MEP vs ET Players - Original TT Epic

Who wins?

  • Ian to dish out bagel and a stick

    Votes: 9 9.1%
  • Ian Wins

    Votes: 43 43.4%
  • Ian just manages to win

    Votes: 22 22.2%
  • Green shirt teaches Ian a lesson

    Votes: 6 6.1%
  • Green shirt wins

    Votes: 13 13.1%
  • Green shirt shocks the tennis world

    Votes: 6 6.1%

  • Total voters
    99
  • Poll closed .
Sean went in with the wrong attitude. He should have portrayed himself as the underdog and said he looked forward to the challenge of playing GSG who has a winning record in usta matches in an area known for quality tennis players. He should have been trying to take the pressure off himself. Easier said than done but he needed a much more positive attitude. He acted like it's so demeaning to lose to GSG.
It's frustrating when you know what you have to do but are unable to consistently execute. I've certainly had that experience before and it's a way worse feeling than simply getting hit off the court.
 

GSG

Rookie
Sean went in with the wrong attitude. He should have portrayed himself as the underdog and said he looked forward to the challenge of playing GSG who has a winning record in usta matches in an area known for quality tennis players. He should have been trying to take the pressure off himself. Easier said than done but he needed a much more positive attitude. He acted like it's so demeaning to lose to GSG.
I didn't understand Sean's line of thinking on this either. Look at it this way: if you polled 100 4.0-4.5 players and told them nothing about me other than my rating and my record, then asked them "Would you feel demeaned/embarrassed after losing to this person in three sets?" how many of those 100 players would answer yes? Maybe 2?
 

denoted

Rookie
I didn't understand Sean's line of thinking on this either. Look at it this way: if you polled 100 4.0-4.5 players and told them nothing about me other than my rating and my record, then asked them "Would you feel demeaned/embarrassed after losing to this person in three sets?" how many of those 100 players would answer yes? Maybe 2?
I think that when your first video was posted here, I wrote something like "this is the most important video in rec tennis," because of how clearly it showed that errors lose matches regardless of technique. I would guess that Sean was frustrated because his technique is more orthodox, yet that wasn't enough. As many others have pointed out, almost every tennis community has someone who plays with your general style, and who often beats (and frustrates) players with seemingly better technique. What is so tantalizing about your videos (and results) is how widespread the delusion is that your style only works at a certain level, like 3.5 or 4.0. That, combined with the familiar effect of people who haven't seen themselves playing tennis on video, leads to mass confusion and fascination.
 
I didn't understand Sean's line of thinking on this either. Look at it this way: if you polled 100 4.0-4.5 players and told them nothing about me other than my rating and my record, then asked them "Would you feel demeaned/embarrassed after losing to this person in three sets?" how many of those 100 players would answer yes? Maybe 2?
There you go, being logical again! We all know people not always very logical.

If you served 120mph and had a 4000rpm FH but were inconsistent and achieved the same record, people would have a different expectation than if you were a defensive player. The way I see it, I know if I can execute the shots that I think I "own", I should win. The match is on my racquet.

The problem is that perhaps I don't own the shot as completely as I think I do. Or maybe my footwork is not quite up to snuff which gets revealed against the type of shot you typically hit. Or maybe I'm not accustomed to having to execute so many times because my opponent typically donates a lot more errors. Ian and Topher actually discussed the pressure of having to be "on" for the entire match and how exhausting mentally that is. I think that's a huge factor.

Whatever the case, what seems simple turns out to be not so simple. And that's extremely frustrating.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
What is so tantalizing about your videos (and results) is how widespread the delusion is that your style only works at a certain level, like 3.5 or 4.0.
It is not delusional. Let's not kid ourselves.

At least 98% with that style do not break into 4.5.

MEP is extremely rare. That is why he is famous.

Your best chances of breaking into, and winning, at the 4.5 level are with more conventional strokes, split-steps, solid overheads and volleys. There is most definitely a ceiling with the pusher style. Although MEP is not even a classical pusher since he posseses some devasting weapons: passing shots and accurate drop volleys.
 
