Mixed-doubles etiquette

[AggieJason]

I'm about to venture into the world of mixed-doubles for the first time. Playing in a 6.0 league. I'm a 3.0 playing with a 3.0 female. The rest of our team is 3.5 guys playing with 2.5 ladies and I find that to be fairly predominant throughout this league. So are there any "unwritten rules" about hitting to the 2.5's? I'm I not supposed to try to hit my hardest shots? Take something off my 1st serve?(not that it's that great anyways). I don't wanna "take something off" and then have a 3.5 male poach or whatever and just crush it. Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[stapletonj]

As a 3.0 male, just play your game. you will make enough errors on balls hit at you by the 3.5 male to make up for any winners you hit past the 2.5.

AS a 3.0, you really cant "control" your overheads enough to direct them away from the female, you should try, even if that costs you the point.

Even though it is a league, hit sitters and service returns away from (not trying for racket side hip) the female. IT is OK to hit the ball to her, just not at her if she is at the net in a vulnerable position

tournament or playoffs, different story.

 

[Dartagnan64]

At this level the ladies are rarely savvy enough to protect themselves so general tennis rules are off. Look at it as a chance to perfect your angled shots and controlled overheads rather than just trying to crater the ball at the woman's legs.

But feel free to go at the guys when the ladies put up sitters.

 

[OnTheLine]

If it is a social match, then yes, try as you can to not hit the 2.5 female, at least not hard.

However, this is league, your 3.0 female partner will in fact stab you if you let up at all. Not kidding. You will lose your partner if you try to not hit as hard as you normally do or you try to avoid the 2.5 female and lose the point because of it. Absolutely unforgivable.

You are best off *if you have control* working on placing the ball very well rather than power .... but if you don't have the control for that then just play your game as well as you can.

 

[Matthew ATX]

Hitting TO? No. You can pick on the 2.5 female. That's what you're supposed to do when playing a split level mixed team. As a 3.0 it'd be dumb to try to battle it out with the 3.5 guy on the other side.

General etiquette is more that you don't blast a groundie right AT her when she's at the net.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Hitting TO? No. You can pick on the 2.5 female. That's what you're supposed to do when playing a split level mixed team. As a 3.0 it'd be dumb to try to battle it out with the 3.5 guy on the other side.

General etiquette is more that you don't blast a groundie right AT her when she's at the net.

3.0 males really can't or at least shouldn't be blasting groundies.

I have no problem hitting ground strokes at the lower level women because I know my shots aren't that ferocious. But slamming sitters at their chest is a faux pas. That will get reprisals and bad feelings and makes for a very un-fun match. You just have to be sensible in mixed. If the woman seems capable of protecting herself, then don't worry too much. If not, be careful about blasting the ball.

In general learning controlled aggression is an important part of tennis. I've seen too many 3.0-3.5 men overhit and screw up the sitter when a more seasoned player will hit a far more controlled shot at an angle or down the middle for the easy point.

 

[Powderwombat]

My mixed strategy in 3 words - Aim At Woman

 

[jered]

3.5 man with a 2.5 woman is the weakest lineup. Scare her once or twice to start. After that she’ll duck or turn away whenever she sees you winding up and you don’t even have to hit it hard anymore. Easy win.

To be clear, I’m not advocating pegging her in the chest, so if you have no control you’ll need to decide how badly you want to win.

 

[Cawlin]

Hit.to.the.woman.

Any other "chivalry" based strategy will cause you frustration. Any chivalry based admonition from your opponents is designed to cause you frustration. All the women know what they're getting into when they join up for a mixed team. Some of those women will be planning on playing the "fragile me" card just to frustrate you, some of their male partners will be planning on playing the "take it easy on my fragile partner"card to frustrate you too - if they don't like it, or you don't like it, don't play mixed.

 

[Dartagnan64]

To be clear, I’m not advocating pegging her in the chest, so if you have no control you’ll need to decide how badly you want to win.

This is always the problem with the 2.5 women facing a 3.0 men. The lack of control and, especially amongst some young males, the need to crater every shot like you are claiming your territory. That combination is particularly bad news at low levels.

If you can't reliably hit a sitter low near the net persons feet then you probably should lay off the hammer until you can. Pegging a woman hard in the chest is one time too many.

Hit.to.the.woman.

Number one rule. Just don't head hunt the woman.

And TBH, there are plenty of women in my circles that will eat that strategy for breakfast. I was playing with my wife against a fellow and his wife. He was a 4.0 big FH type of guy. He kept trying to hit hard CC topspin FH's at my wife and she just stepped into NML and volleyed them back low over the net. Frustrated the heck out of him because he's used to winning those battles easily. She just never let his shots bounce.
That being said, 3.5 women that play a lot of mixed are pretty seasoned and know how to protect themselves. I've only encountered the deer in headlights amongst the 2.5 women. That's why I tend to preach a little caution. They may not have much mixed experience and may not exactly know what it's all about.

 

[Cashman]

This 'levels' based Mixed Doubles seems common in the US but you would not see much in my country. Generally both women and men gravitate towards partnering with someone equally skilled. As such there is less to be gained by specifically targeting the woman. In general I do not like playing doubles with a huge mix of abilities on the court. It makes for uneven play and puts the less-skilled players at risk.

That said, my general attitude is to play mixed the way I would play men's. Generally a player's position on the court and the nature of the best available shot will determine whether they are targeted more than their gender or skill level. I find this is better for my own game.

Playing with a good female partner, I have noticed that some men tend to start 'beating themselves' when they can't blow her off the court (particularly on their service games). Must be an ego thing.

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Yeah, most of the mixed strategy here is an unfortunate side effect of the way the USTA sets up mixed double leagues by rating. it would be very different if the players on court were more similar in skill.

 

[J B]

Hit.to.the.woman.

Any other "chivalry" based strategy will cause you frustration. Any chivalry based admonition from your opponents is designed to cause you frustration. All the women know what they're getting into when they join up for a mixed team. Some of those women will be planning on playing the "fragile me" card just to frustrate you, some of their male partners will be planning on playing the "take it easy on my fragile partner"card to frustrate you too - if they don't like it, or you don't like it, don't play mixed.

