Mental toughness - Alcaraz v Sinner

[Aabye5]

Including their matches against each other and Djokovic, across the entire field, which player has shown greater mental strength between Jannik Sinner and Carlos Alcaraz?

Carlos Alcaraz has collapsed a couple of times in recent big matches. Whether or not that was a mental collapse or a failure of tactics is really the question. However, overall he seems to be pretty scrappy when things get tight, even against his rival, Jannik Sinner. Sinner, for his part, must have felt quite emotional during the lengthy doping investigation, but if he did, it didn't show in his performance -- calm, cool, and collected in NY and Melbourne.

So, which would you say is more likely to tough it out in a final set tiebreak at a major? Pick your player...

 

[Aabye5]

Funny to see Sinner leading this poll, but I lean towards that as well

 

[MeatTornado]

Alcaraz has way more tight match wins where he needs to be clutch. He has an absurd 5th set record in slams.

So I want to lean towards him, but it also feels a little unfair to penalize Sinner for winning his tournaments easier without much drama.

 

[jl809]

Specifically final set tiebreak at a major? It’s Alcaraz no question. 12-1 record in 5th sets speaks for itself. He also has ridiculous stats for how he raises himself up in 4th and 5th sets to cut out errors and hit more winners.

Now OP mentioned tiebreaks, and Sinner is Mr Tiebreak, with records now equalling or bettering that of Djoker’s best ever tiebreak streaks… but even then it was Alcaraz, not Sinner, who levelled up insanely to blow him away in their last tiebreak at Beijing 2024. So no guarantee for Sinner there either

Having said that, to answer the overall question of mental strength, it’s now Sinner, no debate. There is no way that post-puke Sinner displays the kind of immaturity and/or fear that characterised Raz’s screw ups vs Djoker at Cincy or the AO, or displays the casual lack of focus that Raz did in his slam losses vs Zverev and BvdZ

 

[nolefam_2024]

Alcaraz for sure.

 

[BallisticMissileFonseca]

Funny to see Sinner leading this poll, but I lean towards that as well

how exactly is that funny? I mean.. we can always talk about the mental strength of your favorite player if you're into funny.

 

[GRASScaraz]

Alcaraz for sure.

Is a choker against Djoko

 

[GrassMasters]

Recently Alcaraz has been a mug in the mental department. He needs to watch Wimbledon 2023 to remind himself of the man he was.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Baelos

 

[TennisGrandpA]

My boy Sinner by far, he’s cold as ice in every situation.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Alcaraz's 5 set record is mostly a result of him going far too often to the 5th against subpar opponents rather than a showing of great mental strength.

During the match it's clearly Sinner since he won't let sets he nearly won slip away from him. But overall maybe the spaniard has something more to give as Sinner often times threw away matches that he was going to win.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I would give a slight edge to Sinner, but not enough to even vote personally. They both have their moments, good and bad, but about equally.

 

[Aabye5]

how exactly is that funny? I mean.. we can always talk about the mental strength of your favorite player if you're into funny.

Because we are looking at Alcaraz and Sinner, and Alcaraz has a distinct edge in their matchup. But fans here do not seem to believe that it is a mental edge.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Alcaraz has a 12-1 record in matches that have ended in the fifth set, which shows great resilience considering that many of those 12 victories have come when he was down 2-1.
And even the only loss to Berrettini at the 2022 Australian Open came after he had recovered from a 2-set deficit.

The other side of the coin to this statistic is that Alcaraz has participated in 17 slam tournaments so far, winning 4, which means that in the 13 in which he has been eliminated this has happened 12 times before the decisive set, ergo, after losses in which he was overwhelmed by his opponent.
And all his latest eliminations in which he went out badly demonstrate this, the one with Djokovic at the last AO, the sensational one with VdZ at the last US Open, the very ugly one with Zverev at the Australian Open 2024 after the first 2 ignoble sets, let's say less the one with Medvedev at the US Open 2023, even if even on that occasion once he lost the first set in the tiebreak he took a hit and lost the second set badly.
Alcaraz, unlike Sinner, has this dangerous tendency to mentally abandon the match whenever he is overwhelmed by his opponent at a certain point in the match.

