Mental Picture Forehand rotation

FailBetter

Semi-Pro
For those with big forehands or/and good use of the kinetic chain...

Do you have a mental picture which could help me to use more the body instead of arm, wrist to generate power?

theoretical I know what I should do.. (unit turn.. loading on back leg,, pushing up/fire from the back hip.. with relaxed arm and wrist blablabla...)

But this theoretical stuff doesnt really helps.. its way to much to think about ( for me)

Here I want to create a list of the best imaginations I´ve found related to my issue:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...tant-basics-of-modern-fh.529960/#post-9229152
Years ago I got a free 10 minute lesson from Andre Agassi at a charity event we donated to. I was having forehand issues, hitting long, short, crappy timing.

He hit me forehands for 3 minutes, stopped me, smiled and said.... this will be easy. He dug into his bag, had some duct tape. Tore off a few pieces and put them on the front of my right shoulder. Said..."quit thinking a million different forehand thoughts, take a light grip on the racquet, relax your right arm, and just think of hitting the ball with your right shoulder. Rotate that spot of duct tape into the ball.". Quit using your arm and wrist so much, they are causing your inconsistency. Relax them and rotate your bigger muscles into the ball.

Within minutes I was rotating into the ball and nailing it. When things go bad, I go back to this and it's surprising how quickly things fall into place. Oh....he was a super nice guy to everyone and had so much fun with little kids.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-do-i-frame-the-ball-often.453290/#post-7183688
Now I used to be a major framer not too long ago, even against players I beat fairly easily I would still hit a few sideways.

Problem was that I was trying to hit out in front too much. Meaning a lot of times at impact my racket was close to being in line with my forearm. Once I learned to lead with the racket handle and keep a loose arm and wrist my forehand dramatically improved. I was finally hitting that effortless, clean, heavy ball I had always wanted.


http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/lag-and-snap-forehand.564843/page-2
It's an illusion.
What really is happening is a relaxed grip and wrist, the hand starts moving forwards, the racket has inertia so doesn't move quite as quickly, seemingly staying in place, while the hand moves farther forward, the wrist hinging hit's a limit and pulls the racket which accelerates forward to match the wrist making it LOOK like the player delayed his racket for the lag and snapped his wrist forward.
Just like the racket drop on the serve, it's a result of what happens when you relax your grip and your forearm.
I think this is the most critical point. But what makes the hand move forward is the question. You can do it using your arm and get the flip but it won't be proper pro style forehand. Once you move your arm and hand by sudden uncoiling of torso with almost no arm muscles involved, you've nailed it.

We have to be careful how we define wrist snap. As other posters have mentioned, the modern forehand does involve an acceleration of the wrist, but this is lateral, and not really a snap in the direction of the hinge. In other words, most modern forehands involve a manipulation of the wrist in the direction you would wave to someone (not up and down bye-bye wave, but in an arc from right to left and back). Usually, when laypeople talk about "snapping the wrist" they are referring to folding the wrist on its hinge (toward the pulse side), which is not proper for any forehand, modern or otherwise.
 
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The big thing for me is not to hit the ball, or swing at the ball, but hit through the ball.
Imagine you have a small medicine ball in your hand. not real heavy but a little heavy. I want you to chuck that thing across the room. You would push with your foot, rotate the hips into it, up your torso to your shoulders, until at the end the arm goes out and the ball goes.
That is a pretty good analogy to how you hit a fh. You are sort of pushing your hand through the ball, except you have a racquet that actually hits it.
If you do this, you have to use your whole body, rotate your hips and shoulders, and also you tend to hit more out in front which will help naturally produce topspin.

That second quote above, about leading with the hand, that is exactly what this feels like for me. I don't try to do that, the the end effect is just that.
 
I'm a bit confused about your analogy.. do I hold this medicine ball with both hands? and throwing it against a wall?o_O

That second quote above, about leading with the hand, that is exactly what this feels like for me. I don't try to do that, the the end effect is just that.
That again is exactly what I am looking for!
 
Don't think, just compress your human spring watch the ball seams as they roll and let your body do the rest.

No need for anger, no need for power, no need for perfection, no need to complicate. Just picture the ball path and allow your inner self to hit it.

By the way...

The duct tape tip is pure gold.
 
