MEP vs MEP clone !!!

The only pusher-like aspect in MEP's game is his willingness to run to every ball. But he's not a pusher otherwise. In fact I'd consider him an offensive player. Offense doesn't have to be synonymous with powerful topspin drive shots. It's about dictating the play, which he does by placing his shots strategically, as opposed to a pusher who'd just return the ball. In addition, his style is offensive to the eyes, which is yet another weapon.
 
There are also matchup considerations, though. Someone who likes full stroke TS might have a rough time against someone who blocks and slices at varying heights. That style is out of their comfort zone.

By the same token, a pusher might have a tough go against a net attacker [I've been the beneficiary of this matchup multiple times].

Even if their DNTRP was identical, they would have preferences of opponent style.

Matchup considerations are huge vs. MEP. Some guys simply won't grind against him. I think plenty of people will attack him like that 50 year old guy - bigger serves - try to hit more attacking shots - and end the game quickly. MEP uses this to beat many opponents - but with enough skill you simply out hit him..and play fairly aggressive.

I want to see wannabe pro vs. MEP. Some of the stronger 4.5s are going to clean up against MEP - like the two guys that battled for the tennis troll tournament title..

Each level in NTRP is pretty wide.. There are 4.5s who are going to beat him nearly every time.. and others who will lose almost every time.
 
The only pusher-like aspect in MEP's game is his willingness to run to every ball. But he's not a pusher otherwise. In fact I'd consider him an offensive player. Offense doesn't have to be synonymous with powerful topspin drive shots. It's about dictating the play, which he does by placing his shots strategically, as opposed to a pusher who'd just return the ball. In addition, his style is offensive to the eyes, which is yet another weapon.

Good point: placement is a weapon, just like fitness, consistency, mental toughness, etc. But many people overlook or even dismiss these qualities because they aren't flashy [ie 100mph serve, 80mph FH, 3000 rpm TS, etc].

Where you can argue the semantics is that MEP is not trying to win the point outright but instead is putting the ball in an uncomfortable place for the opponent. Is that offense? Many might argue it isn't. But if that style can provoke errors like a 100mph serve, could it not also be considered offense?

Ultimately it's irrelevant. What's relevant is that the style poses problems that the opponent needs to solve.
 
It's semantics - similar is not the same as clone. In case it's not clear, the word "clone" was used very loosely to make a hyperbolic figurative metaphor. It's a difficult argument when personal taste, and very subjective idiosyncrasies are involved.
Just move on.

dude, check the opinions of other posters
and yes, move on, it was a very bad phrase, yet move on
 
Good point: placement is a weapon, just like fitness, consistency, mental toughness, etc. But many people overlook or even dismiss these qualities because they aren't flashy [ie 100mph serve, 80mph FH, 3000 rpm TS, etc].

Where you can argue the semantics is that MEP is not trying to win the point outright but instead is putting the ball in an uncomfortable place for the opponent. Is that offense? Many might argue it isn't. But if that style can provoke errors like a 100mph serve, could it not also be considered offense?

Ultimately it's irrelevant. What's relevant is that the style poses problems that the opponent needs to solve.

Sorry to quote myself but this guy really knows what he's talking about! :)

It occurred to me that my net attacking style is similar to the pusher's in that I usually do not try to win the point outright when serving/approaching: instead, I try to put the ball in an uncomfortable place and make the opponent try to pass me. And most would agree that a net attacker is an offensive player.

[I guess the main difference is that I'm issuing an ultimatum: "pass me or it's all over" whereas someone like MEP is not making that drastic of a challenge. But it is still a challenge nonetheless: "Now try to hit this one!"]
 
It’s an acquired taste. The more I watch it, the more I appreciate it.

Yea, although I have to say I'd be a little disappointed if the ugliness of his style was not at least partly deliberate. This reminds me of a very good club player I know who uses every little trick he can find to bug his opponents. He admitted to me that he sometimes even deliberately dressed in ugly attire if that could annoy his opponent. (My reply was that his ugly face already does the job.) Quite a good player though.
 
