MEP vs ET Players - Original TT Epic

Who wins?

  • Ian to dish out bagel and a stick

    Votes: 9 9.1%
  • Ian Wins

    Votes: 43 43.4%
  • Ian just manages to win

    Votes: 22 22.2%
  • Green shirt teaches Ian a lesson

    Votes: 6 6.1%
  • Green shirt wins

    Votes: 13 13.1%
  • Green shirt shocks the tennis world

    Votes: 6 6.1%

  • Total voters
    99
  • Poll closed .

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
My god, what is so hard to understand? When you're playing with friends it has to be fun for both players. Slicing every forehand back into play is no fun. You must be the type of guy to hit aces against 10 year old beginner players and feel happy. You must be thinking "I'm playing my game and having fun, eff the person on the other side of the court". We are rec players here, remember that, fun is an important part of playing.
Perhaps we have different definitions of what "playing" is. Clearly you're talking about non-competitive, even cooperative hitting. I'm talking about competition where each player is trying their utmost to win. Both my opponents and I agree that what makes for a great match is both players pulling out all of the stops and making great shots and variety on both sides. I've never had an opponent remark that I sliced too much or that I attacked the net too much. Well, the immature ones do and by mutual agreement, we stop playing each other.

If I wanted a cooperative hit, I would expect my opponent would not DS or try to blast every ball for a winner or moonball. Most everything else is on the table. I would not mind if he sliced because I need to work on handling slices. If that's all he did on both wings, I'd make sure he wasn't my only hitting partner.

You have more stringent requirements for what makes a good hitting partner.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Slicing every forehand back into play is no fun. You must be the type of guy to hit aces against 10 year old beginner players and feel happy.
How is me slicing my FH to a peer akin to me acing a beginner? In the former case, I'm competing against an equally-skilled opponent: I should throw everything I have at him. In the latter case, I'm playing against a beginner: of course I should modify my play so that he can participate.
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
I agree. That may be why I don't have any "hitting partners."
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
Some people's desire for a fun hitting session is receiving every ball with the desired spin, location, bounce, speed, etc. Shots that fall outside this range are not encouraged.

I'm with you: I want to be challenged. I want to be put into uncomfortable situations. Better that I'm prepared for it by getting my butt kicked in practice than having to face it in a tournament.
 

drivera5

New User
My god, what is so hard to understand? When you're playing with friends it has to be fun for both players. Slicing every forehand back into play is no fun. You must be the type of guy to hit aces against 10 year old beginner players and feel happy. You must be thinking "I'm playing my game and having fun, eff the person on the other side of the court". We are rec players here, remember that, fun is an important part of playing.
If you cant have fun against an opponent that slices, that’s your problem, not your opponent’s. I enjoy the challenge of going up against different styles.
 

renarulz

New User
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
Agreed.. Getting comfortable being uncomfortable will make you a better tennis player..
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
So why doesn't Bertens realize this simple truth and change her serve? She has the resources and motivation to do it. Because she's definitely in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. It may not be "good" technique but it is certainly good enough to achieve results. Whether those results are good enough are up to the individual.
Because that’s not a waiter’s tray serve...
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
He doesnt want to be your hitting partner, he wants to take your soul...and then return to his suburban familial duties. hehehe If no score is kept they are not interested, I have seen these guys that are too injured to play their sport of choice (football, hockey, basketball) and they think "look at these wimpy tennis players, I will crush them for fun". It's cool but they will never make a dramatic change to their serve or whatever because they cant go through the pain of double faulting and giving up points and losing matches they would otherwise win in exchange for long-term improvement. This is the beauty of the topher forehand and him trying to do the "right things" like go for his put away overheads even if they are shakey at times. I cant tell if Topher is the greatest 4.0 that ever lived or that simply using a good top spin forehand with depth solves a lot of problems.
 
