MEP vs ET Players - Original TT Epic

Who wins?

  • Ian to dish out bagel and a stick

    Votes: 9 9.1%
  • Ian Wins

    Votes: 43 43.4%
  • Ian just manages to win

    Votes: 22 22.2%
  • Green shirt teaches Ian a lesson

    Votes: 6 6.1%
  • Green shirt wins

    Votes: 13 13.1%
  • Green shirt shocks the tennis world

    Votes: 6 6.1%

  • Total voters
    99
  • Poll closed .
D

Deleted member 780836

Guest
Those are factors but not even MEP himself emphasized them.
Wrong, go back and read this thread. He said racket weight was a factor in the defeats, he has since switched to a heavier racket. He said indoor was a factor. He said things would be better suited for him in the ATL outdoors.
I even went so far as to say that if I was teaching a beginner, I'd go the traditional route.
Careful, the MEP cult might not forgive you for such sins, they might kick you out of their membership ;)
 
Wrong, go back and read this thread. He said racket weight was a factor in the defeats, he has since switched to a heavier racket. He said indoor was a factor. He said things would be better suited for him in the ATL outdoors.
You're right. But in my view, he didn't, IMO, dwell on it like, for example, perhaps his frequent vanquished opponents in the past.

Recognition of a factor is not the same as emphasizing them.

Careful, the MEP cult might not forgive you for such sins, they might kick you out of their membership ;)
It's OK; I have my own cult since @Slowtwitcher and @tomato123 started Sing&Ving.
 
D

Deleted member 780836

Guest
You're right. But in my view, he didn't, IMO, dwell on it like, for example, perhaps his frequent vanquished opponents in the past.

Recognition of a factor is not the same as emphasizing them.
You could have ended the post at You're right and called it a day or not responded at all. You have to split hairs and somehow prolong the discussion. You cannot ever seem to accept that that you're wrong, you always move goalposts and start another discussion.
If I ever needed an example of why all advice on this tennis tips subforum should be ignored, your exchanges with me in this thread and the the discussion about sound vs light are enough. Thanks.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Understandable, in my mind you pretty much live in Canada climate-wise. I like to think almost all 4.5s who still dabble in singles more than 3-4 matches a year, you know, not doubles specialists, are in tennis shape and could handle 95 degrees, if they are from Atlanta or have lived there for a while.
I think GSG would say you are wrong. They can handle it against a player who doesn't extend every point and run every ball down.. I live in Texas now - as I moved here from California (after spending most of my adult life in NYC).. I can say that I cannot handle it in the summer and almost no one can. It can be 110 in the shade and humid. It's insane.

Yes you can play tennis if you move real slow and take it easy - but almost no one does.. Being able to play hard in massive heat is a huge advantage. Tennis players are reasonably fit compared to average joes - but that's it. 4.5 players are not in professional level shape - and cannot play hard in that heat - with the exception of guys like MEP.
 
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FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
I think GSG would say you are wrong. They can handle it against a player who doesn't extend every point and run every ball down.. I live in Texas now - as I moved here from California (after spending most of my adult life in NYC).. I can say that I cannot handle it in the summer and almost no one can. It can be 110 in the shade and humid. It's insane.

