Mental GOAT?

Mental GOAT?


  • Total voters
    110
Nah, the words you chose made it obvious you weren't only talking about Federer's mental strength, otherwise you would have just said soberly that he beat Djokovic after Wimbledon. "He spanked your boy" is you getting triggered by the 40-15 thing.
I actually said exactly the opposite, and the words were chosen to represent the utmost easiness with which that transpired: a sign of not having a thought about anything previous, so you fail at just about every step of your argument. Funny how your little intervention told me more than I needed to know.

:giggle:
 

Leandro2045

Rookie
I wonder how LOSING matches like AO 2012 or Wimbledon 2018 to Djokovic makes him mentally stronger than the player who WON these matches. Djokovic is clearly the mentally stronger player, and it is not even close.

Anyway, it's ridiculous if you truly believe that if you lose to Federer or Djokovic then it wasn't a choke.
Djokovic was once 6-7 in Grand Slams Finals (46%) there's no way he can be considered mentally stronger than Rafa if we are talking career wise.

From their teen to their thirties Rafa has been the more mentally stronger out of the two.
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
I actually said exactly the opposite, and the words were chosen to represent the utmost easiness with which that transpired: a sign of not having a thought about anything previous, so you fail at just about every step of your argument. Funny how your little intervention told me more than I needed to know.

:giggle:
Yeah, right, you chose those words only to highlight the easiness with which Federer won, as evidenced by the last part of your sentence that was totally necessary to reinforce your statement ("depriving him of the YE#1 in an year where there was a full season"). Keep digging yourself deeper.
 
Yeah, right, you chose those words only to highlight the easiness with which Federer won, as evidenced by the last part of your sentence that was totally necessary to reinforce your statement ("depriving him of the YE#1 in an year where there was a full season"). Keep digging yourself deeper.
I said it for that purpose and I even finished my post with the "Just. Like.That." sentence to accentuate the exact sentiment .....

... but you keep running into the wall. That will surely help you.

:giggle:
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
Djokovic under Pepe...

Seriously though...Djokovic with Becker
Wasn't Becker still his coach during the 2016 Wimb debacle ? The mental fatigue that followed RG badly hurt his case, I think. You would never have seen Federer or Nadal getting "gutted" because they win too much.
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
I said it for that purpose and I even finished my post with the "Just. Like.That." sentence to accentuate the exact sentiment .....

... but you keep running into the wall. That will surely help you.

:giggle:
Yeah, everyone fails and runs into a wall when debatting with you. We know the drill. I suggest you to replace all your posts in this thread with a dot, as you do every time you're sensible enough to realize you're as flawed as everyone. We're done now.
 
Yeah, everyone fails and runs into a wall when debatting with you. We know the drill. I suggest you to replace all your posts in this thread with a dot, as you do every time you're sensible enough to realize you're as flawed as everyone. We're done now.
I am afraid you understood as much from the dots period as you did when you intervened without having a clue here.

:cool:
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
is this legit?
Yup, found some older poast where i poasted the exact numbers

One telling stat in terms of how clutch these guys are on serve, is to look at the difference between their serve points won and their rate of saving break points.

In their charted matches on Tennis Abstract, they have the following pattern:

Djokovic has won 65% of all service points, but dropped to 62% on BPs.
Federer has won 68% of all service points, but similarly drops to 65% on BPs.
Nadal does a stellar job of only falling from 65% to 64% won on BPs. (Note! Nadal gets a big lefty advantage of serving most BPs from the favorable Ad side, which influences this stat in his favor.)
Stan 'Big Balls' Wawrinka likewise only drops from 66% to 65%. (Without any lefty advantage!)

But the key takeaway is that they all drop, logically enough.

But whopee doo, look at PETE -- in the charted matches he wins a lovely 68% of all service points. But when facing break points, where all others drop? He wins 70%. How does the man even manage to walk properly with those cojones.
 

lucky13

Semi-Pro
I’m not talking in terms of physicality and athletic ability. Purely mental prowess.

