Men and Women on the Same USTA Team?

[Moon Shooter]

I did look and I was surprised there wasn't much discussion on this topic. I am not sold on it myself but coming from an area that has very limited USTA options I am always wondering what USTA could do to possibly increase participation.

I think before this could even possibly work, USTA would need to combine the rating systems for men and women. And to do that they would likely need to look at data of matches recorded in UTR (or some other site) where the players have established NTRP ratings. They would need to look specifically at doubles teams of a single gender playing opponents of the other gender or playing opponents of a mix of both genders. They would also need to look at UTR for results of singles matches between men and women. This would help them get a handle on the disparate at different levels of play. If the disparate is that men are better at the same rating level then they should just give all men at that rating a boost in their dynamic rating to even things out. (it almost certainly won't be the same boost at all the different ratings) They can likely add a few levels as well. So a very high level 5.0 male may become a 6.0.

As has been mentioned in other threads Mixed doubles suffers because it becomes a game where men are trying to hit to the women to win and this is due to the fact that a mid 3.87 woman is not the same strength as a 3.87 male.

Then people would have more people to draw from in creating teams/leagues and/or they would have narrower levels allowing for better competition. Ideally it would be a bit of a combination of both. As already the levels are very broad leading to people at the bottoms of a level to be pretty much a sure loss with anyone at the upper end of the level. Ok the 6.0 men may end up without a team. But the 5.0 women might find there is a team for them.

Any thoughts?

 

[J011yroger]

I don't know what is wrong with you but I bet it's hard to spell.

J

 

[sureshs]

I prefer to play with women

 

[EddieBrock]

In grad school I played mixed doubles and also have played mixed doubles with friends and it's a lot of fun. Something about having 2 women on the court makes it a bit less serious and a different feeling than regular doubles.

I tried a USTA mixed doubles league and it was horrible.

As the op mentioned it was basically college level players playing with women who didn't know which end of the racket to hold and the women would stand off in the alley while the guys tried to kill each other. They were the most aggressive guys I've seen play.

When I play mixed doubles it's with women who played in college or are much higher rated than I or the other guy is and it's an even match. Pretty much any time you have an imbalance of levels I don't think it's fun. I've played with 3.5 guys as well as playing in pro ams and much prefer where everyone is the same if you care about results.

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Yeah, it's definitely possible. UTR does it. The main thing is that the rating systems would have to be calibrated so they're equivalent (i.e. so a man with a rating of XYZ is about the same level as a woman with a rating of XYZ). That means the lower levels would be mostly women, the upper levels mostly men, and in between a mix.

I'm not sure USTA has the interest to make big changes like that but it is certainly one that could work.

 

[schmke]

Yeah, it's definitely possible. UTR does it. The main thing is that the rating systems would have to be calibrated so they're equivalent (i.e. so a man with a rating of XYZ is about the same level as a woman with a rating of XYZ). That means the lower levels would be mostly women, the upper levels mostly men, and in between a mix.

I'm not sure USTA has the interest to make big changes like that but it is certainly one that could work.

For this to work, you need suitable play between men and women, and Mixed doubles may offer a reasonable number of matches, but the format doesn't really help an algorithm get the genders rated relative to each other. When a match is always one man/woman against another, whatever disparity there is between the gender's ratings is masked by having one on each side. For it to get calibrated for relative ratings to have any meaning, you need singles matches with men playing women, or doubles matches in any format other than man/woman vs man/woman, e.g. woman/woman vs man/man, woman/woman vs man/woman, etc.

This is the challenge UTR has and why some of their relative ratings between genders appear off, there simply isn't enough matches in these alternate formats for the algorithm to do its job. So I don't know that we can say the UTR algorithm as it relates to a gender neutral algorithm is good or bad as the lack of matches doesn't really give the algorithm any data to show how it can do.

 

[stapletonj]

Wasn't there a time when world team tennis tried to implement an amateur league system based on their match format?
I think a modified version of that could be worth a try.....
2 guys and 2 girls needed to field a team.... max team size 6 players? (allows for 2 specialists and/or 2 subs)

 

[schmke]

Wasn't there a time when world team tennis tried to implement an amateur league system based on their match format?
I think a modified version of that could be worth a try.....
2 guys and 2 girls needed to field a team.... max team size 6 players? (allows for 2 specialists and/or 2 subs)

I think it still exists in places. I recall a few weekend events in my area a few years ago that used the format.

And the USTA is using a similar format for their 18-39 leagues in some sections to try and appeal to the younger players.

 

[J_R_B]

Is this another really dumb idea you're going to reiterate 400 times as if the next time you say the same thing will convince everyone that you're right?