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I didn't understand Sean's line of thinking on this either. Look at it this way: if you polled 100 4.0-4.5 players and told them nothing about me other than my rating and my record, then asked them "Would you feel demeaned/embarrassed after losing to this person in three sets?" how many of those 100 players would answer yes? Maybe 2?
I once played a fellow 4.5 and barely won. Turns out he was an ex-pro soccer player. He had non-textbook strokes but he got everything back, made very few errors, and could run almost everything down...and he never got tired [that I could see]. On multiple occasions, I had to "win" the point 3-4 times because he kept retrieving my "winners". This was a mentally grueling match.

If I had let my bias take over, I could have seen from the warmup that he didn't have pretty strokes and might have concluded that I should win easily. But I knew better to fall into that trap.

And since Sean had time to study your matches, he had the same opportunity and perhaps he drew the wrong conclusion [ie "I feel like a bad player because I couldn't execute" when, in fact, you had a great deal to do with his inability to execute. However, that's a lot more subtle than facing a big hitter.].
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Sean went in with the wrong attitude. He should have portrayed himself as the underdog and said he looked forward to the challenge of playing GSG who has a winning record in usta matches in an area known for quality tennis players. He should have been trying to take the pressure off himself. Easier said than done but he needed a much more positive attitude. He acted like it's so demeaning to lose to GSG.
His words - "Missed thousand easy balls inside the service line, I'm a terrible player".
I got the impression that he was upset that he was hitting what he considered "easy balls" out or not able to put away and he thought he failed to execute normal shots. Did he act as if it was demeaning to lose to MEP? I didn't see it.
imo, Sean is aware of only two places in the court to hit - deep BH corner or FH corner. Unless he learns to utilize short angles (and other geometric positions on the court), he is going to struggle to close out against players who hit lots of "easy balls" back.
 
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travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Sean went in with the wrong attitude. He should have portrayed himself as the underdog and said he looked forward to the challenge of playing GSG who has a winning record in usta matches in an area known for quality tennis players. He should have been trying to take the pressure off himself. Easier said than done but he needed a much more positive attitude. He acted like it's so demeaning to lose to GSG.
I haven’t watched the match yet. But I watched a few games of the first set with amusement.

Having played against GSG myself, I know he’s a legit top-level 4.5.

Given Sean is a high 4.0, it means there is a significant level gap. Everything I saw from Sean looked like the prototypical high 4.0 to me.

It was pretty clear from what I watched that GSG was sticking to his conservative game plan because he knew that if he could just adjust a bit better to the court surface and find something close to his ‘B’ game, it would be plenty to dispatch Sean.
 
It is not delusional. Let's not kid ourselves.

At least 98% with that style do not break into 4.5.
I once played a fellow 4.5 and barely won. Turns out he was an ex-pro soccer player. He had non-textbook strokes but he got everything back, made very few errors, and could run almost everything down...and he never got tired [that I could see]. On multiple occasions, I had to "win" the point 3-4 times because he kept retrieving my "winners". This was a mentally grueling match.
I'd say people are downplaying the difference in athleticism - pushers get a bad rep in tennis despite oftentimes being the better athlete with worse form. Nobody ever thought Shaq didn't deserve to win MVP/FMVPs because he had a terrible shooting form because people understood his athleticism set him apart. In almost all professional sports athleticism trumps form - because you can't teach height, speed, explosiveness, but you can develop proper mechanics. You'd have to take up golfing, billiards, or bowling to swing the talent pool in favor of form over raw athleticism. There's no shame in losing to a better athlete in an athletic competition.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I'd say people are downplaying the difference in athleticism - pushers get a bad rep in tennis despite oftentimes being the better athlete with worse form. Nobody ever thought Shaq didn't deserve to win MVP/FMVPs because he had a terrible shooting form because people understood his athleticism set him apart. In almost all professional sports athleticism trumps form - because you can't teach height, speed, explosiveness, but you can develop proper mechanics. You'd have to take up golfing, billiards, or bowling to swing the talent pool in favor of form over raw athleticism. There's no shame in losing to a better athlete in an athletic competition.
This is good point.
 
