MEP vs ET Players - Original TT Epic

Who wins?

  • Ian to dish out bagel and a stick

    Votes: 9 9.1%
  • Ian Wins

    Votes: 43 43.4%
  • Ian just manages to win

    Votes: 22 22.2%
  • Green shirt teaches Ian a lesson

    Votes: 6 6.1%
  • Green shirt wins

    Votes: 13 13.1%
  • Green shirt shocks the tennis world

    Votes: 6 6.1%

  • Total voters
    99
  • Poll closed .

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I don't think it's that black and white: I've seen 4.5s that had gears and tactics that 4.0s do not. And I've seen 5.0s that were smarter 4.5s.

Debating where "high" begins is relative: it's usually a level or two above the one giving the opinion.
Agree there is some overlap and it’s not 100%. But 5.0 and higher level players are so much more polished and complete players, it’s pretty obvious when watching them play.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Agree there is some overlap and it’s not 100%. But 5.0 and higher level players are so much more polished and complete players, it’s pretty obvious when watching them play.
I think a lot depends on the eye of the beholder. A pro or a beginner observing a 4.0, 4.5, & 5.0 might not see the dramatic differences that a 4.0, 4.5, & 5.0 see. The closer the observer is to the level being examined, the more sensitive he will be to small differences.

[edit]
Analogy: the distance between Chicago and Milwaukee is pretty big, right? Well, it depends. If you're looking at the two cities from the moon [ie a pro trying to distinguish between two rec players], there's a barely discernible difference. Or, if you're looking at a map of a particular block in either city [a beginner], you can't tell either. Someone looking at a map of Illinois and Wisconsin will see the difference most clearly.

it's a matter of scale: how far out or in you are zoomed will determine what you think of the distance between the two cities.
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
What this whole debate has lacked about focusing on technique versus focusing on really basic strokes and which will allow you to be a higher NTRP is that most people do a terrible job focusing on technique and/or copying the pros. They hardly practice new techniques they just try to replicate what they see. Hardly anyone really puts the work in to develop good technique. People also don't know what are just aesthetics versus fundamentals. There's tons and tons of rec players who think they're focused on technique yet are doing it horribly wrong. They go out and hit some balls with the new technique and think their stroke is magically fixed. They don't understand the long, long process of developing a new muscle memory. Working on a shot, isolated, for a month.

What you end up with is strokes lacking serious fundamentals. Like 4.0s with mostly pretty forward strokes but actually completely skip a unit turn and are late with their take back everytime resulting in them having to back up to give them enough time. It's hard to watch. Many, many rec players also can't get a proper throwing motion going in their serve. I've helped people fix this many times but most aren't willing to put the effort in (many lessons where we work only on that). Most people don't want that kind of lesson but they're not honest with themselves.

The rec world needs more people focused on fundamentals. Proper unit turn, proper preparation, proper balance, proper grips, proper loading, using big muscles. It's not as sexy, I get it. People love to listen to these quick fixes or high level tips and skip the rest.

I don't think I'm on either side of this argument, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Tennis is a leg sport. MEP is proof of that. People should strive to work on their fundamentals. Most people won't have the athletic ability to get where MEP is because his legs are what make the difference. His athletic background has given him excellent footwork that others won't have unless they played other sports at a high level. Learn from MEP that he actually has pretty good fundamentals in the footwork, balance and preparation standpoint. Incorporate those into your game as well as proper stroke fundamentals (which MEP lacks on his forehand & backhand slice, serve, overhead and volleys). Forget copying the pros. This applies to adult rec players around 2.5-4.0.
“fundamentals in the footwork, balance and preparation standpoint”

Got any vids? I seriously doubt that can be taught. You either have it or you dont. Sure fuzzy yellow balls had the french guy with some footwork vid but I am talking about vids that actually work.

Anyhow my fundamentals are way better than MEP. But i would easily trade them in for his wheels and mental game. From the baseline he would kill me.

And do you have a vid on prep? I have been told i prep late and wait till the ball lands to unit turn blah blah blah. I spent a whole hitting session just prepping as soon as i could trying to have it done before the bounce. Sometimes even was ready before the rally started. It was some of the worst hitting ever. Same with the “stand further behind the baseline” advice.
 

zipplock

Hall of Fame
I don't think it's that black and white: I've seen 4.5s that had gears and tactics that 4.0s do not. And I've seen 5.0s that were smarter 4.5s.

Debating where "high" begins is relative: it's usually a level or two above the one giving the opinion.
Of course there are always exceptions and true, things are rarely if ever just black and white. My point is that, on average, my experience is that the separation between 4.0 and 4.5 is not usually shot making ability, but rather decision making. Once you jump to 5.0+ those players generally have better overall shot skills and decision making process. Again, always exceptions.
Your comment about high being relative is also likely true. I am a 4.0. I can have competitive matches against 4.5 players. Playing against a 5.0 I am struggling to get a single game, so for me, high starts at 5.0.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Maybe the simplicity of his technique is the main factor.
If he was losing with ‘proper’ topspin strokes but moving exactly the same, probably no one would mention his athleticism.
May very well be. But there are lots of players with "simple technique" and they are nowhere near his execution level. And many players try to learn the classical technique because they can't execute like him with simple technique.
 
