What is your definition of "proficient at tennis?"
MEP is back !!!!!
- Thread starter dannyslicer
- Start date
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
I agree with what you have said, but what counts as proficient?
5.0 and above?
That's really proficient, but most people won't ever reach that level, I think.
Proficient enoguh to beat him 6-0 6-0? Or does winning 6-3 6-4 count?
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I mean he did say "time and practice". Like, you know, 6 hours a day, every day, since 6 years old............... Does not seem that impossible... /s
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
When scouting ITF opponents, a useful data point on the player profile page is “age started playing tennis”.
I haven’t done a systematic analysis, but the correlation between that “age-started” number and level is undoubtedly very strong.
If two players of same UTR are playing against each other, and one is a “6” and the other is a “4” based on self-described age started playing, the 6 usually has no chance to win, and a betting man could make a lot of money from this. It means the UTR lag hasn’t caught up.
mtommer
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure if level is the proper consideration since that can interpreted differently...or maybe I should say has been interpreted differently. I would say more like being able to hit it where, when and how you want for the most part....probably within a foot or two.
Now, I don't disagree most won't reach this level but most also never put in the time to do so for a variety of reasons. As for the winning score....I don't know what that should be. Perhaps just always winning would be enough barring an injury. Maybe 95%?
mtommer
Hall of Fame
Yes...but, and this a big but, that means non stressed. That doesn't mean pro vs. pro. Do you think Davis Cup player felt stressed in anyway or doing anything more than basically just hitting practice?
oh, ok, now I can agree. if by 'proficient [in tennis]' we mean someone that is able to "to hit it where, when and how you want for the most part....probably within a foot or two" then I fully agree that MEP is not going to pose any problems to such a 'proficient' player. I mean there might be perhaps 10 people in the world, if that, with such level of accuracy - but let's disregard that /s.
Sometimes I do wonder if folks posting here ever play tennis at all.......
mtommer
Hall of Fame
Why do you believe that's so few people? I have grown up around juniors and college players who practiced that way all the time. Many, many, many players. Now sure, an actual foot, no I didn't go measure but I would doubt anything more than four, maybe five. I've watched ex pros like Change, Courier, Roddick, more warmup and hit the same spot within inches consistently. For me, that's beyond proficient. But the former.....have you not been around decent players very much?
It's okay guys, internet back seat coaching exists in pretty much every sport, although I think tennis tends to be a bit behind most other sports in the content creation space. This is more or less golf's version of MEP who managed to break through and made recreationally winning ugly great again.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
If you don't do something 10 hours a week, you are probably bad at it.
If you don't do something 20 hours a week your are probably not competent.
J
dannyslicer
Professional
Ratings do not lie
dannyslicer
Professional
Many 3.0 hackers play 20 hours a week, for decades
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Oh @dannyslicer , do you know many 3.0 hackers that play 20 hours a week? Literally? 4 hours x 5 days every week?
Anyway,
Regardless of a debate of the minute definition of proficiency @jmnk , @mtommer has a point that a Davis Cup player will not get stressed by a UTR 6 player, nor will a UTR 7-10 player, and there are a lot of those players out there.
Anyway,
Regardless of a debate of the minute definition of proficiency @jmnk , @mtommer has a point that a Davis Cup player will not get stressed by a UTR 6 player, nor will a UTR 7-10 player, and there are a lot of those players out there.
oh, the ever popular moving the goalposts technique. Highly effective.
Of course you did not measure anything. If you did you would realize that your perception and reality are two different things. Do you realize what the difference in area of 1foot radius vs area of 5feet radius is? the latter is _twenty five times_ larger. You went from argument "many, not even professional players, are proficient enough to hit within a foot of a target, at will mind you" to "college players can hit within 5 feet of a target". To give you an idea how vastly different such targets are
Sure. There are thousands of hours of youtube videos of various tennis players of all levels practicing. Would you mind linking a video or two where anyone can hit the same spot within inches repeatedly?
