Modern tennis and open stance

Wegner

Wegner

Rookie
Open stance should be the preferred coaching method, especially with young children, for forehands and 2 handed backhands, exemplified by Serena Williams, World #1. Open stance has been derided as causing hip injuries by conventional teachers, threatened with changes that deeply affect the coaching profession. That was just an invention to fight change to more modern and effective ways.
Here is what the USTA says about it, in answer to a question in that regard:
"Unfortunately, most tennis injuries are multifaceted so there are few easy answers to injury questions. There are no studies that statistically link open stance tennis strokes with higher rates of certain injuries at the hip joint. Most tennis players could benefit from strengthening hip musculature in all directions (flexion/extension and abduction/adduction). Most players should also stretch the muscles around the hip in all directions too. One recent study of tennis professionals found an association between flexibility losses of hip internal rotation of the lead leg and lower back flexibility.
Hip flexors are muscles on the front of your hip and thigh that help you quickly swing the leg forward as you run about the court. For most players strength is not the issue but flexibility. If your knee is strong a good stretch is to bend your knee and grab your foot behind you and gently pull your leg backward. More advanced stretches are splits (rear leg) or elevating your leg behind you and placing the top of your foot on a short bench/fence.
One of the hip flexors (rectus femoris) crosses both the hip and knee joints, so combinations of hip extension with and without knee extension will allow you to focus stretching on this superficial muscle or the deeper hip flexors in the pelvis/lower back. To reduce the risk of painful hip flexors one should both strengthen these muscles away from the court and stretch them to maintain their flexibility."
 
Good advice from the USTA regarding flexibility, Oscar.

I noticed an improvement in my tennis when I was doing more yoga.
 
Good to know. Often wondered about hip injuries and open stance.
With Connors you can see how hard he ran but with Nalbandian and others it's harder to see the cause of hip injury.
 
In boxing, hook is the most devastated punch. You dont throw hook with a closed stance.
And I dont see hip injuries in boxing cuz boxers hit hooks with open stance
 
Oscar, do you advocate stepping through with the rear foot on FHs? We are used to seeing Nadal hit off his back foot but I saw a video where he was turning so aggressively his rear foot came around. I think by releasing the rear leg, you minimize the strain on the hip and lower back.
 
Oscar, do you have any theories on why Guga had hip problems? He appeared to be fairly flexible. Almost Gumby-like at times.

Connors also later had hip problems. Connors had a really long career and played a lot of matches, though.
 
Oscar,

Is this a good exercise to get the feel of pushing and turning with the forehand?

Exercise from Doug King:
Place ball against the fence. Push forward and twist against the ball. Try to make the ball spring backwards as far as possible. Finish with the elbow touching the fence.

Definition of Torque: Pressure in different directions on the same point.



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onehandbh said:
Good advice from the USTA regarding flexibility, Oscar.

I noticed an improvement in my tennis when I was doing more yoga.
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I believe yoga is great cross training for tennis. If top legendary players such as Tilden, Kramer, and other champions were using open stance from over a hundred years ago (and we now know that is the case), where were the hip injuries then if open stance is the main cause? I know that if my students ever have abnormal pain means there is likely an imbalance in the student's balance and optimal movement. I have done some research on this issue debating how much to talk about in my upcoming 2016 book on the history of USA tennis instruction. Tommy Haas came back from hip surgery to beat Federer at the 2013 Open. I also discovered that Mike Bryan tore both hip flexor muscles and chose not to have surgery, instead using yoga and stretching from a Dr Patricia Ladis at KIMA Center in New York. Mike Bryan had no surgery, missed no time, and instead took cortisone shots while he learned to build up optimal muscle flexibility.

