Medvedev- Facing Djokovic is easier than Nadal

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
And I said over a career. You guys always want to cherrypick periods of Nadal's career that favor his opponent. I prefer to be fair and analyse the match-up over their whole careers.

Nadal has the career advantadge in slams H2H over Djokovic. When their careers are over, the cherrypicking of dates won't work.
But it's pretty relevant. Nadal lead early on but since 2011, when Djokovic peaked, the roles revered. He has not been a match issue for Djokovic at any point after that. This is reality not cherry picking. I mean if you want me to cherry pick, then Nadal is 10-21 against Djokovic since January 2011.

Yes and..? It's bolstered by a 6-1 lead at his best Slam. That's what cherry picking is and you are doing it pretty well.
 
I still think some are having difficulty differentiating between these two things.
Most people here don't understand the difference. Even though Medvedev pushed Nadal to the limits in USO final, there was no feeling that he is a very tough matchup for Nadal. Med was just playing on a very high level and was extremely clutch on most big points, that's what made it close. On the other hand I always thought Zverev is a nightmare matchup for Nadal, even though Nadal won all of their meetings until WTF this year. (though some of them couldn't be any closer). But when I wrote that most users laughed at me.
 
They clearly are.
Well, you also didn't take my comments about Zverev being a nightmare matchup for Nadal on hardcourt seriously. Most of the time Nadal has a higher level of play between the two, but as for the matchup Zverev can give him lots of trouble.
 

Hitman

Professional
Most people here don't understand the difference. Even though Medvedev pushed Nadal to the limits in USO final, there was no feeling that he is a very tough matchup for Nadal. Med was just playing on a very high level and was extremely clutch on most big points, that's what made it close. On the other hand I always thought Zverev is a nightmare matchup for Nadal, even though Nadal won all of their meetings until WTF this year. (though some of them couldn't be any closer). But when I wrote that most users laughed at me.
Exactly. Medvedev's level gave us an all mighty final, because he stepped up, but Nadal was still enjoying the natural match up the two had.

Safin had a match up problem with Federer, yet at AO 2005 his level of play helped him nullify it to the point he was neck and neck with peak Federer and beat him.
 
Exactly. Medvedev's level gave us an all mighty final, because he stepped up, but Nadal was still enjoying the natural match up the two had.

Safin had a match up problem with Federer, yet at AO 2005 his level of play helped him nullify it to the point he was neck and neck with peak Federer and beat him.
2005 AO Safin and 2019 USO Medvedev grouped together, WeakDrool's propaganda working its sinister charms huh.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Well, you also didn't take my comments about Zverev being a nightmare matchup for Nadal on hardcourt seriously. Most of the time Nadal has a higher level of play between the two, but as for the matchup Zverev can give him lots of trouble.
I just don't see a matchup issue if someone has never beaten a player though although I will say maybe I should have taken into consideration how close their matches were—but Nadal was 5-0 against him. I see a matchup issue when players actually win the match like what Tsonga was doing to Djokovic early on when he went up 5-2 in the head to head or when Davydenko won 4 straight matches against peak Nadal.
 

Hitman

Professional
2005 AO Safin and 2019 USO Medvedev grouped together, WeakDrool's propaganda working its sinister charms huh.
Another example we can use. Federer's LEVEL OF PLAY overcoming the match up problem with Nadal at the WTF 2006 and 2007. The match up still existed, but Federer's level was able to overcome it. In today's Fedal rivalry, the match up is the other way, because Federer plays fundamentally different against Nadal than he did in the past, so it is Nadal who has to overcome that playing style, because his game allows Federer to play his.
 
I just don't see a matchup issue if someone has never beaten a player though although I will say maybe I should have taken into consideration how close their matches were—but Nadal was 5-0 against him. I see a matchup issue when players actually win the match like what Tsonga was doing to Djokovic early on when he went up 5-2 in the head to head or when Davydenko won 4 straight matches against peak Nadal.
That's going a bit too far. Nadal wasn't anywhere near his peak level in the second half of 2009. In Doha 2010 Nadal was close to his best level though, maybe that was his best level in a match which he lost.
 

Hitman

Professional
That's going a bit too far. Nadal wasn't anywhere near his peak level in the second half of 2009. In Doha 2010 Nadal was close to his best level though, maybe that was his best level in a match which he lost.
It was Miami 2008 IMO, Nadal coming in solid into the final, and played right into Davydenko's hands. This is during the peak Nadal run.
 

