Match video from the weekend

Excellent post, including this point.
Under 4.5, pretty strokes have zero correlation to score, as evidenced by this bagel incident.
Knowing where to stand is one of the least obvious things to a beginner player.
I still have no idea where to stand.
Ultimately, positioning means standing in a way such that it decreases the chance of your opponent hitting shots that are physically/technically difficult for you to hit back.
e.g If you stand inside the baseline, it increases the chance of you receiving a shot that is physically and technically hard to hit back - a shot that lands deep near the baseline, not only because it's deep but because you have less time to react/prepare.

Most importantly, there's no universal way of where to stand. It always depends on 2 factors:
A) Your opponent
B) You

Examples of A:
If you notice, for some reason, your opponent can't hit forehand crosscourt (only dtl fh) then it's wise to stand a bit further to your left
If you notice your opponent always hit short balls, then it's wise to stand closer to the baseline

Examples of B:
If your reaction time is terrible, it's wise not to stay close to the baseline.
If your backhand sucks, it's wise to stay a bit further to the left.

And your goal is to find the balance between A and B.

At higher level, you can also see the difference in positioning between pros, Fed and Rafa are 2 prime examples. Both stand in a different way such that it's physically/technically/strategically easier for them to hit the ball back, thus optimizes their chance of winning.

Optimality is the true perfection.
 
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atp2015

Hall of Fame
Excellent post, including this point.
Under 4.5, pretty strokes have zero correlation to score, as evidenced by this bagel incident.
Knowing where to stand is one of the least obvious things to a beginner player.
I still have no idea where to stand.
Curious is a smart player and moves very well around the court compared to his opponent.
I see many half baked strokes from curious. He hits io forehand with dtl feet setup. His cc forehand is tough to hit well because of the technique he uses. Cc forehand is rather week and he is not hitting the ball. He could have angled away many balls cc when they were short. Instead he hits dtl right to the opponent and gets passed.
He needs a better net game to clean up many weak replies from someone who just bunts the ball back.
Curious needs to produce better shots and his overall approach to point play looks good.
In a way, curious has enrolled in college and the opponent has decided to take up a pizza delivery job after highschool , of course he has more money right now.
 
In a way, curious has enrolled in college and the opponent has decided to take up a pizza delivery job after highschool , of course he has more money right now.
Most who go to college get a degree that never translates to a career, just lots of student loan debt.
You are incorrect in assuming he will automatically beat Auresh, if he just keeps at it.
Human wall Auresh is only getting bageled by a strong 4.0 or 4.5 and to there might take a decade.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Most who go to college get a degree that never translates to a career, just lots of student loan debt.
You are incorrect in assuming he will automatically beat Auresh, if he just keeps at it.
Human wall Auresh is only getting bageled by a strong 4.0 or 4.5 and to there might take a decade.
It depends on whether he is going to clean up his shots - it's a typical problem. See the picture below - his wt xfer is all messed up and feet flying everywhere on a simple forehand.
(right leg is planted and left is in air, it should be the reverse - just one example)
If you see the video (0:18) , you will notice more problems. He let the ball drop and wait for the ball to come instead of moving forward to attack - though he had time.
They are not hard to fix and but need to recognize and fix them. Otherwise, it will take ages. I heard pretty strokes - sorry, I don't see pretty strokes, I see free swings and not refined shots. I see not well coordinated but faster swing. Need to build fast swings on strong/correct fundamentals. Auresh will be a wall if curios allows him to be.

 
I was actually thinking this morning ' if I serve to his backhand only I would probably win the set'. If I also hit to his backhand during the point as well it will be even easier to win.

Anyway thanks everyone for your comments. I will need to read and think about them later when I have time.
 
I was actually thinking this morning ' if I serve to his backhand only I would probably win the set'. If I also hit to his backhand during the point as well it will be even easier to win.