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FiddlerDog

Professional
ATP 300 is just smarter ATP 1000. High level doesn't start till ATP 50. This is very easy to see when watching ATP 50 play. They have gears/tactics ATP 300 just don't have.
 
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Clash Ah ah

Rookie
Also, how do you account for small women having decent serves? Think Yulia Putintseva stands at 5’4 and has a good serve. She also has a great drop shot and feel. She doesn’t have long limbs, obviously.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Just his ability to play 3 sets shows athleticism. What are you talking about?

And see how much ground he covers to retrieve balls.
That’s just stamina, mate!
Not really - how much ground you can cover and how quickly would be athleticism. Stamina would be how often you can do it without being tired. GSG clearly has both. But take away the stamina advantage by playing indoors and 4.0s beat him.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
The MEP approach results in higher NTRP rating (i.e., higher rate of winning points). However, the alternative and apparently more common approach of focusing on stroke technique and style points results in higher TT rating (i.e., better at ‘proper tennis’).
If that is the case how come almost no other 4.5s playing like MEP? I grow tired of the hacker collusion. Proper technique crushed the hacker. It's over. Remember Tennis Troll BEAT MEP! 50 year old man beat him! 4.0 Doctor Topher BEAT HIM. Ian BEAT him. Scott BEAT him.

If the 'advantage' of hacker technique is that you lose anytime the cameras are on - I think most people are going to take a pass.. Maybe solid technique can take real pressure..
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
If that is the case how come almost no other 4.5s playing like MEP? I grow tired of the hacker collusion. Proper technique crushed the hacker. It's over. Remember Tennis Troll BEAT MEP! 50 year old man beat him! 4.0 Doctor Topher BEAT HIM. Ian BEAT him. Scott BEAT him.

If the 'advantage' of hacker technique is that you lose anytime the cameras are on - I think most people are going to take a pass.. Maybe solid technique can take real pressure..
But the real question is how worse would GSG have fared if he played like other recreational players, i.e.., playing as taught in lessons. You have to compare GSGs in two parallel universes.
 

tenezlove

New User
This series and matchup was riveting to watch. As someone relatively new to tennis who plays in 3.5 USTA leagues, I have my own stories of playing "pushers". I assumed that pushers would not be successful beyond 3.5 which was pretty much conventional wisdom. It was amazing to watch MEP win at 4.5. I know many tennis pros who play in 4.0 leagues around here, so it is truly amazing that a self taught player could be so effective.

It was also instructive to see that the techniques that are supposed to be used against a "pusher style" (patience, finish at the net, respect pushers, etc) actually do work though it is obviously easier said than done.

Questioning MEP's ratings or influence of outdoor vs indoor are really nonsequitors. He has a successful record at 4.5 which most USTA players (including me) will never reach. Anyone who plays outdoors and indoor knows that there are tons of differences and it is conceivable that it advantages one side over the other.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
But the real question is how worse would GSG have fared if he played like other recreational players, i.e.., playing as taught in lessons. You have to compare GSGs in two parallel universes.
Exactly. But people don't consider this. They just assume that they can take out one part of someone's game and substitute in another without consideration on the effect it will have on the whole. Sort of like comparing rearranging the living room furniture with doing open heart surgery.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
This series and matchup was riveting to watch. As someone relatively new to tennis who plays in 3.5 USTA leagues, I have my own stories of playing "pushers". I assumed that pushers would not be successful beyond 3.5 which was pretty much conventional wisdom. It was amazing to watch MEP win at 4.5. I know many tennis pros who play in 4.0 leagues around here, so it is truly amazing that a self taught player could be so effective.

It was also instructive to see that the techniques that are supposed to be used against a "pusher style" (patience, finish at the net, respect pushers, etc) actually do work though it is obviously easier said than done.

Questioning MEP's ratings or influence of outdoor vs indoor are really nonsequitors. He has a successful record at 4.5 which most USTA players (including me) will never reach. Anyone who plays outdoors and indoor knows that there are tons of differences and it is conceivable that it advantages one side over the other.
Which simply shows, IMO, how varied the game is and how there are many ways to play it.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Which simply shows, IMO, how varied the game is and how there are many ways to play it.
Not at the competitive junior, college or higher levels. There is only the occasional Santoro (retired) and Su-Wei (already a veteran) who are somewhat successful and even they don't win any majors.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Even then, I don't see many different ways of playing the game and the variety that you claimed. It is the GSG style of exclusive use of forehand and backhand slices and punts vs the more common way of playing. Just 2 styles.
- S&V
- pusher
- slicer/junkballer
- moonballer
- grinder
- counterpuncher
- all-courter
- first strike

I'd argue that as players get better, the more these styles tend to disappear as separate entities and the more the elements get absorbed into the players' overall skill sets.
 