Sabrina

Semi-Pro
Nadal was playing very well in the Doha 2010 Final, I would say that loss ruins his momentum until the clay season in 2010.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
That's going a bit too far. Nadal wasn't anywhere near his peak level in the second half of 2009. In Doha 2010 Nadal was close to his best level though, maybe that was his best level in a match which he lost.
Well peak/prime it doesn't really matter. Nadal was losing to Davydenko, Del Potro, Djokovic, Soderling, and Cilic in the 2nd half of 2009 and level of the field was very high. In any case, Davydenko was beating 23-25 year old Nadal.
 

Hitman

Professional
I didn't see this final, but I see Davydenko won it 6-4 6-2. Did Nadal play better than in Doha 2010?
Yes, IMO he did. He had a very good run, even beating Blake, a guy who had tormented him in the past. I thought he was winning it that year, didn't expect to see what happened at all to be fair.
 

Hitman

Professional
Nadal was playing very well in the Doha 2010 Final, I would say that loss ruins his momentum until the clay season in 2010.
I wouldn't really say so. He was in good positions to win both IW and Miami, it is just that Lubijcic was having the tournament of his life in IW, and Roddick changed his game plan against Nadal in Miami and started taking huge cuts at the ball playing high risk tennis. Nadal was doing a lot better than many of the other guys during that period, Del Potro gone, Davydenko gone, Federer's form taking a nose dive, Djokovic AWOL.
 
I wouldn't really say so. He was in good positions to win both IW and Miami, it is just that Lubijcic was having the tournament of his life in IW, and Roddick changed his game plan against Nadal in Miami and started taking huge cuts at the ball playing high risk tennis. Nadal was doing a lot better than many of the other guys during that period, Del Potro gone, Davydenko gone, Federer's form taking a nose dive, Djokovic AWOL.
These losses were hard to take, given that Nadal hasn't won any tournaments in 11 months. Good that after that he played one of his best tournament in MC 2010 and didn't let anybody even come close to taking it from him. IMO it was a very important win for him, just like MC 2012 and especially MC 2017. Many comebacks began in Monte Carlo.
 

Hitman

Professional
These losses were hard to take, given that Nadal hasn't won any tournaments in 11 months. Good that after that he played one of his best tournament in MC 2010 and didn't let anybody even come close to taking it from him. IMO it was a very important win for him, just like MC 2012 and especially MC 2017. Many comebacks began in Monte Carlo.
Well Monte Carlo isn't called Rafa's fun house for nothing. He has won it, what, 12 times....
 
Well Monte Carlo isn't called Rafa's fun house for nothing. He has won it, what, 12 times....
11 times. Would have been 12 if he didn't suddenly play the worst clay tennis in his career this year. IMO that was the most stupid way in which any member of the big 3 ever missed a title.
 

Hitman

Professional
11 times. Would have been 12 if he didn't suddenly play the worst clay tennis in his career this year. IMO that was the most stupid way in which any member of the big 3 ever missed a title.
He's won it so many times, I lost count. LOL
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
It was Miami 2008 IMO, Nadal coming in solid into the final, and played right into Davydenko's hands. This is during the peak Nadal run.
I saw that match and I was shocked like the commentators. Damn Davedenko played amazing that day.
 

Hitman

Professional
I saw that match and I was shocked like the commentators. Damn Davedenko played amazing that day.
That was playstation Davydenko, he simply wasn't missing, taking the ball early and redirecting like a boss. Nadal was on a string that match. I seriously didn't expect it to be that way, considering Nadal had beaten Davydenko on hard a few months earlier. That match up issue was clear and obvious to everyone at that point.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
That was playstation Davydenko, he simply wasn't missing, taking the ball early and redirecting like a boss. Nadal was on a string that match. I seriously didn't expect it to be that way, considering Nadal had beaten Davydenko on hard a few months earlier. That match up issue was clear and obvious to everyone at that point.
Davydenko barely lost to him too in that 2006 WTF match. It was clear after Miami 2008 that he was going to be a nightmare for Nadal on hardcourt and he was. I don't think he ever beat Davydenko on hardcourt again.
 

Hitman

Professional
Davydenko barely lost to him too in that 2006 WTF match. It was clear after Miami 2008 that he was going to be a nightmare for Nadal on hardcourt and he was. I don't think he ever beat Davydenko on hardcourt again.
You are right, he never beat him on hard court since that first win, it was 1-6 in their H2H on hard.
 

The_Mental_Giant

Hall of Fame
Don't think so, Davydenko was a mighty ballstriker and could punish Nadal's declined movement.
False , Nadal more agressive approach woukd hurt davydenko, Nadal used to play too behind baseline and gave Davydenko free Room to attack.. Nadal is barely losing to anybody not named Federer or Djokovic outside of clay, and I think Nadal is slowly finding the right balance to contrarest Djokovic game outside of clay, his only problem will be Federer variety, but he will not probably ever meet him often outside of a possible new wimbledon crash..

