"Mind-boggling Developments" in the Nole-Rafa Rivalry

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Article from Peter Bodo today:

Mind-boggling developments in Djokovic's rout of Nadal

Novak Djokovic arrived in Beijing this year undefeated at the China Open in 25 matches. He left in the same untarnished condition Sunday, this time without dropping a set as he ran his streak to 29 matches capped by a wince-inducing 6-2, 6-2 win against career rival Rafael Nadal in the final.

The final made you wonder, whatever became of those epic, gut-wrenching, six-trips-to-the-bathroom matches these men used to play?

Two things occurred to change that, one of them mildly surprising, the other totally unexpected: Djokovic, already the equal on any given day of Nadal and Roger Federer et al, has gotten better in 2015. His statistics this year show it. (He won three Grand Slam titles and made the final in the major he didn't win.)

The mind-boggling development is that Nadal has gotten worse. A lot worse -- quickly.

Nadal once was Djokovic's nemesis. In fact, he rolled through Djokovic in this same city in 2008, on his way to the singles gold medal in the Olympic games. And Nadal still leads their head-to-head 23-22. But Nadal went into a tailspin after he took off most of the backside of 2014, and his comeback has been halting -- painfully, conspicuously, agonizingly and perhaps even career-threateningly so.

To his credit, before the final, Nadal told his ATP handlers: "I know today Novak is not in my league; he has been on a different level to me this year. So for me to be in the final is great news and tomorrow is a match to try to enjoy and try to play the way that I want to play, and we'll see."

What we saw is that Djokovic exerted complete control of the match, playing from on, or inside, the baseline. Nadal, meanwhile, often looked like a man impersonating the player once known as the "King of Clay."

The very first point of the match, with Nadal serving, produced a medium-length rally featuring great defense by Nadal, but penetrating, persistent stroking by Djokovic -- until the latter pulled the trigger on a sharp cross-court backhand that Nadal, at full stretch, barely ticked with his racket.

It was just a taste of things to come.

Nadal sometimes looked convincing, running east and west along the baseline, swinging his racket like a bolo, but he was mostly chasing and feeding. His shots too often lacked the critical, requisite degree of penetration. His return never really hurt Djokovic (credit Djokovic's underrated serve as well on that one), nor did the Nadal serve.

It's almost alarming, how easy Djokovic is making the game look these days. Traveling to Beijing in quest of his sixth China Open title, he give his co-coach Boris Becker the week off, and brought along his two brothers.

The trio went to visit the Great Wall. They probably brought fireworks and had fun setting them off, which is always a fun brother thing, right? Djokovic also took a wild card into the doubles to give one of his brothers, Djordje, a taste of the big time as a player. The pair actually won a match before eventual champs

Jack Sock and Vasek Pospisil issued a reality check.

If you made a movie of all this, it could be called "Djokovic Family Vacation."

But Djokovic was deadly serious on the court.

"Beast of Beijing" may not have the same regal ring -- or universal reach -- as "King of Clay," but it's difficult to come up with something catch-phrase based on hard-court excellence. It's too bad, because cement-based hard courts happen to be the most common surface on the ATP Tour, and they're one of the main reasons Djokovic is the dominant force in today's game. While Nadal leads the rivalry overall, Djokovic has a commanding hard-court lead -- now 11-6.

Djokovic will now try to pile on even more hard-court wins at the Shanghai Masters 1000, where he's a mere 19-3.

How about, "Sultan of Cement"?
http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/i...developments-novak-djokovic-rout-rafael-nadal
 
This is a good start. But journalist should dig even deeper in this 'Rafa got worse' issue. No player suddenly becomes weaker, slower and tires faster if his/her training routine remains the same and his/her health is better than before (no monthly injuries).
 
This is a good start. But journalist should dig even deeper in this 'Rafa got worse' issue. No player suddenly becomes weaker, slower and tires faster if his/her training routine remains the same and his/her health is better than before (no monthly injuries).