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
“fundamentals in the footwork, balance and preparation standpoint”

Got any vids? I seriously doubt that can be taught. You either have it or you dont. Sure fuzzy yellow balls had the french guy with some footwork vid but I am talking about vids that actually work.

Anyhow my fundamentals are way better than MEP. But i would easily trade them in for his wheels and mental game. From the baseline he would kill me.

And do you have a vid on prep? I have been told i prep late and wait till the ball lands to unit turn blah blah blah. I spent a whole hitting session just prepping as soon as i could trying to have it done before the bounce. Sometimes even was ready before the rally started. It was some of the worst hitting ever. Same with the “stand further behind the baseline” advice.
You can't teach footwork, balance or preparation? That's a new one on me. Taught those all the time to my students (back when I was a coach) with great success, especially some elite juniors.

You might be one of the many people that think they can be taught by just watching a video. I've seen a lot of types that just feed on tennis tips but never really engrain it in muscle memory, they try it for 10 minutes and think the footwork/stroke whatever is fixed. Just knowing something is half the battle, there's a gulf between knowing and doing on a tennis court. That's sometimes where a (good) coach comes in.

I used to do a cardio tennis class, I think that was great for adult rec players footwork. Unfortunately at times I was seen as a little bit of a task master in that class. It's a very delicate situation to teach some non-athletic adult rec players. Being someone that was pushed very hard by my coaches I had to learn that as a coach. A lot of older rec players have limitations that don't allow them to move very well. If that's the case then overcoming those limitations may be the first step. Or maybe they can't be overcome but there's still ways to get better in increments.

Getting better at footwork is more about doing than knowing is my biggest point. Most people dont want to practice it because it's too much work, they're their to have fun with the very little time they have outside of work. I get it. Different strokes. Most people also just want a lesson where they get to hit every type of shot and get some boilerplate tips (it's fun and it's the equivalent of a practice session but it wont get your game better long term). I could go into more detail about how to get better footwork, but it's really not all that complicated and I'm sure there's plenty of videos online. I like a ladder for getting better at small steps.

For racquet prep I generally taught that two different ways. Simplified version for beginners with just one step. Two steps for more advanced players (stalking phase and racquet back phase). I learned mostly from Tennisplayer.net (John Yandell) not Youtube videos. I tried to create progressions for these things and explain it as simply as possible (no biomechanics terms). Changing a stroke is a sales process, have to sell the person on how it improves their game (I found that quite fun and easy because I knew it would have massive improvements on their game). I can't sell people the same way on here which is fine (showing someone is leagues and leagues further apart than telling them), this place is sometimes more like an auction where the highest bidder (best advice) is whoever fits the OPs bias the best.

For you, Shroud, it could be that changing your racquet prep killed your stretch shorten cycle. That's why theres a stalking phase and right when the ball hits the court on your side you coil. If you stretch the muscles by coiling too early you lose all the power. Hard to say really but it's my best guess. You like many others on this forum will probably not find the answers your seeking on this forum. Because the answer to your question lies in actually practicing the technique and having someone qualified walk you through any questions you have. You'll have to be sold on why it makes your game better and that AHA moment will hit you so hard and your face will light up (one of the great joys of being a coach is seeing this). Having good racquet prep will undoubtedly improve your game.

Also you stated you only gave it one hitting session. Even if you're doing the technique right it will mess up your timing and, yes, you'll have a terrible hitting session. You can't change a technique in a hitting session. Rent a ball machine at a club and just isolate the shot. It will require weeks of practice, thousands of shots. When all said and done the transformation will amaze you. Much better than instant gratification, enjoy the process.

Here's a good video on racquet prep, similar to how I used break it down as a coach, I even used video analysis on my phone:

 

AnyPUG

Professional
Even then, I don't see many different ways of playing the game and the variety that you claimed. It is the GSG style of exclusive use of forehand and backhand slices and punts vs the more common way of playing. Just 2 styles.
3 variations for shots - topspin, backspin, no-spin
3 variations for fighting mode - offense, defense, neutral
3 variations of court positioning - baseline, net, both/all-court
3 variations of wing preference - fh, bh and neutral

In addition, you have degree of spin, fighting mode (more spin and more offense, less spin and neutral fighting mode), court positioning and wing preference.
If you put them together, you have lots of combinations(at least 81) and many more with varying degrees of different parameters to choose from.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
- S&V
- pusher
- slicer/junkballer
- moonballer
- grinder
- counterpuncher
- all-courter
- first strike

I'd argue that as players get better, the more these styles tend to disappear as separate entities and the more the elements get absorbed into the players' overall skill sets.
OK S&V and baseliner are the major styles. I did not mean pro-level style differences. I meant orthodox vs unorthodox styles. S&V and baseliner and all-court are all orthodox styles. Repeatedly tapping the ball back with small slices to elicit an unforced error is unorthodox. I don't see varieties in the unorthodox style. Lobs and drop shots are not unorthodox. Neither is a dinky serve.
 