Agree, play this way and they will thank you as you are playing their game and they are better at their game than you are. They will sit at the net and dink your easy shots for winners all day, framing the first couple but as you feed them they will get better and you will possibly lose. Now I will not crush groundstrokes at weaker females, but I will move her around then start hitting to her weaker side with more and more spin, if it lasts more than 2 balls. Why because i am there to play and rallies are just fun.

 

[Cawlin]

Number one rule. Just don't head hunt the woman.

And TBH, there are plenty of women in my circles that will eat that strategy for breakfast. I was playing with my wife against a fellow and his wife. He was a 4.0 big FH type of guy. He kept trying to hit hard CC topspin FH's at my wife and she just stepped into NML and volleyed them back low over the net. Frustrated the heck out of him because he's used to winning those battles easily. She just never let his shots bounce.
That being said, 3.5 women that play a lot of mixed are pretty seasoned and know how to protect themselves. I've only encountered the deer in headlights amongst the 2.5 women. That's why I tend to preach a little caution. They may not have much mixed experience and may not exactly know what it's all about.

Absolutely agreed - I chose my words carefully there - I didn't say hit AT the woman... I never headhunt unless someone REALLY deserves it, and I've never found anyone that REALLY deserved it - man or woman.

As for caution with lower players, also very true - I'm sure you remember our discussion in a thread some months back about the woman going out of her way to step into the path of my overhead and me hitting her square on the forehead with it (she still brings this up pretty much every time we're on court, and has yet to acknowledge any of her own responsibility for the event).

Agree, play this way and they will thank you as you are playing their game and they are better at their game than you are. They will sit at the net and dink your easy shots for winners all day, framing the first couple but as you feed them they will get better and you will possibly lose. Now I will not crush groundstrokes at weaker females, but I will move her around then start hitting to her weaker side with more and more spin, if it lasts more than 2 balls. Why because i am there to play and rallies are just fun.

I guess I would have added one caveat - don't hit easy fluffy balls to the woman at the net - but I kind of assumed that was a given since it's kind of the cardinal rule of dubs anyway... however, I will also amend my advice slightly to say that if the woman is actually the better player, don't hit to her. You will find that situation to be rather rare in league mixed, but social mixed, probably not as rare.

 

[sureshs]

Mixed doubles etiquette for 3.5 men on this forum is not to serve at their usual 135 mph speeds against female returners.

 

[Cawlin]

Just played a mixed match this weekend with a very rusty partner. I got hit on 3 separate occasions all while I was up at the net - one was a net cord ball that took an unfortunate direction off the cord and caught me in the shoulder, the second was a mid court sitter that my partner hit to the opposing male and he Hulked out on it. He was setting up and aiming CC, that was plain to see, but wound up hitting me at the net... the ball hit my racquet hand, went straight up in the air about 15 or more feet, with so much backspin on it that it went over the net on their side by about a foot, and bounced back onto our side before they could reach it to touch it. They were unclear whether it hit my racket or not, and were still playing the point. I could have claimed the point, but I didn't feel right about that and conceded it as it did hit my hand on the racket handle, not my racket. The third was a volley hit by the opposing female into my chest, but it was completely set up by my partner who "cooperatively volleyed" the ball back to the woman at the net. She was surprised and so hit it where she could - but it all happened too fast for me to react to... two of the three were situations where my partner set me up to be a soccer goalie on a penalty kick. ~shrug~ That's dubs. If you're worried about getting hit, don't play. Admittedly the guy who went hulk on the ball was probably swinging too hard for the (lack of) control he had, but that particular shot of his would have gone in either way, just not where he intended it to.

During and after the match the opponent guy was profusely apologetic about his wild shot that hit me, finally I told him "Look man, it's cool, I know you didn't do it on purpose. I used to hit people intentionally with 85+ mph baseballs, if I couldn't take the chance of being hit with a tennis ball, what would that make me?"

Meanwhile, the opposing woman actually had pretty good hands and if you gave her a volley at the net anywhere from her hip to the top of her reach, she was going to put it away. This was a line 1 match, so the opponents were not newbs at all. So I just started ripping ground strokes - not "at" anyone, but low dippers with tons of TS, or heavy, high TS rockets up the middle. Like many women at this level, she could handle a reasonable amount of pace, but not if you put a lot of TS on it, and she absolutely could not handle slice at all.

So I fed her a steady diet of hard topspin to back her off the net, and then sliced the crap out of the ball to her deep in the court. At one point, the opponent male volleyed a deep ball almost past me on my forhand side. I caught up to it enough to hit a sweet topspin CC lob just out of his reach at the net. It never got more than 15 feet high at its apex. However, the feel was *just* right and as soon as I hit it, I just stood and watched because I knew the opponent woman wouldn't be able to handle it... sure enough, she got in the normal place to handle such a lob on her women's teams that would typically come with no appreciable spin on it, and the ball bounced a good foot and a half inside the baseline, but had so much top on it that it bounced clear over her head and out of the court.

As for serves, I could tell in the warmup that it wasn't going to be my best serving day ever, but not my worst either. I held my serve all match - had one DF, and 4 aces - aced the guy once out wide in the deuce court with a flat serve, aced the woman 3 times in the ad court, once with a hard flat serve up the T, and twice more with hard slices out wide. Got numerous free points off of her with my second serve kicker - which is why I knew she wouldn't handle my TS lob... I was serving pretty big, and bigger than my opponents, but not as big as I can on my best day, but I was holding serve, so no need to go for more.

My whole point about this is that you've got to exploit weakness in dubs if it's a league match - that's the name of the game. You don't have to be a monster and Hulk out on everything, but you don't have to back off either.

 

[kevrol]

Don't blast serves at the 2.5 and don't blast balls at her at the net. Start working on your lobs now. As for the person who said 3.5M/2.5F is the weakest pairing I completely disagree. There are 2.5Fs that can keep balls in play long enough for their 3.5M partner to find a winner. And the 3.5M can typically dictate play on just about every point his partner isn't receiving a serve. 3.5M with a solid 2.5F (no that isn't an oxymoron) is the way to win in mixed.

 

[tlsmikey]

This is interesting. I just played my first mixed doubles as well (9.0 mixed) and both sides were focusing on the woman (4.5 and 4.0) most of the match but neither of the guys broke out the big serve against the woman nor did we try to go after her at the net. I assumed this was common courtesy, but i'm curious if it will continue the whole season.