Quote from article: "Every therapist at KIMA works closely with yoga instructors, Feldenkrais practitioners, pilates instructors, acupuncturists, massage/reflexology therapists, mind body psychologists and cranio sacral therapists to provide patients with a comprehensive experience. Ladis has a particular focus on specialized techniques that focus on recruitment of muscle groups to refine movement and function, often referred to as neuromuscular re-education. Ladis’s approach to Bryan’s issues have been and continue to be holisitic in nature, in her words, “to help overcome his tight legs and a misaligned thorax”. “Not only getting the deep stabilizers to fire correctly in the hip locally, but to set the joint the right way and get the rest of the body to act in unison” was key to his recovery according to Ladis."
 
onehandbh said:
Good advice from the USTA regarding flexibility, Oscar.

I noticed an improvement in my tennis when I was doing more yoga.
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Added relevant quotes regarding Mike Bryan's hip problems. I do think the game is as one poster described it on Oscar's previous thread "ground and pound" and this will cause added stress due to severe torquing of the joints. Older pros didn't play too many tournaments on cement and hard courts either.

Here is more info from the above referenced article: “The game has become so physical—you do get a lot of your power from the lower half of the body twisting and you are pivoting on that hip and torquing it 1,000 times every time you go out to hit”, said Bryan. Under the guidance of Ladis, he has focused on improving hamstring strength and recruitment or firing of the internal rotator muscle groups and stabilizers in his core in order to improve hip strength. Ladis has also focused Bryan on loosening up of his feet, to absorb some of the shock experienced in his legs and hips. Bryan currently uses five finger Vibram shoes –barefoot-type shoes, helping him to strengthening the arch of his feet knees and hips.
 
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teachestennis said:
If top legendary players such as Tilden, Kramer, and other champions were using open stance from over a hundred years ago (and we now know that is the case), where were the hip injuries then if open stance is the main cause?
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The game is much more demanding on the body today vs back then, though.
 
I thought a straight overhand is generally considered the harder punch (due to the distance travelled and weight transfer).

I must have had my head in a barrel but does anybody these days really discourage the open stance because of hip injuries?
 
No one talks about hip injuries, to narrow it down further. It is always about shoulder, elbow, wrist, knee, ankle, acl, hamstring. Open stance connection to hip injury is an obsolete area of interest.
 
Raul_SJ said:
Oscar,

Is this a good exercise to get the feel of pushing and turning with the forehand?

Exercise from Doug King:
Place ball against the fence. Push forward and twist against the ball. Try to make the ball spring backwards as far as possible. Finish with the elbow touching the fence.

Definition of Torque: Pressure in different directions on the same point.



WCWSLZ.gif
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It would be a lot better if he was open stance. Look how he is stressing the left knee (and more) with the torque on it.
 
onehandbh said:
Oscar, do you have any theories on why Guga had hip problems? He appeared to be fairly flexible. Almost Gumby-like at times.

Connors also later had hip problems. Connors had a really long career and played a lot of matches, though.
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The better Kuerten got, the more he had to play, ending later in the week and not having enough rest before getting on the next plane to the next tournament. It caught up with him.
 
RetroSpin said:
Oscar, do you advocate stepping through with the rear foot on FHs? We are used to seeing Nadal hit off his back foot but I saw a video where he was turning so aggressively his rear foot came around. I think by releasing the rear leg, you minimize the strain on the hip and lower back.
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I advocate early learning in an open stance both for the FH and 2 Handed Backhand. Then, in competition, you don't think of your feet, you hit, in an emergency, anyway you can.
 
Easy Rider said:
In boxing, hook is the most devastated punch. You dont throw hook with a closed stance.
And I dont see hip injuries in boxing cuz boxers hit hooks with open stance
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Nice post!

I am not a boxing historian but I thought Tyson was so devastating because he was using hooks instead of linear punches.
 