GSG

Rookie
If that is the case how come almost no other 4.5s playing like MEP? I grow tired of the hacker collusion. Proper technique crushed the hacker. It's over. Remember Tennis Troll BEAT MEP! 50 year old man beat him! 4.0 Doctor Topher BEAT HIM. Ian BEAT him. Scott BEAT him.

If the 'advantage' of hacker technique is that you lose anytime the cameras are on - I think most people are going to take a pass.. Maybe solid technique can take real pressure..
Just wondering, if/when I avenge losses that you mentioned here, what will you have to say then?
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Just wondering, if/when I avenge losses that you mentioned here, what will you have to say then?
I think you will easily win in ATL. It's very obvious that conditions matter more in tennis then we imagined. I couldn't really put my finger on how your poor performance vs. the ET guys compared with your incredible 4.5 record in ATL.

I remember how tennis troll talked about how he couldn't get people from the far side of ATL to play you. Might bet is that these guys on his squad simply don't want to do it. I been watching some of the other players like Wannabe Pro and the rest - and these guys likely won't touch you. They will duck out of it.

It's all clear to me now. No one can take the heat of ATL summers vs your game. In fact I bet few people want to play you.

The metaphysical question is - if you can only win at 4.5 in lousy ATL humid heat? Are you really a 4.5? Keep in mind you almost always win at 4.5 in the brutal conditions. Since you almost always win by the numbers absolutely you are.. In fact with your game the only way that "4.5s' beat you there is if they are really 5.0s who are not uprated yet - who can outclass you so much they can win with minimal effort. Your like one loss at (in recent play) 4.5 was probably on some unusually cool day.

But take that same game indoors in a cooler place - and you lose to garden variety 4.0s. Topher's game is nothing special.

It's a weird place. OTOH maybe you would be even better in ATL if they actually had some clay. In my mind you are basically exploiting the home field advantage with superior stamina and will. That's great with regards to winning - but its not a formula for normal rec players. Most are like Wannabe Pro - they lack the will and look to have a good time. It's like the people that like to run ultra marathons. They might like it - most people are going to pass.

I don't know if there are many 4.5s 40+ in ATL - but they actually have an advantage there. Why? They play the 40+ leagues in cooler months in many places.. Will that outweigh the old age factor? And the lack of fitness of the older guys? I can't really forecast it.. You should do it. But the secret is clear now - you have turned tennis into a fitness contest - and when that happens you almost always win.

When guys like Ian or Scott or Topher - make it about skill - you lose. It's really the classic pusher technique taken to levels we rarely see!
 
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FiddlerDog

Professional
@GSG realize you are engaging and getting advice from a 3.5 player who has been stuck at 3.5 for decades.
A 3.5 player literally does not understand how tennis works,
yet is a self-proclaimed expert and has the most to say about everyone's tennis game.
Dunning-Kreuger at its finest. Carry on.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
I think you will easily win in ATL. It's very obvious that conditions matter more in tennis then we imagined. I couldn't really put my finger on how your poor performance vs. the ET guys compared with your incredible 4.5 record in ATL.
..
When guys like Ian or Scott or Topher - make it about skill - you lose. It's really the classic pusher technique taken to levels we rarely see!
Though folks may find the content, assumptions, and factual claims debatable, the patient and passionate arguments you make here are worthy of recognition.

 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I think you will easily win in ATL. It's very obvious that conditions matter more in tennis then we imagined. I couldn't really put my finger on how your poor performance vs. the ET guys compared with your incredible 4.5 record in ATL.
Is that the "Royal" we [as in, "we are not amused"]? Because I certainly understood the impact of conditions.

I remember how tennis troll talked about how he couldn't get people from the far side of ATL to play you. Might bet is that these guys on his squad simply don't want to do it. I been watching some of the other players like Wannabe Pro and the rest - and these guys likely won't touch you. They will duck out of it.
Perhaps. But you're basing that on projecting your own attitude, not on any actual evidence from said players, right?

I would jump at the chance to play him, precisely because I know how challenging that style can be. Would I want him as my only opponent? No. But then again, I wouldn't want any of my current opponents to be my only opponent.

It's all clear to me now. No one can take the heat of ATL summers vs your game. In fact I bet few people want to play you.
Not even the people who regularly play in ATL summers?

The metaphysical question is - if you can only win at 4.5 in lousy ATL humid heat? Are you really a 4.5? Keep in mind you almost always win at 4.5 in the brutal conditions. Since you almost always win by the numbers absolutely you are.. In fact with your game the only way that "4.5s' beat you there is if they are really 5.0s who are not uprated yet - who can outclass you so much they can win with minimal effort. Your like one loss at (in recent play) 4.5 was probably on some unusually cool day.
Splitting hairs, IMO. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Slow courts and ATL summers benefit GSG [or maybe it would be more accurate to say that they penalize his opponents more]. No one can be expected to perform equally well with every stroke under every condition.

If I can only win at 4.5 by attacking the net, am I really a 4.5? If I can only win by serving big and hitting a huge FH, am I really a 4.5? It's a rhetorical question: of course I am. It doesn't mean that I'm equally skilled at every aspect.

