered well.

Funny that in Novak's two best years (2011/2015), he was not stopped by Nadal at the French Open, but instead an aggressive-playing Swiss in 4-tight sets. Lots of parallels between these two, but which performance would you say was overall better?

Federer served better in 2011 but I'd probably take Wawrinka's performance because of how hard he was to play off the ground.
 
roysid

roysid

Legend
Funny to think, i was supporting djokovic to win this match.
In fact, that year 2015 i was rooting for runner ups in all 4 GS.

Djokovic had to play 2 days for semis..total 5 sets. As he couldnt finish murray in 3 sets and the play extended to next day where he played another 2 sets.
With no rest day for him which wawrinka got, i wonder how much that affected his play
 
Drob

Drob

Hall of Fame
Waspsting said:
Rest of match though, UEs are dead even at 34... with Stan also regularly hitting baseline winners and coming to net to finish
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Waspsting said:
Stan's showing is a balanced, not aggressive one, which makes his play even more impressive. You don't usually see 1.23 winners per game on clay from a player playing like that. He looks to play solidly and step up to take charge from there and uses the serve to set up attacking shots
Click to expand...

"Balanced" - yeah but, 48 winners in 39 games on clay - like you say! That is Guga-like at Guga's classic form.

This must be the most impressive of Stan's three slams. i mean Djokovic 2015? Get outta here Stan - Novak's 2015 one of best single seasons of any player of any era (arguably best in history) and lusting for a first RG. But Stan wins clear victory. Novak even beat Rafa in the RG QF that year!

For his part Wawrinka crack Federer in QF and beat Tsonga in SF. A true Championship. in fact first in > 20 years at RG to beat world No 1 and No. 2. Not quite Delpo 2009 USO but v similar.

BIG.
 
Galvermegs

Galvermegs

Professional
Rafa4LifeEver said:
Definitely. To stay focused and committed to the task despite the possumvic playing his possum acts & winning set 1, was a herculean effort by the Swiss.
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Murray was prone to this trick.
Novak managed a tougher out at ao 13 with longer matches on the hardcourt surface.
I think stan did great to take heart from his win over federer, and put aside memories of losing to novak on clay before.
The serb must have felt relieved to have no rafa in the final for once.. the script was all torn up after a couple of hours.
 
7

7thKingSlam

Rookie
Drob said:
This must be the most impressive of Stan's three slams.

For his part Wawrinka crack Federer in QF and beat Tsonga in SF. A true Championship. in fact first in > 20 years at RG to beat world No 1 and No. 2. Not quite Delpo 2009 USO but v similar.
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Yeah, I'd take it over AO2014 easily. That match vs Djokovic at AO2014 was kinda sloppy on both sides and Nadal was obviously injured in that final. Even before the big tweak in set 2, he was playing very poorly in set 1 and did say he initially tweaked his back in the warmup.

RG2015 QF vs Federer was an underrated performance by Stan. Federer didn't play badly. Sure, Federer was not the clay courter in his later years that he used to be from like 2005-2011 but he played pretty well and still lost in straights, with Wawrinka struggling against him throughout their careers. Tsonga was no pushover that tournament either.

I believe there's some metric online for judging grand slam competition strength and Wawrinka's RG2015 was #1 for the time that this metric measured.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
7thKingSlam said:
Yeah, I'd take it over AO2014 easily. That match vs Djokovic at AO2014 was kinda sloppy on both sides and Nadal was obviously injured in that final. Even before the big tweak in set 2, he was playing very poorly in set 1 and did say he initially tweaked his back in the warmup.

RG2015 QF vs Federer was an underrated performance by Stan. Federer didn't play badly. Sure, Federer was not the clay courter in his later years that he used to be from like 2005-2011 but he played pretty well and still lost in straights, with Wawrinka struggling against him throughout their careers. Tsonga was no pushover that tournament either.

I believe there's some metric online for judging grand slam competition strength and Wawrinka's RG2015 was #1 for the time that this metric measured.
Click to expand...
It's Elo based and both AO 2014 and RG2015 are in top 4.