 

[Cawlin]

a solid 2.5F (no that isn't an oxymoron)

Yes, it really is an oxymoron. If they are "solid" then they aren't a 2.5, and if they're "consistent" they're either a) not really a 2.5, or b) the opponents are hitting gently and soft to them (possibly out of some sort of chivalry-based foolishness). This does not apply for someone who maybe started the season legitimately as a 2.5 but is very athletic, is taking lessons, and playing all the time and is really a 3.0 that hasn't been bumped yet because they're hiding behind a 3.5 at the lower lines of dubs (same goes for the 3.5 on the verge of a bump i.e. that's not really "legit").

If it'a 3.5/2.5 pairing against a 3.5/2.5 pairing the team that wins the match most often will be whichever team hits to the opposing 2.5 first and most often. If it's 3.5M/2.5F vs. 3.5F/2.5M, the 3.5M/2.5F pairing should win the majority of the time as the 3.5M is likely to be stronger than the 3.5F and even though the 2.5M is stronger than the 2.5F, the 2.5M still isn't consistent enough to make as much difference.

If it's a 3.0/3.0 vs. 3.5/2.5 then still, the 3.0s have the slight if they hit to the 2.5 first and most often. At 3.0 though, they may not have enough control to do that as often, but the odds are still in their favor of winning if the opponents are legitimately 3.5 and 2.5.

 

[Dartagnan64]

This is interesting. I just played my first mixed doubles as well (9.0 mixed) and both sides were focusing on the woman (4.5 and 4.0) most of the match but neither of the guys broke out the big serve against the woman nor did we try to go after her at the net. I assumed this was common courtesy, but i'm curious if it will continue the whole season.

Many women can actually handle hard serves but struggle with spin serves. It's very common strategy to hit slice and kick at women and easily win those points. Unless you can really place your flat serve many women in mixed can just stick out their rackets and redirect the pace.

 

[Cawlin]

This is interesting. I just played my first mixed doubles as well (9.0 mixed) and both sides were focusing on the woman (4.5 and 4.0) most of the match but neither of the guys broke out the big serve against the woman nor did we try to go after her at the net. I assumed this was common courtesy, but i'm curious if it will continue the whole season.

Were the women returning the serves or were the servers getting free points/aces/easy setups for their partner by serving their not-so-big serves to the women? Because if they were holding their serves, by not hitting big to the women, then there was no need to hit big, right?

As for not going after the women at the net, I'm not sure what you mean by that - do you mean "drilling the ball at them as hard as you can" or do you mean, hitting dippers and/or trying to pass them? If people are trying to drill the net player as hard as they can, that doesn't really fly whether it's a man or a woman, but certainly, if playing mixed, I'm not going to work as hard to avoid the woman at the net until she proves to me that I need to.

Again, I think that everyone knows what they're getting into with league mixed play, and nobody should expect special treatment in such matches. Nobody should expect their opponent to be Ivan Lendl either, but that's a pretty easy distinction to make, no?

 

[Cawlin]

Many women can actually handle hard serves but struggle with spin serves. It's very common strategy to hit slice and kick at women and easily win those points. Unless you can really place your flat serve many women in mixed can just stick out their rackets and redirect the pace.

This has also been my experience. Though I will say that when a woman gets one of my serves back with a two weeks late swing or a double hit that does something like hit the net cord and drop in for a miracle winner, or that flares off at an impossible angle and then bounces in a totally different direction because it has 5k random RPMs on it because I hit her frame with it, and becomes another total accident winner, she's getting something a little nastier to chew on the next time if I have it to send her way. Of course, the same goes for a male returner, at least in my book. If I think you got lucky returning my serve, I'm going to try to make you prove it wasn't luck.

 

[Cawlin]

I've been wavering about whether or not to post this, because I'm sure that people will misconstrue it, and those who are intent on finding misogyny will do so, but so be it...

After playing my mixed match this Saturday, on Sunday morning I went to my wife's USTA women's dubs match. Many of the women on that team are also on Mixed teams in my division - my team has squared off against almost every woman on that team, and my wife has been playing with them for a while, so I know most of them well enough for hugs and kind words at the supermarket and/or to share a beer with... but I have to tell you that I was so very surprised to hear some of their complaints about mixed. I need it to be known that I respect women playing tennis as much as I respect men - as long as they're actually trying to improve their games and not being unsportsmanlike, I will never denigrate their efforts and will happily support them, cheer them on, fetch water and errant balls during matches, you name it, I'm 100% behind all of those rec players that are just out there, like me, trying to do their best, and giving it decent effort.

So anyway, I was chitchatting with several of these women as they waited for their matches and I found an odd bit of hypocrisy coming from them...

One of the opposing women showed up pregnant, all the women oohed and ahhhed about it (she's 26 weeks along, having a boy, already has 2 boys and 2 girls - never let it be said that men (or at least this man) don't pay attention when women are talking). So when the pregnant woman was out of earshot, all the women began to share their stories of playing various matches against pregnant women - every one of those stories from several different women were about pregnant women stepping onto the tennis court for singles, mixed, or women's dubs and acting like princesses - from one pregnant woman screaming when a woman bounced her the ball over the net between points and it errantly hitting her in her belly, to pregnant women announcing at the start of the match not to hit the ball AT them because they were pregnant, to their husbands going ballistic in mixed matches when he thought opponents were hitting too close to his pregnant wife on the court. All of these women spoke with disdain for this sort of behavior and I (for a change) just kept my mouth shut and my opinions to myself. They all seemed to be of the opinion that "Who cares if you're pregnant, if you step onto the court, you're there to play tennis, and shouldn't get any particular special treatment!" I happen to agree with this perspective and should note that in general, I don't hit AT anyone above the waist, and when I do hit "at" a person, it's almost always when I'm at the net and they're in the path of my highest percentage volley, or they're in NML and I'll be hitting at their feet/legs.