"There are no studies that statistically link open stance tennis strokes with higher rates of certain injuries at the hip joint". With regards to this USTA quote in the OP, it is from a page that I had seen quite a few years back. There does not appear to be any indication of a date for that "Improve Your Game" Q&A page. I have seen other articles that have appeared later that indicate that there is a correlation between open stance and hip stress and injuries.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Health-Fitness/Injuries-Prevention-and-Recovery/Hip_Injuries/

Even tho' this page that Oscar quotes may be somewhat dated, it still acknowledges that the open stance can result in added stress and an overuse injury to the hip. Take a look at the answer to the 4th question on that same page. The following, more current link, I believe, is from another USTA (Sport Science) page:

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Sport-Science/340461_Prevention_of_hip_injuries/

"The loading and rotation associated with the open stance forehand places the hip at risk of injury. Maintaining strength and flexibility in the muscles surrounding this joint can help to minimize this risk."

The article goes on to present exercises to strengthen the area. While these may minimize the occurrence of a hip injury, it does not guarantee that an overuse hip injury will not happen sometime later. Here is another page from TennisPlayer.net that also presents exercises to offset stress to the hip.

Hip Injuries and the Open Stance Forehand

"... loading of the right hip: inevitable source of stress in modern tennis"
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
"There are no studies that statistically link open stance tennis strokes with higher rates of certain injuries at the hip joint". With regards to this USTA quote in the OP, it is from a page that I had seen quite a few years back. There does not appear to be any indication of a date for that "Improve Your Game" Q&A page. I have seen other articles that have appeared later that indicate that there is a correlation between open stance and hip stress and injuries.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Health-Fitness/Injuries-Prevention-and-Recovery/Hip_Injuries/

Even tho' this page that Oscar quotes may be somewhat dated, it still acknowledges that the open stance can result in added stress and an overuse injury to the hip. Take a look at the answer to the 4th question on that same page. The following, more current link, I believe, is from another USTA (Sport Science) page:

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Sport-Science/340461_Prevention_of_hip_injuries/

"The loading and rotation associated with the open stance forehand places the hip at risk of injury. Maintaining strength and flexibility in the muscles surrounding this joint can help to minimize this risk."

The article goes on to present exercises to strengthen the area. While these may minimize the occurrence of a hip injury, it does not guarantee that an overuse hip injury will not happen sometime later. Here is another page from TennisPlayer.net that also presents exercises to offset stress to the hip.

Hip Injuries and the Open Stance Forehand

"... loading of the right hip: inevitable source of stress in modern tennis"
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Read the Forbes 3 page article first (above in one of my posts).
This article you mention here is from 2005, when the mantra that open stance caused injuries was at its height. That study is faulty, and modern science has proven it wrong.
Of course there is much more stress at the top level of modern tennis than in the past. Points are longer and ferociously fought. But Djokovic and Federer are physically more fit (respecting age) than anyone else. So was Nadal, and Murray is close. So bad backs and injuries may occur more often at the top level, but if loading on the outside foot and open stance was the problem, these guys would be in wheel chairs by now. I interviewed quite a few chiropractors as well, and they all pointed out that open is the most NATURAL forehand and two-handed backhand stance.
 
Wegner said:
Read the Forbes 3 page article first (above in one of my posts).
This article you mention here is from 2005, when the mantra that open stance caused injuries was at its height. That study is faulty, and modern science has proven it wrong.
Of course there is much more stress at the top level of modern tennis than in the past. Points are longer and ferociously fought. But Djokovic and Federer are physically more fit (respecting age) than anyone else. So was Nadal, and Murray is close. So bad backs and injuries may occur more often at the top level, but if loading on the outside foot and open stance was the problem, these guys would be in wheel chairs by now. I interviewed quite a few chiropractors as well, and they all pointed out that open is the most NATURAL forehand and two-handed backhand stance.
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I had already seen that Forbes article more than a year ago and have provided that very link several times in past threads. That article does not discount the notion that the open stance induces greater stress to the hip (or lower back). It does, however, bring to light a number ATP players who have developed hip issues playing tennis. If anything, this article indicates that the recovery of Mike Bryan after a hip injury is still the exception rather than the rule -- he has "defied the odds". Some like Kuerten, Norman, Nalbandian and others have been less fortunate. Hewitt who, like Kuerten, prolifically uses a fully open stance, has undergone 2 hip surgeries. Further, in the Forbes article, Ladis has this to say, “The introduction of the open stance has allowed for greater sheer forces to the hip and the speed of the game has compounded it”

The problem of stress and overuse injuries to the body is something that plagues both pros and amateurs. While there may very well be more stress in the modern game at the pro level due to both style (like open stance) and intensity, most top players have also been training to minimize the impact of added stress to the body presented by the modern game.