I'm a bit confused about your analogy.. do I hold this medicine ball with both hands? and throwing it against a wall?o_O


That again is exactly what I am looking for!

Think about throwing a shot put. We would never throw a shot put with just our arm, we would use our whole body. Naturally a forehand is oriented differently than a shot put, but the whole body dynamic is much the same, plus the idea of pushing your hand is similar. Your arm doesn't arc around like discus, but it more pushes forward. That is how you get the hand leading the racquet, as opposed to the hand and racquet moving along an arc together.
 
For those with big forehands or/and good use of the kinetic chain...

Do you have a mental picture which could help me to use more the body instead of arm, wrist to generate power?

theoretical I know what I should do.. (unit turn.. loading on back leg,, pushing up/fire from the back hip.. with relaxed arm and wrist blablabla...)

But this theoretical stuff doesnt really helps.. its way to much to think about ( for me)

Here I want to create a list of the best imaginations I´ve found related to my issue:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...tant-basics-of-modern-fh.529960/#post-9229152


http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-do-i-frame-the-ball-often.453290/#post-7183688

Great topic, Ive been thinking about the same thing!
 
Think about throwing a shot put. We would never throw a shot put with just our arm, we would use our whole body. Naturally a forehand is oriented differently than a shot put, but the whole body dynamic is much the same, plus the idea of pushing your hand is similar. Your arm doesn't arc around like discus, but it more pushes forward. That is how you get the hand leading the racquet, as opposed to the hand and racquet moving along an arc together.

I tried this.. first it seems to work but the second time it didnt..

I think the problem about this analogy is, if I'm thinking about push my hand through the ball then again I start using my arm/hand/wrist instead keeping it loose
 
I tried this.. first it seems to work but the second time it didnt..

I think the problem about this analogy is, if I'm thinking about push my hand through the ball then again I start using my arm/hand/wrist instead keeping it loose
Maybe it works just for me, but for sure these things take time to become natural.
Regardless, I wouldn't get too hung up on being loose. Loose/relaxed I think are poor words for playing tennis. I think "smooth" is a much better word. We want to be high energy, trying hard, but also not tight. It is a tough one to get right.
However you get there, I know the concept of hitting through the ball is sound, and important.
Good luck.
 
For those with big forehands or/and good use of the kinetic chain...

Do you have a mental picture which could help me to use more the body instead of arm, wrist to generate power?

theoretical I know what I should do.. (unit turn.. loading on back leg,, pushing up/fire from the back hip.. with relaxed arm and wrist blablabla...)

But this theoretical stuff doesnt really helps.. its way to much to think about ( for me)

Here I want to create a list of the best imaginations I´ve found related to my issue:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...tant-basics-of-modern-fh.529960/#post-9229152


http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/why-do-i-frame-the-ball-often.453290/#post-7183688

Yea I agree with you, the mental picture seems to be an almost immediate key to unlocking potential. For me, the kinetic chain was unlocked when I thought about hitting with a completely open stance (feet parallel to the net), and doing a full 90 degree unit turn with my shoulders only. After only a few hits this way my average ground-stroke speed soared. I have no idea how exactly I hit now, if it's open/closed or somewhere in between, but something changed after this short drill. It used to feel like I was jammed and hitting close to my body, now it feel like I have good extension and far greater power.
 
Imagine that you have a hammer, not a racquet/ and you are hammering down a nail really hard, really precisely, that the target on the ball is as big as a small nail head, yet, you are going to destroy the nail, and bottom it out with one blow.
 
Imagine that you have a hammer, not a racquet/ and you are hammering down a nail really hard, really precisely, that the target on the ball is as big as a small nail head, yet, you are going to destroy the nail, and bottom it out with one blow.

I think this ends in arming it again ( at least for me )
 
I can hit a pretty big forehand (relatively to my general level). My mental image is basically turning the shoulders. Rest follows automatically. If you think about swinging your arm, you won't get nearly as much easy power.

When I play matches though I don't think about what I have to do, not even about turning my shoulders. It's all ingrained now, I can trust I will perform the right technique, I basically just concentrate on where and how I want to hit the ball.
 
Update:

For about 2 months ago I watched a youtube video:


Then I tried this drill with my ball-basked (is this word correct in english? :=) and I recognized how much spin and pace I could generate just droping the ball and hit it with this loose wrist and arm.

