Melesian Science Labs New Hard Court and Clay Court Rankings

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
This isn't a Novak pity party and you fail with the facts again to make your case.

If peak Stamina for Athlete is Thiem's age then why did Nole fail and fail and fail in his early years in slams? :unsure: The reality:
"It is well accepted that peak performance as an endurance athlete seems to occur somewhere between 25 to 35 years of age1 – a theory easily demonstrated with results from any major competition"

Been drinking fraudulent kool-aid?

It's not about peak stamina though in relation to recovery time between matches. You were saying Thiem was tired and that's why he lost when he is playing someone older and close to 30, with both playing multiple days in a row. That sounds more fraudulent. Fedal were multi Slam winners at 22 and Djokovic at 23 btw.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
It's not about peak stamina though in relation to recovery time between matches. You were saying Thiem was tired and that's why he lost when he is playing someone older and close to 30, with both playing multiple days in a row. That sounds more fraudulent. Fedal were multi Slam winners at 22 and Djokovic at 23 btw.
Djoko turned 24 in 2011, Fed 23 in 2004. Thiem 22 at 2016 RG, turned 23 in September so 23 by the same measure, but a young one.

You're saying peak stamina has nothing to do with it and now you want to bring up recovery time? AGAIN, why wasn't Djokovic cleaning up in slams in 2009 and 2010? Answer, not anywhere near peak stamina etc. I also seem to recall him being on fumes at the end of 2011 after his exploits. Please explain your own player's lack of stamina and recovery? (greatly lesserer stats)
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Djoko turned 24 in 2011, Fed 23 in 2004. Thiem 22 at 2016 RG, turned 23 in September so 23 by the same measure, but a young one.

You're saying peak stamina has nothing to do with it and now you want to bring up recovery time? AGAIN, why wasn't Djokovic cleaning up in slams in 2009 and 2010? Answer, not anywhere near peak stamina etc. I also seem to recall him being on fumes at the end of 2011 after his exploits. Please explain your own player's lack of stamina and recovery? (greatly lesserer stats)

Fed was 22 when he won AO and Wimbledon in 2004 though and the same age as Thiem was. Not everyone is the same but most great players, since the Sampras era, enter their peak at least around 22 or 23: Sampras, Federer, Nadal, etc.

Recovery time and peak stamina are two different things but if we're being technical, around 23 you should be entering your peak. Djokovic was 23 and a half when he started dominating and dominated for a pure solid 8 months winning 3 Slams and 5 Masters, which was 66 wins and only 2 losses, including the 43 win streak . Surely you understand why he was on fumes at the end of that. That's an entirely different subject though.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Fed was 22 when he won AO and Wimbledon in 2004 though and the same age as Thiem was. Not everyone is the same but most great players, since the Sampras era, enter their peak at least around 22 or 23: Sampras, Federer, Nadal, etc.

Recovery time and peak stamina are two different things but if we're being technical, around 23 you should be entering your peak. Djokovic was 23 and a half when he started dominating and dominated for a pure solid 8 months winning 3 Slams and 5 Masters, which was 66 wins and only 2 losses, including the 43 win streak . Surely you understand why he was on fumes at the end of that. That's an entirely different subject though.
More false data. Peak speed is perhaps at 23-24 by most measures which might correspond with a movement and returning peak. Djokovic 2011 certainly showed it on return at age 24 for the year. He was not even close in 2010 at age 23. Some might say Federer movement peak was in 2004 at age 23. I watch Thiem heavily and I'd say he peaked in movement this year at IW and Barcelona where he beat Federer and Nadal rather impressively. Age 25.5 which was not expected. I figure 2018 was going to be his best (and perhaps the match with Nadal might have been movement peak as well right at 25 years old on the nose. Murray did not win slam until 25, but he did put up impressive stats earlier late 2008 well into 2009 (better than Djokovic on hard courts by a good margin at that point.) So a case for 22, but Murray's career clouded by withdrawals and injuries that also had started by 2009.

But that is just speed peak so it is utter nonsense to call that peak in the modern game. Strength, Stamina, and serve game all continue to improve for a long time and serve is what wins slams. So peak at 22-23 is nonsense. Now back before Poly string era speed was the dominant attribute most of the time and then peak at 23 not a crazy thing to say. But even Borg and McEnroe peaked later in those eras. McEnroe at an old 25, born February 1959. Borg 1980 at 24. So even by old standards trolling out peak at age 22 or 23 is utter nonsense. Of course we have Muster peaking at age 28 on clay.

Peak overall game for Djokovic was 2015-2016. Murray late 2016. Age 29. Nadal is an oddity with his injuries, but prime hard court numbers did not happen until age 24 in 2010. Then maybe peak in 2013 at age 27 before his serving woes (which were quite bizarre) brought his game in a trough and appear to be related to serve arm injury that sidelined him at end of 2016. Djokovic as you know also didn't go under knife for 18 months with elbow and his game went downhill. Murray also burnt out quickly on the heels of Djokovic with injuries. So we can't even say for sure that peak is 29. Agassi with Poly helping having a very late run in his career might have had a later peak just before this if he'd been using Poly earlier.