"Players can get worse" quickly. In fact, that is the norm. However "players getting better" from no top 10 wins to 3 majors over an year, is what is more puzzling
 
It's the same phenomena we have also witnessed with Federer, Murray and nearly every other player. Djokovic is in Nadal's head just like he is in their's. Therefore he tends to make his opponents play worse than they can or normally would. Take the Isner match for instance. Isner is normally an ace machine, that's his great strength and most feared weapon. But against Djokovic he could only manage a paltry 3. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse or, in Isner's case, serve worse. Take Nadal in that 1st set. He fought hard to get 2 breakback chances on Djokovic's serve and squandered them both with missed serves, powder puff strokes topped off with a shank. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse than he is capable of doing on big points. He has forgotten how to play Djokovic and how good he used to be against him.

To be competitive with Djokovic these days you have to have nerves of steel and make sure you don't make a pig's ear of any chances you get against him because they are bound to be few and far between although still not impossible to get.

Since winning the 2014 French Open against him, Nadal's confidence against Djokovic (and pretty nearly everyone else) has taken a nose-dive. The problem doesn't appear to be physical but mainly mental. He is just not the same player somehow and we need to know why?
 
It's the same phenomena we have also witnessed with Federer, Murray and nearly every other player. Djokovic is in Nadal's head just like he is in their's. Therefore he tends to make his opponents play worse than they can or normally would. Take the Isner match for instance. Isner is normally an ace machine, that's his great strength and most feared weapon. But against Djokovic he could only manage a paltry 3. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse or, in Isner's case, serve worse. Take Nadal in that 1st set. He fought hard to get 2 breakback chances on Djokovic's serve and squandered them both with missed serves, powder puff strokes topped off with a shank. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse than he is capable of doing on big points. He has forgotten how to play Djokovic and how good he used to be against him.

To be competitive with Djokovic these days you have to have nerves of steel and make sure you don't make a pig's ear of any chances you get against him because they are bound to be few and far between although still not impossible to get.

Since winning the 2014 French Open against him, Nadal's confidence against Djokovic (and pretty nearly everyone else) has taken a nose-dive. The problem doesn't appear to be physical but mainly mental. He is just not the same player somehow and we need to know why?
I daresay Novak's great tennis also has something to do with the situation Mainad! :)
 
It's the same phenomena we have also witnessed with Federer, Murray and nearly every other player. Djokovic is in Nadal's head just like he is in their's. Therefore he tends to make his opponents play worse than they can or normally would. Take the Isner match for instance. Isner is normally an ace machine, that's his great strength and most feared weapon. But against Djokovic he could only manage a paltry 3. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse or, in Isner's case, serve worse. Take Nadal in that 1st set. He fought hard to get 2 breakback chances on Djokovic's serve and squandered them both with missed serves, powder puff strokes topped off with a shank. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse than he is capable of doing on big points. He has forgotten how to play Djokovic and how good he used to be against him.

To be competitive with Djokovic these days you have to have nerves of steel and make sure you don't make a pig's ear of any chances you get against him because they are bound to be few and far between although still not impossible to get.

Since winning the 2014 French Open against him, Nadal's confidence against Djokovic (and pretty nearly everyone else) has taken a nose-dive. The problem doesn't appear to be physical but mainly mental. He is just not the same player somehow and we need to know why?

Or maybe Djokovic just isn't all that easy to ace....?
 
I daresay Novak's great tennis also has something to do with the situation Mainad! :)

But of course. It's Djokovic's game that is getting into his opponents' heads and making them play worse than they can. That's part of the secret of being the dominant player. In order to get there, you have to be good enough to make them fear you or at least be too nervous to play your best. That is what Djokovic is currently doing to most everybody else. It was especially striking to see him do it against both Isner and Nadal this week! :)
 
Sports journalism is the lowest form of writing. "Nadal will burn out early" until it's "nadal burns out outta nowhere !"
 
Or maybe Djokovic just isn't all that easy to ace....?

Frankly, I'm not sure what that means. Hitting an unreturnable serve speaks for itself. It should work as well against one player as against any other. The reason why that doesn't happen is obviously confidence and nerves. When a habitual ace machine like Isner sees Novak glaring at him across the other side of the net, he tends to lose both those and so he can't bring his biggest weapon to bear. That was made abundantly clear when we saw him struggle to serve properly against Djokovic the other day. That double fault on match point just seemed to sum things up in a nutshell!
 
