Matching Racquets: Balance or Weight?

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
When matching two of the same frame do you put priority on matching balance point or static weight to make them play as similar as possible?

I have two Head G360 Predtige MP. With the same head leather grip, strings, dampener and overgrip one is 339 grams and one is 343 without butt caps. I have two butt caps one is the standard tk219s 2 gram one is a TK219HR with a weight built in at 7 grams.

If I put the heavier butt cap in the lighter 339 frame and the 2 gram butt cap in the 343 frame they both come out to 346 grams.

The catch is the one with the heavier butt cap is 12.5” balance or 8pts HL and the one with the lighter cap is 12.65” or 7 pts HL. I could add some weight to the 2 gram butt cap to get it to about 5-6 grams and then the balance points would match but that frame would end up at around 350.

Long story short, do I leave the static weights matched and balance points off by 1 or match the balance points and have one frame 3-4 grams heavier?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Match the racket torque (mass times balance) first. Then raise the RW by the SW difference placing equal weight on both sides of the balance point on the lower SW racket and the same weight at the balance point on the other racket. Done! Weight, balance, and SW will be exactly the same on both rackets.

if you can swap butt caps and dampeners to make it easier fine but you’re getting too complicated.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@CosmosMpower if I were you I would calculate weight in grams and balance in mm. This makes it much easier to be extremely accurate if you weight, balance, and inertia calculates are accurate.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
When matching two of the same frame do you put priority on matching balance point or static weight to make them play as similar as possible?

I have two Head G360 Predtige MP. With the same head leather grip, strings, dampener and overgrip one is 339 grams and one is 343 without butt caps. I have two butt caps one is the standard tk219s 2 gram one is a TK219HR with a weight built in at 7 grams.

If I put the heavier butt cap in the lighter 339 frame and the 2 gram butt cap in the 343 frame they both come out to 346 grams.

The catch is the one with the heavier butt cap is 12.5” balance or 8pts HL and the one with the lighter cap is 12.65” or 7 pts HL. I could add some weight to the 2 gram butt cap to get it to about 5-6 grams and then the balance points would match but that frame would end up at around 350.

Long story short, do I leave the static weights matched and balance points off by 1 or match the balance points and have one frame 3-4 grams heavier?
Go with static weight. You will not be able to feel 1 pt balance different but you will feel a weight difference.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Go with static weight. You will not be able to feel 1 pt balance different but you will feel a weight difference.
RW and weight being equal a 1 pt difference in balance (0.3175 cm) makes about a 5 point difference in SW.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
When matching two of the same frame do you put priority on matching balance point or static weight to make them play as similar as possible?

I have two Head G360 Predtige MP. With the same head leather grip, strings, dampener and overgrip one is 339 grams and one is 343 without butt caps. I have two butt caps one is the standard tk219s 2 gram one is a TK219HR with a weight built in at 7 grams.

If I put the heavier butt cap in the lighter 339 frame and the 2 gram butt cap in the 343 frame they both come out to 346 grams.

The catch is the one with the heavier butt cap is 12.5” balance or 8pts HL and the one with the lighter cap is 12.65” or 7 pts HL. I could add some weight to the 2 gram butt cap to get it to about 5-6 grams and then the balance points would match but that frame would end up at around 350.

Long story short, do I leave the static weights matched and balance points off by 1 or match the balance points and have one frame 3-4 grams heavier?
Balance first, then weight for me.
 

BlueB

Legend
Match the Swing Weight first, to within 2 kg*cm², then Balance to within 1 point (3mm), then Weight itself stops being to much of a problem. Even 5-10g you won't feel much.
 

Yamin

Semi-Pro
I'm guessing by the way you worded the question you don't have an accurate way to get swing weight?

If that's the case definitely balance over static weight.
 
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CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
I'm guessing by the way you worded the question you don't have an accurate way to get swing weight?

If that's the case definitely balance over static weight.
Correct don’t have a 2k babolat rdc laying around.
Is it possible to have matched static and balance on two frames and still have different swing weight?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Correct don’t have a 2k babolat rdc laying around.
Is it possible to have matched static and balance on two frames and still have different swing weight?
It is possible to have matched weight and balance and have different SW. you do not need and RDC to match weight balance and SW. you can use the TW method of pivoting the rackets on a string to check SW. it may not be accurate but as long as you rackets and method of measurement are the same if you’re off both rackets are off the same.