But take that same game indoors in a cooler place - and you lose to garden variety 4.0s. Topher's game is nothing special.
I'm sure if GSG won, you'd have a different opinion of Topher's game.

"Garden variety"? I thought it was mentioned he was a borderline 4.5. His game didn't look to me like "garden variety" 4.0. As a mid-4.5, I should be able to waltz in and double bagel him, if that were true, and I don't see being able to do that.

And yes, GSG didn't have the advantages that he'd have outdoors in ATL summertime. No argument there.

It's a weird place. OTOH maybe you would be even better in ATL if they actually had some clay. In my mind you are basically exploiting the home field advantage with superior stamina and will. That's great with regards to winning - but its not a formula for normal rec players. Most are like Wannabe Pro - they lack the will and look to have a good time. It's like the people that like to run ultra marathons. They might like it - most people are going to pass.
How is it exploiting home field advantage when he's playing in an ATL league? [I'm counting all of his opponents, not just the ET crew.]

If he has superior stamina and will, shouldn't he be trying to utilize those to his best advantage? Are you advocating he adopt a style that minimizes his advantages? Don't you try to exploit your advantages?

If you don't like ultra marathons, then don't enter a race. But if you like playing tennis, you will run into all kinds of different opponents.

I don't know if there are many 4.5s 40+ in ATL - but they actually have an advantage there. Why? They play the 40+ leagues in cooler months in many places.. Will that outweigh the old age factor? And the lack of fitness of the older guys? I can't really forecast it.. You should do it.

When guys like Ian or Scott or Topher - make it about skill - you lose. It's really the classic pusher technique taken to levels we rarely see!
Every match is about skill, not just those where GSG lost. I guess you consider GSG's strengths as not about skill.

But the secret is clear now - you have turned tennis into a fitness contest - and when that happens you almost always win.
You're writing that as if he's cheating. Anyone can attempt to do what he did. And his opponents have to deal with it, just like a big server or massive TSer or a ball basher.
 
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Deleted member 780836

Guest
a
@GSG realize you are engaging and getting advice from a 3.5 player who has been stuck at 3.5 for decades.
A 3.5 player literally does not understand how tennis works,
yet is a self-proclaimed expert and has the most to say about everyone's tennis game.
Dunning-Kreuger at its finest. Carry on.
What is wrong if a 3.5 has thoughts on a 4.5s game? He's not allowed to comment if he's not the same level? Why do you think pro players have coaches who can barely play? There's a lot they can offer, you can study the game and offer advice without being able to demonstrate it. Rick Macci probably can't even beat a 3.5 player, yet he is one of the greatest coaches even now.
Why don't you refute his arguments instead of starting personal attacks? He does not even talk about his game, why do you bring that in and mention "Dunning-Kreuger "? You like to throw around words without knowing what they mean.
Your worship of Ian and GSG is getting weirder with time. You behave like a cult member, every criticism is seen as an attack, you change goal posts with your arguments and feel like you proved a point.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
@GSG realize you are engaging and getting advice from a 3.5 player who has been stuck at 3.5 for decades.
A 3.5 player literally does not understand how tennis works,
yet is a self-proclaimed expert and has the most to say about everyone's tennis game.
Dunning-Kreuger at its finest. Carry on.
I don't think that's quite accurate. For one, surely GSG is not taking advice from Guy.

The other is that Guy is not claiming that he's an expert; he's just offering criticism [incorrect, IMO, but everyone has an opinion].

However, most of his criticism is destructive and offers no suggestions for improvement [other than "play the normal way"].
 
D

Deleted member 780836

Guest
Splitting hairs, IMO. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Slow courts and ATL summers benefit GSG [or maybe it would be more accurate to say that they penalize his opponents more]. No one can be expected to perform equally well with every stroke under every condition.

If I can only win at 4.5 by attacking the net, am I really a 4.5? If I can only win by serving big and hitting a huge FH, am I really a 4.5? It's a rhetorical question: of course I am. It doesn't mean that I'm equally skilled at every aspect.
You're comparing 2 different things. GSG's condition advantage vs a style (eg- s&v).
he's just offering criticism [incorrect, IMO, but everyone has an opinion].
You basically said GSG benefits from slow courts and ATL summer, sounds more like you don't like that fact than not agreeing with it. Guy was saying GSG's stamina advantage goes away in cooler conditions and indoor. Is that wrong? Hint: nope, GSG himself said he plays better on slower outdoor courts with elements.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
You're comparing 2 different things. GSG's condition advantage vs a style (eg- s&v).
True. But I've had the same criticism leveled at me and my S&V/net-centric game ["I can't get any rhythm", etc.].


If I spend the time developing my net game and win with it, how is that different than GSG developing his conditioning? Unless it was inherent and he didn't have to work for it. And even then, I wouldn't criticize an opponent for winning with it.