His words - "Missed thousand easy balls inside the service line, I'm a terrible player".
I got the impression that he was upset that he was hitting what he considered "easy balls" out or not able to put away and he thought he failed to execute normal shots. Did he act as if it was demeaning to lose to MEP? I didn't see it.
imo, Sean is aware of only two places in the court to hit - deep BH corner or FH corner. Unless he learns to utilize short angles (and other geometric positions on the court), he is going to struggle to close out against players who hit lots of "easy balls" back. Boss of Atlanta wins because he is a master of short angles and a master of tennis court geometry.
Sean probably does better with those short balls against more conventional opponents or in practice. But maybe the pressure of the situation caused him to overcook the shot or fail to achieve good footwork or tighten up. If he had made the majority of those shots, he would have won the 2nd set, even without the short angles [certainly having short angles makes one an even better player but it wasn't critical].
 
It is not delusional. Let's not kid ourselves.

At least 98% with that style do not break into 4.5.
@denoted's point was that some do, not how common it is. So the fact that some do mean's it's not impossible.

87% of any style do not break into 4.5.

MEP is extremely rare. That is why he is famous.
I don't know if "extremely" is the right word: I've run into maybe 3 at 4.5.

Your best chances of breaking into, and winning, at the 4.5 level are with more conventional strokes, split-steps, solid overheads and volleys. There is most definitely a ceiling with the pusher style. Although MEP is not even a classical pusher since he posseses some devasting weapons: passing shots and accurate drop volleys.
Every style has a ceiling. But I would propose that a pure pusher style ceiling is at least 4.5 which is higher than most people achieve anyway. So using the ceiling argument might not be valid.

Pushers have passing shots; it's just not in their comfort zone and they'd be much more comfortable playing everything from the BL.

Bottom line: if someone is choosing what style to play, ideally he ought to base it on his skill set, athleticism, mental toughness, preferences, etc. Maybe more would choose MEP's style if they considered those factors. The self-taught are forced down this path; the ones who take lessons are forbidden from exploring it.
 
I'd say people are downplaying the difference in athleticism - pushers get a bad rep in tennis despite oftentimes being the better athlete with worse form. Nobody ever thought Shaq didn't deserve to win MVP/FMVPs because he had a terrible shooting form because people understood his athleticism set him apart. In almost all professional sports athleticism trumps form - because you can't teach height, speed, explosiveness, but you can develop proper mechanics. You'd have to take up golfing, billiards, or bowling to swing the talent pool in favor of form over raw athleticism. There's no shame in losing to a better athlete in an athletic competition.
Ian did an interview with MEP and one of the questions was why people get so frustrated playing him. What I think he left out was that people underestimate athleticism and overestimate technique. He also places a good deal of emphasis on mental toughness.

 
I haven’t watched the match yet. But I watched a few games of the first set with amusement.

Having played against GSG myself, I know he’s a legit top-level 4.5.

Given Sean is a high 4.0, it means there is a significant level gap. Everything I saw from Sean looked like the prototypical high 4.0 to me.

It was pretty clear from what I watched that GSG was sticking to his conservative game plan because he knew that if he could just adjust a bit better to the court surface and find something close to his ‘B’ game, it would be plenty to dispatch Sean.
A few points going the other way in the second set would have meant a Sean victory. GSG did adjust to his credit [not everyone could] and he did it in a timely fashion.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
A few points going the other way in the second set would have meant a Sean victory. GSG did adjust to his credit [not everyone could] and he did it in a timely fashion.
I’m not saying that Sean wouldn’t have won if luck had swung a little in his direction.

But I would say fairly definitively, based on the 0.5 level gap, that Sean would be extremely unlikely to get that close to victory again if they played another 10 times.
 

denoted

Rookie
Another point, though, I should mention to be fair is that some people who play tennis are unwilling to play worse in the short run for long-term improvements. I know players who slice and hack simply because they are less consistent with normal strokes and are unwilling to learn them because that means they might lose some matches against the same people they play all the time.
 
I’m not saying that Sean wouldn’t have won if luck had swung a little in his direction.

But I would say fairly definitively, based on the 0.5 level gap, that Sean would be extremely unlikely to get that close to victory again if they played another 10 times.
I think the closeness was mainly due to GSG having to transition from outdoor slow courts in the elements to indoor fast courts where elements played no role. All disadvantageous to him.

And if the next match was in ATL on GSG's home court in the summer heat and humidity, I don't think it would be as close.
 