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dman72

Hall of Fame
He doesnt want to be your hitting partner, he wants to take your soul...and then return to his suburban familial duties. hehehe If no score is kept they are not interested, I have seen these guys that are too injured to play their sport of choice (football, hockey, basketball) and they think "look at these wimpy tennis players, I will crush them for fun". It's cool but they will never make a dramatic change to their serve or whatever because they cant go through the pain of double faulting and giving up points and losing matches they would otherwise win in exchange for long-term improvement. This is the beauty of the topher forehand and him trying to do the "right things" like go for his put away overheads even if they are shakey at times. I cant tell if Topher is the greatest 4.0 that ever lived or that simply using a good top spin forehand with depth solves a lot of problems.
Topher doesn't "look" like a 4.0 at all in the MEP video. He looks well into 4.5 between his forehand and backhand slice technique alone. I mean real 4.5, not internet tennis genius 4.5. I have videos of some of my own 4.0 hitting sessions with low to high level TR 4.0 players taken from the same vantage point as this match and I don't see technique like his.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
Of course ... you have been suppressing your Ben shots. It would be like coming out ... and with more cowbells. 8-B

A slice fight with Nav ends with Nav saying:

“That’s not a slice”.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Topher doesn't "look" like a 4.0 at all in the MEP video. He looks well into 4.5 between his forehand and backhand slice technique alone. I mean real 4.5, not internet tennis genius 4.5. I have videos of some of my own 4.0 hitting sessions with low to high level TR 4.0 players taken from the same vantage point as this match and I don't see technique like his.
Technique isn’t the limiting factor. I have two friends that are two of the best 4.0s in our city. Topher strokes look WAY better, and neither friend can hit winner pace off a neutral ball. But my guess ... Topher doesn’t get sets off of them, and doesn’t get to hit comfortable shots for the entire match.
 

onehandbh

Legend
@GSG, I think they way you hit the ball is very efficient and contrary to what one of the posters said, I think it is actually a technique and way of hitting that would do well as you get older because it is so efficient.

I've noticed that the older players are no longer hitting heavy topspin shots and big kick serves. Placement and efficient movement become more important.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
@GSG, I think they way you hit the ball is very efficient and contrary to what one of the posters said, I think it is actually a technique and way of hitting that would do well as you get older because it is so efficient.

I've noticed that the older players are no longer hitting heavy topspin shots and big kick serves. Placement and efficient movement become more important.
I agree 100%.
 

FiddlerDog

Professional
Topher doesn't "look" like a 4.0 at all in the MEP video. He looks well into 4.5 between his forehand and backhand slice technique alone.
Solid player, but Topher looks not like a 4.5
He slices a lot of neutral BHs, has an unreliable serve, and his FH is not particularly big.
He looks like a conventional 4.0 player.
Mark Sansait 4.5 hits twice as big as Topher.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
That is exactly how I felt as well until I stumbled upon the improvements required to keep long co-operative rallies going. It requires just as much focus as match play, and I find anything that takes up 100% of my focus to be fun. Maybe it'll stop being fun in the future, I don't know. If someone further along the tennis process cares to share, I'm all ears.
Btw, I've come to believe that this is not too uncommon a process for adult players. Start playing because you like the feeling of winning, and then fall in love with the complexities of the game that you discover as you try to become the best player you can be. I can't wait to see where the tennis journey leads you to, but I hope we don't have to wait until you reach the 90+ age group before you decide to add some topspin :p
Not sure what you are saying. IMO someone winning consistently at the 4.5 level in real matches knows the complexities of the game. He is not playing some out of shape rec players at the local school courts and smugly admiring his game.

As for topspin and collaborative hitting, I am 100% sure that if you asked GSG to hit to you in a certain spot over and over he would do it easily. You can see his control is excellent.

As for winners which some others (not you) have said makes real tennis, Ian talks about how one of GSG fav patterns is drawing his opponent in and then blasting a fh by him or lobbing him. He is hitting plenty of winners. People who cannot get past how he is hitting those winners are not paying attention.
 
One thing that really stood out to me with Topher was the double faults. Tactics is key. Knowing your opponent. There were some doubles on key points. Against GSG that is pointless. He wont be aggressive on the return so just tap it in if you are struggling. I love GSG attitude. He is willing to do whatever it takes to win.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Solid player, but Topher looks not like a 4.5
He slices a lot of neutral BHs, has an unreliable serve, and his FH is not particularly big.
He looks like a conventional 4.0 player.
Mark Sansait 4.5 hits twice as big as Topher.
At the end of the day, we are what our ratings say we are. It has nothing to do with how weak or how strong a certain stroke is.

Topher is 4.0. But given the right conditions and the right match-up, a 4.0 can take out a 4.5. That same 4.5 can turn around the next week, play much better, and take out a 5.0.