My own chiropractor and a couple of physical therapists disagree with the conclusion of the chiropractors that you have interviewed. They believe that my own hip issues (upslip, anterior rotation, arthritis) have been exacerbated by open stance mechanics -- possibly the primary cause.
 
Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation: A Sport-Specific Approach (Buschbacher, Prahlow, Dave) discusses the increased stress to the hip and lower back with open stance mechanics. This book indicates that there is increased abduction and hyperextension forces on the (right) hip for (right-handed) ATP players who employ the open stance on the forehand.

The Vol 8, #2 issue of the USTA's High Performance Coach, discusses injuries to the hip and shoulder with use of the open stance.

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/Resources/usta-high-performance-vol-8-no-2.pdf

"... Additionally, due to the reliance on angular momentum in many of the open stance shots, mistiming the intricate series of segmental rotations (i.e., opening up too soon on the serve or forehand) can lead to the ineffective power transfer through the kinetic link system resulting in musculoskeletal injury."


The following sport medicine journal indicates the hip issues are also a problem in the WTA.

http://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=192#.VgI7ot9VhBd

"At the WTA physical examination for players in 2012, 18% of the 125 professional women tennis players examined noted a history of hip or groin pain (unpublished data). When reported in the literature, anywhere between 8 and 27% of injuries are to the pelvis/hip/groin in high level tennis players."

"As the muscles around the hip are important for the transfer of forces from the feet to the racquet as part of the kinetic chain, the hip is subjected to flexion (lunging for a low ball), extension (serve in the late cocking phase) and rotation in the serve motion and especially with the popular open stance mechanics."
 
5263 said:
Maybe with time and study we will find this is an unnecessary twisting of the hip. Imo the hip action should be short and small as an ignition of core movement. Maybe as we learn to teach it better, players can learn not to overuse this aspect more than required.
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Perhaps. We will have to see how that pans out.

Easy Rider said:
In boxing, hook is the most devastated punch. You dont throw hook with a closed stance.
And I dont see hip injuries in boxing cuz boxers hit hooks with open stance
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Not certain if a comparison between boxing and tennis strokes is particularly relevant. The mechanics are not exactly the same. The degree and duration of hip loading is not necessarily the same. The amount of body rotation with weight on the loading hip may not be the same either. Also, for an open stance tennis FH, the loading hip is on the same side as the racket arm. I may be wrong, but isn't a hook thrown with weight (loading) primarily on the opposite leg/hip?

Lastly, hip injuries are listed among common boxing injuries -- specifically hip labral tears and hip OA. Check out the following list of common boxing injuries:

http://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/boxing-injuries
 
heninfan99 said:
Oh, I know this article and have posted it a few times on here in the Health section.
Thanks
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I have posted it several times as well. This article does not really vindicate an over-reliance on the open stance -- particularly the fully open stance. I discussed this in post #28. I also provided a quote from page 2 of that Forbes article:

“The introduction of the open stance has allowed for greater sheer forces to the hip and the speed of the game has compounded it.”

My thinking is that coaches should teach students not to rely solely on an open stance or a closed stance. In order to minimize stress and injuries, a variety of stances should be utilized -- primarily semi-open and neutral stances. And not rely too much on the extremes -- fully open and extremely closed. In order to minimize the likelihood of hip and back injuries with the open stance, relevant exercises should be incorporated into a player's training. These exercises are shown in TennisPlayer and USTA links I provided.
 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
I have posted it several times as well. This article does not really vindicate an over-reliance on the open stance -- particularly the fully open stance. I discussed this on post #28. I also provided a quote from page 2 of that Forbes article:

“The introduction of the open stance has allowed for greater sheer forces to the hip and the speed of the game has compounded it.”