The process of matching torque and RW I mentioned is simple, easy, and works every time. If you like, I can grab a few rackets and give you an example of the process.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
@CosmosMpower as a matter of fact you do not need to measure SW to match rackets. You could pivot (rock) 2 rackets side by side. Chances are the 2 rackets will not rock at the same speed. The faster racket has the lowest inertia. You can move a weight up or down on a racket to adjust the timing just like you would adjust the timing on a pendulum clock.

EDIT: Assume you were using a 2 g weight moving it up and down the racket and you found when the weight was 41.6 cm from the butt both racket rock at the same speed. Because the weight was 31.6 cm above the SW axis and I = mr^2 you difference in SW with the weight is 31.6*31.6*.002 or 2 SW points. To match the rackets let’s assume your balance was at 32 cm. To increase RW by 2 points you need to place equal weight at equal distances above and below the balance point. Let’s use 31 cm (above and below the balance) in this example. To increase inertia by 2 points I = mr^2 so m = I/r^2 then m = 2/(31*31) = 2. Put 1 g at 1 cm and 1 g at 63 cm. Now you increased the RW by 2 point and balance remains the same But you increased the weight by 2 g. So add 2 g at the balance point on the other racket. RW does not change, balance does not change and weight is now matched.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
When matching two of the same frame do you put priority on matching balance point or static weight to make them play as similar as possible?
If you put priority on weight OR balance you’re wasting your time 1 is an important as the other. It is just as easy to match both at the same time.
The catch is the one with the heavier butt cap is 12.5” balance or 8pts HL and the one with the lighter cap is 12.65” or 7 pts HL. I could add some weight to the 2 gram butt cap to get it to about 5-6 grams and then the balance points would match but that frame would end up at around 350.
That’s ok if you can handle a 350 gram racket.
Long story short, do I leave the static weights matched and balance points off by 1 or match the balance points and have one frame 3-4 grams heavier?
Neither. Put the heavy cap on the lighter racket and forget about matching anything.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
If you put priority on weight OR balance you’re wasting your time 1 is an important as the other. It is just as easy to match both at the same time.

That’s ok if you can handle a 350 gram racket.

Neither. Put the heavy cap on the lighter racket and forget about matching anything.
If one racquet is heavier to start with and more head heavy and one is lighter to start with and more head light the only way to match both balance and weight is to keep adding weight on both until they ultimately match, which is not the goal. I don't want two 360 gram Prestiges, if I did I'd just use my VCP 330. I want somewhere around 345-350 static and both around 8.5 HL.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
If one racquet is heavier to start with and more head heavy and one is lighter to start with and more head light the only way to match both balance and weight is to keep adding weight on both until they ultimately match, which is not the goal. I don't want two 360 gram Prestiges, if I did I'd just use my VCP 330. I want somewhere around 345-350 static and both around 8.5 HL.
Are you able to get the "heavy" one to be this, " I want somewhere around 345-350 static and both around 8.5 HL."
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
Are you able to get the "heavy" one to be this, " I want somewhere around 345-350 static and both around 8.5 HL."
Yep, it will take right around 350-351 grams to get it to 8.5 HL. The light one can achieve 8.5HL with just around 346 grams. What I did was hot glue a small 5 gram lead weight into the standard 2 gram butt cup of the heavier racquet to get it to 350-351 and around 8.5 HL. I'm trying to find another TK219HR weighted head butt cap if I like this setup for long term.

Nice GT4 by the way
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
If one racquet is heavier to start with and more head heavy and one is lighter to start with and more head light the only way to match both balance and weight is to keep adding weight on both until they ultimately match, which is not the goal. I don't want two 360 gram Prestiges, if I did I'd just use my VCP 330. I want somewhere around 345-350 static and both around 8.5 HL.
The bold part is never true. If mass is higher and balance is higher torque will be higher. Torque is mass times balance. Multiply the mass and balance of the 2 rackets to get the torque and subtract to find the difference. Also find the difference in weight. Assuming the torque difference is 50 and the weight difference is 5 g, you need to add 5 g to the lighter racket at 10 cm to add 50 gcm of torque and the weight and balance will be exactly the same.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
If a heavier racket has a low enough balance point that makes the torque lower than the torque of another racket then and only then will you need to add weight to all rackets.