That’s how tennis works.
 

chetrbox

Rookie
@GSG, I think they way you hit the ball is very efficient and contrary to what one of the posters said, I think it is actually a technique and way of hitting that would do well as you get older because it is so efficient.

I've noticed that the older players are no longer hitting heavy topspin shots and big kick serves. Placement and efficient movement become more important.
I've thought about this some more, and you might be right. I was focused on how hard the retrieval style was on the knees, but I failed to account for the fact that MEP style technique is so much easier on the rest of the body (wrist, shoulders and hips). Since he'll have to do less retrieval in doubles, he might even be at an advantage. And in theory it should be easier for him to develop his net game as well since he's already used to punchy strokes. Curious to see if he can match his singles dominance at the 4.5 level in doubles as well.
 

chetrbox

Rookie
Not sure what you are saying. IMO someone winning consistently at the 4.5 level in real matches knows the complexities of the game. He is not playing some out of shape rec players at the local school courts and smugly admiring his game.
The complexities I was referring to are the technical details of the strokes, not match play tactics and strategy (like travlerajm mentioned, MEP has mastered this already in part because he never wasted any time pursuing more complex strokes). I don't know about you, but the serve and the one hand backhand were pretty complicated and tough to get right. They might have been the hardest things I learned to do 'correctly' as an adult. But as I pursued proper biomechanics in those strokes, I fell in love with the game even more. I'm now afraid to get into tennis equipment and strings because I'm sure that's another rabbit hole of complexity that will suck up a lot of time. Maybe MEP was wiser for keeping things simple.
Relevant xkcd:
 
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AnyPUG

Professional
At the end of the day, we are what our ratings say we are. It has nothing to do with how weak or how strong a certain stroke is.

Topher is 4.0. But given the right conditions and the right match-up, a 4.0 can take out a 4.5. That same 4.5 can turn around the next week, play much better, and take out a 5.0.

That’s how tennis works.
His strokes could be up for debate, but Topher playing his best tennis at 2-5 and to repeat at 4-5 in the third set appeared 6.0 in terms of mental strength to me.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
The complexities I was referring to are the technical details of the strokes, not match play tactics and strategy (like travlerajm mentioned, MEP has mastered this already in part because he never wasted any time pursuing more complex strokes). I don't know about you, but the serve and the one hand backhand are pretty complicated and tough to get right. They might have been the hardest things I learned to do 'correctly' as an adult. But as I pursued proper biomechanics in those strokes, I fell in love with the game even more. I'm afraid to get into tennis equipment and strings because I'm sure that's another rabbit hole of complexity that will suck up a lot of time. Maybe MEP was wiser for keeping things simple.
Relevant xkcd:
Look at Ian’s latest video on why MEP wins. Yes. A lot of rec players don’t keep it simple.

As for technique mastery being equated to complexity of the game, that is just one component. The other component is constantly playing in real pressure tournaments and figuring out many things. Both things are a never ending journey.

Plus for many rec players you might have to make choices. I for one spent a lot of time sneaking out at odd times just to improve my serve. However I could never make time commitments for a tournament because family comes first and tennis happens when I have some free time.

You coincidentally are one of the players on this forum who I always refer to when people seem to go on and on about the modern fh. You have one of the best fh I have seen in videos here and you were doing it in real game situations. To me there is a lot of value in that even if others tear your stroke down and dissect it ad nauseam because you were not hitting a real modern fh.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
@GSG, I think they way you hit the ball is very efficient and contrary to what one of the posters said, I think it is actually a technique and way of hitting that would do well as you get older because it is so efficient.

I've noticed that the older players are no longer hitting heavy topspin shots and big kick serves. Placement and efficient movement become more important.
The top 5 most important things in senior tennis:

1) legs
2) legs
3) legs
4) legs
5) don’t become dead 8-B

I think the difference in stroke efficiency (energy/effort) is minor compared to movement. I’ve been on a doubles court with three 70 year old friends and me the youngster at 60ish. I’ve known these friends since they were in their 40s. The difference in their strokes from the past are minimal. The ex-5.0 still hitting big ts FHs. It’s not the strokes that changed ... it’s foot speed and range of coverage. Two of us still hit kick serves, but senior shoulders definitely atrophy ... pretty much a waste of time (and injury risk) to try and hit big 1st serve pace. Most of us never had it to begin with ... no loss.