My thinking is that coaches should teach students not to rely solely on an open stance or a closed stance. In order to minimize stress and injuries, a variety of stances should be utilized -- primarily semi-open and neutral stances. And not rely too much on the extremes -- fully open and extremely closed. In order to minimize the likelihood of hip and back injuries with the open stance, relevant exercises should be incorporated into a player's training. These exercises are shown in TennisPlayer and USTA links I provided.
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In watching tennis carefully for over ten years once I became a proponent of MTM, I have studied contradictory theories carefully as to this question of fully open to neutral (some would call knees parallel to the sideline a closed stance). I have a book about to come out in 2016. My neck is on the line.
SystemicAnomaly said:
I have posted it several times as well. This article does not really vindicate an over-reliance on the open stance -- particularly the fully open stance. I discussed this on post #28. I also provided a quote from page 2 of that Forbes article:

“The introduction of the open stance has allowed for greater sheer forces to the hip and the speed of the game has compounded it.”

My thinking is that coaches should teach students not to rely solely on an open stance or a closed stance. In order to minimize stress and injuries, a variety of stances should be utilized -- primarily semi-open and neutral stances. And not rely too much on the extremes -- fully open and extremely closed. In order to minimize the likelihood of hip and back injuries with the open stance, relevant exercises should be incorporated into a player's training. These exercises are shown in TennisPlayer and USTA links I provided.
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I have studied such thinking over the years since I first decided to advocate MTM in 2003 as the best foundation to start beginners with. In 2016 my ten years of research will be public as I discuss the competing theories of tennis instruction. It's not easy being viewed as part of the minority viewpoint when I have a book about to be on display for all to review and attack. I am not an Oscar Wegner clone, he and I often argue over minute details because I'm about what grows the game and gets optimal results and allows players to feel like they can rally back and forth and enjoy the pure athleticism of the game. He is also and has learned from other coaches as I can attest to even recently. I even sensed Oscar was not exactly thrilled when I discovered Dick Bradlee (the man who indirectly might be most responsible for Pete Sampras despite never having met Sampras) and other coaches who have advocated much of his theories from over 100 years ago but since have been drowned out by coaches who insist on a linear emphasis moving the weight from back to front.

Stan Smith could barely play singles a couple years after being #1 hitting closed stance. Everything must be tested and looked at objectively versus the alternative and allow the student and the coach to choose based on what they feel is most important. I use the Bailey Method dance steps with great success with my high school girls I coach in Ojai and see even better results in teaching movement (I don't worry about advanced footwork until they get to 4.0 or so, unless I see their lack of good movement a severe problem that needs immediate attention) I find the Bailey dance moves especially effective in my girls knowing how to handle the neutral stance and it's resultant compensations to maintain feel while hitting across the ball. I work hard on emulating pro movements and yet some think MTM doesn't teach proper footwork though at the beginning levels we deemphasize the feet while we work on the three "F" (find feel and finish). I observe Djokovic prefers to use neutral (closed) stance 2HBHs though he invariably finishes open stance on this optimal shots off both sides regardless of how he approaches it. Players can hit a ball from any stance. The question is what is optimal for the long run given everything we coaches teach has an opportunity cost. if the end result desired is primarily open stance FHs, should we be be deemphasizing open stance at the beginning levels? If my students were to experience pain, I would not allow open stance. I do know that many of them came to me hitting neutral stance with tennis elbow or wrist hurting often. Now they don't complain of injuries from their swing patterns. Should I take the word of those who think I should be teaching otherwise when I don't get the results i get now? It's a dichotomy in tennis coaching. Kim Cliisters hits on Youtube at age 8 and 9 exactly as she hit winning her second US Open nearly twenty years later. Would she be a champion if she had been taught to turn sideways on her forehands for years?