Yes you can play tennis if you move real slow and take it easy - but almost no one does.. Being able to play hard in massive heat is a huge advantage. Tennis players are reasonably fit compared to average joes - but that's it. 4.5 players are not in professional level shape - and cannot play hard in that heat - with the exception of guys like MEP.
Texas, nice, welcome to my homeland. I can't know what MEP thinks about the weather or what condition his tennis partners/opponents are in. But, I can be found playing 6-8 hours of singles in 2 days for a tournament when I am in Dallas during the summer, no problem, and I'm not a triathlete, just a thin guy in above average shape. A good portion of my 4.5 tennis buddies here are in their mid 20's and just a couple years out from college tennis, they can handle the heat easily as well. So, at least in my world, I know many 4.5 players, even 4.0 and 3.5 players who can play in the heat, it doesn't require professional level fitness really, just pretty good fitness. All my tennis friends from juniors can handle the heat as well, if they are still into tennis. It's not a bad thing that you can't handle it, it is understandable, spending so much time in colder climates and probably not playing outside in 100 degree weather every summer for decades, it just is what it is. Anyone who grew up in Atlanta or had a few years to acclimate would be ok with humidity too, and usually 4.5 players are ones that play a lot of tennis.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Texas, nice, welcome to my homeland. I can't know what MEP thinks about the weather or what condition his tennis partners/opponents are in. But, I can be found playing 6-8 hours of singles in 2 days for a tournament when I am in Dallas during the summer, no problem, and I'm not a triathlete, just a thin guy in above average shape. A good portion of my 4.5 tennis buddies here are in their mid 20's and just a couple years out from college tennis, they can handle the heat easily as well. So, at least in my world, I know many 4.5 players, even 4.0 and 3.5 players who can play in the heat, it doesn't require professional level fitness really, just pretty good fitness. All my tennis friends from juniors can handle the heat as well, if they are still into tennis. It's not a bad thing that you can't handle it, it is understandable, spending so much time in colder climates and probably not playing outside in 100 degree weather every summer for decades, it just is what it is. Anyone who grew up in Atlanta or had a few years to acclimate would be ok with humidity too, and usually 4.5 players are ones that play a lot of tennis.
So you are saying you can play 3-4 hours of singles a day in 100 degree heat? From what I have heard most play either early morning or at night under the lights in the hot climates.
 
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FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
So you are saying you can play 3-4 hours of singles a day in 100 degree heat? From what I have heard most play either early morning or at night under the lights in the hot climates.
Yes, and not that often are organized matches at heat friendly times, tournaments run throughout the day, most start between 8-9 am and then the second match will be between noon and 3pm. Rarely do tournaments have night matches, nor usta leagues for that matter.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Yes, and not that often are organized matches at heat friendly times, tournaments run throughout the day, most start between 8-9 am and then the second match will be between noon and 3pm. Rarely do tournaments have night matches, nor usta leagues for that matter.
I understand most tournaments are in the day, it just seems most players in hot climates play in the morning or at night if they have the choice. A player hast to really be used to the heat to play singles for 6 hours in midday heat. I’m in a northern climate but we do get really hot and humid at times and playing midday with sun out is tough. We usually play in the evenings during hot times, I can take about any heat and humidity once the sun is setting but not in midday with the sun torching the court.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
I understand most tournaments are in the day, it just seems most players in hot climates play in the morning or at night if they have the choice. A player hast to really be used to the heat to play singles for 6 hours in midday heat. I’m in a northern climate but we do get really hot and humid at times and playing midday with sun out is tough. We usually play in the evenings during hot times, I can take about any heat and humidity once the sun is setting but not in midday with the sun torching the court.
Yes, you do need to be used to it. But, if you grew up in it there really isn't a problem playing in it. Playing after 6pm when it gets cooler is more difficult on the weekends with people having other time commitments. Weekdays if course that is the norm with work schedules.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
So you are saying you can play 3-4 hours of singles a day in 100 degree heat? From what I have heard most play either early morning or at night under the lights in the hot climates.
I like the heat myself but its unlikely i could play 3-4 hours of singles in any temp. 1st off thats like 20 sets and i will tighten up before that. When i was in my twenties and playing leagues and tournaments i would really try to play at noon because it was such an edge for me.

Hydration is key. I will often drink a gallon when the other guy has just had one little bottle.
 
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Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Ya I could not play fully covered like that in the heat, but it doesn’t seem to bother Shroud.
Back to my pants and hoodie. Just got done playing. Won 6-3 and the guy quit because of his heel. Thank goodness. I was gassed. So sad. It was only 81 deg. Need more work to get back to where I was.

Be glad you are in great shape.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Back to my pants and hoodie. Just got done playing. Won 6-3 and the guy quit because of his heel. Thank goodness. I was gassed. So sad. It was only 81 deg. Need more work to get back to where I was.