So once again pretty ridiculous maintaining Thiem was at his clay peak or even prime in 2016 while still age 22 (turn 23 September).:sneaky:

I would say Thiem's prime started in 2017 and 2018 peak might have happened on clay if not for the ankle injury. I'd say peak period started this year with foreshadowing at 2018 US Open. Not sure when it will end but he's got three big hard court tournaments under his belt this year on a surface that previously has been Kryptonite post Wimbledon. I expect Thiem to maintain his return for the most part over the next five years while increasing his serve game on and off clay. I'd written off slams outside of RG, but with his late speed peak this year raising his return game enough for the rest of his prime he could sneak a hard court slam in a weak year (as in he would not have won one with the Big 4 on the prowl). Thiem's greatests heights on clay are yet to come and then we can take stock of prime/peak Thiem.

Also your use of the term recovery time is a new one to me. I'm not seeing that much accept in discussion of injury. More TTW fraudulence you've ingested?;)
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
More false data. Peak speed is perhaps at 23-24 by most measures which might correspond with a movement and returning peak. Djokovic 2011 certainly showed it on return at age 24 for the year. He was not even close in 2010 at age 23. Some might say Federer movement peak was in 2004 at age 23. I watch Thiem heavily and I'd say he peaked in movement this year at IW and Barcelona where he beat Federer and Nadal rather impressively. Age 25.5 which was not expected. I figure 2018 was going to be his best (and perhaps the match with Nadal might have been movement peak as well right at 25 years old on the nose. Murray did not win slam until 25, but he did put up impressive stats earlier late 2008 well into 2009 (better than Djokovic on hard courts by a good margin at that point.) So a case for 22, but Murray's career clouded by withdrawals and injuries that also had started by 2009.

But that is just speed peak so it is utter nonsense to call that peak in the modern game. Strength, Stamina, and serve game all continue to improve for a long time and serve is what wins slams. So peak at 22-23 is nonsense. Now back before Poly string era speed was the dominant attribute most of the time and then peak at 23 not a crazy thing to say. But even Borg and McEnroe peaked later in those eras. McEnroe at an old 25, born February 1959. Borg 1980 at 24. So even by old standards trolling out peak at age 22 or 23 is utter nonsense. Of course we have Muster peaking at age 28 on clay.

Peak overall game for Djokovic was 2015-2016. Murray late 2016. Age 29. Nadal is an oddity with his injuries, but prime hard court numbers did not happen until age 24 in 2010. Then maybe peak in 2013 at age 27 before his serving woes (which were quite bizarre) brought his game in a trough and appear to be related to serve arm injury that sidelined him at end of 2016. Djokovic as you know also didn't go under knife for 18 months with elbow and his game went downhill. Murray also burnt out quickly on the heels of Djokovic with injuries. So we can't even say for sure that peak is 29. Agassi with Poly helping having a very late run in his career might have had a later peak just before this if he'd been using Poly earlier.

So once again pretty ridiculous maintaining Thiem was at his clay peak or even prime in 2016 while still age 22 (turn 23 September).:sneaky:

I would say Thiem's prime started in 2017 and 2018 peak might have happened on clay if not for the ankle injury. I'd say peak period started this year with foreshadowing at 2018 US Open. Not sure when it will end but he's got three big hard court tournaments under his belt this year on a surface that previously has been Kryptonite post Wimbledon. I expect Thiem to maintain his return for the most part over the next five years while increasing his serve game on and off clay. I'd written off slams outside of RG, but with his late speed peak this year raising his return game enough for the rest of his prime he could sneak a hard court slam in a weak year (as in he would not have won one with the Big 4 on the prowl). Thiem's greatests heights on clay are yet to come and then we can take stock of prime/peak Thiem.

Also your use of the term recovery time is a new one to me. I'm not seeing that much accept in discussion of injury. More TTW fraudulence you've ingested?;)

I'm talking about the trend since the Sampras era. If you go back to McEnroe days then they peaked at 19 or 20 and were basically burned out by 25 or 26. Different times really. Murray was really strong at 23/24, made at least the SF of all 4 Slams in 2011, but the problem was he had 3 players who were stronger.

Sorry but Sampras (1993), Federer (2004), Nadal (2008) and Djokovic (2011) all first reached their peaks at ages 22-23. Djokovic was a late 23 but still he was 23 when he won AO, Dubai, IW, Miami, Madrid and Rome back to back. He was hanging with Nadal physically which was something he could not maintain at any time before that.

I don't know when Thiem's peak started since it's hard to compare a player like him to ATGs since they usually follow a pattern. Someone's peak and how you well you can recover in between matches is two different things though like I said before. As you get older, recovery time increases and I'm sure you have heard former pros talk about this when commentating.
 
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