You be sweet tennisaddict.
I think that some nadal fan said the other day that we will soon witnessing doping accusations more and more as player continues to play well.
Although I didn't know that openly stated doping accusations without proof are alowed by the site rules.
 
Frankly, I'm not sure what that means. Hitting an unreturnable serve speaks for itself. It should work as well against one player as against any other. The reason why that doesn't happen is obviously confidence and nerves. When a habitual ace machine like Isner sees Novak glaring at him across the other side of the net, he tends to lose both those and so he can't bring his biggest weapon to bear. That was made abundantly clear when we saw him struggle to serve properly against Djokovic the other day. That double fault on match point just seemed to sum things up in a nutshell!

Pretty simple. Djokovic is a better returner than anyone else Isner could potentially play, thus Djoker gets more serves back/gets his racquet on many of John's serves that would otherwise be aces against other players.
 
Or maybe Djokovic just isn't all that easy to ace....?

Agreed with this.

Isner actually had 80% first serves in, this is more than any other match he has played against Novak where Isner ranges from 65% - 75%+. But Novak's return was just unplayable in that match, all the returns were returning right next to his feet, Novak even hit a clean winner from one of Isner's serves. Yeah you could say Isner only played 45 serves but that's attributed to Novak returning the would be aces in any other match and ending the match quickly.

The only time Isner was a serve machine against Novak was Indian Wells 2012 where he hit 20 aces past Novak and won that match. But that sample size isn't enough to help the other 8 times Novak beat Isner and even then Isner ranges around 6-8 aces against Novak and Novak does the same in return.

That's expected from the best returner ever.
 
Pretty simple. Djokovic is a better returner than anyone else Isner could potentially play, thus Djoker gets more serves back/gets his racquet on many of John's serves that would otherwise be aces against other players.

Hmmm... the kind of aces I've seen Isner serve, nobody gets their racquets on them, not even Djokovic!
 
Since winning the 2014 French Open against him, Nadal's confidence against Djokovic (and pretty nearly everyone else) has taken a nose-dive. The problem doesn't appear to be physical but mainly mental. He is just not the same player somehow and we need to know why?

Yep, it's just mental with Nadal.

Once he actually decides to start winning again, he can have 3 or even 4 Slam seasons. The game is there, it's just the confidence that is lacking. And that confidence is coming slowly back, much to the dismay of the tour.

Once 2016 Australian Open rolls round, we will see peak Nadal again. "The best of Nadal is yet to come" - I don't think we've even really seen Nadal's peak yet.
 
This is a good start. But journalist should dig even deeper in this 'Rafa got worse' issue. No player suddenly becomes weaker, slower and tires faster if his/her training routine remains the same and his/her health is better than before (no monthly injuries).

Actually this happens to elite athletes all the time. Especially near 30. Heck, even Djokovic's return game numbers are down 5% from 2011.
 
No player suddenly becomes weaker, slower and tires faster if his/her training routine remains the same and his/her health is better than before

Then why aren't Borg, Lendl, Connors or Pete still ranked #1? I am excluding players like Boris, Stefan or Andre, all of whom had late-career back injuries which precluded them from training. I'll also toss out Mats, who fell off a cliff in terms of training after his stellar 1998 season.

Borg was training just as hard as he ever did in 1982 when he suddenly retired. You claim "no player becomes weaker, slower or more tired" if his training routine remains the same. Thus in your universe, Nole will continue to train 4-5 hours a day and should still be #1 in the year 2025.

Good to know.
 
Hmmm... the kind of aces I've seen Isner serve, nobody gets their racquets on them, not even Djokovic!

Absolutely this, there is no way that if Isner's serving at his best he's getting only 3 aces against Djokovic. You'd expect him to get more on such a day even if he had Djokovic and Murray standing side by side to return.

A high first serve percentage doesn't mean he was serving great.

People love to get hyped up and yeah Djokovic is great a great returner but come on. Think rationally about this.
 