Yea, although I have to say I'd be a little disappointed if the ugliness of his style was not at least partly deliberate. This reminds me of a very good club player I know who uses every little trick he can find to bug his opponents. He admitted to me that he sometimes even deliberately dressed in ugly attire if that could annoy his opponent. (My reply was that his ugly face already does the job.) Quite a good player though.
I give him props for embracing the green shirt as his signature look.
 
dude, check the opinions of other posters
and yes, move on, it was a very bad phrase, yet move on

As some politicians say I don't poll the posters for the words and phrases I like to use ( as I have indicated earlier, I don't apologize for using clickbait or misleading titles )
 
Is it because green symbolizes the nature? He uses all shots that come naturally without having to ingrain artificial moves such as unit turn, core etc.
He has taken natural tennis to its extreme end. No worry about strokes. Just the simplest ways possible to direct the ball toward geometrically advantageous targets.
 
There are also matchup considerations, though. Someone who likes full stroke TS might have a rough time against someone who blocks and slices at varying heights. That style is out of their comfort zone.

By the same token, a pusher might have a tough go against a net attacker [I've been the beneficiary of this matchup multiple times].

Even if their DNTRP was identical, they would have preferences of opponent style.
I agree and have talked in previous posts many times about how my pre-match planning and tactical adjustments are partly based on the playing style of opponents also in addition to strengths/weaknesses assessment (mine and theirs).

I’m an all-court player and my game plan for a singles match will be adaptable partly based on the opponent‘s style.

- If I play an aggressive baseliner, I’ll try to be a consistent, counter-punching baseliner who is patient. I’m likely to amp up my topspin and lower the pace of my rally balls.
- If I play a consistent baseliner (like MEP) or a junkballer, I try to get to the net to finish points and I also try bringing them to net.
- If I play a net player, I am more aggressive with my baseline game and also stand closer during rallies. I’m likely to hit harder and flatter with less topspin and less trajectory. I also serve more wide serves to open up space for a pass on the other side if they try to chip and charge.
- If I play against a flat-hitter, I’ll increase my topspin a lot to give them a high contact zone. I can also change angles more easily and hit DTL more often. Against a heavy topspin hitter, I make too many errors if I try to change the angle often and have to wait for a shorter ball.

I’ve played and watched many USTA league singles matches at the 4.0 and 4.5 level between computer-rated players. In general, players with more than a half-level (0.25 dynamic rating point difference on TennisRecord or TLS since the official USTA dynamic computer level is unknown) always seem to win or at least win >95% of the time if they play a lot of USTA singles for their league team - assuming there is no injury and no obvious tanking. So, a 4.35 singles specialist always seems to beat a 4.1 rated player and a 3.9 rated player always beats a 3.65 player and so on. In general, the ratings seem to be pretty accurate for those whose ratings are made up of mostly league singles matches.

My experience is only with hard courts and this may not be true on grass or clay. However on hard courts, when singles players are approximately at the same level (let’s say 0.25 computer rating variance in TLS/TR or 1 UTR level), it seems like certain playing styles have an advantage over other styles as follows:

- Aggressive Baseliner beats a Net Rusher
- Net Rusher beats a Consistent Baseliner
- Consistent Baseliner beats an Aggressive Baseliner

So, my impression is that it seems like a circle where one style has an advantage over another, but can be beaten by a 3rd style. Since we are comparing same levels, no one has overwhelming weapons to just out-power the other playing style without making more errors. If someone has more weapons and is more consistent, they would be at a higher computer rating that is more than 0.25 points higher.

I am an all-court player and if I play against a consistent baseliner (includes pushers, hackers, junk ballers and counterpunchers who wait for errors), I tend to try to approach the net as quickly as I can and finish many points at the net - I also try to bring them to the net away from their comfort zone on the baseline. If I play against a net-rusher (serve-and-volley, chip-and-charge), I tend to play closer to the baseline and ramp up the power of my shots (might make a few more errors than usual) to make them hit difficult volleys or pass them. If I play against an aggressive baseliner with harder shots than me, I stand further back from the baseline for serve returns and during rallies and try to out-last them in long rallies - the idea is that if they cannot hit enough winners to win many short points, I’ll make less unforced errors and force more errors playing conservative tennis including the dreaded moonballs, lobs etc if needed. At the 4.5 level, most aggressive baseliners can still finish well at the net as they generally have good technique and bringing them to the net with short slices or drops doesn’t always work unlike against junk ballers/pushers, but I will try that too.