The conversation moved on a bit, and these women began to express their disdain for mixed dubs and the way some men (in their experience, apparently) behave. They spoke with great contempt for men in mixed who crater overheads, or hit big serves, or rip ground strokes, or hit drop shots. As I said, I knew most of these women and I've seen them play at levels from 3.0 to 4.0 in mixed. I know for a certain fact that they're happy as 3.0 and almost 3.5 women to have their 4.0 male partners crater overheads and rip ground strokes or blazing serves and/or to drop shot the ball well out of their opponents' conceivable reach. Yet they were using the harshest of language for their opponents who did the same to them, punctuating their rants with remarks like "OK, buddy, I know you can hit the ball that hard, but you don't have to hit it hard near me..." and "I know you have a big serve, but do you really have to blast it to ME? I have no chance to return that, is that really fun for you?" and on and on and on with that sort of thing...

So on one hand, they thought pregnant women asking for special treatment were pimadonna princesses, but failed to see themselves this way when they were asking for the same sort of special treatement.

Again, I kept my mouth shut for the whole conversation (hugely uncharacteristic of me, btw).

Certainly I know that some men will attempt to intimidate women in mixed, and certainly I know that some women will attempt to game men by playing their "princess" card... and I say screw all of that. Play your shots that give you the legitimately best chance of winning (if you can't control your "100% Hulk SMASH" groundstrokes, that shot isn't your legitimately best chance to win). Everyone needs to know what they're getting into when they step on a mixed court, and if someone isn't up for that, then they shouldn't play mixed. I guarantee you those guys who try to intimidate women by hitting the ball hard also try to intimidate men by hitting the ball hard...

Etiquette in a general sense matters, of course - all the usual "Friend at Court" stuff and so forth, but I don't see a reason in a league match, to give special treatment to anyone, for any reason. My coach told me a story about a pretty serious tennis match maybe at D1/D2 college level, I can't remember exactly (but it was not between a bunch of 3.5 rec scrubs like me) where one of the woman came out with a cast on her lower leg - a legit, fiberglass walking cast with a walking guard built into it on the bottom. He said the opposing team were actually losing the first set 0-4 because they were afraid to hit to the woman with the cast and were going through heroics to avoid her - hitting the ball out, hitting easy shots to her partner, etc. Finally, they got their heads out of their butts and began to hit to her. After the opponents came back and won the first set 6-4, the team with the woman in the cast finally retired... come on, man!

 

[OnTheLine]

I've been wavering about whether or not to post this, because I'm sure that people will misconstrue it, and those who are intent on finding misogyny will do so, but so be it...

After playing my mixed match this Saturday, on Sunday morning I went to my wife's USTA women's dubs match. Many of the women on that team are also on Mixed teams in my division - my team has squared off against almost every woman on that team, and my wife has been playing with them for a while, so I know most of them well enough for hugs and kind words at the supermarket and/or to share a beer with... but I have to tell you that I was so very surprised to hear some of their complaints about mixed. I need it to be known that I respect women playing tennis as much as I respect men - as long as they're actually trying to improve their games and not being unsportsmanlike, I will never denigrate their efforts and will happily support them, cheer them on, fetch water and errant balls during matches, you name it, I'm 100% behind all of those rec players that are just out there, like me, trying to do their best, and giving it decent effort.

So anyway, I was chitchatting with several of these women as they waited for their matches and I found an odd bit of hypocrisy coming from them...

One of the opposing women showed up pregnant, all the women oohed and ahhhed about it (she's 26 weeks along, having a boy, already has 2 boys and 2 girls - never let it be said that men (or at least this man) don't pay attention when women are talking). So when the pregnant woman was out of earshot, all the women began to share their stories of playing various matches against pregnant women - every one of those stories from several different women were about pregnant women stepping onto the tennis court for singles, mixed, or women's dubs and acting like princesses - from one pregnant woman screaming when a woman bounced her the ball over the net between points and it errantly hitting her in her belly, to pregnant women announcing at the start of the match not to hit the ball AT them because they were pregnant, to their husbands going ballistic in mixed matches when he thought opponents were hitting too close to his pregnant wife on the court. All of these women spoke with disdain for this sort of behavior and I (for a change) just kept my mouth shut and my opinions to myself. They all seemed to be of the opinion that "Who cares if you're pregnant, if you step onto the court, you're there to play tennis, and shouldn't get any particular special treatment!" I happen to agree with this perspective and should note that in general, I don't hit AT anyone above the waist, and when I do hit "at" a person, it's almost always when I'm at the net and they're in the path of my highest percentage volley, or they're in NML and I'll be hitting at their feet/legs.

The conversation moved on a bit, and these women began to express their disdain for mixed dubs and the way some men (in their experience, apparently) behave. They spoke with great contempt for men in mixed who crater overheads, or hit big serves, or rip ground strokes, or hit drop shots. As I said, I knew most of these women and I've seen them play at levels from 3.0 to 4.0 in mixed. I know for a certain fact that they're happy as 3.0 and almost 3.5 women to have their 4.0 male partners crater overheads and rip ground strokes or blazing serves and/or to drop shot the ball well out of their opponents' conceivable reach. Yet they were using the harshest of language for their opponents who did the same to them, punctuating their rants with remarks like "OK, buddy, I know you can hit the ball that hard, but you don't have to hit it hard near me..." and "I know you have a big serve, but do you really have to blast it to ME? I have no chance to return that, is that really fun for you?" and on and on and on with that sort of thing...

So on one hand, they thought pregnant women asking for special treatment were pimadonna princesses, but failed to see themselves this way when they were asking for the same sort of special treatement.

Again, I kept my mouth shut for the whole conversation (hugely uncharacteristic of me, btw).

Certainly I know that some men will attempt to intimidate women in mixed, and certainly I know that some women will attempt to game men by playing their "princess" card... and I say screw all of that. Play your shots that give you the legitimately best chance of winning (if you can't control your "100% Hulk SMASH" groundstrokes, that shot isn't your legitimately best chance to win). Everyone needs to know what they're getting into when they step on a mixed court, and if someone isn't up for that, then they shouldn't play mixed. I guarantee you those guys who try to intimidate women by hitting the ball hard also try to intimidate men by hitting the ball hard...