Injuries occur at all top pro levels in all sports. Would Hewitt, who played great after both his hip surgeries, prefer to have hit conventional style? Not likely or we would probably not have heard of him. We all have access to the same data pretty much today. The question my book asks is how does the USA grow the game optimally? History is only interesting if it teaches us something new and my book's research opened my eyes as it has others who have seen excerpts and facts I pointed out on here years ago. I sent that Tennisplayer.net article to certain MTM coaches right after it came out and again recently before you brought it up as it's an important issue to address. I have my high school girls warm up with many of those suggested exercises I got from such articles. Thought this soft rant necessary to get us to think and talk this out given I respect Systemic Anomaly and other posters on here so much and would love to even have the legends on here preview the book for comments or additions in case I left relevant data out. I welcome criticism because if I have any truth, it will withstand attack. Let's flush this topic out further. Good discussions here.
 
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To be meaningful, injury studies have to be able to link a precise injury with a precise movement. Marathon runners also have hip injuries, so I could speculate that overuse is the issue. Mere correlation, eg hip injury and open stance, proves nothing. What I am reading is a lot of speculation.

There is also the issue of correct versus incorrect hip and body movement. To say a player uses an "open stance" is much too general. There are important differences in the way they rotate. There are numerous micro moves involved in roation, from the degree of hip flexion to pelvic tilt to side bend, etc. A useful study would compare top players with hip issues to top players without such issues and seek to determine if technique differences might be causative.
 
RetroSpin said:
To be meaningful, injury studies have to be able to link a precise injury with a precise movement. Marathon runners also have hip injuries, so I could speculate that overuse is the issue. Mere correlation, eg hip injury and open stance, proves nothing. What I am reading is a lot of speculation.

There is also the issue of correct versus incorrect hip and body movement. To say a player uses an "open stance" is much too general. There are important differences in the way they rotate. There are numerous micro moves involved in roation, from the degree of hip flexion to pelvic tilt to side bend, etc. A useful study would compare top players with hip issues to top players without such issues and seek to determine if technique differences might be causative.
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Well stated, there is a lot of speculation in this arena, even by the USTA, doctors, chiropractors and coaches such as myself who try to study the issue closely. Cliisters appears to have hit open stance from childhood but was also extremely flexible as seen by her famous splits. 5263, who teaches me a lot about tennis also, is testing and discussing a hypothesis that the full emphasis on the hip turn is not as important as it's being a conduit as energy transfers upward from the back leg (I believe a modern swing begins with the weight loaded on the back leg and that the weight transfer is as Todd Martin described it "any direction but forward") allowing the core to rotate more fully accelerating allowing the strings to move across the ball without the limitation of feet on the ground which may explain why top pros hit often with their feet in the air). This emphasis on micro movement we coaches discuss is a technical instruction that would make any player's eyes glaze over. I advocate any instruction method that is easy to understand from a player's point of view that trends towards the desired end result of emulating optimal strokes. This is where 'constraints based" methodologies such as MTM and other successful teaching methods come into play. We believe evidence indicates the best players play by feel and instinct and I find guided discovery instruction very effective in allowing students to test the data and find what works best for them.
 
In other news, serving has been linked to increase the likelihood of shoulder injuries -- and aging has been linked to an increasing likelihood of death. :)
 
mightyrick said:
In other news, serving has been linked to increase the likelihood of shoulder injuries -- and aging has been linked to an increasing likelihood of death. :)
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lol, point well taken. I was surprised to discover that Sampras' serving arm went "dead" at one point due to overuse. He appeared to never suffer injury given he was so smooth and efficient but apparently he just overextended himself until he learned to pace his practice.
 
Pet said:

Do you see Novak falling backwards?.....
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Showing practice footage is a waste of time. You need to show match play if you want to see how they really hit the ball.

There are plenty of times that joker has to pull back and transfer his weight back and to his left side. If you have never seen this then you have not watched much MATCH play in slow motion.
 