In the last months I tried to implement this to my normal forehand... and its incredible. I almost cant hit too long anymore.. I can slap the ball so hard and everything goes in. just if I am way out of position then I cant control it, but thats normal I think.

If you watch some easy practice vids from Federer on youtube, you can see how he is looking for this loose arm and wrist in the first few minutes.


Just wanted to add this, maybe it helps some of you.
 
I overthink my forehand too much and tried many mental imagery but I found that if you hold the racquet extremely lightly and just move the racquet forward at the same time low to high, everything will follow.
 
update:

We have to be careful how we define wrist snap. As other posters have mentioned, the modern forehand does involve an acceleration of the wrist, but this is lateral, and not really a snap in the direction of the hinge. In other words, most modern forehands involve a manipulation of the wrist in the direction you would wave to someone (not up and down bye-bye wave, but in an arc from right to left and back). Usually, when laypeople talk about "snapping the wrist" they are referring to folding the wrist on its hinge (toward the pulse side), which is not proper for any forehand, modern or otherwise.
 
A combination of biomechanics and high speed video work together for understanding. A lot of what you see in high speed videos of tennis strokes involves the Stretch Shorten Cycle.

You use the misleading term "unit term". What is the "unit"? The upper body is defined as the body above the waist. Do you mean the body above the waist turns in a unit, like a barn door? But if we look at some of the biomechanics that are seen in high speed videos, we don't see what the words "unit turn" imply. What we see in a high level forehand high speed video is trunk twist. Why? Biomechanically, it's because the muscles of the spine and trunk are being stretched by twisting as part of many Stretch Shorten Cycles of many muscles.

High speed video is the "Mental Picture" that your are after and biomechanics is the rational theory that leads you until your discover that something is not well described. Look at Djokovic when he wants to hit a heavy pace forehand, look at the body between the hips and uppermost body (around the shoulders). You can see this watching a match on TV. But the science of biomechanics has appeared and progressed, not perfect, but the best approach around. Search: separation forehand Djokovic

The Kinetic Chain Concept (KCC) seems to have it origins with Bunn in the 50s to 70s. There is a widely referenced book for coaches.

The Kinetic Chain Concept states that body parts speed up and 'transfer' ??? their speeds in a sequence to smaller and more distal body parts, the last of which is the hand or foot. That is somewhat true, sort of. But thinking in terms of speeds misleads because it downplays or has nothing to say about the stretching of muscles and their Stretch Shorten Cycles. In other words, KCC emphasizes the kinetic energy of moving body parts but ignores the potential energy of stretched muscles. Once you see a tennis stroke as sequences of sub-motions to stretch and use many muscles, you can watch a high speed video and see what most likely is going on. If you view a high speed video as 'kinetic chain segments', sequentially speeding up without muscles being stretched, you are missing the stretched muscles that are critical to how tennis strokes work.

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It helps if we are always clear about defined joint motions vs the body part we most see as moving. For example, the shoulder joint vs the shoulder mass. Words are often ambiguous.

Agassi in the OP -
"quit thinking a million different forehand thoughts, take a light grip on the racquet, relax your right arm, and just think of hitting the ball with your right shoulder. Rotate that spot of duct tape into the ball."

That can be a very good piece of advice as long as it's clear what 'shoulder' is and if some additional motions are added. Here Agassi is using "shoulder" to mean the part of the body, the shoulder mass, seen and not the shoulder joint. In the actual stroke, the uppermost body is accelerated to turn rapidly - and move the shoulder mass with the tape on it, but also the shoulder joint moves the upper arm before impact. Simply looking at videos can show you what is going on. The video has much more complete and accurate information than the word description. But that word description adds "light grip" and "relax" not in videos .........

Djokovic forehand showing separation on the take back, hip lead on the forward swing. Separation - imagine a line between the shoulders, imagine a line between the hips, imagine how those lines would appear if viewed from above, that's the separation angle that indicates the stretch of twisting trunk muscles.
Single frame on Youtube use the period/comma keys.
 