Etiquette in a general sense matters, of course - all the usual "Friend at Court" stuff and so forth, but I don't see a reason in a league match, to give special treatment to anyone, for any reason. My coach told me a story about a pretty serious tennis match maybe at D1/D2 college level, I can't remember exactly (but it was not between a bunch of 3.5 rec scrubs like me) where one of the woman came out with a cast on her lower leg - a legit, fiberglass walking cast with a walking guard built into it on the bottom. He said the opposing team were actually losing the first set 0-4 because they were afraid to hit to the woman with the cast and were going through heroics to avoid her - hitting the ball out, hitting easy shots to her partner, etc. Finally, they got their heads out of their butts and began to hit to her. After the opponents came back and won the first set 6-5, the team with the woman in the cast finally retired... come on, man!

I think there are a few things going on here.
First, didn't you say your wife's team was 2.5? I am almost 100% certain that was the case 3 or so months ago, when you wanted to put together an "intro to tennis" handbook and pointers and learn about the rules clinic .....

... so these are bare beginners ..... I give a lot of leeway to bare beginners to say all kinds of stupid stuff. If they suddenly all became 3.0s (almost 3.5s) in the middle of the year ... then as a group they should be banned for whining about anything legal that happens on the court. None of them with that attitude would be on one of my teams, even when I was captaining at 3.0. Play the sport or get off the court and pick up something gentle that you can handle.

Second. You are in the south. People in the south are a special breed. Basically never confront someone to their face, only speak behind their backs or sideways ("bless her heart"). I have been on the court in 2 instances where a pregnant opponentwas playing. One was not showing the other at close to term (over 34 weeks). In both cases I was my normal Yankee self and was up front ... Hey, I see you are not a little pregnant .... if you are looking for special accommodations, you may wish to sub yourself out. There was one mention of being targeted at net .... my response, "girl it was your choice to step on the court in your condition. Either play the sport or retire now. It really isn't fair to any of us here" She chose to retire.

 

[milk of amnesia]

"...but I don't see a reason in a league match, to give special treatment to anyone, for any reason..."

I completely agree with this and every time someone asks for special treatment my go-to line it this: "It is completely inappropriate to ask for special accommodations in a league match as all players should be playing under the same conditions, therefore I (we) will not be accommodating you . Did you want to resign now or play by the rules like everyone else?" Needless to say, people get upset with that response but those people are in the wrong as they should have had the decency to never have asked in the first place.

 

[Cawlin]

I think there are a few things going on here.
First, didn't you say your wife's team was 2.5? I am almost 100% certain that was the case 3 or so months ago, when you wanted to put together an "intro to tennis" handbook and pointers and learn about the rules clinic .....

... so these are bare beginners ..... I give a lot of leeway to bare beginners to say all kinds of stupid stuff. If they suddenly all became 3.0s (almost 3.5s) in the middle of the year ... then as a group they should be banned for whining about anything legal that happens on the court. None of them with that attitude would be on one of my teams, even when I was captaining at 3.0. Play the sport or get off the court and pick up something gentle that you can handle.

Second. You are in the south. People in the south are a special breed. Basically never confront someone to their face, only speak behind their backs or sideways ("bless her heart"). I have been on the court in 2 instances where a pregnant opponentwas playing. One was not showing the other at close to term (over 34 weeks). In both cases I was my normal Yankee self and was up front ... Hey, I see you are not a little pregnant .... if you are looking for special accommodations, you may wish to sub yourself out. There was one mention of being targeted at net .... my response, "girl it was your choice to step on the court in your condition. Either play the sport or retire now. It really isn't fair to any of us here" She chose to retire.

Ah yeah... I see the issue here... my own lack of clarity... So buckle up for this crazy explanation... Right now, my wife is on 3 separate teams - an ALTA Mixed team - plays on Saturdays ("My Team") that I captain out of our subdivision, an ALTA Senior Women's team ("Her Team") that plays on Thursday nights that she captains out of our subdivision, a 3.0 USTA team (captained by another person we know out of a nearby subdivision), and a T2 (think Flex League) mixed team that is just her and one of the 3.0 guys on our mixed team. Me and this guy's wife go to their matches and drink beer and toot our vuvuzelas when either side makes a good point, etc.

In total honesty, if my wife would stop doing so much match play (3 to 4 matches per week, 3 days of point play practice for those teams, and maybe a single one hour lesson per week, with at most 2 or 3 hours of straight drilling/practice time per week, she could probably be a legit 3.5 by next summer... but she has the bug and even though plantar fasciitis, mild tennis elbow, and general exhaustion are holding her development back AND match performance back lately, she can't make herself reduce the number of teams she plays on. I advise her as best as I can, but she's her own person, so I just support her in what she wants to do and go cheer her on. She's not as tolerant of drilling/practice as I am and prefers the slower path to progression that matches offer her to the faster but more boring path of a better balance between instruction/drilling/practice vs. match play.

So, with that said, the team you're referring to from our discusison a few months back was indeed about a 2.5 level team, though it's ALTA, so they're rated as C-1 - and that is really a bit high for them - they should be C-3 or C-4, but because they have a couple 3.0 players (my wife and 2 or 3 others) and the rest are 2.5s at best, they can't drop lower per ALTA's rules. I think you must be aware of the lack of parity between legit USTA ranking and ALTA ranking, no? THat particular team is a completely different team than the one I'm talking about in this post above.

Anyway, the team I'm talking about in this post immeidately above is my wife's USTA 3.0 team - which has NONE of the women from her Senior or Sunday women's teams that are captained out of this subdivision. THAT particular team has at least one STRONG woman whom I reckon to be closer to 4.0 than 3.5 (this is her first season playing USTA apparently, and she was on the singles court winning her match while these discussions were going on). I am surprised this woman hasn't been bumped already based on her performance (I've seen her play VERY competitively and strong at line 1 in mixed - she's a darn good player), but again, I'm not very familiar with the way USTA operates, and especially not in this region. Anyway, the rest of the women on this USTA 3.0 team are all pretty close to legit 3.0s, my wife and 2 others are probably on the high side of 3.0, but probably not ready for a bump, and the rest are either high 2.5 or low 3.0. So... most of these women have been playing for 3+ years (my wife is the newest one I believe who picked up a racket for the first time in January 2017), some have played 5 or 10 years. They all should know better, and all have played numerous seasons on ALTA mixed teams, though, I don't think any have played any USTA combo/mixed teams, and for most of them this is their first USTA team.

