modern forehand with eastern grip?

[spacediver]

I may have been suffering from a faulty assumption, but I thought that the swing path of the "modern forehand" - you know, the one that starts low, whips into the ball, and ends with a windshield wiper - was only possible with the semi western and western variants.

I understand federer does something similar, but that he also doesn't really use a conventional eastern grip.

But I recently was told that Berdych uses an eastern grip, yet upon seeing him live yesterday, he certainly had a modern forehand.

What gives?

Did Sampras hit like this also?

 

[i8myshirt]

Sampras had a very traditional followthrough from what I've seen (over the shoulder), but the windshield wiper followthrough is possible with the eastern grip. However, the swing path won't go as high, but be primarily forward from what I've seen.

 

[Jaewonnie]

eastern grip for a wiper forehand is fine...you just get a more flatter and deeper shot.

 

[JT Corona]

i agree with i8 and jae.
a modern fh is possible with an eastern, however it wont be exactly the same as a semi western. what makes it modern is the spin u can get and thus hit sharp angles with weight and velocity.

Imo Berdych uses a modern SW. And Sampras had a rather modern EFH especially when he decided to flick it crosscourt or do a reverse fh. Fed's is even more modern and more spinny on average but he too can flatten it out like when he hits it inside out. Btw i have an EFH that i'm working on making more and more modern.

 

[spacediver]

cool, thanks for the responses.

 

[marosmith]

Anyone who tells you "no" is an idiot. Fed, Berdych, Del Potro and many others are examples.

EFH works very well with a WW in my opinion.

 

[BevelDevil]

Be cautious about making inferences based on Berdych and Del Potro. Those guys are 6'5" and 6'6", respectively, and I'm pretty sure their heights have a lot to do with the effectiveness of their swings.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

eastern grip for a wiper forehand is fine...you just get a more flatter and deeper shot.

Yeah... That's why Federer has the second heaviest topspin forehand in the game... Totally a flatter shot than Roddick's near-full western forehand. Though he does generally hit it deeper than Roddick and Nadal.

Be cautious about making inferences based on Berdych and Del Potro. Those guys are 6'5" and 6'6", respectively, and I'm pretty sure their heights have a lot to do with the effectiveness of their swings.

Yes, height has a lot to do with their strike zones and effective strike zones, but nothing to do with their forehand motion...

Also, I'm pretty sure that Delpo uses a semi western. Tennis magazine did a frame by frame of his forehand, and it didn't look anywhere close to a eastern.

 

[BevelDevil]

Yes, height has a lot to do with their strike zones and effective strike zones, but nothing to do with their forehand motion...

Disagree. You should develop your swing motion in relation to where you hit the ball most the time. I suspect this is what happened to them.

The implication of this is: Just because it works well for them, doesn't mean it will work well for you if you're 5'8".

Also, I think DP uses a strong Eastern, not SW. (I searched around and found various opinions).

 

[Mr_Shiver]

Forget the efh, I want to see a modern fh with a continental grip.

 

[corners]

The windshield wiper swingpath with more conservative grips can feel a bit strange. I think this is partially because the face closes very rapidly just after moving through the contact point. If you do a windshield wiper with the continental you'll feel what I mean - it closes so fast that it creates a weird torque on the wrist.

I also think the conservative grips mean that you have less access to external shoulder rotation at the start of the forward swing, which can feel weird and restricted in the windshield wiper technique, but natural with traditional technique.

I think these things are why some experts suggest learning the windshield wiper with a semi-western and then moving to eastern (if you want) after grooving the swing. The windshield wiper swingpath feels most natural - makes the most "sense" to the body - with a semi-western grip.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I may have been suffering from a faulty assumption, but I thought that the swing path of the "modern forehand" - you know, the one that starts low, whips into the ball, and ends with a windshield wiper - was only possible with the semi western and western variants.

I understand federer does something similar, but that he also doesn't really use a conventional eastern grip.

But I recently was told that Berdych uses an eastern grip, yet upon seeing him live yesterday, he certainly had a modern forehand.

What gives?

Did Sampras hit like this also?

I think the WW forehand is easier to execute with a SW grip. But, there are several players out there now including Federer and Delpotro who do it very well with an Eastern grip. I haven't seen a close up of Berdych's grip, but, from what I've seen on TV, I'd say it's past Eastern. I would also suggest that it's easier to hit balls below the knee, and easier to hit when you are running parallel to the baseline with an Eastern grip than with a SW grip.

 

[aimr75]

EFH works very well with a WW in my opinion.

yep, some insane WW action here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oanZ2wZki-U&playnext_from=TL&videos=DBV-ZGau4N4

 

[Synesthetic]

Berdych has a SW grip.