I actually have seen quite a few decent players in person. Just last week I happened to visit Nadal Academy, where decent junior players (I would say ~5.0USTA level range) practiced. They were running that drill where you need to hit cooperatively 20 shots each between service line and the baseline. That is a huge area compared to 'within 1foot of a target'. Not one pair of players managed to do that in about 5 or so minutes I was watching.
Of course former ~1000ATP pro that is still healthy is not going to be bothered by MEP. Or anyone at 4.5 level. Or at 5.0 level. That's not my point. My point is that any time a video of MEP is shown, especially when he loses against vastly higher level player, people are saying "well, see, it does not take much to beat MEP. You do not need 120mph serve, or have a killer forehand, you just need to do XYZ" and implying that literally anyone can do XYZ if he wanted. Which is simply not true. I may not like MEP's style, you may not like it, we may all cringe at his serve, or lack of topspin, or 'visuals' in general. MEP is not good at it. What he _is_ good at is winning tennis matches at 4.5 level. That's all there is to it.
mtommer
Hall of Fame
This is interesting. Putting in the time and hard work somehow equates to "does not take much". That's a new one.
BTW, I meant diameter when I changed from 4 to 5, not radius. I did mean more like a radius (although I meant it as more of a general statement) when I said 1-2....so basically I upped my estimate by a smaller margin than you think. But that wouldn't have come across so I don't fault your take.
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dannyslicer
Professional
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
Who's J?
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
I kinda agree with you, but what recreational player is going to manage to play 10 hours a week?
I haven't played in the last month because daily life makes me busy enough that I don't get enough time to play tennis lately. I wish I could play 10 hours a week. Perhaps 5 hours a week is a more accurate estimate for recreational tennis players? I mean, to be able to play that every week?
Curious
Talk Tennis Guru
Need to be single unless your spouse is a tennis enthusiast as well. I don’t see that often.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I am in my mid-50s and have been playing 12-15 hours a week for about 15 years when I’m not traveling - a mix of singles, doubles and practice. I play for a couple of hours every day and it is my only form of exercise. I’m sure there are many other adults who exercise a couple of hours per day in the gym or otherwise - in my case it is all tennis. I know several members at my tennis only club who play 8-10 hours a week - 5 days of doubles in their case. Many of them are retired with grown-up kids or housewives who don’t work and it is their only form of exercise also. If you belong to a private tennis club, tennis is not only your main form of exercise, but your social life revolves around tennis as most of your friends are tennis friends that you also socialize with in the club bar/restaurant after a match.
My wife plays 5-6 days a week and averages about 9-10 hours a week also - she plays in the mornings before work while I play mostly in the evenings after work and we play together only on some weekend days.
However, it is unusual to find adults who play more than 15 hours a week and I don’t believe there are players who do that at the 3.0 level as one poster (who is famous for exaggeration) claimed, as that is 3 hours a day daily. Only juniors who do a lot of practice daily in development programs manage that.
StringSnapper
Hall of Fame
I guess jolly's point depends on how one defines "bad at it" or "not competent". But in truth I imagine even just a 5 or 6 UTR is better than 90+ of other people that play tennis. most don't play weekly!
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I'm with ya, but the slight mirage is it takes a lot to beat MEP, and I guess it all depends on perspective. I suppose a better perspective for me would be most people watching MEP can't beat him, that's probably true, I just think those people also think the level of a UTR 6 is 4.5, which isn't quite reality. I don't have a problem with his style, I envy his athletic ability to be honest. And since he has been on video for years, seems like no one can really copy him with much success.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Haha, sure you will see people playing, lunchtime ladies at the club do NOT play 4 hours 5 days a week, people who come by the club after work don't, retired people, don't. But, maybe some do occasionally squeeze in a 4 hour session, but you were saying "many play 20 hours a week". Let's be real.
This is much more realistic.
Even Socallefty who is a tennis fanatic is not quite reaching 20 hours a week @dannyslicer , and SCLefty has years of observing tennis at a big club in California, and I think we can all trust his observational skills.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Guys,
I'm struggling to over my regular opponent's game. He hits hard and I also try to hit hard, out pace him but it doesn't seem working.