Be glad you are in great shape.
You probably just have to get used to the heat again.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Yes, you do need to be used to it. But, if you grew up in it there really isn't a problem playing in it. Playing after 6pm when it gets cooler is more difficult on the weekends with people having other time commitments. Weekdays if course that is the norm with work schedules.
You can claim this - but I been by West Lake Highschool (in Austin) - they have 12 really nice outdoor courts over there. And if you show up on a weekend that is above 110 - no one is there. It's super easy to get a court. On days where it is nicer - it is way more crowded. So sorry - not buying this Texas tough thing. Like I said you can play in that kind of weather - against maybe a basher. But most will avoid it - and against a pusher. Hell no.

And we already have the words from the man himself - he had his opponent grasping his knees by the third point. This brutal fitness advantage is also present in other sports - but coaches can pull them out like in hoops. In tennis there is no escape. This is why guys on the tour are in amazing shape.. They have to be.

GSG to his credit makes people work to win - and thus the heat and humidity becomes a huge factor. This is not really at all controversial or even something that people should be arguing against. Is a guy in very good physical condition better in extreme heat? Yes. If he makes the other person work very hard to earn points - will they tire in the end? Yup.

Heck even indoors guys started off fast against GSG - and then he did better in later sets.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
You can claim this - but I been by West Lake Highschool (in Austin) - they have 12 really nice outdoor courts over there. And if you show up on a weekend that is above 110 - no one is there. It's super easy to get a court. On days where it is nicer - it is way more crowded. So sorry - not buying this Texas tough thing. Like I said you can play in that kind of weather - against maybe a basher. But most will avoid it - and against a pusher. Hell no.

And we already have the words from the man himself - he had his opponent grasping his knees by the third point. This brutal fitness advantage is also present in other sports - but coaches can pull them out like in hoops. In tennis there is no escape. This is why guys on the tour are in amazing shape.. They have to be.
Thats what I thought also, most courts are empty in midday when the heat is bad. Even in Illinois where I live not many players on the courts in July during the day. But in the morning or evening there will be plenty of players out.

A friend of mine goes to a tennis camp in Florida in early March and he said the instructor told him the courts are empty during daytime once it gets hot out in summertime.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
You can claim this - but I been by West Lake Highschool (in Austin) - they have 12 really nice outdoor courts over there. And if you show up on a weekend that is above 110 - no one is there. It's super easy to get a court. On days where it is nicer - it is way more crowded. So sorry - not buying this Texas tough thing. Like I said you can play in that kind of weather - against maybe a basher. But most will avoid it - and against a pusher. Hell no.

And we already have the words from the man himself - he had his opponent grasping his knees by the third point. This brutal fitness advantage is also present in other sports - but coaches can pull them out like in hoops. In tennis there is no escape. This is why guys on the tour are in amazing shape.. They have to be.

GSG to his credit makes people work to win - and thus the heat and humidity becomes a huge factor. This is not really at all controversial or even something that people should be arguing against. Is a guy in very good physical condition better in extreme heat? Yes. If he makes the other person work very hard to earn points - will they tire in the end? Yup.

Heck even indoors guys started off fast against GSG - and then he did better in later sets.
Check the tournament schedule, there was a huge tourney in Austin thus weekend, half the dallas tennis warriors were there, there are about 4 UTR tourneys in dallas alone all summer long, not to mention USTA. And, the country clubs are full, Brookhaven, TBARM full all day in the summer weekends. (Both in Dallas).
 
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FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Thats what I thought also, most courts are empty in midday when the heat is bad. Even in Illinois where I live not many players on the courts in July during the day. But in the morning or evening there will be plenty of players out.

A friend of mine goes to a tennis camp in Florida in early March and he said the instructor told him the courts are empty during daytime once it gets hot out in summertime.
Maybe because the ocean is there or other Florida rec opportunities,, but it is all full in dallas, even a lot of drills are afternoon.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Check the tournament schedule, there was a huge tourney in Austin thus weekend, half the dallas tennis warriors were there, there are about 4 UTR tourneys in dallas alone all summer long, not to mention USTA. And, the country clubs are full, Brookhaven, TBARM full all day in the summer weekends. (Both in Dallas).
Yeah and its not 110 this weekend. LOL. Like I said people will play if they have to. If you want to do a UTR tourney you will suffer through it. I think we can agree to disagree here. This is like when someone asks what you can bench on an internet forum - and everyone there can bench 300+.