So to me ... say your trying to play 50-60+ singles, legs will determine much of the outcome. The ability to shorten points becomes very valuable, because old solutions of constant net pressure with speed not very effective. In the land of limited speed and range ... good drop shots are lethal. Also a good flat fh deep to a corner becomes a lot more effective ... because the side to side coverage is diminished. That is what I meant by @GSG finding his inner Stevie Johnson. I didn’t mean changing to a baseline banger ... but developing that fh pace to a corner to shorten points.

Also ... two different things playing your age group ... or playing younger players. It’s quite an accomplishment that Ben can win at 4.5 singles at 40 ... but that shelf life will reach it’s end soon with his current style. Playing in your age group ... just have to move better than the other old guy across the net.

I don’t think type of stroke is a major energy/efficiency thing. For example ... consider Topher hopping around the entire 3+ hour match vs Ben’s approach. There is the major difference... you won’t find many 60+ hoppers.8-B But that said ... I don’t think I buy the idea Ben’s arming strokes takes less energy than the torso/shoulder turn assisted strokes. Take the 1hbh slice for example. I find it the least effort compared to a fh drive or 1hbh drive. Effortless with shoulder turn and closed stance. Make me hit that more facing the net an a lot of arming, and I’m spending a lot more effort. On flattish moderate topspin fh with full shoulder turn ... also seems effortless. Upping pace, and particularly ts takes more energy ... no doubt.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
As for topspin and collaborative hitting, I am 100% sure that if you asked GSG to hit to you in a certain spot over and over he would do it easily. You can see his control is excellent.
The question is whether the other player can return the ball nice and easy back in play without having to get it at uncomfortable height which skids and spins away.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
The question is whether the other player can return the ball nice and easy back in play without having to get it at uncomfortable height which skids and spins away.
I am pretty sure if someone asks GSG to just give them good balls at a comfortable height he can do it over and over. Whether that would interest GSG or not is a different question.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
TLDR; MEP style tennis doesn't age well, and doesn't work well in doubles (i doubt even for MEP).
I brought this up before. The old farts I play with no longer play singles and I have to hunt for singles players. Given that doubles is my bread and butter, I don't see slices (on either side) succeeding even at the 4.0 level. on a regular basis. But I am told that GSG wins doubles matches too, and somebody volunteered to post a video but never did. I am also looking for a video where GSG is NOT partnered with a great player - a great partner can mask the problems of his lesser partner.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
One of the most important reasons people play tennis is to have fun, why would anyone prefer playing like MEP vs conventional strokes? It's no fun playing like MEP. Watching MEP was fun since it's a rare style, but some people are taking the wrong lessons from MEP. The lessons we should be taking away are: mental strength, patience, strategies, fitness and stamina, NOT his technique. If you like his technique, good for you, but suggesting more rec players should play like him misses a key point: people play to have fun and maybe hit a few winners like the pros once in a while, it's more satisfying.
I brought this up too, but not for myself. I mentioned that unless you are really as good as GSG, the GSG style will slowly cause your partners to avoid you with some excuse or the other. A regular league player may not care, as a captain will always like to bring on a winner, but a lesser GSG who does not have the kind of work which allows showing up at precise league match times and is reliant on the casual partner will not be able to find one eventually.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I would be happy to have a hitting partner like you. The first, second, third, fourth and fifth most important characteristics of a good hitting partner are... that the fvcking ball keeps coming back. Frankly, the more awkward the ball is to deal with when it arrives, the better. Dealing with these shots is how you improve (or stay sharp). Honestly, I read some of these comments and just scratch my head thinking, "Among other reasons, this is a big one as to why so many people don't play tennis well."
Unfortunately, most people are not like you. They want some protocols from hitting partners. First couple of shots in strike zone, then a little bit lateral running is OK, and a drop shot every 10 rallies or so may be acceptable. If they don't get this treatment, they will find an excuse to never play with you again!
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I am pretty sure if someone asks GSG to just give them good balls at a comfortable height he can do it over and over.
That is a great point. In fact, teaching pros can do this, but club players who can beat them often cannot. You will notice many teaching pros feeding and returning balls with a slightly open face and no topspin, directed precisely to where they want the ball to go. It starts off as a feeding requirement, and then becomes a skill of its own. I have seen ex-touring now teaching pros who can play with controlled FH and BH slices all the time like GSG against a lesser student to give him/her practice, while encouraging him to hit with topspin and then casually neutralizing it, and then all of a sudden come out with a massive topspin shot of their own!
 