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

When I organized teams for a corporate WTT league in Minneapolis a number of years back, the format was: 1 set women's singles, 1 set men's singles, 1 set women's doubles, 1 set men's double, and 2 courts each playing 1 set of mixed doubles. So you still didn't have men vs women in singles that would allow you the data you need for comparable ratings between genders.

Locally here in Pittsburgh there is a singles league that is coed that works pretty well. There are something like 9 levels, and I think the top and bottom 2 people at each level move up or down a level respectively at the end of each summer.

If USTA had coed singles they could move to a ratings system that put everyone on the same scale. This would also allow for a doubles league which allows any combination of genders on either side of the court as long as they had the same combined rating. Could be helpful for areas with low participation, and for people like me who enjoy coed play as it adds variety and widens the pool of people to play.

 

[J_R_B]

When I organized teams for a corporate WTT league in Minneapolis a number of years back, the format was: 1 set women's singles, 1 set men's singles, 1 set women's doubles, 1 set men's double, and 2 courts each playing 1 set of mixed doubles. So you still didn't have men vs women in singles that would allow you the data you need for comparable ratings between genders.

Locally here in Pittsburgh there is a singles league that is coed that works pretty well. There are something like 9 levels, and I think the top and bottom 2 people at each level move up or down a level respectively at the end of each summer.

If USTA had coed singles they could move to a ratings system that put everyone on the same scale. This would also allow for a doubles league which allows any combination of genders on either side of the court as long as they had the same combined rating. Could be helpful for areas with low participation, and for people like me who enjoy coed play as it adds variety and widens the pool of people to play.

Having equal ratings is also the death knell for traditional mixed doubles unless mixed leagues are set up in a way that includes lower level women with higher level men. In other words, currently, there is probably a level and a half or so difference between mens and womens ratings (i.e. an average 3.5 man is the approximate equivalent of a high level 4.0 woman, etc.). If you leave something like 9.0 mixed in the same format, then you'll need 4.5 women to play with 4.5 men, but 4.5 women on a men's scale is 5.0-5.5 on the current womens scale, which are getting into the level of D1 athletes. You'll end up with dozens of 4.5 men available for every woman available. 6.0 would be on the other end of the imbalance since women would be concentrated on the low end of the range. The ratings currently are not balanced to normalize the playing levels, they are balanced so that the (approximate) distribution of players at each level is normalized (i.e. top 1% are 5.0 and up, top 10% are 4.5 and up, etc.). There's no reason to believe that normalizing the level of play is better than normalizing the distribution of players.

 

[sureshs]

Wasn't there a time when world team tennis tried to implement an amateur league system based on their match format?

Yes that was the only time I ever played a league match. I was like a sub and played 2 matches in total, I think. Never figured out the scoring system.

 

[TennisOTM]

I don't know that we can say the UTR algorithm as it relates to a gender neutral algorithm is good or bad as the lack of matches doesn't really give the algorithm any data to show how it can do.

I've wondered how UTR calibrates their highest-level women UTR numbers against the men. For example, right now the #1 UTR high school male (Michael Zheng) has the same exact UTR as Naomi Osaka (13.01). Is there much data to support something like that? Do professional women regularly play matches against, say, college varsity men? If they do have decent data from those kind of matches, then I suppose that's a good anchor point that can then filter down to the lower levels.

 

[TennisOTM]

Wasn't there a time when world team tennis tried to implement an amateur league system based on their match format?
I think a modified version of that could be worth a try.....
2 guys and 2 girls needed to field a team.... max team size 6 players? (allows for 2 specialists and/or 2 subs)

There are still a few dozen of these leagues around the county - they're all listed here: https://wttrec.com/

I'm playing in one of these right now, which is similar to a USTA league in that it's level-based (they use the NTRP levels) and weekly round-robin matches over a few months. It is mixed gender, but, as others said, there are no men vs. women matches except the mixed doubles sets, which are the traditional M/W vs. M/W.

 

[Moon Shooter]

My experience is similar but much less extreme to that of EddieBrock

I am not a very good tennis player and playing in USTA 6.5 most of my matches had a 3.0 male with a 3.5 female. So there was not such a disparate on the gender side and sometimes the female player was better. But I also saw some courts where it was a 4.0 male with a 2.5 female or a very high 3.5 male with 3.0 female (or even a lower 3.5 female with a 3.0 male that has really improved) and I could see that leading to people not having a great experience. The female player might think she is the reason they lost since she made the most errors and the male players thinking the way to win is to try to hit the ball very hard at the weaker player. And neither men and women typically want to play with players that are on average much weaker than they are.