For me it has to be Novak for his utterly CLUTCH performances at AO 12, USO 11, USO 15, Wimbledon 14, Wimbledon 19, etc.
USO2010? that match paved the way for USO2011 and the 2 together did the same for W2019!


little stats:
https://www.atptour.com/en/stats/le...er&surface=all&versusRank=all&formerNo1=false

so nole is clearly the best of all time with a margin in ATP's own UNDER PRESSURE stats.

and stats on MP:



Federer:
2020: Sandgren 7
2019: Monfils 2, Coric 2, Thiem -2, Nole -2
2018: JM Del Potro -3, Benoit Paire 2, K Anderson -1
2017: Haas -1, Donskoy -3, Berdih 2
2016: Thiem -2, Cilic 3
2015: Kyrgios -2
2014: J. Monfils 2, L. Mayer 5, S. Wawrinka 4, J. Chardy -1
2013: T. Berdih -3
2011: F. Lopes 1, Nole -2
2010: Monfils -5, Baghdatis -3, Nole -2, Berdich -1
2006: O. Rochus 4, Roddick 3, Nadal -2
2005: Ferrero 2, Gasquet -3, Safin -1
2003. S. Draper 7, Verkerk 4, Aggasi 2, A Costa -3
2002: Haas -1, Escudé -1
2001: Massu 3, T.Johansson 1, Rafter -1, Novak -1
2000: Ljubicic 2, Hewit 1, wessels 1, Henman -2
1999: Raoux 2

22-24 (62-48)​
Nadal:
2019. Kyrgios -3, Medvedev 1
2017: Pouille 2
2016: Tiem -1, Zverev 1
2015: Raonic -3, Anderson 1
2014: Andujar 2
2010: Troicki 2, Benneteau 1, Davydenko -2
2009: Almagro 5, Nalbandian 5, Nole 3
2008: Moya 4
2006: Federer 2, O. Rochus 1
2005: Youzny 1, Berdych -3
2004: Ferrer -3, Calleri -2
2003: N. Lappenti -5

14-8 (31-22)​
Nole:
2020: Monfils 2
2019: JM Del Potro 2, Federer 2
2018: Cilic -1
2017: Verdasko 5
2015: Gulbis 2
2012: Andy 5, Tsonga 4
2011: Fed 2, Berdych 1
2010: Kohlschreiber 3, Fed 2
2009: Serra 5, Stepanek 3, Nadal -3
2007: Chela 2, Youzny -3
2005: G. Lopes 6

15-3 (47-7)

nole won 15 matches where he saved MP and lost only 3 matches where he had his own MB. a total of 47 saved MB in the matches he won in the end and only 7 lost MP in the matches he lost. clearly the best of the big 3 in this context.​
 
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Beckerserve

Legend
Funny thread this. The two men who are a country mile ahead of the slam leaderboard are clearly the mentally toughest. Who is tougher between them. Nadal since 2008. Federer 2003-2006 was as tough as they come. Only player close to either was Borg.
 

demrle

Professional
No one is saying Fed or Nadal were useless in 2008 or 11 respectively.

they werent at their peaks though. For Nadal it was clear. Looping backhands up the center of the court was going to work against Murray or Roddick but was not cutting it against someone like Djokovic.
Nothing was cutting it against Djokovic in 2011. Nadal was playing great, killing the field, just as he did in 2010. His problem was Djokovic, Nadal said as much himself. He played the only way he could and was looking for solutions that whole year. By AO 2012 final he managed to get to Djokovic's level
 

demrle

Professional
Wasn't Becker still his coach during the 2016 Wimb debacle ? The mental fatigue that followed RG badly hurt his case, I think. You would never have seen Federer or Nadal getting "gutted" because they win too much.
He wasn't gutted because he was winning too much. The guy was done, empty. He had been straight up dominating the tour for two years at the time, playing in 8 of the last 9 GS finals and winning 6 of the last 8 GSs. Maybe that mid 2016 - mid 2018 slump will turn out to be good in the end, as a restart in his career, if he ends up playing late into his 30s.
 