So, are there stylistic advantages as described if the players are of similar levels? Do other players change their tactics and strategy in league and tournament singles in a similar fashion if you are an all-court player? This is in addition to figuring out the best location for serves, best way to return etc, based on the opponent‘s strengths and weaknesses and other preferred point patterns you might like to play. I would be interested in getting the opinions of computer-rated singles players who play USTA league or tournaments in particular. This is because self-ratings are highly inaccurate and the player who is better by half-NTRP level (high-4.0 against low-4.0, mid-4.5 vs high 4.0) is in general going to win irrespective of playing style and you can compare pros and cons of playing styles only of similar-level players with a computer rating. Maybe you can compare singles players with UTR ratings of +/- 1 level and their playing styles also.
 
There are also matchup considerations, though.
Even if their DNTRP was identical, they would have preferences of opponent style.

Sure. Point taken @S&V-not_dead_yet . But what @socallefty was trying to convey is also true. Essentially "most of the time", players at same level are NOT going to throw off another player at same or higher level OFF the court with their shots, irrespective of playing style. There are obvious exceptions, and sometimes natural up and downs which all amateur players experience. But they are on same level for a reason.

When someone claims they have easy time against "pushers", most of the time it is because they are playing pushers at a level below them, and not because their playing style is so good against pushers.
 
To me it seems like John had played MEV before, and so it was a stategic adjustment based on two concepts. And I think that is a good adjustment, by looking at the match since he got into clean point winning situations a lot more often than some other MEP matches.

1. risk-vs-reward.
Essentially if you are not going to get punished for hitting a short or slow ball, then there is less demand for pace/depth to stay neutral in a point. If your reward is less even when hitting deep & pace, then you have less need to go for depth & pace. I mentioned them just to get the concept, and in no way intent to say you will never get punished from MEV. But I hope you got the idea.

2. pace/technique/error balance
When your technique is bad, you usually feed off others pace, and would have hard time creating pace. I think John did a good job in keeping the pace minimal in neutral rallies, so that MEV cannot feed of that creating too much pressure on John, and still kept proper placements (mostly short) to not allow MEV to take over. This I believe got John to more point finishing scenarios without going through the usual MEV frustrations. Of course John probably was not finishing all of them clean, but getting to there without much pain is always a bonus.

In other MEV matches I usually see players hitting deep and hard taking too much risk right to MEV, only to see MEV borrowing time by popping the ball up nice and easy with good depth. In a neutral rally if MEV hits 5 such pop-up deep shots and the opponent hits hard deep 5 shots, of course the natural advantage shifts to MEV just because of the mental and physicial energy spent by each player.

If the intent is a neutral shot, the main intent is not to get attacked with minimal effort (so that you can save the energy for time to attack) and gaining slight advantage in position/time is only secondary.



Not at all. John was drawn into MEPs game style, like so many are. But You can see John prefers normal pace play and such.
 
The only pusher-like aspect in MEP's game is his willingness to run to every ball. But he's not a pusher otherwise. In fact I'd consider him an offensive player. Offense doesn't have to be synonymous with powerful topspin drive shots. It's about dictating the play, which he does by placing his shots strategically, as opposed to a pusher who'd just return the ball. In addition, his style is offensive to the eyes, which is yet another weapon.
Matchup considerations are huge vs. MEP. Some guys simply won't grind against him. I think plenty of people will attack him like that 50 year old guy - bigger serves - try to hit more attacking shots - and end the game quickly. MEP uses this to beat many opponents - but with enough skill you simply out hit him..and play fairly aggressive.