AnyPUG

Professional
I am pretty sure if someone asks GSG to just give them good balls at a comfortable height he can do it over and over. Whether that would interest GSG or not is a different question.
Hitting at a comfortable height over and over - can he do that under real competitive pressure? Never seen that in any of the published match videos...

In case it wasn't obvious, I was just trolling
 
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mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Hitting at a comfortable height over and over - can he do that under real competitive pressure? Never seen that in any of the published match videos...

In case it wasn't obvious, I was just trolling
Sorry that went right over my head :)
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I brought this up before. The old farts I play with no longer play singles and I have to hunt for singles players. Given that doubles is my bread and butter, I don't see slices (on either side) succeeding even at the 4.0 level. on a regular basis. But I am told that GSG wins doubles matches too, and somebody volunteered to post a video but never did. I am also looking for a video where GSG is NOT partnered with a great player - a great partner can mask the problems of his lesser partner.
If you are saying slice ros does not work in 4.0 and 4.5 doubles ... I will take the opportunity to once again shoot down that myth. The best #1 4.5 doubles player that ever played on our team played ad court, and hit most bh ros with 1hbh slice. Lethal ... ex-D1, ex-5.0 ... feet would be moving early and he would carve sucker low over net towards doubles alley. He came in behind it ... gave him all kinds of time to close the net and as an opponent you didn't want him up there. What made it even more lethal was the fact he also had a low UE 1hbh drive ros that he threw in enough to keep server from just shading toward alley. When we went to 4.5 sectionals he didn't lose one #1 doubles match ... and there were many ringers there.

Doubles ROS tends to be the most troublesome migration for a singles specialist. The next is net play ... even as a S&V player doubles volley skills were a bit different, but overheads still overheads. A baseliner that never comes to net and plans on never playing net in doubles at best will be trying to win the hard way. Another big mental hurdle for a singles player that win by moving players around (dtl, side to side) find a more restricted targeting game in doubles
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
@GSG, I think they way you hit the ball is very efficient and contrary to what one of the posters said, I think it is actually a technique and way of hitting that would do well as you get older because it is so efficient.

I've noticed that the older players are no longer hitting heavy topspin shots and big kick serves. Placement and efficient movement become more important.
This is exactly what Brent Abel pointed out in his "Gold Ball Hunting" series on YT.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
That's a flawless game played by Scott there. He really didn't let GSG dictate anything and that's how you have to beat him playing traditional style. You have to be better (and consistent) at your game than him at his. There is a ceiling to what GSG can do with his style.
In fairness Scott is like the best 4.5 I have ever seen. It's pretty unlikely GSG can beat someone at their day job with 3.5 style strokes. Scott is a teaching pro no? This whole thing was a set up for GSG from the start - guys spend weeks training for some Atlanta rec player.. and they are teach tennis for a living? Unless GSG is related to Bo Jackson or something - athleticism isn't going to get him out of this kind of situation..

It's almost like when Brian Scalabrine played some pretty good "rec" players - including guys who played Div. I ball - and just clowned them.
 

curly_2350

New User
I think that's why Mark S. bought up the different regions NTRP thing. Mark beat Scott 4 and 2 in a "4.5" match, but it's really not like the 4.5 tennis from Tennis Troll's channel. I guess it's somewhat inevitable in any rating system where people don't mix enough. If everyone played everyone else randomly you could have a perfectly even consistent rating system (such as in online chess). But when people only play others in a 30km area it'll start to warp in each region. Same thing with men vs women on UTR. If they actually played each regularly sure it'd be easy to rank them against each other. But they don't, so you can't.
 

FIRETennis

Professional
In fairness Scott is like the best 4.5 I have ever seen. It's pretty unlikely GSG can beat someone at their day job with 3.5 style strokes. Scott is a teaching pro no? This whole thing was a set up for GSG from the start - guys spend weeks training for some Atlanta rec player.. and they are teach tennis for a living? Unless GSG is related to Bo Jackson or something - athleticism isn't going to get him out of this kind of situation..