Another point, though, I should mention to be fair is that some people who play tennis are unwilling to play worse in the short run for long-term improvements.
I would go further and say "the vast majority of rec players".

We're not all playing for the same reasons. Many are perfectly happy where they are. The ones who drive me nuts are those that complain about where they are but are unwilling to do anything to change: every suggestion is met with why they can't do it.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I think the closeness was mainly due to GSG having to transition from outdoor slow courts in the elements to indoor fast courts where elements played no role. All disadvantageous to him.

And if the next match was in ATL on GSG's home court in the summer heat and humidity, I don't think it would be as close.
The other hidden x-factor that will affect future matches is that at the time of the Sean vs MEP match, MEP was using a 9.5-oz. racquet as his primary weapon. I heard a rumor that he has moved up in weight class since then.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Interesting thread and an awesome match.

TLM is correct. An average 4.5 should double breadstick an average 4.0, Ian has also stated this in one of his podcasts or videos. However none of that applies here becuase GSGs weapons are strategy & endurance and these guys have been dissecting his game for months to the finest detail. That is the reason it was close. They got the strategy down pretty well but forgot the endurance.

Topher has the endurance and got the desired result.
Sean said himself that when he plays some of the 4.5 guys at his club he doesn’t stand a chance and that’s why he is a 4.0 level player. But that’s why it surprises me that Sean played this close to MEP who has a great record against 4.5 players in Atlanta.

Sean had a legitimate chance at winning this match in straight sets, which really surprised me because I’ve played Sean and he gets frustrated easily over off speed shots and slice and dice tennis.

I guess the guys at our club that are playing 4.5 are more like 5.0 level players, or at least the top singles guys are.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
It's frustrating when you know what you have to do but are unable to consistently execute.
Ad immensum.

Maybe some player are lucky enough not to ever experience this, or maybe they just sugar coat it and find other excuses for the loss, but I have some days I will have a set, or the whole match where I am duffing shots and getting frustrated knowing they are well within my skillset on most days. Like easy shots like Sean had as well, and just letting pressure and mental lapses cloud physical performance. I understand the negative talk in absolutes for sure so I ain't going to judge, but learn from it as I am sure this is also doing for Sean. So not a bad loss really being a 4.0 losing to a 4.5 in a three set match. Cleaning up the errors physically is actually the easier part of that compared to fighting those inner mental/emotional battles.
 
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travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Sean said himself that when he plays some of the 4.5 guys at his club he doesn’t stand a chance and that’s why he is a 4.0 level player. But that’s why it surprises me that Sean played this close to MEP who has a great record against 4.5 players in Atlanta.

Sean had a legitimate chance at winning this match in straight sets, which really surprised me because I’ve played Sean and he gets frustrated easily over off speed shots and slice and dice tennis.

I guess the guys at our club that are playing 4.5 are more like 5.0 level players, or at least the top singles guys are.
Where is this club of yours? Chicago?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I’m interested in volunteering for cross-regional challenge experiment.
If you are ever in the area I would be glad to hit with you. One of my hitting partners is a 4.5 out of my club that I’m sure would hit with you also. I’m probably too weak for you but my buddy would be more your level.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
If you are ever in the area I would be glad to hit with you. One of my hitting partners is a 4.5 out of my club that I’m sure would hit with you also. I’m probably too weak for you but my buddy would be more your level.
Rampras?
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
It is not delusional. Let's not kid ourselves.

At least 98% with that style do not break into 4.5.

MEP is extremely rare. That is why he is famous.

Your best chances of breaking into, and winning, at the 4.5 level are with more conventional strokes, split-steps, solid overheads and volleys. There is most definitely a ceiling with the pusher style. Although MEP is not even a classical pusher since he posseses some devasting weapons: passing shots and accurate drop volleys.
I disagree. The easiest way to break into 4.5 is to be fast, athletic and play "one more ball" tennis.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Surprised this Boss of Atlanta guy got bumped to 5.0
He does not seem on the same level as Mark Sansait who is 4.5


But, BofA at 4.5 to 5.0 is yet more evidence that 3.0 to 4.0 players who are focusing on pronation, ISR, and other techo-jargon are totally missing the point of what makes a good tennis player.

that's because I doubt Mark S. is 4.5 At least not the garden variety 4.5. His record , at least per tennisrecord.com is pretty stellar.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I’m not saying that Sean wouldn’t have won if luck had swung a little in his direction.