Pet said:

Do you see Novak falling backwards?.....
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I certainly don't, but I see his hands moving across the ball and pulling backwards to the finish. Is falling backwards supposed to be optimal here given it's a practice session or is pulling the hands back after a slight push into the ball providing a counterforce as Doug King shows on the above soccer ball video? I also do not see his weight going forward into the shot. Even on the low 2HBH he picks off early he is careful not to lean into the shot I observe. I see a lot of weight transfer from right to left and from left to right as I like to emphasize through MTM for the student to hit more "across the ball." The weight may go forward, but is that optimal, or does the fact when Federer moves into neutral stance mid court attack mode he lifts into the air pulling his back leg up suspend the forward movement to allow more across and more "feel" on the ball? Would love to hear Oscar's take on this.
 
I don't think Oscar advocates "falling backwards." He has said something to the effect that the weight transfers onto the back foot in the BH after contact. I just watched the first few strokes in the vid but I clearly saw Novak stepping back onto his left foot after hitting BHs.
 
RetroSpin said:
I don't think Oscar advocates "falling backwards." He has said something to the effect that the weight transfers onto the back foot in the BH after contact. I just watched the first few strokes in the vid but I clearly saw Novak stepping back onto his left foot after hitting BHs.
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here is a better compilation of Novak hitting out as Tim describes per match play though it's a hard practice. Alex played Wimbledon and Simon had a decent ATP ranking and Lucile and I met them at Indian Wells this year where they filmed this.

Here is the post Tennisangel just posted right before the first Djoker video here on our MTMCA facebook page.

Lucile Bosche's (aka Tennisangel here) comments: Here is a great compilation of Djoko from British friends, Simon and Alex. Although these are Indian Wells practice court clips, they show how Djoko uses the MTM style technique in his FH, BH, slice and serve. Note his tracking the ball with both hands, the loading on the outside foot, the windshield wiper up and across FH, letting the racket turn the body and turning to run toward the ball when recovering from out wide (classic "cone drill" movement), big finish over the shoulder, finding the ball with the hand, letting the ball almost pass the hand on the slice, hitting up and across and pronating on the serve, leading with the head to run, and losing then regaining balance on the run. Thanks, Alex and Simon, for a great example of MTM!

 
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Pet said:
I see a lot weight transfer back to front, natural swing finish...sorry.
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That is why my 2016 book will be titled "The Real History of USA Tennis Instruction" How the eyes couldn't see what the mind didn't know." I used to see what you saw also and totally believed it. Let's see what you think of this quote from a #4 player in the world who has enjoyed coaching top pros and is an ambassador for the game. This player was taught linearly and was ready to quit the pro tour after his first pro year until Jose Higueras put a six foot net up and made him play entire sets above the net emphasizing topspin and hit across the ball to bring the ball down when as one of slowest players on tour he suddenly made the quarters of the French Open. No one denies that sometimes the weight transfer is from back to front, but I claim that is not optimal if you understand the modern tennis swing. 5263 only came to look at MTM and examine it after coaching his son to be one of the hardest hitters in tennis but wondering why his son's mid court ball was inches long all the time and why he didn't make the pro tour despite being a top D1 recruit. He discovered his son's stroke was too linear with a weight transfer from back to front driving through the target line with not enough ratio of moving across the ball.

Todd Martin (while coaching Mardy Fish with great results) quoted verbatim during a keynote speech at the US Open Tennis Teacher's Conference in front of many famous coaches: Now the game is filled with myths and misperceptions…… A few of the myths in the game are approach up the line, can’t spin the ball with an eastern grip, can’t hit the ball with a western grip, and there are several others. But there’s no more damning myth than to tell somebody to move their feet more….. What I’ve come to know is that all those steps that I took because I was so concerned about being in the right position took time away from me……This brings me to loading, which I would say is at least misinterpreted or misunderstood often. I can’t stand hearing the statement “hit off the front foot.” I think the back foot lays the ground work for every groundstroke. If that back foot is not in position and not fully loaded, we are incapable of hitting quality consistent ground strokes. Indeed, sometimes we fire from out back foot to our front foot, and that is understandable, but more times than not, at least at the professional level, the loading and the firing continues the player in another direction other than forward.
 