EDIT: That’s the only scenario no matter how many rackets you’re matching when weight needs to added to all rackets.
 
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CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
The bold part is never true. If mass is higher and balance is higher torque will be higher. Torque is mass times balance. Multiply the mass and balance of the 2 rackets to get the torque and subtract to find the difference. Also find the difference in weight. Assuming the torque difference is 50 and the weight difference is 5 g, you need to add 5 g to the lighter racket at 10 cm to add 50 gcm of torque and the weight and balance will be exactly the same.
The goal is not to make the lighter racquet less ideal (heavier) in order to match the heavier racquet, it plays great.

The lighter racquet is around 346 grams, 8.5 HL, that is the desired outcome. The heavier racquet is 346 grams, but 7.5 HL. I have no desire to change the lighter racquet that's at 8.5HL already at all.

The only question here is do I leave the 7.5HL racquet at 346 (matching static weight to the first racquet) or do I add tail weight until it gets to 8.5 HL to play more closely to the other one?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The goal is not to make the lighter racquet less ideal (heavier) in order to match the heavier racquet, it plays great.
So you want to make the heavier racket lighter? What part do you want to get rid of?

EDIT: Buy rackets with low specs so you can build them up to your custom specs.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
So you want to make the heavier racket lighter? What part do you want to get rid of?

EDIT: Buy rackets with low specs so you can build them up to your custom specs.
No, I'm asking if I should leave the weights matched and balance points off or make the 7.5HL racquet heavier in order to match balance point of the lighter one. It's a pretty simple question really....
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
No, I'm asking if I should leave the weights matched and balance points off or make the 7.5HL racquet heavier in order to match balance point of the lighter one. It's a pretty simple question really....
What your asking if if we think you should make the lighter racket you like heavier so it will be more like the one you like the least. No.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
No, I'm asking if I should leave the weights matched and balance points off or make the 7.5HL racquet heavier in order to match balance point of the lighter one. It's a pretty simple question really....
The simple answer is, it depends.

When I add lead tape to the hoop of a racket I am aware of it, even down to 2g. It's like I can feel the density of the material compared to the rest of the frame. Conversely, I find I don't notice weight in the butt cap at all, up to whatever a US quarter taped to the cap weighs (that's as much as I've ever cared to try)

So, all this to say that I think static weight, balance, and swingweight are not complete pictures of how a racket feels and swings in the hand. I have never bothered to calculate torque the way @Irvin does.

You kind of have to experiment a bit for yourself to find what matters to you.

Some people think it's imperative that you counterbalance any lead you add to the hoop, but I found it made no difference to me. So I never bother to counterbalance.
 

Yamin

Semi-Pro
The lighter racquet is around 346 grams, 8.5 HL, that is the desired outcome. The heavier racquet is 346 grams, but 7.5 HL. I have no desire to change the lighter racquet that's at 8.5HL already at all.

The only question here is do I leave the 7.5HL racquet at 346 (matching static weight to the first racquet) or do I add tail weight until it gets to 8.5 HL to play more closely to the other one?
Nice this makes it very simple and clear. Putty in the trap door of the head heavy option will give you that balance difference with negligible static weight difference. In this situation you'd feel the balance much more than you would what... like 3-6 grams of static weight? Go run with a penny or two in your hand and see if you're more tired lol.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
Nice this makes it very simple and clear. Putty in the trap door of the head heavy option will give you that balance difference with negligible static weight difference. In this situation you'd feel the balance much more than you would what... like 3 grams of static weight? Go run with a penny in your hand and see if you're more tired lol.
You'd be surprised, changing between the factory synthetic grip and leather grip was about 6-7 grams of static weight difference and all pretty far down low on the frame but I could definitely tell it felt heavier especially on serves and overheads.
 