It's the same phenomena we have also witnessed with Federer, Murray and nearly every other player. Djokovic is in Nadal's head just like he is in their's. Therefore he tends to make his opponents play worse than they can or normally would. Take the Isner match for instance. Isner is normally an ace machine, that's his great strength and most feared weapon. But against Djokovic he could only manage a paltry 3. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse or, in Isner's case, serve worse. Take Nadal in that 1st set. He fought hard to get 2 breakback chances on Djokovic's serve and squandered them both with missed serves, powder puff strokes topped off with a shank. Why? Because Djokovic is in his head and makes him play worse than he is capable of doing on big points. He has forgotten how to play Djokovic and how good he used to be against him.

To be competitive with Djokovic these days you have to have nerves of steel and make sure you don't make a pig's ear of any chances you get against him because they are bound to be few and far between although still not impossible to get.

Since winning the 2014 French Open against him, Nadal's confidence against Djokovic (and pretty nearly everyone else) has taken a nose-dive. The problem doesn't appear to be physical but mainly mental. He is just not the same player somehow and we need to know why?
Are you saying Djokovic is in the head of every big 4 member right now?
 
Also, here's what's happened to the Nadalovic rivalry:

Nadal has declined, Djokovic has stayed really, really good.

Not really mind-boggling.
 
Frankly, I'm not sure what that means. Hitting an unreturnable serve speaks for itself. It should work as well against one player as against any other. The reason why that doesn't happen is obviously confidence and nerves. When a habitual ace machine like Isner sees Novak glaring at him across the other side of the net, he tends to lose both those and so he can't bring his biggest weapon to bear. That was made abundantly clear when we saw him struggle to serve properly against Djokovic the other day. That double fault on match point just seemed to sum things up in a nutshell!
Isner didn't DF at match point. The match point was a service winner from Novak

 
The people now feigning astonishment about Nadal's decline are the same people who said 9-10 years ago that Nadal would burn out early. Talk about having your cake and eating it.
 
Remember back to the start of the year?
Karlovic beats Djokovic in 3 close sets.
I believe Djokovic has beaten Karlovic since and he certainly has got in to the heads of the other tour players.
Isner could not do what Karlovic could.
He can still be beaten of course. The others just gave to play out of their skin the whole match.
Karlovic & Warwrinka did just that.
Nadal played the best I've seen him play in a good long while.
It was heartening to see.
Came away with 4 games!
It was I feel closer than that score line but the critical points were won by Djokovic.
He really is some player right now!
I reckon he could have played better had he needed to!
He hardly broke sweat appearance wise.
 
Frankly, I'm not sure what that means. Hitting an unreturnable serve speaks for itself. It should work as well against one player as against any other. The reason why that doesn't happen is obviously confidence and nerves. When a habitual ace machine like Isner sees Novak glaring at him across the other side of the net, he tends to lose both those and so he can't bring his biggest weapon to bear. That was made abundantly clear when we saw him struggle to serve properly against Djokovic the other day. That double fault on match point just seemed to sum things up in a nutshell!

'Aura'... 'It should work as well against one player as against any other.'

Really? So there's no strategy involved in tennis? All serve placements are chosen equally against all oponents? All serves are equally risky? All players can be predicted the same way? All these factors never change?

Guys around here are really smart.

Then why aren't Borg, Lendl, Connors or Pete still ranked #1? I am excluding players like Boris, Stefan or Andre, all of whom had late-career back injuries which precluded them from training. I'll also toss out Mats, who fell off a cliff in terms of training after his stellar 1998 season.

Borg was training just as hard as he ever did in 1982 when he suddenly retired. You claim "no player becomes weaker, slower or more tired" if his training routine remains the same. Thus in your universe, Nole will continue to train 4-5 hours a day and should still be #1 in the year 2025.

Good to know.
It's good that people debate to obtain new knowledge and all that stuff, just be careful how you try to interpret and counterargument something.

Original statements:
- A training routine remains constant (X)
- Health remains the same or improved. (Y)
- A player gets worse (Z)
The argument was: A = if X and Y then ~Z.

You're attacking "B = if X then ~Z". Which is something no one said. A and B aren't logical equivalents. Be careful. You're comitting the common strawman fallacy.

Now, consider that, if Rafa improves in the future, your argument (unrelated to mine) will be even weaker, since he - according to you - can only get worse.
 
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