They are mostly people that I like and respect, but sometimes they say some things that I just choose not to factor into my opinion of them. I am sure they probably do the same for me It is, as you mentioned, the South after all; bless all our hearts

FYI, this sort of "keep my mouth shut" behavior of mine took some considerable adjustment for me. I was a Yankee that lived the first 42 years of my life nort of the Manson-Nixon line...

 

[jm1980]

3.5 man with a 2.5 woman is the weakest lineup. Scare her once or twice to start. After that she’ll duck or turn away whenever she sees you winding up and you don’t even have to hit it hard anymore. Easy win.

Uh, I'm pretty sure this is the strongest lineup in 6.0

 

[Legend of Borg]

don't go after the woman but it's ok to smash a full speed overhead at the guy and generally go after him?

soft misandry always was and always will be alive in this species

some call it chivalry or "white knighting"

 

[AggieJason]

In singles, when a guy comes to the net, I might try to hit it at him. Body shot are had to handle no?

 

[Cawlin]

In singles, when a guy comes to the net, I might try to hit it at him. Body shot are had to handle no?

Yeah, of course, there is a certain reasonable etiquette for it though - if the net player is smack in the middle of your highest percentage shot location, then they ought to expect the ball to come towards them... however, unleashing a HULK SMASH shot right at their head is somewhat frowned upon, whether it's at a man or at a woman... putting it at their feet/legs is reasonable though.

The problem is that at the rec level, 4.0 and below the players generally have such a low level of control that they're as likely to hit a player they don't intend to, or miss a player they're trying to if they hit a full strength "HULK SMASH" shot... so where do you draw the line?

If someone sets up an easy overhead, I don't see a problem with someone trying to crater it, though in general, I don't hit overheads as hard as I possibly can because I'm a 3.5 and swinging that hard might make me miss the "gimme" point - so I will line up and aim for some open space and hit it only as hard as I feel like I need to - and even then, if you step into my line of fire as I'm swinging, I won't be very successful at avoiding you at the last moment - I know, I've tried. Does that mean that I should avoid hitting the overhead, or does it mean that if you're my opponent and see me going for an overhead, you have to make a decision about whether to try to step in the way of it and take the consequences, or back off to protect yourself?

If you let people get away with floating easy kills to the net player in a dubs match and don't put those away, you're only hurting your own chances of winning... so put them away - as forcefully as you can, while still being responsibly safe about it. Accidents do happen, but that's all part of the game.

 

[Dartagnan64]

If you watch high level dubs, no one craters balls into opponents, except in the rarest of circumstances. They all have sufficient control to just hit away from everyone with moderate controlled aggression. It seems the world of 3.0-3.5 is the worst for the "hitting hard at people".

Hit the overhead only as forcefully as you need, not as forcefully as you can. Same thing with groundstrokes, why hammer a flat groundstroke into a girls belly when you can just hit a dipping shot past her that will win the point just as easily?

 

[Cawlin]

If you watch high level dubs, no one craters balls into opponents, except in the rarest of circumstances. They all have sufficient control to just hit away from everyone with moderate controlled aggression. It seems the world of 3.0-3.5 is the worst for the "hitting hard at people".

Hit the overhead only as forcefully as you need, not as forcefully as you can. Same thing with groundstrokes, why hammer a flat groundstroke into a girls belly when you can just hit a dipping shot past her that will win the point just as easily?

Agreed... but sometimes the dipper gets mishit as a flat shot into someone's belly... but those are accidents, and they are to be expected. The thing many people don't understand is that RHS is required to hit the dipper, and if your technique is off, it can easily become a flat shot that goes much harder than you intended, and not in the direction you intended either.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Agreed... but sometimes the dipper gets mishit as a flat shot into someone's belly... but those are accidents, and they are to be expected. The thing many people don't understand is that RHS is required to hit the dipper, and if your technique is off, it can easily become a flat shot that goes much harder than you intended, and not in the direction you intended either.

Generally a mishit dipper sails and goes long so hopefully the net person is smart enough to duck.

But yeah, accidents happen. Just apologize and move on. In our club tournament I hit a swinging volley into the net guys chest really hard. I wasn't even looking at him since I never hit swinging volleys much I was so focused on not missing the ball and hit it safely down the middle. He'd moved that way reading my shot and took it square in the chest. I apologized and we accepted accidents happen.

 

[zaskar1]

I'm about to venture into the world of mixed-doubles for the first time. Playing in a 6.0 league. I'm a 3.0 playing with a 3.0 female. The rest of our team is 3.5 guys playing with 2.5 ladies and I find that to be fairly predominant throughout this league. So are there any "unwritten rules" about hitting to the 2.5's? I'm I not supposed to try to hit my hardest shots? Take something off my 1st serve?(not that it's that great anyways). I don't wanna "take something off" and then have a 3.5 male poach or whatever and just crush it. Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks!

AJ
as far as the serve goes, just hit your normal serves, if they cant hit a 3.0 serve back, so be it.
same to be said for the groundstrokes and volleys, this is competition, not social.
in competitive doubles, you always hit to the weaker partner, and make them beat you. you will definitely lose if you hit
to the strengths.

in social games you can hit choose not to hit any balls to the 2.5 person, and let the 3.5 person beat you.
z

 

[jered]

Uh, I'm pretty sure this is the strongest lineup in 6.0

Not in my experience. 3.5 woman with a 2.5 man is the strongest because of the more balanced skill. Tends to win the most often in the leagues I’ve been in.

 

[blablavla]

I'm about to venture into the world of mixed-doubles for the first time. Playing in a 6.0 league. I'm a 3.0 playing with a 3.0 female. The rest of our team is 3.5 guys playing with 2.5 ladies and I find that to be fairly predominant throughout this league. So are there any "unwritten rules" about hitting to the 2.5's? I'm I not supposed to try to hit my hardest shots? Take something off my 1st serve?(not that it's that great anyways). I don't wanna "take something off" and then have a 3.5 male poach or whatever and just crush it. Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks!

I guess it depends a lot whether it is a social event or a "serious competition".
For social events I hardly see good players blast all they can vs weaker opponents. There is no need to prove you can blast a ball, people know it. There is no need to win every point, every game.