Yamin

Semi-Pro
You'd be surprised, changing between the factory synthetic grip and leather grip was about 6-7 grams of static weight difference and all pretty far down low on the frame but I could definitely tell it felt heavier especially on serves and overheads.
Then remove your leather grip, go back to synthetic, and still put putty in the trap door lol. Assuming nothing wildly out of spec tolerance, Swing weight > Balance >>>>>>>>>>>>Static Weight
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
Then remove your leather grip, go back to synthetic, and still put putty in the trap door lol.
nah switching to the light butt cap allowed me to keep the leather grip. Now static weight is matched but that one is still not as head light
 

Yamin

Semi-Pro
nah switching to the light butt cap allowed me to keep the leather grip. Now static weight is matched but that one is still not as head light
So I guess you've answered your own question with your static weight experience. Just leave it be. Mix up the rackets. Forget which is which.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
The goal is not to make the lighter racquet less ideal (heavier) in order to match the heavier racquet, it plays great.

The lighter racquet is around 346 grams, 8.5 HL, that is the desired outcome. The heavier racquet is 346 grams, but 7.5 HL. I have no desire to change the lighter racquet that's at 8.5HL already at all.

The only question here is do I leave the 7.5HL racquet at 346 (matching static weight to the first racquet) or do I add tail weight until it gets to 8.5 HL to play more closely to the other one?
If 346gm and 8.5HL is your desired spec, you will NOT be able to match the 346gm 7.5HL racquet without adding weight. Back to the original question, which is more important to you, weight or balance. If you want 346 gm, then accept your balance will be 1HL off. If you are OK adding a little weight to both racquets, you can match BOTH weight and balance, but now SW will likely be off. In the absence of matching everything, you must pick the most important to you and go from there.
 
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Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
So, all this to say that I think static weight, balance, and swingweight are not complete pictures of how a racket feels and swings in the hand. I have never bothered to calculate torque the way @Irvin does.
By calculating torque you can match weight and balance exactly with the minimum amount of weight often only adding weight to the lightest racket w/lowest torque. Once torque is matched you match Inertia with the least amount of weight added to both rackets unless both rackets both have the same SW (inertia aka RW.)

EDIT: Once you have matched the rackets you can customize your specs to you preferred specs doing the same to all rackets.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
If 346gm and 8.5HL is your desired spec, you will NOT be able to match the 346gm 7.5HL racquet without adding weight. Back to the original question, which is more important to you, weight or balance. If you want 346 gm, then accept your balance will be 1HL off. If you are OK adding a little weight to both racquets, you can match BOTH weight and balance, but now SW will likely be off. In the absence of matching everything, you must pick the moat important to you and go from there.
I know that the 346, 8.5 HL racquet plays great. I bought that one first then bought a second one which with the same grip, strings, etc comes out to 7.5 HL. I'd like the second one to feel/play as close as possible to the original one. I don't care if I achieve that by getting the static weight to be an exact match or the balance to be an exact match. I'm just trying to figure out what variable not matching will be less obvious to having the frame play like the first one i'm matching to.

I'll probably go play a few matches with some weight added but the balance points matched and see if I can tell a difference.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I know that the 346, 8.5 HL racquet plays great. I bought that one first then bought a second one which with the same grip, strings, etc comes out to 7.5 HL. I'd like the second one to feel/play as close as possible to the original one. I don't care if I achieve that by getting the static weight to be an exact match or the balance to be an exact match. I'm just trying to figure out what variable not matching will be less obvious to having the frame play like the first one i'm matching to.
Forget weight and balance and match SW.
 

JackB1

G.O.A.T.
Swingweight is most important, but if you can't measure that exactly, then match weight and balance. Then play with both and see if they "feel" the same while playing. If one swings lighter than the other, slowly add weight to the tip to bring swingweight up with the minimal amount of added weight. At least that's how I would do it. Keep in mind that 2 racquets can have the same static weight and balance point and still have different swingweights.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
So I hit the 2nd frame with matched static and unmatched balance point it felt much more noticeable compared to matched balance point but heavier static weight. So seems to me that it’s much easier to tell a difference in 1 balance point difference than 5 grams difference.
 