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During the time between the racket drop (end of the loop) and right before the point of contact, the right arm's orientation with respect to the shoulder plane should not change. At least that's what the top ATP pros, such as Federer and Djokovic do. This enforces the forward motion of the right arm being carried by the shoulder/torso turn until right before the point of contact. Make sure to drop the racket to the 4 o'clock position -- tap the dog (3 or 5 o'clock is also fine), but if you let it slip to 6 o'clock, that, in conjunction with a relaxed arm and forward torso rotation will cause a disconnect between your arm and your torso. And that is when you will have to "arm" your swing to catch up. In other words, try to keep your right arm in front of your shoulder plane at all times.

Just before the point of contact the torso's turn comes to an abrupt stop, while the arm takes over (also referred to as "throwing the racket" like "skipping a rock"). This is really the transfer of energy from the torso to the arm in the kinetic chain and eventually to the wrist and to the racket head (no active wrist motion, just relaxed wrist). Shortly after contact everything relaxes and torso turn resumes to wind down through the follow through.


This creates a compact, easy to control swing with very effortless power and reduced risk of hitting outside of the sweat spot.

Bonus tip: Keep your left arm moving in unison with the torso and right arm to avoid opening up too early.
 
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Djokovic forehand showing separation on the take back, hip lead on the forward swing. Separation - imagine a line between the shoulders, imagine a line between the hips, imagine how those lines would appear if viewed from above, that's the separation angle that indicates the stretch of twisting trunk muscles.
Single frame on Youtube use the period/comma keys.

This separation angle discussion is very useful and illuminating to illustrate torso rotation and proper body coil - thank you.
 
Trunk and hips are always pointing in the same direction, disconnect trunk from hips, then send the trunk rotating by squeezing the right glute for the forehand. When is it most comfortable to execute this? When you're in a half squat, ie staying low
 
Opening up this thread !
i'm having the same issue as i know that i mainly use my arm to hit forehand and this is what caused me lot of troubles (Tennis Elbow) + Ulnar Nerve surgery.
Now that i'm regaining my shape et learning new ways of playing tennis, can anyone share with me a tips, mental image or a video that i can watch to really incorporate this body rotation in the forehand.
Should i consider that we start with the Hips then the shoulder then the arm follows ?
Or should the Hip and the shoulder start together and the arm will follow ?
It seems to be really hard to imagine since i always played with my arm and not used to use the arm as an only folllow through.

Thank's everyone for your help
 
I’m wondering if we overlook one fact when we use pros as a reference for rec tennis. Pros need much more of everything than you do: speed, spin, power, rotation, extension and the like.
 
I’m wondering if we overlook one fact when we use pros as a reference for rec tennis. Pros need much more of everything than you do: speed, spin, power, rotation, extension and the like.
What are you suggesting? That we rec should do with less?

You, who milk every minute detail of ground strokes? ;)
 
Opening up this thread !
i'm having the same issue as i know that i mainly use my arm to hit forehand and this is what caused me lot of troubles (Tennis Elbow) + Ulnar Nerve surgery.
Now that i'm regaining my shape et learning new ways of playing tennis, can anyone share with me a tips, mental image or a video that i can watch to really incorporate this body rotation in the forehand.
Should i consider that we start with the Hips then the shoulder then the arm follows ?
Or should the Hip and the shoulder start together and the arm will follow ?
It seems to be really hard to imagine since i always played with my arm and not used to use the arm as an only folllow through.

Thank's everyone for your help
Search my posts for clear high speed videos and details of stroke sub-motions for ATP & WTA players. I also use defined joint motions that you can Google.

Tennis Elbow is most often associated with the one hand backhand as far as I have read. If you have references saying otherwise, please post. I have posted on TE many times and given the references. Golfer's Elbow may be associated with the forehand. ? No references that I know of.

Forum search:
tennis elbow one hand backhand Knudson
Member: Chas Tennis

Search terms for forehand
forehand separation
separation angle
line between two shoulders
line between two hips
Bruce Elliott Youtube

Begins on forehand for first playback.
Gabe Jaramillo Youtube


Separation involves spine twisting and that may be too stressful for some, especially for older players and those with past back injuries. Proceed carefully and see a Dr if necessary.

Switch your tennis stroke information system to clear high speed videos of ATP players vs poor word based descriptions.

For lessor strokes I think that you are on your own for DIY stroke techniques..............
 
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Search my posts for clear high speed videos and details of stroke sub-motions for ATP & WTA players. I also use defined joint motions that you can Google.