Of course he beat number 1 and 2 players in both.
 
jl809

jl809

Legend
roysid said:
Djokovic had to play 2 days for semis..total 5 sets. As he couldnt finish murray in 3 sets and the play extended to next day where he played another 2 sets.
With no rest day for him which wawrinka got, i wonder how much that affected his play
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This is the weird thing about Djoker, he doesn’t have a particularly high clay ceiling tbh. Like this was one of his peak years supposedly… and he grinded past Mauresmo-coached Murray in 5 and lost to Stan in 4?

In 2016 he lucked out that he didn’t have to play Stan imo (coupled with Nadal’s injury too… literally the tournament before RG he essentially had to rely on clutch to beat 2016 ClayDal who is probably not even in the top 10 versions of Nadal on clay)

Probably 2013 and 2011 are considered peak clayovic. But 2013 could have finished in 4 sets to Nadal in the SF and we all know what happened at RG in 2011 (in “normal” conditions for RG, I do think he would have had a much better shot)

I do agree with Wasp that part of the issue in this particular match was the passivity of his play. Someone like 2021 Djokovic was much more assertive… but what he gained in aggression he lost in overall consistency for the whole tournament. There’s no sweet spot imo
 
W

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
7thKingSlam said:
Funny that in Novak's two best years (2011/2015), he was not stopped by Nadal at the French Open, but instead an aggressive-playing Swiss in 4-tight sets. Lots of parallels between these two, but which performance would you say was overall better?

Federer served better in 2011 but I'd probably take Wawrinka's performance because of how hard he was to play off the ground.
Click to expand...

I like this '15 performance better. Which performance is better overall is different matter, apples and oranges

Federer in '11 served extremely well. Contender for his best ever on that front (which is saying something)
The court action is all Djokovic leading, Fed counter-punching. Not bad at all from Fed - and nice to see him doing well in unfamiliar territory there
Djoko getting lead footed at times and quite one-dimensional in trying to over-power, beat-down Fed

Wawrinka here just serving normally and match decided by court action
Pretty good butt-kicking one from Stan
I don't like the way Djoko plays. Just pushes, waiting/hoping Stan messes up

Stan is what I call a form player. If he's not in particularly good form, he'll probably been knocked out before semis of event. Which is his norm. And against that norm Stan, this pushing game by Djoko would probably win. Stan can be very sloppy off the ground, and giving him rope and letting him hang himself is good plan
But if he's reached final, that means he's in form. And pushing at him then ... will likely get you exactly what Djoko gets here

After all those 5 setters the 2 played last couple years, would think Djokovic - one of the smartest players around - would know this better than anyone
Its a pity because even a hard-hitting Djoko could lose to good form Stan and could have been a more intense match

Have you seen the Monte Carlo final between Djoko and Berdych?
Ugly match, that Djoko plays the same way as here. Berdych being another guy against who that's pretty safe way to go about beating

Drob said:
"Balanced" - yeah but, 48 winners in 39 games on clay - like you say! That is Guga-like at Guga's classic form.
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"Balanced" as in he waits for good openings to go for his finishing shots
As opposed to just going for them from routine positions. Guga being poster child for doing that

You get the sense here that he'd do ok playing who-blinks-first with a pretty solid Djokovic
With classic form Guga, question of how he'd do playing who-blinks-first doesn't come up - going for flaming winners from all over the court is just what he does
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Waspsting said:
I like this '15 performance better. Which performance is better overall is different matter, apples and oranges

Federer in '11 served extremely well. Contender for his best ever on that front (which is saying something)
The court action is all Djokovic leading, Fed counter-punching. Not bad at all from Fed - and nice to see him doing well in unfamiliar territory there
Djoko getting lead footed at times and quite one-dimensional in trying to over-power, beat-down Fed

Wawrinka here just serving normally and match decided by court action
Pretty good butt-kicking one from Stan
I don't like the way Djoko plays. Just pushes, waiting/hoping Stan messes up

Stan is what I call a form player. If he's not in particularly good form, he'll probably been knocked out before semis of event. Which is his norm. And against that norm Stan, this pushing game by Djoko would probably win. Stan can be very sloppy off the ground, and giving him rope and letting him hang himself is good plan
But if he's reached final, that means he's in form. And pushing at him then ... will likely get you exactly what Djoko gets here

After all those 5 setters the 2 played last couple years, would think Djokovic - one of the smartest players around - would know this better than anyone
Its a pity because even a hard-hitting Djoko could lose to good form Stan and could have been a more intense match