Crashbaby

Semi-Pro
Agreed on balance mattering more than 5g static. Sounds like you found your best compromise without fully matching the sticks. If they play similar, you may already have similar Swingweights and you are all set apart from the dilemma of whether or not you are now a Head player or just having a fling behind the Vcore’s back? :unsure:
Variety is the spice of life, that’s what I tell myself....
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
Agreed on balance mattering more than 5g static. Sounds like you found your best compromise without fully matching the sticks. If they play similar, you may already have similar Swingweights and you are all set apart from the dilemma of whether or not you are now a Head player or just having a fling behind the Vcore’s back? :unsure:
Variety is the spice of life, that’s what I tell myself....
Time will tell but I won a 4.0 usta doubles tournament last weekend playing some matches with the Prestige MP so it may have a good shot for primary duty. For practice or messing around I love using all the different frames I own.
 

Crashbaby

Semi-Pro
So do I, but I’m not winning anything like you are! I also enjoy using different sticks regularly. I’m wanting to commit but just can’t seem to play with a stick nonstop longer than a month. I have a bad day or days and switch/rotate, but it just seems to be a merry go round of honeymooning... :)
 

Brad N.

New User
I would try to match everything then make micro adjustments with lead tape around the hoop or throat.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
/\/\/\/\
This. SW is one you will "feel" the most.
Most people are going to tell you that SW is what you feel in a racket but I am not sure I agree with that. I believe weight and balance are just as important as inertia. SW just like RW and TW are measurements of inertia on a tennis racket. If one looks at the formula for SW it will help to understand why SW alone is not all that great.

SW = RW + mr^2

RW is the inertia at the center of mass for a tennis racket. The higher the RW the more polar a racket is. RW can vary a great deal dependent on how the mass is distributed in a racket. If I have 2 rackets with the weight and balance matched then the product of mass times the distant from the SW axis and the balance point (mr^2) are the same. BUT if the RWs are not matched SW is not the same. OTOH RWs could be identical for 2 racket and the product of mr^2 the same even though the mass and balance is different. Then the SW will be the same but the rackets may feel different. Only when the RW, mass, and balance are all the same on identical rackets do you have the best chance of getting the feel the same. And even then if you TW, stiffness, or grips are different it may not work right.
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
Then of course, begs the question, if you had two rackets that were very close in specs you can measure and calculate, but "off" enough that you can feel it only when you pick one up after the other, would you really play any better with one or the other if you blindly grabbed one out of the bag?

I doubt it.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
Most people are going to tell you that SW is what you feel in a racket but I am not sure I agree with that. I believe weight and balance are just as important as inertia. SW just like RW and TW are measurements of inertia on a tennis racket. If one looks at the formula for SW it will help to understand why SW alone is not all that great.

SW = RW + mr^2

RW is the inertia at the center of mass for a tennis racket. The higher the RW the more polar a racket is. RW can vary a great deal dependent on how the mass is distributed in a racket. If I have 2 rackets with the weight and balance matched then the product of mass times the distant from the SW axis and the balance point (mr^2) are the same. BUT if the RWs are not matched SW is not the same. OTOH RWs could be identical for 2 racket and the product of mr^2 the same even though the mass and balance is different. Then the SW will be the same but the rackets may feel different. Only when the RW, mass, and balance are all the same on identical rackets do you have the best chance of getting the feel the same. And even then if you TW, stiffness, or grips are different it may not work right.
Sure. Most people probably aren't sensitive enough for a lot of these measurements, but if you give a player a low SW racquet and a high SW racquet and ask which is easier to swing, the response will likely be the lower SW.
For myself, I start with weight and balance to get them close, then finish by getting SW to match in my preferred range 325-330. After that any differences are so small I can't "feel" them.
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
I start with weight and balance to get them close, then finish by getting SW to match in my preferred range 325-330. After that any differences are so small I can't "feel" them.
What you said is as easy (for me) as it gets. And when I’m done they are as accurate as my specs and measurements.
 

CosmosMpower

Hall of Fame
Then of course, begs the question, if you had two rackets that were very close in specs you can measure and calculate, but "off" enough that you can feel it only when you pick one up after the other, would you really play any better with one or the other if you blindly grabbed one out of the bag?

I doubt it.
I could tell the difference in balance when playing. Mainly on serves and approach shots to the net where you need a whippy action to flick it over the net on the way in. On the more head heavy racquet it felt sluggish and I was sometimes late to contact.
 
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