Are there people that still play in the extreme heat - for a tournament. Sure. Some people will play in the cold as well. It's way less popular. Point is being fit enough to handle the heat is an advantage in places like ATL and Texas.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Yeah and its not 110 this weekend. LOL. Like I said people will play if they have to. If you want to do a UTR tourney you will suffer through it. I think we can agree to disagree here. This is like when someone asks what you can bench on an internet forum - and everyone there can bench 300+.

Are there people that still play in the extreme heat - for a tournament. Sure. Some people will play in the cold as well. It's way less popular. Point is being fit enough to handle the heat is an advantage in places like ATL and Texas.
UTR and USTA tournaments increase during the heat, plenty of people want to play in the heat, like myself. I don't think it is anything like someone bragging about a 300 bench press on a forum, I'm just sharing with you my preferences and that the tennis clubs I frequent in Dallas are full in the summer heat and available tournaments increase. I like to play 3-6 times a week all summer and I don't feel like taking a break or waiting to play only at night or at 8 am when it hits 100 plus.

GSG graciously gave his opinion on his own situation and said he doesn't feel disadvantaged in the heat and at times it's a neutral impact on his matches. I seem to think if you are playing people in Atlanta, most of them who still enjoy singles are ready for the climate, just maybe not ready for GSG getting so many balls back.
 
Curious what is the yellow racquet Ian from Essential tennis uses?
This is not an exact answer, and I'm sure someone will have it, but he has mentioned before during a livestream that they (including the red one he uses sometimes as well) are older Wilson models that are custom painted. Maybe Pro Staff 95s, or 6.1s? I can't remember, but definitely an older Wilson that he custom painted.
 

chazz

Rookie
@MikhailT You may want to ask Mark Sansait over at his YouTube channel as he strings for Ian and probably the others as well. I'm fairly certain they all use full polly setups. Actually would be interesting to know all the Essential Tennis players racquet and string info.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
@MikhailT You may want to ask Mark Sansait over at his YouTube channel as he strings for Ian and probably the others as well. I'm fairly certain they all use full polly setups. Actually would be interesting to know all the Essential Tennis players racquet and string info.
TBH Ian could beat GSG with a frying pan.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
You can't teach footwork, balance or preparation? That's a new one on me. Taught those all the time to my students (back when I was a coach) with great success, especially some elite juniors.

You might be one of the many people that think they can be taught by just watching a video. I've seen a lot of types that just feed on tennis tips but never really engrain it in muscle memory, they try it for 10 minutes and think the footwork/stroke whatever is fixed. Just knowing something is half the battle, there's a gulf between knowing and doing on a tennis court. That's sometimes where a (good) coach comes in.

I used to do a cardio tennis class, I think that was great for adult rec players footwork. Unfortunately at times I was seen as a little bit of a task master in that class. It's a very delicate situation to teach some non-athletic adult rec players. Being someone that was pushed very hard by my coaches I had to learn that as a coach. A lot of older rec players have limitations that don't allow them to move very well. If that's the case then overcoming those limitations may be the first step. Or maybe they can't be overcome but there's still ways to get better in increments.

Getting better at footwork is more about doing than knowing is my biggest point. Most people dont want to practice it because it's too much work, they're their to have fun with the very little time they have outside of work. I get it. Different strokes. Most people also just want a lesson where they get to hit every type of shot and get some boilerplate tips (it's fun and it's the equivalent of a practice session but it wont get your game better long term). I could go into more detail about how to get better footwork, but it's really not all that complicated and I'm sure there's plenty of videos online. I like a ladder for getting better at small steps.