Anyway thanks everyone for your comments. I will need to read and think about them later when I have time.
I always run into this dilemma ... winning percentage tennis is often boring tennis. If you are playing a tournament match, you would hit 99/100 balls to someone's bh if that is what worked. If it's a practice match, or for fun ... it is often not much fun (or practice) to hit everything to opponent/friend's weakness (bh). Well ... you are practicing winning point/pattern construction, which we all have to do. But it's not a great way to get stroke practice.

I just hit with my rookie the other day ... a typical rec player with a fh way better than his bh. We play 11 point games, and I end up hitting him mainly strike zone fhs so we get a decent hit. I also bag the 1hbh slice and hit 2hbh so I can continue to work on it. He does pretty good when I play this way, but wasn't aware I hit to his fh on purpose. I decided to have a teachable moment, and played an entire 11 point game hitting everything to his bh. I hit nothing but off pace low block/slice ros, and 1hbh cc slice. His 1hbh can look pretty decent if I hit him some pace and in the strike zone ... but he makes a ton of errors off the low off pace slice. That is very typical ... even playing higher level players ... we all prefer a ball we can hit. He barely won a point, and I asked him after what I had done different that game. He guessed a bunch of things, but he had no idea he just hit almost every ball with his bh. I finally told him ... he thought about it ... and got it. I think he said "so I should hit to your 2hbh". EXACTLY grasshopper. (y)
 
I was actually thinking this morning ' if I serve to his backhand only I would probably win the set'. If I also hit to his backhand during the point as well it will be even easier to win.

Anyway thanks everyone for your comments. I will need to read and think about them later when I have time.
btw ... your opponent (higher level version of him) is the type of player that made me go to s&v. It's hard to beat the human backboards that don't miss a lot, even if they are one wing bandits (fh) that block bhs in. But ... can't pass with that bh (only lob), and not likely to handle moderate kicker serve to bh. By simply coming to the net on their bh ... you have bypassed that steady baseline game. Most rec players can't hit consistent passing shots with bh ... we should all help them work on it. :cool:
 
It depends on whether he is going to clean up his shots - it's a typical problem. See the picture below - his wt xfer is all messed up and feet flying everywhere on a simple forehand.
(right leg is planted and left is in air, it should be the reverse - just one example)
If you see the video (0:18) , you will notice more problems. He let the ball drop and wait for the ball to come instead of moving forward to attack - though he had time.
They are not hard to fix and but need to recognize and fix them. Otherwise, it will take ages. I heard pretty strokes - sorry, I don't see pretty strokes, I see free swings and not refined shots. I see not well coordinated but faster swing. Need to build fast swings on strong/correct fundamentals. Auresh will be a wall if curios allows him to be.


Quite correct. It seems that Curious is self-conscious about his play; it isn't 'natural' yet, which at six years it should be. I don't see recognition or anticipation of what is coming, or likely to come, from his opponent. Those Indian guys are crafty and quick, but many have weak backhands because they don't change to a backhand grip. They they were never taught properly.
 
Good playing Curious,,,,Having seen many players of Indian decent, (i'm assuming the other guy is Indian)..Unless they have some tennis training; many of them play like in the video..Completely one handed self developed style (no use of the left hand)..maybe Sureshs can shed some light?..Is this from cricket?
I observed the same thing!
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Quite correct. It seems that Curious is self-conscious about his play; it isn't 'natural' yet, which at six years it should be. I don't see recognition or anticipation of what is coming, or likely to come, from his opponent. Those Indian guys are crafty and quick, but many have weak backhands because they don't change to a backhand grip. They they were never taught properly.
I don't understand why these Aussies and indians hit with nipples to the net.
The sport of cricket which is popular in those countries has the batter in ready position already with the unit turn.
The cricket bat is wielded with 2 hands, what's the affinity with 1 handed scoops.
May be the missing helmet is making them out of place...

 
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I don't understand why these Aussies and indians hit with nipples to the net.
The sport of cricket which is popular in those countries has the batter in ready position already with the unit turn.
Cricket is bat is wielded with 2 hands, what's the affinity with 1 handed scoops.
May be the missing helmet is making them out of place...

Look around. You’ll see plenty there also. It’s normal human behaviour!
 