However, if you play a competitive match, then I guess pretty much everyone knows: you are friends outside of the court, on the court you are opponents.
As long as your opponents can handle it.

 

[J B]

I forgot to add, Build the point with the 2.5 if you want. They will make a mistake so dont crush it right away if she is the baseliner just build the point and add pace

 

[Cawlin]

My mixed team has no 3.5 females on it. Only 3.0, 2.5, and maybe even a 2.0 or two. For males we have a couple 4.0s, three 3.5s, and the rest 3.0 and a couple 2.5s. This is ALTA mixed dubs tennis so it doesn't have the same sort of level restrictions that USTA has and it's a huge roster - long story - just trust me.

As a 3.5 male, I go out and hit with some of the lower level players on my mixed dubs team during weekly practices (head to head line play with various partners) as I did last night, like I do most weeks, I have a pretty good perspective on what this is all about. The 2.5 players cannot be relied upon to return more than 2 balls in a row unless they are to/from the other 2.5 players, and then it's a 50/50 proposition. If a 3.5 male hits to a 2.5 male or female player with any pace or significant angle/spin, the error chance from the 2.5 raises to more like 9 out of 10.

As the 3.5 male in such a pairing with a 2.5 player, I know a couple things:

1) Every ball I touch has to be either a winner or an offensive shot or else the other team is going to hit the next shot to my 2.5 partner.
2) Every time my 2.5 partner touches the ball, the likelihood of the point being won by the other team increases dramatically - either by virtue of the 2.5 blowing the shot out or into the net, or by virtue of the 2.5 fluffing up an easy kill to the person at the net.
3) If I am not hitting aces and free points on my serve, the likelihood of holding my serve with a 2.5 partner is about 20%.
4) Two 3.0 players will be good enough to keep the ball away from me about 3/4ths of the time and hit it exclusively to my 2.5 partner until my 2.5 partner either hits the ball out/into the net, or right to their net for a putaway - they only need to do that for 2 or 3 shots to win 90% of the time against the 2.5.
5) I am a soccer goalie on a penalty kick as the non serving partner with a 2.5 server who is serving to a 3.5 player - the serves are so slow and so simple to handle, that if I try to poach, the returner can easily go DTL, if I cover the line, they send a burner back up the middle that my 2.5 will flub, if I stay back, they drop shot the return for a winner.
6) Ultimately all of the above apply to the other team if they are similarly constructed and the outcome is entirely predicated on which team hits to the 2.5 first and most often.

 

[kevrol]

As the 3.5 male in such a pairing with a 2.5 player, I know a couple things:

1) Every ball I touch has to be either a winner or an offensive shot or else the other team is going to hit the next shot to my 2.5 partner.
2) Every time my 2.5 partner touches the ball, the likelihood of the point being won by the other team increases dramatically - either by virtue of the 2.5 blowing the shot out or into the net, or by virtue of the 2.5 fluffing up an easy kill to the person at the net.
3) If I am not hitting aces and free points on my serve, the likelihood of holding my serve with a 2.5 partner is about 20%.
4) Two 3.0 players will be good enough to keep the ball away from me about 3/4ths of the time and hit it exclusively to my 2.5 partner until my 2.5 partner either hits the ball out/into the net, or right to their net for a putaway - they only need to do that for 2 or 3 shots to win 90% of the time against the 2.5.
5) I am a soccer goalie on a penalty kick as the non serving partner with a 2.5 server who is serving to a 3.5 player - the serves are so slow and so simple to handle, that if I try to poach, the returner can easily go DTL, if I cover the line, they send a burner back up the middle that my 2.5 will flub, if I stay back, they drop shot the return for a winner.
6) Ultimately all of the above apply to the other team if they are similarly constructed and the outcome is entirely predicated on which team hits to the 2.5 first and most often.

IMO if all that is true you are not being aggressive enough. As a male 3.5 playing 6.0 mixed you should win your serve >80% of the time.

 

[Dartagnan64]

IMO if all that is true you are not being aggressive enough. As a male 3.5 playing 6.0 mixed you should win your serve >80% of the time.

What you most likely will experience is long deuce games. You'll win the points to the weaker player's side and lose to the stronger players side. When i've played against heavily imbalanced pairings with a 2.5 at the net, I've taken every return at the 2.5 and won it as a returner 9 out of 10 times. You actually have to get the 2.5 to stand in that ignominious position right on top of the net in the doubles alley to have a chance. You can't let them touch the ball from any other spot on the court.

 

[Cawlin]

IMO if all that is true you are not being aggressive enough. As a male 3.5 playing 6.0 mixed you should win your serve >80% of the time.

If you're serving aces and unreturned serves, I agree... otherwise this is BS. If you're not getting that big first serve in for an ace/winner on a given day and either have to back it off or are hitting second serves, the 3.0 or 3.5 will likely be able to just return it to your partner, or in your partner's direction, and they will do so with almost complete lack of concern because your 2.5 partner will fluff it back to the net player, blow the shot entirely, or just not even play the ball, and if you're not ready to scramble to 3 feet behind them after your serve, you're out of luck.

What you most likely will experience is long deuce games. You'll win the points to the weaker player's side and lose to the stronger players side. When i've played against heavily imbalanced pairings with a 2.5 at the net, I've taken every return at the 2.5 and won it as a returner 9 out of 10 times. You actually have to get the 2.5 to stand in that ignominious position right on top of the net in the doubles alley to have a chance. You can't let them touch the ball from any other spot on the court.

This has been my experience as well, though instead, I stand them back at the baseline near the alley... and in truth, I am sick to death of having to play that way, so I don't play in league mixed matches anymore unless it's a situation where we will forfeit the line if I don't play.

 

[J B]

Cawlin, thanks for the comment on losing 80% of the serves with a 2.5. You are 100% right if you have a 3.0 minus your chances increase to maybe 30%. The pros are doing well to get over 60% of their flat first serves in so to think every first is going to be in is just a reach. I read somewhere that doubles you should get 80% of your first in. 80%!! if im that good im not going to be at whatever level i am for long and I should be playing singles UNLESS its a pattycake floater. Even a good kick serve thats hard would win you plenty against 4.0 and below and some 4.5s I played with an at best 3.0 MINUS and she gave away every point that was returned on my serve. Didnt matter if i served the 3.0 or the 4.0. I either won out or we went to duece. The rally was fun till they figured out to hit to her. On a side note when i was at the net on the ones she got to would be sent back but right to strike zones, so fake poaching wouldnt save me from DTL. If I tied her to the net it was still a 50/50 proposition.