But I would say fairly definitively, based on the 0.5 level gap, that Sean would be extremely unlikely to get that close to victory again if they played another 10 times.
I read somewhere that the competitive threshold is 6 games. If you win 6 or more games in two sets you surely wont get bumped down a level. Dood gassed hard and once your legs go your technique goes out the window. The Most Exhausting Player exhausted him in unrelenting fashion. :) I dont think luck would have helped but his strategy was solid.Very nice match.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Let me make few corrections for you
Sean said himself that when he plays some of the 4.5-non-USTA-league guys, where anyone that is not a current college player can participate, and where 4.5 is the highest level, and you cannot get bumped up or disqualified, and where it can be easily shown via looking up tennisrecord.com that some of those guys are high level 5.0-USTA, at his club he doesn’t stand a chance and that’s why he is a 4.0 level player. But that’s why it surprises me that Sean, who does not really play USTA league so for all his talk it is really, really hard to tell what his USTA level is, played this close to MEP who has a great record against 4.5-computer-ranked-USTA players in Atlanta.

Sean had a legitimate chance at winning this match in straight sets, which really surprised me because I’ve played Sean and he gets frustrated easily over off speed shots and slice and dice tennis.

I guess the guys at our club that are playing a non-USTA league level labeled 4.5 are more like USTA 5.0 level players, or at least the top singles guys are - which is not surprising as some are recent college graduate that won for-money open tournaments, as well as participated in qualifying tournament for ATP Challenger .
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Let me make few corrections for you


Well beings MEP has a 14-1 record against Atlanta 4.5 players then he must actually be 5.0 player so that would mean he would have no problems with the 4.5 club players I’m referring to.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Well beings MEP has a 14-1 record against Atlanta 4.5 players then he must actually be 5.0 player so that would mean he would have no problems with the 4.5 club players I’m referring to.
well, I've tried to take up on your proposed bet: @GSG vs _one of those 4.5 singles guys from your club/league_. But you apparently are unwilling to do that. You want @GCG to play _one (or perhaps two) particular guy from that league that is/are head and shoulders above the rest, as their record against other 4.5 players in the league shows.

So - which way is it? _one_ particular dude from your league? Or _any 4.5 singles player_ from your league?
 

GSG

Rookie
Well beings MEP has a 14-1 record against Atlanta 4.5 players then he must actually be 5.0 player so that would mean he would have no problems with the 4.5 club players I’m referring to.
well, I've tried to take up on your proposed bet: @GSG vs _one of those 4.5 singles guys from your club/league_. But you apparently are unwilling to do that. You want @GCG to play _one (or perhaps two) particular guy from that league that is/are head and shoulders above the rest, as their record against other 4.5 players in the league shows.

So - which way is it? _one_ particular dude from your league? Or _any 4.5 singles player_ from your league?
Once this gets worked out, someone tell me where and when to show up! :)
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Well beings MEP has a 14-1 record against Atlanta 4.5 players then he must actually be 5.0 player so that would mean he would have no problems with the 4.5 club players I’m referring to.
maybe let's restart the argument.
What is your actual point? that:
  1. @GSG is _not_ USTA 4.5 level player. That would be factually incorrect as one and only authority, USTA computer, says he is.
  2. 4.5 USTA players in Atlanta area are worse than 4.5 USTA players in M i d w e s t area? If that was the case wouldn't 4.5 teams from M i d w e s t do way better on National level than 4.5 teams from Atlanta - and there's no proof they do?
  3. Something else?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
well, I've tried to take up on your proposed bet: @GSG vs _one of those 4.5 singles guys from your club/league_. But you apparently are unwilling to do that. You want @GCG to play _one (or perhaps two) particular guy from that league that is/are head and shoulders above the rest, as their record against other 4.5 players in the league shows.

So - which way is it? _one_ particular dude from your league? Or _any 4.5 singles player_ from your league?
I said the singles player from my club. But like already mentioned the last match I saw him play he barely won in a 3rd set tiebreaker and was down match points. So he obviously isn’t the only strong player in this league. With a 14-1 record wouldn’t MEP be considered head and shoulders above the rest of the league?