For racquet prep I generally taught that two different ways. Simplified version for beginners with just one step. Two steps for more advanced players (stalking phase and racquet back phase). I learned mostly from Tennisplayer.net (John Yandell) not Youtube videos. I tried to create progressions for these things and explain it as simply as possible (no biomechanics terms). Changing a stroke is a sales process, have to sell the person on how it improves their game (I found that quite fun and easy because I knew it would have massive improvements on their game). I can't sell people the same way on here which is fine (showing someone is leagues and leagues further apart than telling them), this place is sometimes more like an auction where the highest bidder (best advice) is whoever fits the OPs bias the best.

For you, Shroud, it could be that changing your racquet prep killed your stretch shorten cycle. That's why theres a stalking phase and right when the ball hits the court on your side you coil. If you stretch the muscles by coiling too early you lose all the power. Hard to say really but it's my best guess. You like many others on this forum will probably not find the answers your seeking on this forum. Because the answer to your question lies in actually practicing the technique and having someone qualified walk you through any questions you have. You'll have to be sold on why it makes your game better and that AHA moment will hit you so hard and your face will light up (one of the great joys of being a coach is seeing this). Having good racquet prep will undoubtedly improve your game.

Also you stated you only gave it one hitting session. Even if you're doing the technique right it will mess up your timing and, yes, you'll have a terrible hitting session. You can't change a technique in a hitting session. Rent a ball machine at a club and just isolate the shot. It will require weeks of practice, thousands of shots. When all said and done the transformation will amaze you. Much better than instant gratification, enjoy the process.

Here's a good video on racquet prep, similar to how I used break it down as a coach, I even used video analysis on my phone:

I should have been more clear. Sure prep can be taught, but footwork? Balance? And maybe I should clarify that at my advanced age I doubt I could relearn balance and footwork...Doubtful I could be bothered to relearn what is natural. So you may be right. I recall the frustration of the dance class my wife took me to. Omg I wanted to kill her.

Heck I am so dense on the court and can't seem to see much beyond my own game. Once in Usta I played 25 min before realizing the guy was a lefty. Which I know seems so silly but its true. Now I look immediately. Any vids on balance and footwork. I can at least watch them and see, but very very skeptical.

Funny you mention Yandell. He tought me my forehand (sure I unlearned most of it so don't blame him) and one of the things was how to line up for the ball. It wasnt exactly like Ians prep vid it was more like recognizing the line of the ball and intersecting it at a 90 deg angle. If you are on tennisplayer.net, you can see the Shroud forehand write up he did with all the before and after. So I can be taught I suppose.

I checked some recent vids and I do seem to be prepped by the time the ball lands...mostly. Thats a surprise to me.

I have changed technique in one session a few times. Played for 20+ years with a one hander. Then went out and hit open stance one handers. Pretty amazed at how short it took to do it. Recently I went out and hit a completely different bh (closed stance but with a different contact and followthrough). Sometimes it sticks like the new bh. But sometimes it reverts.
 

BHold81

Semi-Pro
So you are saying you can play 3-4 hours of singles a day in 100 degree heat? From what I have heard most play either early morning or at night under the lights in the hot climates.
I live in Atlanta where Ben is from, and playing during the day in the summer can be very brutal. I definitely try to avoid playing afternoon matches.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Heat means little - in desert areas you can play in pretty high temps - because you can sweat so effectively. But heat and humidity - the wet bulb temperature drops quite a bit. Wet bulb is the temp where people start to die from heat. The issue is that you cannot sweat effectively in high humidity as the water does not evaporate to cool you off..

Sure they might schedule more tournaments and such then - but you only play if you have to.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
My bulbs get moist when it is hot outside. But yes, of course you have to play, you don't duck out on tennis when it's hot and humid out, time to grab 6 shirts and change em often and feel the warmth of the air like you are inside a little oven.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Heat means little - in desert areas you can play in pretty high temps - because you can sweat so effectively. But heat and humidity - the wet bulb temperature drops quite a bit. Wet bulb is the temp where people start to die from heat. The issue is that you cannot sweat effectively in high humidity as the water does not evaporate to cool you off..