You basically said GSG benefits from slow courts and ATL summer, sounds more like you don't like that fact than not agreeing with it. Guy was saying GSG's stamina advantage goes away in cooler conditions and indoor. Is that wrong? Hint: nope, GSG himself said he plays better on slower outdoor courts with elements.
I was talking about all of the arguments Guy has made, not just the one about stamina. On that point, we agree. Certain conditions favor GSG which means other conditions do not. But I give GSG a lot more credit for his achievements than Guy does.
 
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Deleted member 780836

Guest
If I spend the time developing my net game and win with it, how is that different than GSG developing his conditioning?
I said "conditon advantage" ie outdoor+atl summer. You working on your net game and winning is different from GSG winning under certain physical conditions that favour him ie outdoor slow hard court+atl elements.
But I give GSG a lot more credit for his achievements than Guy does.
So do I! But that alone doesn't make Guy's claims invalid. If he doesn't offer suggestions for improvement that doesn't make his arguments any less valid.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Guy "But the secret is clear now - you have turned tennis into a fitness contest - and when that happens you almost always win"
You're writing that as if he's cheating. Anyone can attempt to do what he did. And his opponents have to deal with it, just like a big server or massive TSer or a ball basher.
It's Guy's response to what he will say if MEP beats the guys he has lost before. Guy thinks MEP will always loose to 4.0+ players with "superior technique" under "normal weather" conditions. The only way MEP can win is by turning tennis match into a fitness contest. Since MEP does not play real tennis, he can't win against real tennis players in real weather conditions!
Guy is very smart and has come up with a long term winning formula to discount anything MEP does. What will Guy say if MEP starts playing real tennis and still wins? The players are scarred by the thought of unreal tennis and fitness contest and lost because they didn't think they were playing real tennis. Guy is a genius and I want to hire him as my apologist to sell fallacies.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I said "conditon advantage" ie outdoor+atl summer. You working on your net game and winning is different from GSG winning under certain physical conditions that favour him ie outdoor slow hard court+atl elements.
I don't think they are as different as you. if I recognize my skills are weighted towards the net and I develop them, how is that so different from GSG recognizing his physical advantage and developing that? He didn't have to get into good shape. And optimizing his strengths towards the conditions he most often plays under seems smart to me.

So do I! But that alone doesn't make Guy's claims invalid. If he doesn't offer suggestions for improvement that doesn't make his arguments any less valid.
Looking at all of Guy's comments from the beginning, most of them seemed to be like sour grapes, not rational arguments, like referring to GSG's style as "garbage". In fact, most of his arguments seem to support Ben's answer to Ian's question of why Ben seemed to trigger such a response among certain people: ["paraphrasing] Some people have spent a lot of time and money on lessons to improve and they've failed to achieve their goals for whatever reason and they're frustrated."
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
It's Guy's response to what he will say if MEP beats the guys he has lost before. Guy thinks MEP will always loose to 4.0+ players with "superior technique" under "normal weather" conditions. The only way MEP can win is by turning tennis match into a fitness contest. Since MEP does not play real tennis, he can't win against real tennis players in real weather conditions!
Guy is very smart and has come up with a long term winning formula to discount anything MEP does. What will Guy say if MEP starts playing real tennis and still wins? The players are scarred by the thought of unreal tennis and fitness contest and lost because they didn't think they were playing real tennis. Guy is a genius and I want to hire him as my apologist to sell fallacies.
It's a classic no-win situation: if MEP wins, it's because his opponents had no skill. Any opponent that has skill will beat MEP.

["When guys like Ian or Scott or Topher - make it about skill - you lose."]
 
D

Deleted member 780836

Guest
It's a classic no-win situation: if MEP wins, it's because his opponents had no skill. Any opponent that has skill will beat MEP.

["When guys like Ian or Scott or Topher - make it about skill - you lose."]
Likewise, if MEP loses in ET: conditions, racket weight, indoor, lack of atl sun etc etc. If he wins: see MEP technique is superior, everyone should start adopting MEP technique and abandon traditional play. If anyone questions that thought process...do you have results even close to MEP? If not you shouldn't question his technique!
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Is that the "Royal" we [as in, "we are not amused"]? Because I certainly understood the impact of conditions.



Perhaps. But you're basing that on projecting your own attitude, not on any actual evidence from said players, right?
Did you watch the match with the coed? She looked entirely miserable after her victory and kinda ticked off at her coach. LMAO. But GSG has stated numerous times that he wins driving the will out of people. Which again is a perfectly valid way to win. Kudos to him.

I would jump at the chance to play him, precisely because I know how challenging that style can be. Would I want him as my only opponent? No. But then again, I wouldn't want any of my current opponents to be my only opponent.
Yes. Net players like to play GSG - doesn't hit a great passing shot unless you hit it to him with pace and hits a lot of balls that can be volleyed effectively. If you are good at overheads like Ian - its a great strategy. It is also - at least for you - an energy reduction tactic. Perfect for playing a pusher. This hardly means that the 40 and under young 4.5 crowd would enjoy playing him.

Did you watch say this match?


In your heart of hearts do you think these guys would enjoy playing MEP in the ATL sun?!