Having said that, as usual it is difficult to answer a question like this considering the many pros and cons to take into consideration, but above all how exactly do you measure mental strength?
Which parameters take precedence?

 

[Winner Sinner]

@Aabye5 If you had seen this thread of mine you should not have opened this poll.

Who is the most mentally solid player of the post-big three generations?

Let's continue with the polls. A question that may seem obvious today, however the mental question hides several facets. For example, Sinner himself who today is considered a kind of Borg-style iceberg, a silent killer, capable of dominating the circuit far and wide for about a year now, all...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[Aabye5]

@Aabye5 If you had seen this thread of mine you should not have opened this poll.

Who is the most mentally solid player of the post-big three generations?

Let's continue with the polls. A question that may seem obvious today, however the mental question hides several facets. For example, Sinner himself who today is considered a kind of Borg-style iceberg, a silent killer, capable of dominating the circuit far and wide for about a year now, all...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

I did see that thread and voted in it, but since I voted for neither Sinner nor Alcaraz, I feel like the poll results were watered down. Wanted to see how they stack up one-on-one.

 

[Gazelle]

Alcaraz more like Becker mentality, Sinner like Lendl. We might see that similarly shown in their career results and H2H.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Alcaraz more like Becker mentality, Sinner like Lendl. We might see that similarly shown in their career results and H2H.

Raz even talks big like Becker.

 

[Berrettini_Fan]

Alcaraz has a 12-1 record in matches that have ended in the fifth set, which shows great resilience considering that many of those 12 victories have come when he was down 2-1.
And even the only loss to Berrettini at the 2022 Australian Open came after he had recovered from a 2-set deficit.

The other side of the coin to this statistic is that Alcaraz has participated in 17 slam tournaments so far, winning 4, which means that in the 13 in which he has been eliminated this has happened 12 times before the decisive set, ergo, after losses in which he was overwhelmed by his opponent.
And all his latest eliminations in which he went out badly demonstrate this, the one with Djokovic at the last AO, the sensational one with VdZ at the last US Open, the very ugly one with Zverev at the Australian Open 2024 after the first 2 ignoble sets, let's say less the one with Medvedev at the US Open 2023, even if even on that occasion once he lost the first set in the tiebreak he took a hit and lost the second set badly.
Alcaraz, unlike Sinner, has this dangerous tendency to mentally abandon the match whenever he is overwhelmed by his opponent at a certain point in the match.

Having said that, as usual it is difficult to answer a question like this considering the many pros and cons to take into consideration, but above all how exactly do you measure mental strength?
Which parameters take precedence?

Berrettini GOAT confirmed

 

[Vincent-C]

Alcaraz more like Becker mentality, Sinner like Lendl. We might see that similarly shown in their career results and H2H.

I think the comparison of Alky to Becker is a pretty good one. Not sure I see the Sinner-Lendl similarity, though.

 

[Berrettini_Fan]

I think the comparison of Alky to Becker is a pretty good one. Not sure I see the Sinner-Lendl similarity, though.

They are both European and have robotic personalities.

 

[SonnyT]

Sinner tries harder, but Alcaraz has an innate ability to compete!

 

[nolefam_2024]

Sinner tries harder, but Alcaraz has an innate ability to compete!

Sinner is 1 pace. He is not mentally tougher. He is just better pt to pt.
Alcaraz can go to a level above when pushed and is mentally tougher.

 

[Vincent-C]

Dim could sure use an early break in the second.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Dim could sure use an early break in the second.

To go to Miami?

 

[TennisGrandpA]

Sinner is 1 pace. He is not mentally tougher. He is just better pt to pt.
Alcaraz can go to a level above when pushed and is mentally tougher.

I think massages helps Sinner relax more and enables him keep calm in every situation.

 

[vwanderaa]

This result will age badly. Alcaraz has always been more clutch and mentally stronger than Sinner with the exception of last year. He’s 21. He’ll mature.

