Medvedev- Facing Djokovic is easier than Nadal

The_Mental_Giant

Hall of Fame
In a matter of 6 months, he went from losing in 5 sets to winning just 8 games in a match, I'm not sure if I'll call that a new balance
You are judging him just based for a match.. we know how horribly rafa ended the season 2018.. having to retire at US open and then no playing until Australia.. this Nadal now ended up winning matches at WTF, David cup for Spain and continuously rising his level..
 

ADuck

Hall of Fame
Med brings a bit of the same problem as Kyrgios does to Djokovic, servebot - junkball combination. They serve well enough to bother his return and don’t give a lot of rhythm and pace in rallies.
I think we will see a more aggressive Djokovic in 2020. He was playing Med the right way in Cincy but then.. ya know. What happened happened no?
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
He still beats Federer like a read headed step child on clay. Djokovic as well.

Like I said, Nadal is a matchup problem for EVERYONE. The level of denial here is ridiculous. If you ask the majority of the players on tour who is the hardest to play, Nadal will be the most common answer. Maybe if your favorite player is Djokovic or Federer or whatever that feels like an insult, but such is life.
On clay, clearly so.

On HC and grass, clearly no(t).

Such is life.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
He is without a doubt... Its the same clowns without arguments who repeat this.. imagine fernando.gonzalez never met nadal again after his victory in AO 2007.. and he would have shortly retired after that... Would everybody give the benefit of the chance to.Nadal? No, everybody would claim Gonzalez would be a bad matchup for nadal.in the following possible matches if they had played them.. but no.. Nadal turned the rivalry and won all the following 5-6 matches in faact I think Nadal almost didnt drop a set against him. He would have figured out davydenko.. I am convince , specially 2017+ gamestyle make him more effective against everybody except against Federer..This Nadal would have completely dominated Davydenko.

1-6 against Davy on HC lul, not like it's 0-1 or 1-2 or something...3 of those wins were in peak/prime years for Nadal...for Nadal's lone win on HC his Dominance Ratio was like 0.85...even on clay he gave Peak Nadal a very tough match. In any event I doubt most people believe Davy would win <50% of their matches on HC peak-to-peak, but he sure did appear to challenge him more than their gap in abilities suggested he would. Hence, he's a match-up issue.

Rly not sure what's so perplexing about Nadal losing on HC's to top 10 players. Believe he has a sub-.500 record against them. He's not like Fed or Djokovic on HC (as close to upset-proof on HC as you can get) just like they aren't Nadal on clay.
 
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Enceladus

Hall of Fame
If you have to go all the way back in time to name Davydenko, then your point loses impact. Rafa was nowhere near the complete player he became when Davy used to give him trouble. And Fognini got most of his wins over Rafa when Rafa was going through a career crisis and everyone was beating him.
What are you talking about? :mad: Davydenko achieved most wins over Nadal in a period 2009 - the beginning of 2011, when Nadal already had title on AO and in Wimbledon. After 2010 he neither AO nor Wimbledon won. Nadal out of clay has never been more successful than at the turn of the decades of 2000s and 2010s, and then time Davydenko defeated him several times.
And as @Hitman noted, you confuse the meaning of LEVEL OF PLAY with MATCHUP.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He is without a doubt... Its the same clowns without arguments who repeat this.. imagine fernando.gonzalez never met nadal again after his victory in AO 2007.. and he would have shortly retired after that... Would everybody give the benefit of the chance to.Nadal? No, everybody would claim Gonzalez would be a bad matchup for nadal.in the following possible matches if they had played them.. but no.. Nadal turned the rivalry and won all the following 5-6 matches in faact I think Nadal almost didnt drop a set against him. He would have figured out davydenko.. I am convince , specially 2017+ gamestyle make him more effective against everybody except against Federer..This Nadal would have completely dominated Davydenko.
Lol, Davydenko's wins all happened starting with 2008.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
What are you talking about? :mad: Davydenko achieved most wins over Nadal in a period 2009 - the beginning of 2011, when Nadal already had title on AO and in Wimbledon. After 2010 he neither AO nor Wimbledon won. Nadal out of clay has never been more successful than at the turn of the decades of 2000s and 2010s, and then time Davydenko defeated him several times.
And as @Hitman noted, you confuse the meaning of LEVEL OF PLAY with MATCHUP.
Nonsense. Davydenko never beat Nadal on a Grass Court, so it's irrelevant if he beat Nadal during his Grass Peak. Davy only gave Nadal trouble on hardcourts. You are trying to confuse things with this "out of clay" stuff. Nadal has always been a good hardcourt player, but his hardcourt peak has come in the last two years (two US Opens wins, finally defending a hardcourt title at Rogers Cup, decimating opponents on an indoor hardcourt to win Davis Cup single handed for Spain). Nadal was statistically the best hardcourt player of 2019. Better than he was on clay.