What are the requirements for playing like a MEP, which I'm thinking of trying?
1. React and respond like crazy.
2. Reduce the power level and simply get the ball back in court?
I'm struggling to over my regular opponent's game. He hits hard and I also try to hit hard, out pace him but it doesn't seem working.
What are the requirements for playing like a MEP, which I'm thinking of trying?
1. React and respond like crazy.
2. Reduce the power level and simply get the ball back in court?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I will try just that in an hr.
Forget everything. Just hit the damn ball back where he ain't.
I suspect I won't miss (much) if I hit just 50% force, though I don't know if he will miss my soft shots either. Intriguing.
To beat MEP, just follow my 6 tips in https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/great-tennis-tips.783484/
dannyslicer
Professional
user92626
G.O.A.T.
That's not gonna work against someone who's used to sliced balls.
Guys, I have to conclude that MEP / pushing is unquestionably a special, unique style. You cannot transform another style, like a regular, topspin driving to it, and call it MEP / pushing. It just doesn't work.
For instance I tried to reduce power, increase court margin -- thus increase percentage, and also got me more energy / focus for running, getting to more balls. But all I did was giving my opponents easy, topspin balls to my opponent to tee off. Like, 70 years old men's shots?
dannyslicer
Professional
You playing ATP tour?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
It might be a bit ambitious to expect mastery of a new style of play on day 1.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
user92626
G.O.A.T.
haha... atp aspired opponents. These guys reference atp alot. I guess.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
dannyslicer
Professional
What these clowns don't get is that it takes decades to develop a 4.0 to 4.5 junker style.
They are magicians
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Well, I was called a jester in my teen years. Try never lose the fun so I'm glad to be called a clown.
4.0 took about two years and 4.5 took about three-and-a half, in one particular case.
dannyslicer
Professional
Forgot what a great video Ian made here, highlighting what clueless idiots most tennis players are.
Bravo Ian!
Bravo Ian!
ProStaffFanatic
Semi-Pro
If that doesn't work, try something else
Sounds like hitting harder yourself is playing into his strengths, and perhaps into your weakness also (since you can't keep up...) . So do the opposite: slow the game down. Throw in a couple slices and some higher deep slow heavy spin shots.
Extreme discipline and stamina.
dannyslicer
Professional
The outcome is obvious after watching the first 2 games
What a great match. So enjoyable than ATP
5 years in, MEP still delivers the goods.
Proving yet again, strokes mean nothing, and topspin is the grossly overestimated pedestal
@GSG great to see you still grinding your wizardry!
This should be required viewing for anyone under 5.0
What a great match. So enjoyable than ATP
5 years in, MEP still delivers the goods.
Proving yet again, strokes mean nothing, and topspin is the grossly overestimated pedestal
@GSG great to see you still grinding your wizardry!
This should be required viewing for anyone under 5.0
optic yellow
Legend
I watched 30 seconds starting at 13:15 and my initial reaction is that I will never understand why it is standard tennis practice to continue hitting deep power shots to someone standing 2m behind the baseline.
That is why Carlitos uses dropshots.
Humans are creatures of habit. It is difficult to change ingrained patterns. Even that has to be learned.
I personally don't like to dropshot during hitting sessions because of my empathy for my opponent as I am a very sensitive person, and guess what that does for the ability to do so in a real situation?
optic yellow
Legend
Yes and even he doesn't use topspin droppers enough. It completely breaks the paradigm of professional tennis play when a player is not willing to handshake the baseline bashing. The same is observed with serving. I have no idea why people do not drop serve Medvedev aggressively rather than just try to hit hard directly into him. Yes people are creatures of habit but this is plain inefficient and serving is the easiest shot to not play on instinct because there is no serious temporal stress.
Yeah sometimes when I am hitting, especially with my friends (who are all worse than me), I just do stuff like that and apologize by telling them that I have to keep the mind-muscle connection trained a little bit in those scenarios. When I've played random people at parks that were worse than me I've found myself holding back from destroying them and then later on when I actually want to I've found myself unable to make the shot.