 

[nolefam_2024]

This result will age badly. Alcaraz has always been more clutch and mentally stronger than Sinner with the exception of last year. He’s 21. He’ll mature.

Exactly. And even last year he was far more clutch when it mattered. He beat sinner 3 times coming from behind. How is that for mental toughness..

Are we saying bullying Medvedev who is slumping a bigger sign of mental toughness than coming from behind vs Sinner in 2024?

When the matches are tough, raz almost always shows up, very high serves in, making less mistakes etc. his game is more explosive so he loses a lot more pressure points than Djokovic and Sinner but even then he gets to these points a lot more as well..

 

[Winner Sinner]

Literally back to the wall canceling 3 consecutive match points and winning the match against the GOAT is no joke.

Just as it is no joke to dominate the circuit as if nothing had happened while the sword of Damocles hangs over your head in the case of the two positives.

Sinner has a monstrous strength of spirit.
What I always criticize is that every now and then he lacks the killer instinct, here I think Alcaraz is superior to him.
But when it comes to recovering from a situation of desperation Sinner in his still young career has shown many times that he does not give up.

Matches won by saving match pointsedit

Year
N. opponent
MP
Tournament
Surface
Score

2019
1. Steve Johnson
1
Italian Open, Rome
Clay
1–6, 6–1, 7–5

2021
2. Pierre-Hugues Herbert
1
French Open, Paris
Clay
6–1, 4–6, 6(4)–7, 7–5, 6–4

3. Karen Khačanov
1
Great Ocean Road Open, Melbourne
Hard
7–6(4), 4–6, 7–6(4)

2022
4. Alejandro Davidovich Fokina
3
Dubai Tennis Championships, Dubai
Hard
4–6, 7–6(6), 6–3

5. Emil Ruusuvuori
3
Miami Open, Miami
Cement
6–4, 3–6, 7–6(8)

6. Pablo Carreño Busta
5
Miami Open, Miami Hard
5–7, 7–5, 7–5

7. Tommy Paul
3
Madrid Open, Madrid
Red earth
6(4)–7, 7–6(4), 6–3

2023
8. Hubert Hurkacz
1
Monte Carlo Masters, Monte Carlo
Red earth
3–6, 7–6(6), 6–1

9. Novak Đoković
3
Davis Cup, Malaga
Cement(s)
6–2, 2–6, 7–5

 

[TennisGrandpA]

Exactly. And even last year he was far more clutch when it mattered. He beat sinner 3 times coming from behind. How is that for mental toughness..

Are we saying bullying Medvedev who is slumping a bigger sign of mental toughness than coming from behind vs Sinner in 2024?

When the matches are tough, raz almost always shows up, very high serves in, making less mistakes etc. his game is more explosive so he loses a lot more pressure points than Djokovic and Sinner but even then he gets to these points a lot more as well..

You maybe right , many times Carlos loses sets after being a better player and in the next set he starts playing as if nothing happened, for many players it could be soul crushing, that’s also a sign of mental toughness ( not confusing with playing points perfectly to win it like Sinner does)

 

[nolefam_2024]

You maybe right , many times Carlos loses sets after being a better player and in the next set he starts playing as if nothing happened, for many players it could be soul crushing, that’s also a sign of mental toughness ( not confusing with playing points perfectly to win it like Sinner does)

Also look at what he has done at such a young age.

Miami 2022 , won a masters at age 18.
Madrid 2022 , beat freaking Nadal and Djokovic back to back to win the title.
US Open, went 3 matches with 5 sets and won it at age 19
Wimbledon 2023 , won it after getting breadsticked in the first set
RG 2024 , won it beating Tsitsipas/Zverev/Sinner back to back winning in fifth set twice.

The guy is just 21 years old and has already beaten every single player in top 20 in big matches and all of them are older than him, not even 1 guy younger. Okay fils is younger agreed and they have 0-0 H2H.

 

[Winner Sinner]

 

[TennisGrandpA]

Also look at what he has done at such a young age.