It's inarguable that Nadal is now a better hardcourt player than at any other stage of his career. He used to be much easier to upset on hardcourt, or to get hit through by a player with powerful groundstrokes.

Again, anyone with a brain knows Nadal peaked on different surfaces at different periods of his career. Davydenko got all his 3 set hardcourt wins against Nadal when he was still a good hardcourt player, but nowhere near as dominant and consistant as he is now.
 

Enceladus

Hall of Fame
Nonsense. Davydenko never beat Nadal on a Grass Court, so it's irrelevant if he beat Nadal during his Grass Peak. Davy only gave Nadal trouble on hardcourts. You are trying to confuse things with this "out of clay" stuff. Nadal has always been a good hardcourt player, but his hardcourt peak has come in the last two years (two US Opens wins, finally defending a hardcourt title at Rogers Cup, decimating opponents on an indoor hardcourt to win Davis Cup single handed for Spain). Nadal was statistically the best hardcourt player of 2019. Better than he was on clay.

It's inarguable that Nadal is now a better hardcourt player than at any other stage of his career. He used to be much easier to upset on hardcourt, or to get hit through by a player with powerful groundstrokes.

Again, anyone with a brain knows Nadal peaked on different surfaces at different periods of his career. Davydenko got all his 3 set hardcourt wins against Nadal when he was still a good hardcourt player, but nowhere near as dominant and consistant as he is now.
Your commentary is a full of nonsense and demagogy.
You argued that Davydenko didn't defeat Nadal when Nadal was a complete player, and that is nonsense because Davydenko achieved most of the wins at a time when Nadal was already the winner of AO and Wimbledon. Davydenko reached his last win over Nadal after Nadal's most successful season in career, 2010. If you still claim that Nadal was not a complete player in this time, then you are a jester for me.
Another dubious claim is that this year was best for Nadal in the career at HC. Did you forget 2013 season when Nadal won the US Open, Indian Wells, Rogers Cup, Cincinnati and was in the WTF final? That was Nadal's HC peak. As for HC this year, it was a great year for Nadal, but the same is true for 2009, 2010 and 2017.
What you didn't add to this year's Nadal balance for HC is that Nadal stepped back several times without a fight, which improves the balance. Not surprisingly, Nadal's balance at HC in 2019 season is better than on the clay, when he completed all the matches at clay, which he was supposed to play.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Your commentary is a full of nonsense and demagogy.
You argued that Davydenko didn't defeat Nadal when Nadal was a complete player, and that is nonsense because Davydenko achieved most of the wins at a time when Nadal was already the winner of AO and Wimbledon. Davydenko reached his last win over Nadal after Nadal's most successful season in career, 2010. If you still claim that Nadal was not a complete player in this time, then you are a jester for me.
Another dubious claim is that this year was best for Nadal in the career at HC. Did you forget 2013 season when Nadal won the US Open, Indian Wells, Rogers Cup, Cincinnati and was in the WTF final? That was Nadal's HC peak. As for HC this year, it was a great year for Nadal, but the same is true for 2009, 2010 and 2017.
What you didn't add to this year's Nadal balance for HC is that Nadal stepped back several times without a fight, which improves the balance. Not surprisingly, Nadal's balance at HC in 2019 season is better than on the clay, when he completed all the matches at clay, which he was supposed to play.
Nadal is unarguably a better player now on HC. LOL - The guy has been straight setted in his last four matches against Fedovic on hard and he is unarguably a better player now than when he was actually beating them in slam finals and other events on hard? LOL. :D
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Nadal is unarguably a better player now on HC. LOL - The guy has been straight setted in his last four matches against Fedovic on hard and he is unarguably a better player now than when he was actually beating them in slam finals and other events on hard? LOL. :D

Federer and Djokovic are the two greatest hardcourt players of all time who have had 15 years to work out Nadal's pattern of play on their preferred surface.