 

[Cawlin]

As my coaches all have said - they don't call it "Mixed Troubles" for nothing...

 

[Cawlin]

I read somewhere that doubles you should get 80% of your first in. 80%!!

I've seen some commentary from Martina Navratilova on this specific thing actually. Martina says that first and foremost in dubs, as the server, you need to get your first serve in - even if that means backing it off a bit - if for no other reason than the psychological effect on the receiving team of not getting a "breather" as they are now looking at a second serve.

However, I'm also assuming that Martina wasn't giving commentary on how to deal with this in lowbie rec level tennis where the skill gaps can be huge...

I know when I play men's dubs, the skill gaps at least for me, are not anywhere near as large as they are in mixed, and for me, putting a first serve in (that may not be as big as my biggest serve, but maybe 75 to 80% as big) in play upwards of 70% of the time has been quite effective. Admittedly, I do serve flat, kick, and slice serves and the serve is probably the strongest part of my game overall, so my own experience may not be universal in 3.5 land.

As for my other thoughts on mixed serve holding, I put a few more of them down in this thread over here just a few minutes ago - I'm sure that will make some people angry, but it's just an attempt to express as honestly as I can what my own experiences have been. https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-serve-in-mixed-doubles.572992/#post-13569133

 

[Dartagnan64]

This has been my experience as well, though instead, I stand them back at the baseline near the alley... and in truth, I am sick to death of having to play that way, so I don't play in league mixed matches anymore unless it's a situation where we will forfeit the line if I don't play.

I've seen people do that against me and it's even better since now I have a drop shot and a hard FH to the 2.5's side of the middle to work with.

I remember once playing against a 3.0 woman and her 3.5 husband wasn't a big server. I took every second serve at her. She started on top of the net and couldn't react fast enough. Stood back at the service line and couldn't handle the dipper at her feet. Went back to the service line and I hit a drop shot on match point. Don't think I've seen a woman more disheartened and angry all at the same time.

 

[Cawlin]

I've seen people do that against me and it's even better since now I have a drop shot and a hard FH to the 2.5's side of the middle to work with.

I remember once playing against a 3.0 woman and her 3.5 husband wasn't a big server. I took every second serve at her. She started on top of the net and couldn't react fast enough. Stood back at the service line and couldn't handle the dipper at her feet. Went back to the service line and I hit a drop shot on match point. Don't think I've seen a woman more disheartened and angry all at the same time.

Yep... it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't... I do the same when I see weak serves coming at me from a team playing 2-back..

For me, unless I'm having a REAL DISASTER of a serve day (relatively rare that I can't at least kick something in - maybe one match in 20 nowadys), it'll be pretty hard to drop shot my second serve at this level of play. I only have played against one guy who can do it reliably (a declining 4.0 slice/junk/drop master - wrote about him in TTPS thread about lopsided pretty strokes and whatnot). Again, not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back, but my serve is pretty solid for a 3.5, or even for a 4.0, and on my best days, 4.5s have their hands full. With that said though, if I'm reduced to dinking my serve, it's not like my 2.5 partners are actually going to see it coming, and/or actually move if they do see it coming to a drop shot that isn't "on their side". Further, a drop shot right in front of them is as likely to be botched by them as any other shot, if not more so... as for the hard FH to my partner when she's back - that's a hard FH right in her neighborhood if she's up, and she sure as sh*t isn't going to stick her racket out to poke at it up there, so, I'm sunk anyway, right? At least she may get some strings on it if she's got some time to see it coming at the baselin. Neither is ideal though, and to be frank, I don't have the patience to play with these 2.5s enough to try to get them to a place where they can effectively contribute in such matches - especially since most of them aren't exactly champing at the bit to take lessons, or even drill and practice, they just want to play matches. It's a real drag for me playing with the 2.5 partners I know, and I wouldn't even do it in practice if I weren't friends with them off the court.

 

[kevrol]

IMO if all that is true you are not being aggressive enough. As a male 3.5 playing 6.0 mixed you should win your serve >80% of the time.

FYI I meant service games not actual serves.

 

[Cawlin]

FYI I meant service games not actual serves.

Well... how can I be more aggressive on my service games without being more aggressive on my actual serves?

FYI, I was speaking about holding my OWN PERSONAL serve games - not my team's serve games.

Though if the 2.5's serve is bad enough - there's not much you can do... if you try to poach, they flip it behind you in the alley, if you cover the alley, they just fire one up the middle that your 2.5 won't get a good shot on if they reach it at all... if you play back at the baseline they drop shot her return... in such cases, you are LITERALLY a soccer goalie on a penalty kick... maybe your 2.5s can serve the ball deep in the box and towards the T to help mitigate the need to cover the alley so much, but most of the 2.5s I see can't even do that.

Again, if you're playing legit 6.0 mixed as a 3.5 male against another team with a 2.5 female and 3.5 male, the outcome of the match is almost entirely predicated on which team hits to the 2.5 first and most often.

 

[kevrol]

Your service game is likely only 25% of the points you play. You can be more aggressive without being more aggressive on your serves.

When I've played 6.0 as a 3.5M/2.5F combo I won 2/3 of the matches I've played. It's my opinion that in mixed if your male is the strongest player on the court you're in the driver's seat.

 

[Cawlin]

Your service game is likely on 25% of the points you play.

Yep, but this entire game is about holding and breaking serves... so you'd better win most of your own games if you're the strong server. The thing is, if you're playing with a 2.5, you need to be a REALLY strong server to win those serve games becuase it's not likely you can count on your 2.5 partner to help you out too much.

As for holding my 2.5 partner's serve, if she's just going dink a nice sitter right into the middle of the serve box, or even worse, dink that sh*tty sitter out wide, I'm a soccer goalie on a penalty kick, and there is next to nothing that can be done except hope the other team forgets rules 1 and 2 of dubs - don't hit it to the net player, and hit it to the weaker player.