Have you seen the Monte Carlo final between Djoko and Berdych?
Ugly match, that Djoko plays the same way as here. Berdych being another guy against who that's pretty safe way to go about beating


"Balanced" as in he waits for good openings to go for his finishing shots
As opposed to just going for them from routine positions. Guga being poster child for doing that

You get the sense here that he'd do ok playing who-blinks-first with a pretty solid Djokovic
With classic form Guga, question of how he'd do playing who-blinks-first doesn't come up - going for flaming winners from all over the court is just what he does
Click to expand...
jl809 said:
This is the weird thing about Djoker, he doesn’t have a particularly high clay ceiling tbh. Like this was one of his peak years supposedly… and he grinded past Mauresmo-coached Murray in 5 and lost to Stan in 4?

In 2016 he lucked out that he didn’t have to play Stan imo (coupled with Nadal’s injury too… literally the tournament before RG he essentially had to rely on clutch to beat 2016 ClayDal who is probably not even in the top 10 versions of Nadal on clay)

Probably 2013 and 2011 are considered peak clayovic. But 2013 could have finished in 4 sets to Nadal in the SF and we all know what happened at RG in 2011 (in “normal” conditions for RG, I do think he would have had a much better shot)

I do agree with Wasp that part of the issue in this particular match was the passivity of his play. Someone like 2021 Djokovic was much more assertive… but what he gained in aggression he lost in overall consistency for the whole tournament. There’s no sweet spot imo
Click to expand...
A lot of Djokovic fans like his RG 12 and 16 version. I generally think the consensus for NoleFam is 2011-2013/2016
 
H

helterskelter

G.O.A.T.
GRASScaraz said:
This was past prime Wawrinka btw
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OLDrinka was 30 years out of his peak and 20 years past his prime. He just got lucky that it was a Weak Era and thus he got to play someone almost as OLD as him and could overcome the age disadvantage, which would have been prohibitive against Peak Newvak circa 1991.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Who are these nolefams?

I would say 11/15/16 are better than all the middle years. Maybe 13 due to MC but he had very bad Madrid and Rome run in those. 2011 15 and 16 are near his best.



RS said:
A lot of Djokovic fans like his RG 12 and 16 version. I generally think the consensus for NoleFam is 2011-2013/2016
Click to expand...
 
K

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
Novak couldn’t raise his level because he was used to solely playing his base level all season in ‘15. You get into cruise control for so long, beating guys at 75%, suddenly when it’s time to raise it to 95% you realize you’re capped out.

This is why I’m not super high on any 2015 Djokovic sans Wimbledon in peak discussion, why I’m not high on current Sinner in peak discussions, and why I’m not actually high on Andrew Murray at all.
 
Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
helterskelter said:
What other matches are contenders for this? I think it is clearly the best match he played. I guess the 2014 AO win against Djokovic?
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That one was kind of sloppy from both players at times. I think the only other contender in a Slam would be the match with Fed earlier in RG 2015. Sure, Fed wasn’t that good, but Stan put in the legwork there.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
Kralingen said:
Novak couldn’t raise his level because he was used to solely playing his base level all season in ‘15. You get into cruise control for so long, beating guys at 75%, suddenly when it’s time to raise it to 95% you realize you’re capped out.

This is why I’m not super high on any 2015 Djokovic sans Wimbledon in peak discussion, why I’m not high on current Sinner in peak discussions, and why I’m not actually high on Andrew Murray at all.
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Djokovic fans should address this.
 
K

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
Biotic said:
Sure. But, getting super high on 04 Fraud who got embarrassed and admitted he "couldn't do anything" vs one legged previous gen dude who played like 5 matches after that one sounds legit.
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I would just as quickly blame this as a reason for Fed underperforming against Nadal to be honest.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Djokovic level was very high in rg 2015. I completely reject anyone saying otherwise.

It happens sometimes. This Stan played so strong from both sides that he was too much for Djokovic on that day. That's sports.
 
Drob

Drob

Hall of Fame
helterskelter said:
OLDrinka was 30 years out of his peak and 20 years past his prime. He just got lucky that it was a Weak Era and thus he got to play someone almost as OLD as him and could overcome the age disadvantage, which would have been prohibitive against Peak Newvak circa 1991.
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Primes, even peaks vary. not nec tied to age.