I want to see wannabe pro vs. MEP. Some of the stronger 4.5s are going to clean up against MEP - like the two guys that battled for the tennis troll tournament title..
Good point: placement is a weapon, just like fitness, consistency, mental toughness, etc. But many people overlook or even dismiss these qualities because they aren't flashy [ie 100mph serve, 80mph FH, 3000 rpm TS, etc].

Where you can argue the semantics is that MEP is not trying to win the point outright but instead is putting the ball in an uncomfortable place for the opponent. Is that offense? Many might argue it isn't. But if that style can provoke errors like a 100mph serve, could it not also be considered offense?

Ultimately it's irrelevant. What's relevant is that the style poses problems that the opponent needs to solve.

Each level in NTRP is pretty wide.. There are 4.5s who are going to beat him nearly every time.. and others who will lose almost every time.

No offense to MEP but you guys are overcomplicating tennis and MEP's playing.

Maybe MEP doesn't intend any of the things you guys said. Nor is he even aware of them.

To my eyes, he doesn't.

He's simply playing via running and hitting the ball back any way he can. His success comes from dialing the running (ie quickness) and focused getting of the ball back which is all from having played ALOT. Playing ALOT is another key here.

You guys should try that sometimes, instead of drawing up all the "sophisticated" strategies, shots that really burden the mind.

LOL ...LOL...
 
No offense to MEP but you guys are overcomplicating tennis and MEP's playing.

Maybe MEP doesn't intend any of the things you guys said. Nor is he even aware of them.

To my eyes, he doesn't.

I find it hard to believe that a 4.5 with a winning record is A) unintentional about his strategy; and B) unaware that it exists.

He's simply playing via running and hitting the ball back any way he can. His success comes from dialing the running (ie quickness) and focused getting of the ball back which is all from having played ALOT. Playing ALOT is another key here.

There's one way to find out: @GSG: what say you?

You guys should try that sometimes, instead of drawing up all the "sophisticated" strategies, shots that really burden the mind.

LOL ...LOL...

My strategy is dead simple: attack the net and make my opponent prove he can consistently defeat my net game. If Plan A fails, then it necessarily gets more complicated as I'm dealing with something I'm less comfortable with and not as good at executing.
 
Matchup considerations are huge vs. MEP. Some guys simply won't grind against him. I think plenty of people will attack him like that 50 year old guy - bigger serves - try to hit more attacking shots - and end the game quickly. MEP uses this to beat many opponents - but with enough skill you simply out hit him..and play fairly aggressive.

I want to see wannabe pro vs. MEP. Some of the stronger 4.5s are going to clean up against MEP - like the two guys that battled for the tennis troll tournament title..

Each level in NTRP is pretty wide.. There are 4.5s who are going to beat him nearly every time.. and others who will lose almost every time.

You'd be surprise how well this style does.
His UTR is 8.37, that's high 4.5 / low 5.0 according to UTR.
5.0s would have an easier time with a very solid net game.
 
It’s a psychological war.
What I’m most interested in is how he can get to 99% of the balls.
Blue shirt tries every type of angle and depth and he’s there!!!
 
No offense to MEP but you guys are overcomplicating tennis and MEP's playing.

Maybe MEP doesn't intend any of the things you guys said. Nor is he even aware of them.

To my eyes, he doesn't.

He's simply playing via running and hitting the ball back any way he can. His success comes from dialing the running (ie quickness) and focused getting of the ball back which is all from having played ALOT. Playing ALOT is another key here.

You guys should try that sometimes, instead of drawing up all the "sophisticated" strategies, shots that really burden the mind.

LOL ...LOL...

No. When he's on defense he floats the ball back to the middle of the court. Otherwise he's clearly hitting away from his opponents and making them run. It may not be "sophisticated," but it's a clear strategy. And effective.
 
Props to MEP, great touch, placement and angles. Clearly phenomenal stamina. But the 4.5/ strong 4.0s I play would take all of those short, placeless balls and blast him off the court.
 
No offense to MEP but you guys are overcomplicating tennis and MEP's playing.