Not even the people who regularly play in ATL summers?
People who play regularly in ATL summers probably have to do it - for the league. They don't want to do it.


Splitting hairs, IMO. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Slow courts and ATL summers benefit GSG [or maybe it would be more accurate to say that they penalize his opponents more]. No one can be expected to perform equally well with every stroke under every condition.
I would have said so in the past - but clearly I was wrong. I would NEVER have predicted that any legit 4.5 would lose to a 4.0 because of conditions. But here we are..

"Garden variety"? I thought it was mentioned he was a borderline 4.5. His game didn't look to me like "garden variety" 4.0. As a mid-4.5, I should be able to waltz in and double bagel him, if that were true, and I don't see being able to do that.
Really? What was special about Topher's game compared to an average 4.0? His serve wasn't outstanding. His strokes are not outstanding. His movement and athleticism were not outstanding. He isn't particularly tall or strong. Very ordinary - that's not bad - its just get this "garden variety".


And yes, GSG didn't have the advantages that he'd have outdoors in ATL summertime. No argument there.
Turns out this is an .5 NTRP advantage. Who knew..


How is it exploiting home field advantage when he's playing in an ATL league? [I'm counting all of his opponents, not just the ET crew.
You have a habit of taking out negative connotations of words. Stop. If you play a slow guy you take exploit his lack of speed. If you play a short guy you take exploit his lack of height. Etc etc.

If he has superior stamina and will, shouldn't he be trying to utilize those to his best advantage? Are you advocating he adopt a style that minimizes his advantages? Don't you try to exploit your advantages?
umm yeah. See above.

If you don't like ultra marathons, then don't enter a race. But if you like playing tennis, you will run into all kinds of different opponents.
What is your point? No one is denying any of this..


Every match is about skill, not just those where GSG lost. I guess you consider GSG's strengths as not about skill.
Nonsensical. If some retires in a match vs another player because of injury - was that match about skill? You are just trying to be contrarian here without thinking.


You're writing that as if he's cheating. Anyone can attempt to do what he did. And his opponents have to deal with it, just like a big server or massive TSer or a ball basher.
I have never said he was cheating. You reading a lot into it. GSG was interesting because I didn't see how he won all those matches vs. 4.5s with his game. I didn't understand why he struggled so much with video 4.5s and such either. Its not at all like cheating. I don't think Reggie Miller running guys off 4 picks to get a clean look at a jumper is cheating. It was exploiting a fitness advantage.

GSG has cleared that up - explaining how he breaks guys down and is totally deserving of his MEP moniker.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
I don't think that's quite accurate. For one, surely GSG is not taking advice from Guy.

The other is that Guy is not claiming that he's an expert; he's just offering criticism [incorrect, IMO, but everyone has an opinion].

However, most of his criticism is destructive and offers no suggestions for improvement [other than "play the normal way"].
I don't think I am criticizing GSG at all - I am making commentary. There is a difference. GSG vs. ET guys is a tennis event. Just the way the Bucs vs. the Chiefs was. Why did the Chiefs lose? Was in the defense, offense, home feel advantage etc. In an event like this is fun to predict what will happen - what did happen and what would happen if they played again..

What I am critical of is the idea that GSG technique is a good path forward for regular tennis players and that we should all adopt his hacker technique no matter what our personal strengths and weaknesses are.. And that if you did this you would be better then - I dunno taking lessons and staying healthy..
 

FiddlerDog

Professional
Only on the internet can an incompetent 3.5 tell a higher rated player that his path forward is wrong.
Someone who basically has no idea how tennis works, is offering commentary. Caveat Emptor!
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Likewise, if MEP loses in ET: conditions, racket weight, indoor, lack of atl sun etc etc. If he wins: see MEP technique is superior, everyone should start adopting MEP technique and abandon traditional play. If anyone questions that thought process...do you have results even close to MEP? If not you shouldn't question his technique!
Those are factors but not even MEP himself emphasized them. He instead congratulated Topher on his excellent win.

Also, I never advocated MEP's style because he wins. I did point out that those who were trashing his style were overlooking some of the benefits. I even went so far as to say that if I was teaching a beginner, I'd go the traditional route.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Did you watch the match with the coed? She looked entirely miserable after her victory and kinda ticked off at her coach. LMAO. But GSG has stated numerous times that he wins driving the will out of people. Which again is a perfectly valid way to win. Kudos to him.
Not the whole thing. But I know the look you're referring to.

Yes. Net players like to play GSG - doesn't hit a great passing shot unless you hit it to him with pace and hits a lot of balls that can be volleyed effectively. If you are good at overheads like Ian - its a great strategy. It is also - at least for you - an energy reduction tactic. Perfect for playing a pusher. This hardly means that the 40 and under young 4.5 crowd would enjoy playing him.
Fair enough; I can't speak for that crowd.

Did you watch say this match?


In your heart of hearts do you think these guys would enjoy playing MEP in the ATL sun?!
I did not. But if they wouldn't enjoy playing MEP in the ATL sun, would they necessarily enjoy playing a traditional grinder/receiver?