Miami 2022 , won a masters at age 18.
Madrid 2022 , beat freaking Nadal and Djokovic back to back to win the title.
US Open, went 3 matches with 5 sets and won it at age 19
Wimbledon 2023 , won it after getting breadsticked in the first set
RG 2024 , won it beating Tsitsipas/Zverev/Sinner back to back winning in fifth set twice.

The guy is just 21 years old and has already beaten every single player in top 20 in big matches and all of them are older than him, not even 1 guy younger. Okay fils is younger agreed and they have 0-0 H2H.

Your argument made me change my vote to Carlos, i got confused mentally better player with a better player overall .

 

[Winner Sinner]

The people's judgment seems to have sided with Sinner in this case, as had already happened in the previous survey extended to players of the post-big three generations.

Alcaraz pays for all the embarrassing defeats that occurred, let's say, post Wimbledon 2023, where he often gave up without a fight.
Even the fact that he still has to be guided by Ferrero during the match does not help to make him appear so mentally solid.

 

[Aabye5]

The people's judgment seems to have sided with Sinner in this case, as had already happened in the previous survey extended to players of the post-big three generations.

Alcaraz pays for all the embarrassing defeats that occurred, let's say, post Wimbledon 2023, where he often gave up without a fight.
Even the fact that he still has to be guided by Ferrero during the match does not help to make him appear so mentally solid.

Even Jannik gets tips from Cahill. There is a lot of hat tapping.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Even Jannik gets tips from Cahill. There is a lot of hat tapping.

The member will turn totally dark from grey start at the beginning of his journey on this site.

Its not easy to stay grey

 

[Winner Sinner]

Even Jannik gets tips from Cahill. There is a lot of hat tapping.

In reality, it is more Vagnozzi who gives technical advice during the various matches.
For example, in the final of the 2024 Australian Open against Medvedev in the second set that was already compromised, Vagnozzi told him "use these remaining games to try to do something different".

Everyone receives advice during the match, but it is the frequency that makes the difference.
Alcaraz is one of the players most guided by his coach.

 

[SpinToWin]

How you answer this question probably depends on where you fall on the spectrum of “Alcaraz plays better in tight, match defining situations and his record shows it” and “Alcaraz finds himself in such situations more often, as he doesn’t close the door on matches”. Assuming you’re not coming in this with bias for one or the other player that is.

I lean slightly towards Sinner, as Alcaraz has been too hot or cold to my liking recently. Sinner does a better job of winning on off days I think, and I value that for mental strength too.

 

[Winner Sinner]

The member will turn totally dark from grey start at the beginning of his journey on this site.

Its not easy to stay grey

I argue what I judge, it is undeniable that Alcaraz is much more guided by Ferrero during the various matches than a Sinner with Cahill/Vagnozzi.
But I do not expect that someone who literally jumps from one wagon to another depending on the convenience of the moment, continually denying his own theses, will understand it.

I am sorry to point this out to you but despite your propaganda Sinner leads the poll, your vote is worth exactly as much as that of the others.
The people on the subject in question have taken sides, take note of that.

 

[nolefam_2024]

How you answer this question probably depends on where you fall on the spectrum of “Alcaraz plays better in tight, match defining situations and his record shows it” and “Alcaraz finds himself in such situations more often, as he doesn’t close the door on matches”. Assuming you’re not coming in this with bias for one or the other player that is.

I lean slightly towards Sinner, as Alcaraz has been too hot or cold to my liking recently. Sinner does a better job of winning on off days I think, and I value that for mental strength too.

We need stats to say Alcaraz find himself in tight matches more often.

As of today :
Raz has gone to deciding set just 78 out of 281 matches. 27.75%
Sinner has gone to deciding set 100 out of 350 matches. 28.57%

This is all extrapolation based on one year 2024 by many of the members, while forgetting how Sinner folds in many matches before. I remember distinctly in Miami 2021 was it, he folded under pressure in his first masters 1000 final.

 

[SpinToWin]

We need stats to say Alcaraz find himself in tight matches more often.