But you can line up any match that you want I could care less because that’s your deal not mine. Sean backed up what I said also but you didn’t pay any attention to that.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
I said the singles player from my club. But like already mentioned the last match I saw him play he barely won in a 3rd set tiebreaker and was down match points. So he obviously isn’t the only strong player in this league. With a 14-1 record wouldn’t MEP be considered head and shoulders above the rest of the league?

But you can line up any match that you want I could care less because that’s your deal not mine. Sean backed up what I said also but you didn’t pay any attention to that.
there are _multiple players_ playing singles out of your club in that league. One is way, way above USTA 4.5 level - he is going to beat any USTA 4.5, MEP or not. Others - not so sure. Maybe it would be easier if you perhaps identified which player you want to take on @GSG . You could reference a particular match and line if you do not want to post a name.

As far as Sean's comment. I did pay attention to it. He for some reason also does not understand that 4.5 level _in that league of yours_ can, and do, have players that are way above USTA 4.5 level. Plus his club does not even have a team at 4.5 level in that league of yours so (nor a 4.5 USTA team that I can find) I'm not sure what he means by '4.5 players from his club'.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
for some perspective. I'm not sure if it is Chicagoland specific thing but many clubs participate in non-USTA leagues. Maybe it has something to do with having to play indoors, so there are already fees for home and away matches, and folks do not want to pay USTA fees on top of that. Or maybe because these leagues have so-called 4.5 level which means _anyone that is better than 4.0_,. There's no DQ, no bumping up because that is the highest level, at least for singles.

In addition to the league mentioned by @tlm there's also http://www.citatennis.net/ that is more popular in northwestern part of Chicago suburbs (as opposed to TLM's league that is southwestern suburbs). There's a team on that CITA league out of Lake Bluff that plays at that 4.5 level. I have not checked all of the players but a good majority of them are _computer rated 5.0 USTA players_. And that is perfectly fine in that league as there's no limit on how many such 5.0 USTA players can play in a given match. But it clearly means that you can't blindly say '4.5 player on my league beats your area 4.5 USTA level player therefore 4.5 USTA in my area is better than 4.5 USTA in your area.' It just makes no sense.
 

yossarian

Professional
Steve Kerr coach of the Warriors once said that the reason great players were not good coaches is that great players skipped steps. Jordon, Bird, etc went 1,4,6,9,10 so they are unable to explain steps 2,3,5,7,8 because they bypassed them. The same probably goes for some good great tennis players.
Steve Kerr played professional basketball
 
done. I'll have my agent talk to your agent so they can then consult respective lawyers and figure out the details. (y)
Interviewer: "How did you get the Bryan brothers to appear on your show?"

Will Hamilton [Fuzzy Yellow Balls]: "Well, my people talked to their people...'my people' being me."
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
for some perspective. I'm not sure if it is Chicagoland specific thing but many clubs participate in non-USTA leagues. Maybe it has something to do with having to play indoors, so there are already fees for home and away matches, and folks do not want to pay USTA fees on top of that. Or maybe because these leagues have so-called 4.5 level which means _anyone that is better than 4.0_,. There's no DQ, no bumping up because that is the highest level, at least for singles.

In addition to the league mentioned by @tlm there's also http://www.citatennis.net/ that is more popular in northwestern part of Chicago suburbs (as opposed to TLM's league that is southwestern suburbs). There's a team on that CITA league out of Lake Bluff that plays at that 4.5 level. I have not checked all of the players but a good majority of them are _computer rated 5.0 USTA players_. And that is perfectly fine in that league as there's no limit on how many such 5.0 USTA players can play in a given match. But it clearly means that you can't blindly say '4.5 player on my league beats your area 4.5 USTA level player therefore 4.5 USTA in my area is better than 4.5 USTA in your area.' It just makes no sense.

I guess the confusion is that the clubs Sean and I play at are not USTA so the ratings are off. We go by those players to get our ratings so if some of them are actually 5.0 level players we call them 4.5 level because that’s the level they play at.
We are both 4.0 level players and when we face some of the better alleged 4.5 guys we are overwhelmed by how good they are and that is what we are judging the 4.5 level by.
 
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