I don't understand why these Aussies and indians hit with nipples to the net.
The sport of cricket which is popular in those countries has the batter in ready position already with the unit turn.
The cricket bat is wielded with 2 hands, what's the affinity with 1 handed scoops.
May be the missing helmet is making them out of place...

Yeah I don't think it's cricket rubbing off on tennis at all. Since I started off with coaching, I have no idea why people taking up the game in India stay open stance and hit everything with one hand. I think they don't understand that a down to up trajectory is still required in the swing and it's not flat.
 
I'm opening a new chapter, once again! I'm going back to senior tennis.
I believe I'm trying to hit beyond my abilities. I will try to adopt the calmness and swing speed of this taller guy in white shirt. He is so much at peace with the ball while I'm constantly at war!
By the way this match is a real backhand slice fest. Worth watching till the last second.


 
I'm opening a new chapter, once again! I'm going back to senior tennis.
I believe I'm trying to hit beyond my abilities. I will try to adopt the calmness and swing speed of this taller guy in white shirt. He is so much at peace with the ball while I'm constantly at war!
By the way this match is a real backhand slice fest. Worth watching till the last second.


These guys understand tennis. You can see that through their shots. Just amazing.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
I'm opening a new chapter, once again! I'm going back to senior tennis.
Vines was 110 in the world at one point!

Senior tennis = time to start working on your slice BH :)

Also, notice how consistent the good senior players are, nothing fancy on the neutral ball rallies, just consistency and depth...
 
Absolutely. Great pleasure to watch. They probably swing at 50% of their max. I can’t wait to have a hit again. I’m a transformed man now!:p
Note that they make very clean contact, hitting in or near the sweet spot of the racquet on almost every shot. When you can do that you don't need a huge amount of RHS.

Also, depth and placement are much more effective than blasting a shot down the middle. Anything within reach is likely to come back, maybe at an angle that will be difficult to return.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
I'm opening a new chapter, once again! I'm going back to senior tennis.
I believe I'm trying to hit beyond my abilities. I will try to adopt the calmness and swing speed of this taller guy in white shirt. He is so much at peace with the ball while I'm constantly at war!
By the way this match is a real backhand slice fest. Worth watching till the last second.


What's really remarkable is the footwork, unit turn and wt transfer. You could see the athetes in them - feet spread apart while hitting, low center of gravity, bent knees to use the big quads and the glutes. These are refined shot making and see the quality of shot production. Placement and strategy comes next imo.
The focus is putting the body right at the ball and not swinging fast with the arm. Rarely see an open stance twirl of the arm.
See the massive shoulder turn and uncoil.
Somehow reminded me of @Topspin Shot and his use of body to power the ball.
TBH, the shots from Robinson are powerful though he does not seem to swing fast.
 
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What's really remarkable is the footwork, unit turn and wt transfer. You could see the athetes in them - feet spread apart while hitting, low center of gravity, bent knees to use the big quads and the glutes. These are refined shot making and see the quality of shot production. Placement and strategy comes next imo.
The focus is putting the body right at the ball and not swinging fast with the arm. Rarely see an open stance twirl of the arm.
See the massive shoulder turn And uncoil.
Somehow reminded me of @Topspin Shot and his use of body to power the ball.
TBH, the shots from Robinson are powerful though he does not seem to swing fast.
both guys are lefty
 
That’s exactly what I was thinking too. Mine would be like 30%!:oops:
About the utility of the 1hbh slice 8-B. That said, Vines took over when his drive 1hbh got hot. Note ... didn't need huge pace or spin to be lethal. The typical rec player (not Vines) that has a never miss bh slice, with a finishing bh drive is a lot tougher problem than a bh slice only player. Percentage wise, that is how I should play with my 2hbh ... slice, slice, slice ... 2hbh finisher when presented. The problem with that is the 1000s of ball machine 2hbhs "just to hit occasionally". :eek:

btw ... I made the comment that your (only 6 years) limited your variety of shot. Then I realized you have twice the experience of my 2hbh. No wonder my 2hbh has limited "variety". TTW Comment karma. :-D
 
@ByeByePoly definitely has some tennis experience under his belt :)
I ran into the guy today at my stringers shop who was tournament director during my so called "experience". I told him I have been learning about all the tennis technique I never had, and I remember him calling me "maximum hustle" when I turned the balls in after a match... knowing full well he meant winning in spite of my lack of skills. He just smiled ... and said ... man you could cover a court. :p
 
You are on the right path to 4.0 You will find the balance.
Learn to be a pusher, but swing out when you are in position for the big strokes also.