30+ primes - Tilden (peak), Gardnar Mulloy (peak), Segura (peak), Drobny, LAVER (peak) Rosewall, Ashe (peak), Agassi, Wawrinka (peak), Djokovic, Gonzalez; arguably von Cramm, Bromwich, Kozeluh, Borotra, et al.
 
duaneeo

duaneeo

Legend
After taking out the king of Roland Garros (who had beaten him in his last 3 appearances), Nole lost the final to a guy who was taken out in the first round the previous year.

This is one of many slam results of a peak/prime Nole that shows why he'll never be considered the GOAT.
 
R

Ray Mercer

Hall of Fame
Loved watching Wawrinka beat the **** out of him in this match. Nike shrunk like a worm and was bullied in this match. He had absolutely no plan B. Nole was terrified of Stan’s power in those years.
 
7

7thKingSlam

Rookie
Waspsting said:
I like this '15 performance better. Which performance is better overall is different matter, apples and oranges

Federer in '11 served extremely well. Contender for his best ever on that front (which is saying something)
The court action is all Djokovic leading, Fed counter-punching. Not bad at all from Fed - and nice to see him doing well in unfamiliar territory there
Djoko getting lead footed at times and quite one-dimensional in trying to over-power, beat-down Fed

Wawrinka here just serving normally and match decided by court action
Pretty good butt-kicking one from Stan
I don't like the way Djoko plays. Just pushes, waiting/hoping Stan messes up

Stan is what I call a form player. If he's not in particularly good form, he'll probably been knocked out before semis of event. Which is his norm. And against that norm Stan, this pushing game by Djoko would probably win. Stan can be very sloppy off the ground, and giving him rope and letting him hang himself is good plan
But if he's reached final, that means he's in form. And pushing at him then ... will likely get you exactly what Djoko gets here

After all those 5 setters the 2 played last couple years, would think Djokovic - one of the smartest players around - would know this better than anyone
Its a pity because even a hard-hitting Djoko could lose to good form Stan and could have been a more intense match

Have you seen the Monte Carlo final between Djoko and Berdych?
Ugly match, that Djoko plays the same way as here. Berdych being another guy against who that's pretty safe way to go
Click to expand...
Yeah I agree Djokovic was passive in this match. 2015 in general I think he was really focused on cruising with a consistent play style, but would bring out his offense when he saw a perceived threat in a big match. Nadal was poor in 2015, but Djokovic was also ruthless against him and playing far more offensive out of respect for how Nadal can break him down/out grind him if he gets too passive. Otherwise though, Djokovic was content trying to outlast most guys.

Haven’t seen that Monte Carlo final in a while that you mentioned, but I remember a lot of Djokovic matches from that 2015-16 period. Throughout his early career, he had a lot of success from bashing people off the court but realized maybe it wasn’t as sustainable. 2015-16 he committed to a more defensive style, and then in 2018-2021 I felt like he became extremely defensive, even getting visibly skinnier during those years. Led to guys like Thiem occasionally bullying him off the court or Medvedev/RBA/PCB being able to grind with him and tire him out.

I’m not sure what it is with Wawrinka in best of 5 that made Djokovic so tight. Maybe Novak just came into this match hoping for Wawrinka to have overwhelming nerves and hit himself off the court. Or maybe he was nervous and didn’t want to hit himself off the court in his best chance to win RG.

nolefam_2024 said:
Who are these nolefams?

I would say 11/15/16 are better than all the middle years. Maybe 13 due to MC but he had very bad Madrid and Rome run in those. 2011 15 and 16 are near his best.
Click to expand...
Yeah 2011/15/16 were his best clay seasons easily overall, but 2013 and 2014 he played amazing at RG. 2011-16 is his clay court peak overall which is ironic considering he only won 1 RG in that span and won 2 after that span. The Nadal (and to a lesser extent big 4) effect was strong.

Biotic said:
Sure. But, getting super high on 04 Fraud who got embarrassed and admitted he "couldn't do anything" vs one legged previous gen dude who played like 5 matches after that one sounds legit.
Click to expand...
Which match are you referring to here, out of curiosity?
 
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