It's almost like when Brian Scalabrine played some pretty good "rec" players - including guys who played Div. I ball - and just clowned them.
:-D

:-D
 

GuyClinch

Legend
My mistake. Possibly due to your repeated use of the word "garbage", which implies a lack of respect.
Garbage strokes - strokes. Dennis Rodman has garbage for an outside shot. Clearly he is not a garbage basketball player. Try to keep up. In a 100% technical sport like golf - this means you suck. But in more athletic contests - it doesn't matter nearly as much. Tons of HS players have far superior hoop shot form compared to pros. But because they can't jump over a car - its not going to matter - they aren't making the NBA.


OK. But isn't that kind of like saying if I lost weight, I'd weigh less? Isn't it more of a tautology than something that contains great insight?
No its like saying if someone weighed less they might be faster around the court. It's not supposed to be some great insight. It's pretty damn obvious to anyone who is not thick. If Ben had spent a couple years developing his serve - he would be much more of a challenge against guys like Scott, Topher, Tennis Troll, Boss of Atlanta, Female College prospects etc.


Maybe the serve is difficult enough to attack easily for the type of player that MEP typically faces. I know I'd have a tough time dealing with knee-height skidding serves. Can I return those? Yes. Can I dominate them? No.
It's not more difficult then a 110+ serve with good placement. And spare me the stories about how easy it is to return big serves. Not buying it.. Which is the consensus belief that Ben could hit with some effort.. Not saying that his current serve doesn't work - but just because something works - doesn't mean it couldn't be better if he had gone about things the normal way..

Again Ben dominates 4.5 league tennis despite his strokes not because of them.


So why doesn't Bertens realize this simple truth and change her serve? She has the resources and motivation to do it. Because she's definitely in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. It may not be "good" technique but it is certainly good enough to achieve results. Whether those results are good enough are up to the individual.
It's pretty good technique - not saying its totally wrong. Just an example of pro with slightly imperfect technique that is obvious to decent tennis players. She can't fix it because its ingrained in her muscle memory and she is busy making money playing tennis. She can't take off a year and fix it without throwing away income.
 

FIRETennis

Professional
Mark Sansait claims to be a 4.5 and he won fairly convincingly against Scott a few months ago
Sansait is playing verified 5.0 level (according to UTR matches).

Also, there is a world of a difference between two 4.5s in terms of style match ups as well as being at opposites spectrum of the 4.5 range.
Just because two same rated players are playing, doesn't mean it will be 7-6 6-7 7-6.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Scott strikes back for the modern topspin game. Pretty heavily as well, dude has serious shots.
He does hit hard. But not sure about topspin 'striking back'. MEP wins a lot of points by lobs and passing shots -and they are accurate topspin shots. So topspin never left the building, just the quality of it is the difference.
 

chazz

Rookie
GSG played this whole thing wrong. He should have made Ian fly out to Atlanta to play him. Ian had all the advantages in the world having GSG play him on a fast indoor court which GSG had hardly any experience at all playing on. Also after that marathon match with Topher GSG should have skipped playing Scott but in the end I don't think he used up too much energy because that match was over fast. If GSG loses to Ian which is what I expect happened it still doesn't take anything away from GSG as a player. Those who follow tennis know the extremely difficult situation GSG was placed in. Credit to him for doing that and having such a positive attitude.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I noticed the trash talk commentary from Mark and Ian suggesting that Atlanta 4.5 lower than Milwaukee 4.5.

I personally believe that GSG’s losses are more due court surface and indoor conditions than to regional level difference.

Scott extended me an invitation to visit the ET group. I hope to find a time to make the trip sometime soon to test out Mark’s theory.
 

FIRETennis

Professional
Good to know. All the match videos on Mark's channel refer to him as a 4.5 ; for eg: this one was from May 2nd 2021

Yeah, USTA rated 4.5 but USTA is slow and it's pretty difficult to move out of 4.5 (or maybe he appealed down even who knows).
UTR is more granular especially for players with a lot of matches.
 

Fairhit

Professional
I've liked the series so far but I think it is a little too gimmicky for me, GSG is a pretty good rec player, he doesn't have a conventional style of play and win a lot in his category but with all due respect, he's no match for guys at least one level above him, is nothing against GSG but is like there is a pretty good goalie in YouTube and some professional soccer player trained months in advance to see if he can win a shoot out, GSG is good but a level below almost everyone at ET, he gives a fight but he'll lose anyway.
 
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