Sure they might schedule more tournaments and such then - but you only play if you have to.
You know about wet bulb temperature, but it seems in that other post you incorrectly believe Fauci discouraged the use of hydroxychloroquine to boost death rates? Wait, do you actually believe Hydroxy has a place in the medical treatment of Covid? Please tell me you believe that, it would be so amazing. .....stirring the pot.... hehe. 6/4 edit :Darnit, someone removed that post reply in "how deceiving is the lob serve" from yesterday, ahhhh!
 
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jmnk

Hall of Fame
They mentioned it in passing during the post match interview just like they mentioned it in passing that oh by the way Scott is actually a teaching pro. I wouldn't say they were trying to hide it, but I also wouldn't say they were entirely forthright about Scott's level/background either.

Scott said "I'm a 4.5 because I wrote a letter. I'm a 4.5A"

I wonder how he'd do vs those "true" Chicago-land 4.5s.
Now that I think of it again it does seem a bit not-entirely-transparent/honest. I mean it is true that Topher/Scott/Ian beat MEP fair and square. And I think if MEP played Topher again I would lean toward MEP winning 6 out of 10 matches. But Ian and Scott would beat MEP every time - because they are simply a one level higher players.

Which is why that series should have been framed as 'you want to see how to beat MEP type player? Do what these experienced 5.0 players do: don't overhit, don't get frustrated with balls coming back, stay calm, go to the net". Rather than "we have these not-really-USTA-computer-ranked players that can really be any level, for the sake of suspense we are going to call them 4.0 or 4.5, let's have MEP play against them".
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Now that I think of it again it does seem a bit not-entirely-transparent/honest. I mean it is true that Topher/Scott/Ian beat MEP fair and square. And I think if MEP played Topher again I would lean toward MEP winning 6 out of 10 matches. But Ian and Scott would beat MEP every time - because they are simply a one level higher players.

Which is why that series should have been framed as 'you want to see how to beat MEP type player? Do what these experienced 5.0 players do: don't overhit, don't get frustrated with balls coming back, stay calm, go to the net". Rather than "we have these not-really-USTA-computer-ranked players that can really be any level, for the sake of suspense we are going to call them 4.0 or 4.5, let's have MEP play against them".
imo, Topher had one fluke escape to win the match- it's like Soderling beating Rafa once. I take MEP to win each and everytime against Topher without a question on any surface.
Scott was picked by MEP as ET/Ian has explained multiple times - and MEP didn't do the homework or didn't care that he was a teaching pro with a stellar record at the recreational level. It was not a match of the same level to begin with. Ian was a bit competitive on paper as he had not played competitively recently - even then the gulf is too wide between an ex college player and a rec player who picked up the game as an adult. No surprises there as the poll here correctly predicted the outcome. But I think Scott and Ian's matches were of great 'educational value' presented with good entertainment.
 
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Now that I think of it again it does seem a bit not-entirely-transparent/honest. I mean it is true that Topher/Scott/Ian beat MEP fair and square. And I think if MEP played Topher again I would lean toward MEP winning 6 out of 10 matches. But Ian and Scott would beat MEP every time - because they are simply a one level higher players.

Which is why that series should have been framed as 'you want to see how to beat MEP type player? Do what these experienced 5.0 players do: don't overhit, don't get frustrated with balls coming back, stay calm, go to the net". Rather than "we have these not-really-USTA-computer-ranked players that can really be any level, for the sake of suspense we are going to call them 4.0 or 4.5, let's have MEP play against them".
To be fair to ET, it started out as just Ian v MEP. It morphed into the 4 match, 3 day lollapalooza because MEP wanted more matches [can't say I blame him, coming all the way from Atlanta]. I couldn't find any USTA record for Ian but he did enter an Open tournament back in October [although there's no evidence he actually played], which says something about his perceived level and the fact that he played D2 at a school that I think was in the top 20. And Scott was 5.0 and only could be called a 4.5 because he appealed down.

To be consistent, @PilotPete should have argued that Scott wasn't a true 4.5 either but rather a 5.0.
 
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