But I have also been the male player paired up with much stronger female players who were the best on the court and of course then the way to win is to hit the ball at me. But there since I am the lower rated player I don't feel like I let my team down by making more errors since after all I am a considerably lower rated player. Still I have to admit it probably is not much fun for the stronger players whether they are male or female. So getting doubles matches where people are somewhat close in ability is important.

I agree with everyone that there is likely very limited data that we can use to accurately quantify the difference in men's and women's ntrp. But there could be enough to get a pretty decent idea. USTA could simply look at match results that meet the following criteria:

1) Only consider players that have an established NTRP
2) the matches are either singles matches of X versus Y, or doubles matches with XX versus YY or XX versus XY or YY versus XY. I don't think any of these matches would be USTA matches (Im not sure if USTA tournaments allow females to play males in singles) but I believe they could happen in UTR tournaments or leagues or just matches that are recorded in UTR or other rating services.

From that data they likely could get a fairly accurate idea of the disparate. Of course the disparate is likely not the same across levels. The disparate between men and women that are both rated 2.78 is likely not the same as the disparate between men and women rated 4.78. But they could plot out what the disparate is over the ratings and get a pretty decent idea. So maybe the disparate at 2.78 is .32 but the disparate at 4.78 is .68 (again I am just pulling numbers out of the air for demonstration purposes.) If they find that disparate follows a fairly linear trajectory they could make adjustments. At year end if a male is about 2.78 they would become 3.10 and if they are 4.78 they would be 5.46 and if they are 3.78 they would be 4.28. They may want to add a few categories to the top. Then after the year end boost to men's ratings they could start allowing more matches that fit the format of 2 above.

Is this another really dumb idea you're going to reiterate 400 times as if the next time you say the same thing will convince everyone that you're right?

Yes JRB it is a "really dumb idea" to think maybe men and women could play recreational tennis together.

 

[J_R_B]

Yes JRB it is a "really dumb idea" to think maybe men and women could play recreational tennis together.

They already do. It's called mixed doubles or WTT. Your ideas about modifications to the rating systems in place are what is dumb.

 

[Moon Shooter]

They already do. It's called mixed doubles or WTT. Your ideas about modifications to the rating systems in place are what is dumb.

Mixed doubles is just one way men and women can play recreational tennis together. I have not heard anyone suggest the rating disparity is good for mixed doubles or that the ratings disparity would not need to be addressed if USTA wanted to offer additional options for men and women to play recreational tennis together.

Why do you think it is "dumb" to try have a unified rating for men and women?

 

[TennisOTM]

UTR adult flex leagues are starting to get more popular in my area, and they include men and women in the same league. Seems to be more popular with men so far - a recent singles league had 17 men and 5 women, split into 4 groups based on UTR rating, with 3 of the women in the lowest group (beginner level) and the other 2 in the two highest level groups (UTR 4-5ish). Given their UTR ratings, the women seemed to perform about as well, or maybe a bit worse than expected against the men, though tough to conclude much with the small sample size.

If these kind of UTR leagues become very popular I suppose USTA might consider figuring out a way to compete. Worth noting that UTR simultaneously offered doubles flex leagues in the same any-gender style, and practically no one signed up. So the popularity of the UTR league might be more due to the singles playing opportunity (there are no singles-only USTA leagues here), rather than the gender format.

 

[stapletonj]

Is this another really dumb idea you're going to reiterate 400 times as if the next time you say the same thing will convince everyone that you're right?

you talking to me?

 

[Brian11785]

I think this is an interesting idea, but I imagine a vocal chunk of people in both sexes want to keep the leagues separate for social reasons.

 

[EddieBrock]

I think this is an interesting idea, but I imagine a vocal chunk of people in both sexes want to keep the leagues separate for social reasons.

Part of the reason I wanted to try a mixed doubles league was I thought it would be fun and more social and good way to meet single women who play tennis. Whenever I got a clinic it's like 99% guys. There are very few women who aren't instructors that can play at a 3.5 or above level for men.

Seems like all the women are complete beginners.

So it would be nice if there was a league where 4.0 men could play with 5.0 women or whatever the equivalent is.

 

[sureshs]

The WTN being introduced by the ITF is also gender agnostic, like the UTR. It is stupid to claim that men and women cannot play together. Even at the junior level, boys and girls hit together and play gender agnostic local leagues. No reason why old male farts cannot do the same.

 

[Purestriker]

Yes that was the only time I ever played a league match. I was like a sub and played 2 matches in total, I think. Never figured out the scoring system.

Still exists and it is based on overall total games.