But Federer and Del Potro are examples of players who have a WW/"modern" forehand using a (strong) Eastern grip.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Disagree. You should develop your swing motion in relation to where you hit the ball most the time. I suspect this is what happened to them.

The implication of this is: Just because it works well for them, doesn't mean it will work well for you if you're 5'8".

Also, I think DP uses a strong Eastern, not SW. (I searched around and found various opinions).

I remember looking at a frame by frame article of his forehand and it looked beyond strange.

And them being taller means they're more likely to hit with an old school form since their contact point is lower. So the idea that their height affects their swing motion would actually go AGAINST your argument. Of course, I am assuming that you believe they use a windshield wiper motion with a very conservative grip (not as conservative as continental of course, but you understand what I mean). If I'm wrong in that assumption, then sorry.

However, Federer does extremely well with an eastern forehand and he is far more similar to your average 5'8" player than Del Potro and Berdych. Your swing should be developed to what is efficient and comfortable for you. From there, you make small adjustments to adapt to the ball. The entire stroke doesn't change, so height has less to do with it than you think unless a very high percentage of their shots are made at head level or higher.

Forget the efh, I want to see a modern fh with a continental grip.

Same here... I'd love to see what that'd do to your wrist.

 

[Jaewonnie]

Forget the efh, I want to see a modern fh with a continental grip.

lol ive tried a reverse forehand with a continental...it sucks

 

[NLBwell]

Forget the efh, I want to see a modern fh with a continental grip.

Yes, I can hit a windshield wiper forehand with a continental grip and even use it rarely in matches. However, the wrist is bent back in an uncomfortable position and I don't know if someone who hasn't played with a continental their entire life should even attempt it - might strain their wrist trying to do something that isn't natural.

 

[Cross-court]

Forget about an eastern grip - use an extreme eastern at the very least. The hand (or maybe wrist) position is just too weak, feels almost like using a continental. Gross. Unless you're going to volley: use it there.

 

[Blake0]

You can even do it with a continental grip (although not well), but your wrist has to be positioned in a weird position. The main reason you don't see much eastern/continental grips with WW forehands it because it's more suited toward the extreme grips, although players like federer have changed it up slightly to make it useful for eastern too.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

You can even do it with a continental grip (although not well), but your wrist has to be positioned in a weird position.

And that's exactly the reason we want to see it.

I know how to do it, I can do it if I want to, and I know it can be done (just not dumb enough to try it at this point), but I want to see someone actually use it competitively and see how badly their wrist gets messed up to see if it's actually even worth screwing around with during practice.

 

[BMC9670]

Forget about an eastern grip - use an extreme eastern at the very least. The hand (or maybe wrist) position is just too weak, feels almost like using a continental. Gross. Unless you're going to volley: use it there.

I don't follow... the hand is behind the racket with an EFH allowing good plow through. How is that a weak position? I think it's one of the strongest feeling grips. I feel I can get more pace with a flatter EFH grip and more spin with a strong EFH or SW grip, but it certainly isn't a weaker shot.

 

[Pioneer]

It's perfectly possible. Before switching to semi-western I used to hit eastern forehands until about 6 months ago. Just forces you to hit flat a bit more, but you can hit with just as much topsin as a semi-western


Berdych uses a semi-western. So does Nadal:

http://www.tennisserver.com/photofeed/2006/06_08_10toronto.html

 

[darthpwner]

The modern forehand is easier to execute with a semi-western grip than an eastern grip because a semi-western grip naturally makes the arm a double bend position which is, for most, more stable. With an eastern grip, you have to hit a straight arm because if you hit with an eastern grip, the face would be too open for a double bend.

 

[Pioneer]

I don't follow... the hand is behind the racket with an EFH allowing good plow through. How is that a weak position? I think it's one of the strongest feeling grips. I feel I can get more pace with a flatter EFH grip and more spin with a strong EFH or SW grip, but it certainly isn't a weaker shot.

If the eastern was so good 95% of pros wouldn't be using semi-western and western. Try returning a high-bouncing ball with eastern and you'll see that you're forced to either twist your wrist or lift your right elbow. With the SW your whole wrist is behind the racquet and the racquet face is more open, giving you more freedom

 

[darthpwner]

If the eastern was so good 95% of pros wouldn't be using semi-western and western. Try returning a high-bouncing ball with eastern and you'll see that you're forced to either twist your wrist or lift your right elbow. With the SW your whole wrist is behind the racquet and the racquet face is more open, giving you more freedom

Yes, although it is possible to hit a modern forehand with a lot of spin with an EFH, it still is more vulnerable to high balls than with a SW or W. That's an inherent advantage of using more extreme grips. In fact, it is probably better to hit with an extreme grip IMO, because you can more easily adjust to low balls than to high balls. If you use a classical grip, then you have to change your swing path and racket face to deal with higher balls. With a more extreme grip, if the ball is low, you just have to bend your knees.