A strategy doesn't necessarily have to be complicated (unless you consider EVERY strategy to be complicated, which I hope you don't). It can be simple and effective, like MEP's. No rocket science. What truly sets him apart IMO is his quality of execution, and his willingness to submit his body to such a gruelling (and gruesome!) workout in every match.
 
Props to MEP, great touch, placement and angles. Clearly phenomenal stamina. But the 4.5/ strong 4.0s I play would take all of those short, placeless balls and blast him off the court.

I think you might be overestimating your strong 4.0 friends: MEP has a winning record at 4.5. If your strong 4.0 friends had a winning record at 4.5, they'd not only be 4.5s, they'd be above-average 4.5s.
 
I find it hard to believe that a 4.5 with a winning record is A) unintentional about his strategy; and B) unaware that it exists.



There's one way to find out: @GSG: what say you?



My strategy is dead simple: attack the net and make my opponent prove he can consistently defeat my net game. If Plan A fails, then it necessarily gets more complicated as I'm dealing with something I'm less comfortable with and not as good at executing.
No. When he's on defense he floats the ball back to the middle of the court. Otherwise he's clearly hitting away from his opponents and making them run. It may not be "sophisticated," but it's a clear strategy. And effective.
A strategy doesn't necessarily have to be complicated (unless you consider EVERY strategy to be complicated, which I hope you don't). It can be simple and effective, like MEP's. No rocket science. What truly sets him apart IMO is his quality of execution, and his willingness to submit his body to such a gruelling (and gruesome!) workout in every match.



Well, that's my opinion from watching the first 3 minutes.



Agree or disagree with my observation??

1 Don't look like MEP care about serving close to the center mark to maximize the distance. If you don't care about such basic thing, would you care about more complex stuff?

2 Don't look like he taps the ball back specifically to opponent's BH or FH or a particular spot to take advantage of weakness. He simply taps it over.

3 Don't look like he intensifies his hitting and running to take advantage of time, athleticism or anything. He's playing ...I can hit the ball over. More times than you. That's the first rule of tennis.

4. Do you guys see two consecutive shots by MEP that show some sort of advancement, intelligence, like one to left corner, next shot to right corner; or 2nd shot wrong foot opponent?

(Btw, that's not to say MEP isn't good or not capable. Maybe he knows he just needs to play enough to win and that's his plan)


:laughing: :laughing:
 
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But the 4.5/ strong 4.0s I play would take all of those short, placeless balls and blast him off the court.
Nope, not happening. Now move the strong on the 4.5 side then I would have to think about it.
There is a reason they are 4.0, strong/weak/rising/falling doesn't matter.

I think you might be overestimating your strong 4.0 friends: MEP has a winning record at 4.5. If your strong 4.0 friends had a winning record at 4.5, they'd not only be 4.5s, they'd be above-average 4.5s.
Agree 110%
 
Different area than where MEP plays.
We haven’t had one of those ‘My area is better‘ discussions in a while. You should start one in the ‘Adult Leagues’ section as they are the rec league equivalent of never-ending GOAT discussions in the GPPD section. Highly entertaining usually!
 
IMO, MEP actually plays very smart and within his game. He plays percentage tennis.
When he is pulled wide he often lobs and just gets it back instead of going for a low percentage passing shot.

Also, a high lob, deep lob outdoors often keeps him in the point at the 4.0/4.5 level. Sometimes the opponent lets it bounce or misses the overhead. At the 4.0/4.5 level, not many can put away or hit firm high backhand volleys.

How many 4.0 players do you know that can hit a hard, well-placed overhead if the lob is high (and/or deep)?
Not even all 4.5 players can consistently put high lobs away. At the 5.0 level, the defensive lob becomes a worse option because the overheads are much better. Even so, sometimes, a lob is the best option when you are not in position to hit a good passing shot.
 
You'd be surprise how well this style does.
His UTR is 8.37, that's high 4.5 / low 5.0 according to UTR.
5.0s would have an easier time with a very solid net game.