Slice fest? Oh, you mean like the GOAT Fed who slices 35% of his BHs?
I love the nice and easy style. My mind wants to play like a junior but my body keeps reminding me that I’m a senior!
Yeah great slices. They seem to slice 90% on backhand wing.
 
Arguably Edberg and McEnroe are the best players in the world at their respective ages, and neither has a topspin FH as their main weapon...

You're advocating a one-size-fits-all approach to rec tennis...
Right. I go entire matches without hitting baseline shots, just returns of serve, approach shots, and volleys. More people would benefit from this style of play. It is also less tiring, a factor as you age.
 
It's been no fun lately. More like pain, frustration, self-doubt, fear and so on. I came very close to smashing my beautiful PT630 today. It really sank in my heart that I would never get rid of this fear of mine that grabs me as soon as the point play starts. The panic I experience when my opponent is about to hit the ball. What am I gonna do now? Am I at the right spot? Should I have gotten a little closer to the centre mark? No no I am almost inside the baseline, what am I doing? Oh my God now the ball is coming. Sh1t! it's too fast! Why am I just watching it until it bounces on my side without turning shoulders and getting ready to hit, see it made me jam up again, oh I think I felt something in my elbow also. Let me send it back crosscourt, good, but how high? Bloody hell man, just clear the net for god's sake! Is my racket face too close? I feel like it might be but anyway I'll just swwing. Bang! Landed 2 m behind the baseline.
 
It's been no fun lately. More like pain, frustration, self-doubt, fear and so on. I came very close to smashing my beautiful PT630 today. It really sank in my heart that I would never get rid of this fear of mine that grabs me as soon as the point play starts. The panic I experience when my opponent is about to hit the ball. What am I gonna do now? Am I at the right spot? Should I have gotten a little closer to the centre mark? No no I am almost inside the baseline, what am I doing? Oh my God now the ball is coming. Sh1t! it's too fast! Why am I just watching it until it bounces on my side without turning shoulders and getting ready to hit, see it made me jam up again, oh I think I felt something in my elbow also. Let me send it back crosscourt, good, but how high? Bloody hell man, just clear the net for god's sake! Is my racket face too close? I feel like it might be but anyway I'll just swwing. Bang! Landed 2 m behind the baseline.
That's like a whole TTW thread in your head in 2 seconds flat. I'm impressed 8-B

Have you ever just gone out there for the fun of it, just to enjoy it?

Sounds like you're trying too hard to perfect it. Your sparring partner doesn't care about his ball toss or such things, he just hits it.
 
It's been no fun lately. More like pain, frustration, self-doubt, fear and so on. I came very close to smashing my beautiful PT630 today. It really sank in my heart that I would never get rid of this fear of mine that grabs me as soon as the point play starts. The panic I experience when my opponent is about to hit the ball. What am I gonna do now? Am I at the right spot? Should I have gotten a little closer to the centre mark? No no I am almost inside the baseline, what am I doing? Oh my God now the ball is coming. Sh1t! it's too fast! Why am I just watching it until it bounces on my side without turning shoulders and getting ready to hit, see it made me jam up again, oh I think I felt something in my elbow also. Let me send it back crosscourt, good, but how high? Bloody hell man, just clear the net for god's sake! Is my racket face too close? I feel like it might be but anyway I'll just swwing. Bang! Landed 2 m behind the baseline.
Awesome post ... good for me ... guess that is selfish on my part. Maybe try a pot brownie before your match.
 
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