Tennis Elbow is most often associated with the one hand backhand as far as I have read. If you have references saying otherwise, please post. I have posted on TE many times and given the references. Golfer's Elbow may be associated with the forehand. ? No references that I know of.

Forum search:
tennis elbow one hand backhand Knudson
Member: Chas Tennis

Search terms for forehand
forehand separation
separation angle
line between two shoulders
line between two hips
Bruce Elliott Youtube

Begins on forehand first playback.
Gabe Jaramillo Youtube


Separation involves spine twisting and that may be too stressful for some, especially for older players and those with past back injuries. Proceed carefully and see a Dr if necessary.

Switch your tennis stroke information system to clear high speed videos of ATP players vs poor word based descriptions.

For lessor strokes I think that you are on your own for DIY stroke techniques..............
Hello dear,
Thank you for the information provided, i will look at all theses videos right now.
For your information, i do play with double handed back hand and i have a tennis elbow that was confirmed with MRI and ultrasound.
I can confirm also that i do not have the golfer elbow as i did the MRI to confirm it.
I know that the real issue with my game is the fact that i’m not using a lot my body and have a poor footwork.
Here is a video of some of my forehands so that you can have an idea on how i do have pain in my arm with the forehand.

Thank you again for the time and the help you give to everyone in this forum.
 
Hello dear,
Thank you for the information provided, i will look at all theses videos right now.
For your information, i do play with double handed back hand and i have a tennis elbow that was confirmed with MRI and ultrasound.
I can confirm also that i do not have the golfer elbow as i did the MRI to confirm it.
I know that the real issue with my game is the fact that i’m not using a lot my body and have a poor footwork.
Here is a video of some of my forehands so that you can have an idea on how i do have pain in my arm with the forehand.

Thank you again for the time and the help you give to everyone in this forum.

My view of tendon injuries is that stopping stressing your injury immediately after you first get the injury is best. And that tendons can begin to heal defectively when stressed in a very short time. See the quote about "animal studies...." in the thread below.

I put the early publications related to this view in the thread Tendon Injury Nuthouse. The first post has that publication of the defective healing issue that I am most concerned about. See post on Tendinosis. -post #15?

If you have elbow pain, I don't think that you should be working on strokes.

My thread, Tendon Injury Nuthouse, has gotten out of date. I hope there is some better news in the last several years.
 
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Your strokes look as if they have a lot of the ATP sub-motions.

You can compare your Youtubes to ATP techniques one video above the other and single frame on the forum. I posted many such comparisons of poster's Youtubes starting a few years ago.

Forum Search: compare Youtubes Forum strokes
Member: Chas Tennis

For serves, always Google and Forum search: Ellenbecker shoulder impingement serve

Instructions are in the Youtube comparison posts.

You need to have similar camera angles for comparisons. The Djokovic forehand of post #24 is my most used stroke. He has a bent elbow forehand like you. Find a model forehand and similar camera angles for high speed video comparisons.
 
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Your strokes look as if they have a lot of the ATP sub-motions.

You can compare your Youtubes to ATP techniques one video above the other and single frame on the forum. I posted many such comparisons of poster's Youtubes starting a few years ago.

Forum Search: compare Youtubes Forum strokes
Member: Chas Tennis

For serves, always Google and Forum search: Ellenbecker shoulder impingement serve

Instruction are in the Youtube Youtube comparison posts.

You need to have similar camera angles for comparisons. The Djokovic forehand of post #24 is my most used stroke. He has a bent elbow forehand like you. Find a model forehand and similar camera angles for high speed video comparisons.
tons of stuff :)


this one is good...

 
Hello dear,
Thank you for the information provided, i will look at all theses videos right now.
For your information, i do play with double handed back hand and i have a tennis elbow that was confirmed with MRI and ultrasound.
I can confirm also that i do not have the golfer elbow as i did the MRI to confirm it.
I know that the real issue with my game is the fact that i’m not using a lot my body and have a poor footwork.
Here is a video of some of my forehands so that you can have an idea on how i do have pain in my arm with the forehand.

Thank you again for the time and the help you give to everyone in this forum.

Find someone that has a technically correct ATP forehand and have them show you the correct unloading sequence. You should be able to get the gist of it in 15-30 minutes, it's not that hard.
 
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