demrle

Professional
Yeah, everyone fails and runs into a wall when debatting with you. We know the drill. I suggest you to replace all your posts in this thread with a dot, as you do every time you're sensible enough to realize you're as flawed as everyone. We're done now.
Why would you waste time and energy arguing with that guy. That's by some margin the most insecure and butt hurt Fed fan around, obviously heavily triggered by Rafa getting to 20. Along with that USO guy, who is at least somehow cute in his despair. This one is venomous, while pretty shallow at the same time.
 

duaneeo

Legend
I wasn't a diehard tennis fan until the late nineties, so can only choose between Rafa and Djokovic.

A very easy decision.
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
Sissyhiss took the data specifically from the charted matches database, which only concerns matches for whom a detailed statistical chart has been manually compiled. Such efforts cover high profile matches better, naturally.
aren't the stats on the ATP site more relevant?
 
aren't the stats on the ATP site more relevant?
depends, big matches are kinda more important in terms of giving full clutch effort

Think it'd be best shown on a specific sample plucking out matches when a player was facing a significant rival (and would want to approach the match in full focus) or forced to show clutchness by a difficult opponent. For example, Sampras would seem a bit unclutch on serve in 1993 USO final giving two break with loose shots but he was breaking Pioline regularly and evidently wasn't worried about dropping an errant break, and delivered a straight-set schooling anyway.
 

RelentlessAttack

Hall of Fame
Rafa was beating everyone in 2011 except Novak. He was playing just as good as he did in 2010 imo
Nah he was still better than the field but remember he tore a a muscle at AO, and after coming back couldn’t hang with Novak stamina or speed wise. He also served much worse in 2011. Novak made big physical strides that year but to be faster and have much better stamina than the previously clear leader in both metrics? Either one has to acknowledge that Nadal wasn’t quite what he used to be in those departments or that there was foul play at work in the Djokovic camp since he acknowledges that he doesn’t have Celiac disease
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Wow, a GPPD thread where youngsters are hyping up Pistol. What is this forum coming to.

Anyhoo this may shock some of you but I actually do think there's something to the (counter)argument that Pete's mental strength is overrated, though not for the reasons his detractors think. But before I get into that y'all need to keep in mind that S&V/net rushing is an inherently risky style of play compared to counterpunching/retrieving. That's why Fed despite his success w/S&Ving on 1st serves at '03 Wimby eventually settled on the more familiar baseline game we've come to expect from him, not only because he naturally prefers high margins for error (IMO, yes) but because, well, when you've got those weapons why the hell not? And no doubt even an Edberg or Rafter would think twice about coming in on 2nd serves in this era, which probably wasn't that advisable even in his heyday.

Of course not all S&Vers are alike and Pete and Boris for that matter were a rather different breed: a big serve, equally big if not the most consistent groundies (or at least FH in Pete's case, if an absolute cannon on par with the biggest ever), volleys that relied more on power and placement than on touch a la Mac or Edberg, and, perhaps most importantly, a seemingly go-to-broke approach to the game which reportedly had Wilander wondering (though I've never been able to verify this) how anyone could play such freewheeling tennis and remain a consistent threat at the majors.

Needless to say we now know Mats' misgivings were largely unfounded, and his mistake, which continues to be widespread among pros and amateurs alike, was a failure to see the flip side of the coin. Playing relatively risk-averse percentage tennis is all well and good as it allows you to dominate the field with clinical efficiency, but even its best exponents, including a certain trio you may be aware of, eventually find themselves in need of an extra gear or two vs. worthy opponents. And they inevitably tighten up on big points, more so in major finals or their close equivalents, so they need to play outside the proverbial comfort zone and come up with a big ace, a line-painting FH or - gasp! - perhaps an unexpected S&V while down a BP, if not a huge MP/CP.