How well? MEP loses on a fairly regular basis to other 4.5s. Not close at all to 5.0 IMHO. He lost to a 50 year old man that was badly out of shape in one match. Lost to this John guy.. I mean he is a solid 4.5 - but not more then that.. It's very impressive that he can play with a 3.0/3.5 style at the 4.5 level. But he is not beating league ranked 5.0s. The 4.5s that won tennis trolls little tournament would dominate him. So would Ian if the match ever happened.

FWIW you can absolutely crush him without a great net game. The woman that beat him wasn't exactly a net wizard.. And almost all 5.0 men would dominate her. Again that's not disrespect to her - she has solid game no doubt. It's just the truth.

(1) NTRP 5.0 - 76 league wins and former Division 1 college tennis player (Atlanta) - YouTube

I'd give ya 10 to 1 odds if he ever plays this guy..haha.
 
How well? MEP loses on a fairly regular basis to other 4.5s. Not close at all to 5.0 IMHO. He lost to a 50 year old man that was badly out of shape in one match. Lost to this John guy.. I mean he is a solid 4.5 - but not more then that.. It's very impressive that he can play with a 3.0/3.5 style at the 4.5 level. But he is not beating league ranked 5.0s. The 4.5s that won tennis trolls little tournament would dominate him. So would Ian if the match ever happened.

FWIW you can absolutely crush him without a great net game. The woman that beat him wasn't exactly a net wizard.. And almost all 5.0 men would dominate her. Again that's not disrespect to her - she has solid game no doubt. It's just the truth.

(1) NTRP 5.0 - 76 league wins and former Division 1 college tennis player (Atlanta) - YouTube

I'd give ya 10 to 1 odds if he ever plays this guy..haha.
So let me understand your point. You are not overly impressed with MEP guy because you think he would be easily defeated by that player in the link you provided. This one (per the description on youtube)
"NTRP 5.0 / USTA 5.0 tennis player in blue shirt has won 76 tennis league matches. He has been playing USTA 5.0 tennis since 2007 and played Division 1 tennis. He qualified for the main draw at 2 ATP Future tournaments. "
Well, gee, a MEP guy who picked up tennis in his (late?) 20s and had perhaps 10 hours of tennis instructions total in his life has no chance against the player who reached the main draw of ATP Future. Twice. I'm shocked, never would have guessed that.....
 
Too big of a discrepancy in levels.
Would be more interesting to see you play against a low ranked WTA player.
I agree. Matt says he is still over 10 in UTR and has reached a peak of 11 when he was younger while GSG is around 8.5. The #500 ranked WTA player is about a 12 and the #1000 ranked player might be around a 11. So, Matt against a #1000-ranked WTA player or good Div 1 woman might be a better match to watch.
 
Too big of a discrepancy in levels.
Would be more interesting to see you play against a low ranked WTA player.

I agree. Matt says he is still over 10 in UTR and has reached a peak of 11 when he was younger while GSG is around 8.5. The #500 ranked WTA player is about a 12 and the #1000 ranked player might be around a 11. So, Matt against a #1000-ranked WTA player or good Div 1 woman might be a better match to watch.

I'm a 9.7ish right now, but if I'm playing a lot, I think my level would be in the mid-10 range. I would probably be beaten decisively by a ranked WTA pro (UTR 11+), but I think I can hang with a few of the lower-ranked D1 women.

For the record, our club team guys used to play scrimmage matches against the varsity women's team at UCLA. Some of those guys were around UTR 10-11 and they could take out some of the lower ranked women on the roster.

I would love to make this happen as an experiment and wouldn't mind if they are willing to! I may get crushed but it'll be fun.
 
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I agree. Matt says he is still over 10 in UTR and has reached a peak of 11 when he was younger while GSG is around 8.5. The #500 ranked WTA player is about a 12 and the #1000 ranked player might be around a 11. So, Matt against a #1000-ranked WTA player or good Div 1 woman might be a better match to watch.
Sometimes I think matchups can make a difference. A guy with a good kick serve, wicked slice backhand and good dropshots might give an WTA player or d1 player more trouble than someone who wins mostly by consistency and does not have a big serve or any big weapons.
 
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