 

[Pioneer]

Yes, although it is possible to hit a modern forehand with a lot of spin with an EFH, it still is more vulnerable to high balls than with a SW or W. That's an inherent advantage of using more extreme grips. In fact, it is probably better to hit with an extreme grip IMO, because you can more easily adjust to low balls than to high balls. If you use a classical grip, then you have to change your swing path and racket face to deal with higher balls. With a more extreme grip, if the ball is low, you just have to bend your knees.

exactly - it's easy to adjust to low balls with an extreme grip by bending your knees

 

[supineAnimation]

Hitting a millennium forehand with an eastern grip is all about the hand and forearm, in my opinion. I use mainly an eastern grip that leans a bit towards a semi-western, and I'll switch between a true eastern, a true semi-western and an in-between grip depending on what I want to do with the ball and the nature of the shot hit to me. With an eastern, you need to pronate the forearm and flex the wrist through the ball in such a way that you close the face enough to get the strings perpendicular to the ground before the ball leaves them. It's great for high net clearance and heavy topspin because it allows you to easily open the face under the ball when you drop the racquet just before the forward swing and turn over the ball during contact with pronation and flexion, whereas with a western or semi-western opening the face at the racquet drop can be more awkward.

 

[BMC9670]

If the eastern was so good 95% of pros wouldn't be using semi-western and western. Try returning a high-bouncing ball with eastern and you'll see that you're forced to either twist your wrist or lift your right elbow. With the SW your whole wrist is behind the racquet and the racquet face is more open, giving you more freedom

I didn't say it is better. It's a different grip that results in a different shot. There are many types of players with varying styles and level of play. Most people are not pros. I think the "this vs that grip" argument is unproductive. Use what works best for your game. I personally use both an EFH and a "strong" EFH / SW depending on what kind of shot I want to hit.

 

[spacediver]

With an eastern, you need to pronate the forearm and flex the wrist through the ball in such a way that you close the face enough to get the strings perpendicular to the ground before the ball leaves them.

I may be misunderstanding, but don't you mean parallel to the ground? When you say that the strings should be perpendicular to the ground, I interpret that as the racquet face being perpendicular to the ground, which is what would happen if you didn't pronate...

 

[supineAnimation]

I may be misunderstanding, but don't you mean parallel to the ground? When you say that the strings should be perpendicular to the ground, I interpret that as the racquet face being perpendicular to the ground, which is what would happen if you didn't pronate...

You don't want the strings to be parallel to the ground at contact... unless you want the ball to go straight up in the air or down into the ground. The racquet face should be perpendicular to the ground, or parallel to the net, if you prefer, or rather, parallel to the target line of your shot, at contact.

 

[spacediver]

right, that makes sense, but if one were to pronate to achieve that perpendicularity, that would mean that the racquet face was facing upwards to begin with (i.e. would be open). But that doesn't seem to be the case with an eastern grip. With a continental grip, I can understand how pronation would be necessary to close the racquet face to perpendicularity.

 

[supineAnimation]

right, that makes sense, but if one were to pronate to achieve that perpendicularity, that would mean that the racquet face was facing upwards to begin with (i.e. would be open). But that doesn't seem to be the case with an eastern grip. With a continental grip, I can understand how pronation would be necessary to close the racquet face to perpendicularity.

You certainly wouldn't want the strings to be facing upwards completely or really even close, for that matter. But the eastern grip allows you to open the racquet face slightly by supinating the forearm just prior to the initiation of the forward swing which both increases the degree of rotation of the subsequent pronation and gets the racquet under the ball more to help with net clearance.

 

[spacediver]

thanks supine, that makes sense. Quite a different affair from the "pat the dog" swing path in the SW grip right? In that case, the racquet face is well closed before contact.

 

[Cross-court]

I don't follow... the hand is behind the racket with an EFH allowing good plow through. How is that a weak position? I think it's one of the strongest feeling grips. I feel I can get more pace with a flatter EFH grip and more spin with a strong EFH or SW grip, but it certainly isn't a weaker shot.

Well it could be me, but if I get in an eastern I just feel the racket too loose or unsteady and I just feel like I am grabbing it with a continental, I would never even consider hitting an abs/chest-height forehand with it.

The extreme eastern just feels perfect, I don't know why. That's the grip I naturally grab it with if I set up to hit a forehand.

It's amazing how a few milimeters can make a monumental difference, extreme eastern is just millimeters away from either a full eastern or a semiwestern, and yet my hand is in neither of those and if it gets into either the whole swing changes.

Btw I don't buy that whole "the hand is in the best position to plow-through the ball with the eastern" thing: a truly "flat" or linear forehand is very dangerous/obsolete nowadays.