Which is a lot easier said than done, for anyone, but - you should see where I'm going with this - not so much for a Sampras or Becker who basically plays like that 24/7. Now I've got some reservations about the sample size of that TA database for Pete, but I think the point that these matches almost by their selection deserve more of our attention holds water, and as someone who probably has revisited his biggest matches more often than any of you I can say that even these stats don't fully convey just how confident and domineering the guy was on those big points. It often feels like Pete was still taking it easy, especially on return as if he knew (and he did more often than not) he could keep holding serve and break his opponent anytime. And while Boris lacked Pete's full arsenal and dedication the guy in his Boom Boom mode was almost as dangerous, which explains how he boasts a truly impressive record vs. the top 10 (65.1%), up there with the Big 3 (though Novak stands at 68.6% now I do expect him to come down to earth eventually), Sampras and Lendl despite his patchier resume.

That's what I mean when I concede that "Pete's mental strength is overrated." It was almost built into his game, whose relative low margin for error led to more losses but paid big dividends in the clutch vs. top opponents. And that's also why I say he'd get the better of the Big 3 at the majors outside RG (where he'd likely make a couple finals today). Which is an unverifiable opinion, of course, but I can say this with 99% certainty: there's no player in history who wouldn't have his hands full vs. prime Sampras on any grass or hard court, and if you think, swapping places with his closest rival, he wouldn't dominate Wimbledon or the USO in any era, you're wrong.
 

DSH

G.O.A.T.
Ángel Ruiz Cotorro, Nadal's doctor: "Rafa is possibly the strongest mentally in history"

For Angel Ruíz Cotorro, doctor of the Spanish Tennis Federation and Rafael Nadal, he assures that the Manacor player is the living example of psychological improvement and that in that aspect "he is always one step above the others". besides that he is "mentally strongest of all tennis players on the circuit and possibly in tennis history".

"From a psychological point of view, for many years Rafa Nadal has been showing that in situations of maximum tension, in the face of the most difficult moments that can exist in sport, in this case tennis, he is always a step above the rest"
, says Ruíz Cotorro in an interview with EFE Salud.

The director of the Medical Services of the Spanish Tennis Federation and general director of the Mapfre Tennis Clinic, considers that from the physical point of view, Nadal is "a marvel because he has qualities that are" difficult to have in the same player as it is an aerobic resistance and at the same time a lot of power".

And it is part, he explains, of a work carried out "since childhood with his physical trainer to achieve a very good aerobic base, which at the beginning he did not have."

The doctor points out that his normal physiological qualities are very high, because he has great resistance and that at the same time "he is a tennis player with explosiveness and power that are difficult to mix in the same person".

Ruíz Cotorro considers that the recent Roland Garros final against Serbian Novak Djokovic "constituted one of the most important moments in tennis history for both players".

"And Nadal, apart from his tennis level, which was very high and far superior to his rival, mentally faced the most prepared match",
he says when referring to the conquest of his twentieth Grand Slam, with which he has equated his friend Roger Federer.

"I have always thought that Rafa is one of the best competitors in the history of sport and the other day he showed it by winning the tournament", he adds.

His physical strength has been created since he was young, "with his first steps with his uncle Toni Nadal, who taught him what effort, work and mental capacity were", he says.

Because the latter "trains and during these years it has been one of the factors that he has really worked on the most."

"Currently, he is a player who has all those acquired routines; I think he is the mentally strongest of all the tennis players on the circuit and possibly in the history of tennis", he points out.

In his opinion, in addition, he is born with a one hundred percent competitive personality, and tennis is his passion.

"Rafa Nadal has a passion for this sport that makes him work, enjoy, improve himself constantly and I think that is what he is born with. In training he trains in extreme situations, which later serve him when it comes to finding solutions. It has been a real process that joins his very competitive base. All of that is natural to him".

Regarding his age and his competitors, remember that Rafa is 34, Djokovic 33, and Federer 39, and they are different situations. "Federer is in a different situation".

"In Rafa's case, as long as he has a passion for this sport and is able to compete as he did in this last Grand Slam against Djokovic, with that passion and preparation, he will continue to play tennis, because it is his life",
he says .