People who play regularly in ATL summers probably have to do it - for the league. They don't want to do it.




I would have said so in the past - but clearly I was wrong. I would NEVER have predicted that any legit 4.5 would lose to a 4.0 because of conditions. But here we are..



Really? What was special about Topher's game compared to an average 4.0? His serve wasn't outstanding. His strokes are not outstanding. His movement and athleticism were not outstanding. He isn't particularly tall or strong. Very ordinary - that's not bad - its just get this "garden variety".
If he's borderline 4.5, then he's not "garden variety", which I interpret to mean "median". And again, I'm not sure what his UTR is; I'm basing my conclusion on what I observed.


Turns out this is an .5 NTRP advantage. Who knew..

You have a habit of taking out negative connotations of words. Stop. If you play a slow guy you take exploit his lack of speed. If you play a short guy you take exploit his lack of height. Etc etc.
I read what I thought you were implying. If that was incorrect, my mistake.

umm yeah. See above.



What is your point? No one is denying any of this..



Nonsensical. If some retires in a match vs another player because of injury - was that match about skill? You are just trying to be contrarian here without thinking.
I admit, I wasn't thinking about an injury retirement when I made my statement.

And, while the injury may not have been about skill, it might have been about conditioning.


I have never said he was cheating. You reading a lot into it. GSG was interesting because I didn't see how he won all those matches vs. 4.5s with his game. I didn't understand why he struggled so much with video 4.5s and such either. Its not at all like cheating. I don't think Reggie Miller running guys off 4 picks to get a clean look at a jumper is cheating. It was exploiting a fitness advantage.

GSG has cleared that up - explaining how he breaks guys down and is totally deserving of his MEP moniker.
OK; again, my mistake.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Hall of Fame
1. 3.5 players can have valid opinions about 4.5 players, they can also be wrong, but the rating of an opinion giver doesn't mean the opinion is automatically wrong.
2. GSG can beat those who beat him, sure, certainly possible, conditions aren't the key to this, I don't think and neither do conditions matter that much in rec tennis (more on that below)
3. Even if I concede that conditions matter to the success of GSG, which I think he is good anywhere, serve and volley tactics work BETTER in the heat and humidity than indoors. (more on that below)

I'm going to fall into a fallacy, the all about me anecdote, but here goes: I learned tennis in Dallas, it's hot, crazy hot, I enjoy it being hot, my favorite condition for no other reason than it is fun and reminds me of old times is a 105 F real temp, heat index above 115. I've played on 4 continents, all the surfaces, in sub freezing temps, indoors with climate control every month of every year pretty much, indoors without climate control, day and night. Only on grass did I think to myself, wow, look at all these free points on my serve, this is awesome. Every other condition is so close that there is no way it would change the outcome of a match. What about Nadal and all his Spaniard friends? Well yes, those who grew up on red clay do have an advantage and a real winning one at the pro level, but how many of us in the US are playing on red clay more than once a week or month?
What about GSG? At the 4.5 level, in Atlanta, there is no way people are losing to him because he can survive humidity more than them, he is beating them, but not because he is the only person who can handle that heat and humidity. I've played in humidity, it's not that hard to survive it and it's just not an issue to the point where one side can win easily with stamina. Maybe if GSG was only playing people who flew down from Canada or Colorado etc. who had never ever been in humidity, maybe that would be a slight bump.

Serve and Volley, it's the easiest style to play if you are worried about heat and humidity. If, big if, if GSG's main weapon was just surviving humidity, the worst strategy would be to baseline battle him. But, in my opinion, his fitness is great and ability to get the back is obvious a strength, but that's not his ticket to winning, that style travels indoors and to other climates if it is good enough to work.

Heat and humidity, especially Atlanta, isn't a secret climate weapon lol, there are plenty of us that play in Texas, Arizona, Florida, Vegas, even So Cal.
 

chazz

Rookie
Heat and humidity, especially Atlanta, isn't a secret climate weapon lol, there are plenty of us that play in Texas, Arizona, Florida, Vegas, even So Cal.
It gets hot here in Pennsylvania during summer. A couple weeks ago it was 95 degrees. The public courts were empty. Played a set with my usual hitting partner and went up 4-0 before getting fatigued and pulling out a 6-3 victory. No way I could have played another set. Of course I'm pushing 50 and not in tennis shape but the heat played a factor against a player I usually beat easily.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Hall of Fame
It gets hot here in Pennsylvania during summer. A couple weeks ago it was 95 degrees. The public courts were empty. Played a set with my usual hitting partner and went up 4-0 before getting fatigued and pulling out a 6-3 victory. No way I could have played another set. Of course I'm pushing 50 and not in tennis shape but the heat played a factor against a player I usually beat easily.
Understandable, in my mind you pretty much live in Canada climate-wise. I like to think almost all 4.5s who still dabble in singles more than 3-4 matches a year, you know, not doubles specialists, are in tennis shape and could handle 95 degrees, if they are from Atlanta or have lived there for a while.
 
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