Nadal was beating them on hardcourts when he wasn't as good a hardcourt player as he is now, because he is a nightmare for everyone to figure out. Nadal was prone to huge upsets from lesser players when he used to beat Fedovic on hard. Not so any longer. Nadal used to beat Federer on hardcourts at Masters level as a teen, when he was clearly nowhere as good a hardcourt player as he is now. Figure that out.

This is not Rocket Science genius. Nadal is clearly a better hardcourt player now than at any point in his career. He decimates the field, and only really loses consistently on the surface to the two greatest hardcourt players of all time, who both took far longer than they should have to figure him out on the surface.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Federer and Djokovic are the two greatest hardcourt players of all time who have had 15 years to work out Nadal's pattern of play on their preferred surface.

Nadal was beating them on hardcourts when he wasn't as good a hardcourt player as he is now, because he is a nightmare for everyone to figure out.
Nadal was prone to huge upsets from lesser players when he used to beat Fedovic on hard. Not so any longer. Nadal used to beat Federer on hardcourts at Masters level as a teen, when he was clearly nowhere as good a hardcourt player as he is now. Figure that out.

This is not Rocket Science genius. Nadal is clearly a better hardcourt player now than at any point in his career. He decimates the field, and only really loses consistently on the surface to the two greatest hardcourt players of all time, who both took far longer than they should have to figure him out on the surface.
But Davydenko had him figured out, and Nadal is not as fast as he used to be, and cannot take the ball as earlier as Davydenko. Davydenko hurts Nadal because he robs him of time, the moment Davydenko starts to do that, Nadal will be forced to step back, his lateral movement will then be exposed and the court will be opened up. Nadal may understand the game better now, but he is athletically inferior to his younger counterpart, a big reason why Federer now bullies him on hard court. And Nadal's patterns of play haven't drastically changed over the years, it is his court positioning, that however has no impact on Davydenko who can play ping pong with the best of them.
 

Toronto11

New User
Let’s hope Novak and Daniil line up against each other in the AO semis. if I was a betting man I would give a slight edge to Djokovic buts it’s close.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Read my post below. If you need to go back in ancient history before Nadal was a complete player to single out Davydenko, you don"t have much of point. It's like pointing out that Tim Henman used to regularly beat Federer, before he became the complete version of Federer.
The period between 2006-2012 is when Nadal has a losing record against Davy, but a positive H2H against Federer. Does that say Davy is a better player than Federer? If not, then it IS a match up issue. Federer is 19-2 against Davy BTW.

Whether if it's true or not that Nadal wasn't a complete player between 2006-2012, he should have a much better success against Davy than Federer, because Federer is >>> Davy, no?

Match up problems is normal for all players.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
The period between 2006-2012 is when Nadal has a losing record against Davy, but a positive H2H against Federer. Does that say Davy is a better player than Federer? If not, then it IS a match up issue. Federer is 19-2 against Davy BTW.

Whether if it's true or not that Nadal wasn't a complete player between 2006-2012, he should have a much better success against Davy than Federer, because Federer is >>> Davy, no?

Match up problems is normal for all players.
The H2H is 6-5 to Davydenko, a dangerous and more experienced player from a previous generation who got old and retired before Nadal hit his peak on the surface where Davy troubled him. Hardly a horrible H2H overall. Pretty much even. Like I said, this is exactly equivalent to Henman and Federer. No Nadal fans are stupid or petty enough to claim Federer had a "match-up" issue with Henman. Just that Henman was beating the incomplete version of Federer. Henman was still beating Federer when Federer was beating Agassi (a far greater player on all surfaces)....what does that mean? Nothing. Federer barely has a winning record against Henman, and nobody acts like he was Federer's achilles heel. It just took him a while to figure Henman out. Yet Fed fans milk a 1 match advantadge from Prime Davy over inconsistent hardcourter Nadal like it's some kind of epiphany.