As of today :
Raz has gone to deciding set just 78 out of 281 matches. 27.75%
Sinner has gone to deciding set 100 out of 350 matches. 28.57%

This is all extrapolation based on one year 2024 by many of the members, while forgetting how Sinner folds in many matches before. I remember distinctly in Miami 2021 was it, he folded under pressure in his first masters 1000 final.

Hm I implicitly understood the question to be about both players now, in their prime. I think 2021 Sinner while good hadn’t quite hit his full stride yet. But I realise that the timing itself can introduce bias.

 

[TennisGrandpA]

Hm I implicitly understood the question to be about both players now, in their prime. I think 2021 Sinner while good hadn’t quite hit his full stride yet. But I realise that the timing itself can introduce bias.

Sinner is a superior player in his prime but doesn’t mental aspect should reflect even when your game is not clicking or not at your absolute best? Maybe someone’s playing style allow one to win ugly even having a bad day? I think we need to delve deeper.

 

[Winner Sinner]

We need stats to say Alcaraz find himself in tight matches more often.

As of today :
Raz has gone to deciding set just 78 out of 281 matches. 27.75%
Sinner has gone to deciding set 100 out of 350 matches. 28.57%

This is all extrapolation based on one year 2024 by many of the members, while forgetting how Sinner folds in many matches before. I remember distinctly in Miami 2021 was it, he folded under pressure in his first masters 1000 final.

In that final Sinner at 6-5 went to serve to win the first set, but Hurkacz managed to break Sinner's serve and then won in the tiebreak.
The usual lack of killer instinct that I blamed him before.

Then he took the blow at the beginning of the second set going down by two breaks and 4-0, but he didn't give up since he recovered up to 4-5.
So you're a liar, your propaganda trying to sell smoke is disgusting.

 

[nolefam_2024]

In that final Sinner at 6-5 went to serve to win the first set, but Hurkacz managed to break Sinner's serve and then won in the tiebreak.
The usual lack of killer instinct that I blamed him before.

Then he took the blow at the beginning of the second set going down by two breaks and 4-0, but he didn't give up since he recovered up to 4-5.
So you're a liar, your propaganda trying to sell smoke is disgusting.

Thank you.

Turn fully dark. I don't know how long members last after turning fully dark.

 

[Rosstour]

Before Sinner went on the juice, he lost a lot of matches through mental muggery, and I can remember specifically how tilted he got by Tiafoe and his antics in one loss. He still doesn't beat Alcaraz because Alcaraz exposes him and reminds him of who he is

 

[nolefam_2024]

I just hope sinner is not hated because of overzealous fans.

 

[Pheasant]

Alcaraz is right up near the top for clutch. He's 12-1 in 5th set matches; which includes his current winning streak of 9 straight. I believe that Borg holds the record by winning 12 consecutive 5-set matches. I'd like to see Alcaraz break this record.

Sinner is a fantastic player. And I don't have a favorite between these two. But I have to call a spade a spade. Alcaraz not only beats Sinner for clutch, but he's arguably in the top-3 all-time in clutch(Djoker and Borg are the top 2, IMHO).

 

[Rosstour]

I just hope sinner is not hated because of overzealous fans.

I don't hate him, but why should I love him?

He was hard to connect with even before the doping stuff. And now...even less relatable

 

[nolefam_2024]

Alcaraz is right up near the top for clutch. He's 12-1 in 5th set matches; which includes his current winning streak of 9 straight. I believe that Borg holds the record by winning 12 consecutive 5-set matches. I'd like to see Alcaraz break this record.

Sinner is a fantastic player. And I don't have a favorite between these two. But I have to call a spade a spade. Alcaraz not only beats Sinner for clutch, but he's arguably in the top-3 all-time in clutch(Djoker and Borg are the top 2, IMHO).

Yes I think alcaraz Djokovic borg are the top 3. Nadal very near them as well.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Thank you.

Turn fully dark. I don't know how long members last after turning fully dark.

Imagine, since I joined this forum (post final from Beijing) Sinner has yet to literally lose a match.

Instead, I hope for you that sooner or later Djokovic, deciding to retire, will definitively put an end to this discomfort of yours.
It's clear that you're in total confusion, an identity crisis.