The Nadal davydenko beat was the same Nadak suceptible to straight set loses to The likes of Gonzalez, Tsonga or Delpo, Davydenko was lucky he played most of his matches vs Nadal in a very short time frame, Nadal surely would have figured him out.. like he figured out gonzalez and delpo ans beat them almost always after thr innitial loses... You are undeestimating Nadal..
 
Is Medvedev a better player than Davydenko do you think?
Not in a vacuum. Davydenko was clearly better at hitting the ball aggressively. Medvedev has a strangely defensive style and is surprisingly good at it for his height, but not much better than Denko - height doesn't help here. Where it helps is of course the serve, Medvedev's is much stronger. Nadal is good at defusing serves though and Medvedev lacks the consistent aggression to pummel. He likels achieves more than Davydenko as the Big 3 continue to decline, whether he can play better than Kolya did is another question.
 
False , Nadal more agressive approach woukd hurt davydenko, Nadal used to play too behind baseline and gave Davydenko free Room to attack.. Nadal is barely losing to anybody not named Federer or Djokovic outside of clay, and I think Nadal is slowly finding the right balance to contrarest Djokovic game outside of clay, his only problem will be Federer variety, but he will not probably ever meet him often outside of a possible new wimbledon crash..
Please, Nadal struggled greatly against Medvedev in their last two matches and you think he'd have easily dispatched prime Davydenko, ha.
 
@Hitman How do you think the big 3 players match up against Thiem? That's a tough one. IMO Federer's game should trouble him most, but the head to head really says otherwise.
 

The_Mental_Giant

Hall of Fame
Is Medvedev a better player than Davydenko do you think?
He is without a doubt... Its the same clowns without arguments who repeat this.. imagine fernando.gonzalez never met nadal again after his victory in AO 2007.. and he would have shortly retired after that... Would everybody give the benefit of the chance to.Nadal? No, everybody would claim Gonzalez would be a bad matchup for nadal.in the following possible matches if they had played them.. but no.. Nadal turned the rivalry and won all the following 5-6 matches in faact I think Nadal almost didnt drop a set against him. He would have figured out davydenko.. I am convince , specially 2017+ gamestyle make him more effective against everybody except against Federer..This Nadal would have completely dominated Davydenko.
 

Hitman

Professional
@Hitman How do you think the big 3 players match up against Thiem? That's a tough one. IMO Federer's game should trouble him most, but the head to head really says otherwise.
If we look specifically at the match up difficulty then Federer, then Nadal, then Djokovic.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
He is without a doubt... Its the same clowns without arguments who repeat this.. imagine fernando.gonzalez never met nadal again after his victory in AO 2007.. and he would have shortly retired after that... Would everybody give the benefit of the chance to.Nadal? No, everybody would claim Gonzalez would be a bad matchup for nadal.in the following possible matches if they had played them.. but no.. Nadal turned the rivalry and won all the following 5-6 matches in faact I think Nadal almost didnt drop a set against him. He would have figured out davydenko.. I am convince , specially 2017+ gamestyle make him more effective against everybody except against Federer..This Nadal would have completely dominated Davydenko.
I have no question in my mind that Rafa would have figured out Davydenko. They are clinging to straws, so long time ago. I guess it’s good to have some silver linings. It will only get more of this kind of logic the more he wins.
 
In terms of matchups, I'm also curious as to what about Djoker's game would make things easier for Medvedev as opposed to Nadal.
Djoker doesn't like low pace game, no pace means he'll get frustrated and spray errors. He doesn't possess extreme firepower of nadal to feed pace into the rally time and again. His angles from BH aren't as deadly as nadal's FH angles are. Djokovic can't afford to rip the cover off the ball 4-5 times in a rally. His intensity against nextgen isn't as ferocious as it's again fedal. Djokovic lacks a killer shot.
 
@Hitman How do you think the big 3 players match up against Thiem? That's a tough one. IMO Federer's game should trouble him most, but the head to head really says otherwise.
Because of federer' age, and more so due to his stubbornness & lack of clutch.
He outplays thiem with variety and all court aggression in the initial stages, and then thinks he's the 24 yo version of himself who'll outbash the biggest basher on tour from baseline... And then he loses:unsure::cautious:
 

Raphael Nadal

Hall of Fame
^ "Can" doesn't mean "will" :)
And Djokovic was always a greater retriever and returner than Murray.
But most of all Djokovic simply believes in himself more than Murray ever did.
If Murray had Djokovic's self-belief, that would have allowed Murray to win the big points in some of those close sets in slam finals.
 
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