Sometimes, even the greats require time to figure out opponents, especially when they are not at their peaks. I'm 100% confident that had Davy stuck around, Nadal would lead the H2H something like 16-6 and nobody would even bring the guy up. Nadal was an incomplete player, and their "rivalry" did not extend into Nadal's hardcourt peak. We can basically learn nothing from their H2H.
 
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Lew II

Hall of Fame
It really wasn't a one sided beatdown for you to bump this thread. It was a very close match. Novak just about puffed and panted past the finish line. What Med said is still true. Med matches up way better against Nole than against Nadal
Nole won, go in peace :p
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
It really wasn't a one sided beatdown for you to bump this thread. It was a very close match. Novak just about puffed and panted past the finish line. What Med said is still true. Med matches up way better against Nole than against Nadal
His last 2 matches against Nadal went to the absolute brink though. His rivalry with Nadal is tougher mainly because he turned into a choke artist in their last one. Never seen him do that against Djokovic. But based on the recent matches, he seems to match up well against both of them.
 

Krish0608

Hall of Fame
His last 2 matches against Nadal went to the absolute brink though. His rivalry with Nadal is tougher mainly because he turned into a choke artist in their last one. Never seen him do that against Djokovic. But based on the recent matches, he seems to match up well against both of them.
The difference being, Medvedev has to play unnaturally aggressive to trouble Rafa. That's not his natural game and he can't sustain that style for long. However Medvedev's natural counterpunching off-pace game is enough to trouble Novak.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
The difference being, Medvedev has to play unnaturally aggressive to trouble Rafa. That's not his natural game and he can't sustain that style for long. However Medvedev's natural counterpunching off-pace game is enough to trouble Novak.
Medvedev said who he thinks worse to play, but I guess Novak fans just can’t accept Medvedevs opinion :p It’s not like Medvedev is actually playing Djokodal and the best one to have an opinion about it :rolleyes:
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
The difference being, Medvedev has to play unnaturally aggressive to trouble Rafa. That's not his natural game and he can't sustain that style for long. However Medvedev's natural counterpunching off-pace game is enough to trouble Novak.
I don't know about this since I think Medvedev became more aggressive last summer and he flat out beat Djokovic with that style in Cincy. He also seemed to be able to sustain that style the last two times he played Nadal but couldn't cross the finish line, and he without a doubt should have beaten Nadal at the WTF. His counterpunching style that he played in AO was enough to win a set from Djokovic but he lost comfortably in 4 sets, not lost 6-4 in the 5th like he did against Nadal.
 

Incognito

Legend
Nadal has had different peaks on different surfaces. Everyone knows that. Davydenko never faced the best, most consistent version of Nadal on a hardcourt, which is arguably in the last 2 years.

And Davy never beat Nadal in a slam as well.
lol people bring up davydenko all the time. At least Rafa has beaten him once hc. Davydenko could never in any shape or form beat Nadal on clay.
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
fred says he doesn't like having a losing record to either of them..... so they are both tough for him. lol
 

thrust

Hall of Fame
He still beats Federer like a read headed step child on clay. Djokovic as well.

Like I said, Nadal is a matchup problem for EVERYONE. The level of denial here is ridiculous. If you ask the majority of the players on tour who is the hardest to play, Nadal will be the most common answer. Maybe if your favorite player is Djokovic or Federer or whatever that feels like an insult, but such is life.
No doubt Nadal is a match up problem for everyone, but as Novak has the H-H advantage over Nadal, I would think that Novak is a match up problem for Nadal as well
 
I don't know about this since I think Medvedev became more aggressive last summer and he flat out beat Djokovic with that style in Cincy. He also seemed to be able to sustain that style the last two times he played Nadal but couldn't cross the finish line, and he without a doubt should have beaten Nadal at the WTF. His counterpunching style that he played in AO was enough to win a set from Djokovic but he lost comfortably in 4 sets, not lost 6-4 in the 5th like he did against Nadal.
He beat Djokovic in Monte Carlo with counterpunching though.
 
Djokovic's form in IW, Miami and MC was terrible though and he also lost to Kohlshreiber and Agut.
Djokovic wasn't at his best in their MC match, but he wasn't terrible. They were playing 30+ shot rallies during 2 hours, just like in their AO match. Terrible is what Nadal was in MC semifinal, when he was missing like every third shot.
 
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