"How many years can he play ?, Well maybe two, three .. In the 2016 Olympic Games it was said, let's see if he can get to Tokyo, because we are in 2020, he would have had Tokyo, and he just won his 13 Roland Garros, playing perhaps one of the best games of his life", he says.

"I think that as long as the body supports him, he is excited and works every day as he is doing, because every time he plays better tennis, because we really have Rafa left for a few years," says the doctor who adds, however, that his tennis longevity " It depends on many situations, if the injuries respect him, but physically now he is very well".

In this specialist's opinion, the pandemic totally influences training, because it is a new situation for everyone, and the athlete, and especially the elite athlete, needs to have references and know what their goals are and where the moments are.

"Not only Rafa, but everyone has had a situation of not knowing where he was and it is very difficult for everyone to program, when they say that in March they confine us ..., it is no longer known when this or that tournament will be played".

Rafa, explains his doctor, has had his team behind him, his representative Carlos Costa, his coach Carlos Moyá, his physical trainer Joan Forcades, his physio Rafa Maymó, all of them.

"Everyone has been supporting him there, logically his whole family to really help him in those moments, because it is very difficult to program anything when you don't know anything", he says.

"And for the player they are very hard moments; the illusion and desire to train are closely linked to the objectives, and six months have passed in which he did not know when he was going to play", he continues.

When it is already defined what is going to be played, says Ruíz Cotorro, some objectives are set, "the team makes some decisions regarding whether or not to play in the US, and from there Rafa prepares for Rome and Roland Garros".

"That period has been hard for everyone, of course and he already said in past statements that sport is secondary to everything that society is experiencing, but on a personal level they have been very difficult months for him, for all athletes, for all the people who practice sports"
, he says.

"He has more than fulfilled, I think he has played one of the best games in a final against a great Djokovic. It has been a long time since I saw him play so well", says the doctor.
 
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Ángel Ruiz Cotorro, Nadal's doctor: "Rafa is possibly the strongest mentally in history"

For Angel Ruíz Cotorro, doctor of the Spanish Tennis Federation and Rafael Nadal
Next in the series:

Michele Ferrari: "Lance Armstrong is possibly the strongest mentally in history"



So, this is where the emoji comes from?

:censored:
 

socallefty

Legend
Looks like the Spanish doc gives him PEDs for mental toughness too along with the usual recovery/strength PEDs and micro doses of EPO. Maybe the anxiety attacks that Rafa had in 2015 were side-effects from the initial doses. Ok, I‘m kidding With no proof, but highly suspicious of all of the Big 3 and their ability to stay at a high level at an advanced age compared to tennis players of the past.
 

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
Looks like the Spanish doc gives him PEDs for mental toughness too along with the usual recovery/strength PEDs and micro doses of EPO. Maybe the anxiety attacks that Rafa had in 2015 were side-effects from the initial doses. Ok, I‘m kidding With no proof, but highly suspicious of all of the Big 3 and their ability to stay at a high level at an advanced age compared to tennis players of the past.
Tennis is not that clean, so you have a point here.
 

Musterrific

Professional
Definitely not Pete. It's not as hard to go for huge winners in big moments when you have a huge serve to rely on. Someone like Nalbandian has it much tougher to remain stable - while having a superior baseline game to that of the 90s dominator.

Pete: overrated servebot lucky to play during super-fast era.
Nonsense - did you even watch him play? His trademark was playing ordinary and then towards the business ends of sets and on crucial points he shifted into a higher gear. He was an incredibly clutch player at the most important moments.
 

Chezbeeno

Professional


Just gonna leave these here to stir the pot...

In all seriousness, Kyrgios shows remarkable mental toughness on extremely rare occasions, it's pretty crazy.
 
Nonsense - did you even watch him play? His trademark was playing ordinary and then towards the business ends of sets and on crucial points he shifted into a higher gear. He was an incredibly clutch player at the most important moments.
He bored me for a whole decade.

I already explained that to you.
 
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