^^makes sense as you often have to hit and already start moving sideways but it feels oh so nice when you can line up a shorter ball and finish on the front foot after loading and firing off the back foot.

Would love to read a brief analysis of Giorgi's strokes. Many of us marvel at her flat ground strokes.
 
teachestennis said:
That is why my 2016 book will be titled "The Real History of USA Tennis Instruction" How the eyes couldn't see what the mind didn't know." I used to see what you saw also and totally believed it. Let's see what you think of this quote from a #4 player in the world who has enjoyed coaching top pros and is an ambassador for the game. This player was taught linearly and was ready to quit the pro tour after his first pro year until Jose Higueras put a six foot net up and made him play entire sets above the net emphasizing topspin and hit across the ball to bring the ball down when as one of slowest players on tour he suddenly made the quarters of the French Open. No one denies that sometimes the weight transfer is from back to front, but I claim that is not optimal if you understand the modern tennis swing. 5263 only came to look at MTM and examine it after coaching his son to be one of the hardest hitters in tennis but wondering why his son's mid court ball was inches long all the time and why he didn't make the pro tour despite being a top D1 recruit. He discovered his son's stroke was too linear with a weight transfer from back to front driving through the target line with not enough ratio of moving across the ball.

Todd Martin (while coaching Mardy Fish with great results) quoted verbatim during a keynote speech at the US Open Tennis Teacher's Conference in front of many famous coaches: Now the game is filled with myths and misperceptions…… A few of the myths in the game are approach up the line, can’t spin the ball with an eastern grip, can’t hit the ball with a western grip, and there are several others. But there’s no more damning myth than to tell somebody to move their feet more….. What I’ve come to know is that all those steps that I took because I was so concerned about being in the right position took time away from me……This brings me to loading, which I would say is at least misinterpreted or misunderstood often. I can’t stand hearing the statement “hit off the front foot.” I think the back foot lays the ground work for every groundstroke. If that back foot is not in position and not fully loaded, we are incapable of hitting quality consistent ground strokes. Indeed, sometimes we fire from out back foot to our front foot, and that is understandable, but more times than not, at least at the professional level, the loading and the firing continues the player in another direction other than forward.
Click to expand...
Interesting... will now have to revisit focusing taking more efficient steps vs. alot of little steps. Taking lots of little steps for me has greatly improved my game (see below).

I can't help but think though, that it requires fighting to get into position by taking alot of little steps, that eventually you can get to the point where 1 step is all you need.
Let's take BJJ for example... when I learn/teach techniques,... it's by the numbers. Doing an arm bar from closed bar, when taught to a beginner might be 5-6 steps (trap the arm, post the foot, pivot, bring my leg over, clamp down the back of the neck, thrust the hips)... but when you see black belts do it,... they are clearly getting good results, but you don't see steps 1..6,... you just see maybe 1-2 (eg. your arm is trapped, their leg is clamping down and their thrusting their hips in what looks/feels like all at the same time),... meanwhile if you tried to teach a white belt in this "efficient" manner, you'd get this really sloppy looking technique that looks nothing like what the black belt did.
Do you think that tennis footwork is similar... in that "move their feet" is a temporary training modality, meant more for the lazy feet group, where they take 1 step, usually in the wrong spot, then wonder why they missed the ball. Forcing them to move, forces them to look for the ideal spot the plant and load. Then over time (years?), the goal (like the white belt to black belt example above) is to go from 1 bad step to lots of little steps then back down to 1-2 efficient steps.

Perhaps the tip to "move your feet more" to Todd was relevant when he was say 12-13,... but over time should have been weened away from, with "try to get to your spot as efficiently as possible" (eg. now armed with what that is the ideal spot, after a few years of taking lots of little steps to find that spot).

ps. i liked you're more complete post from 2009
pps. looking forward to reading your book, sounds very interesting.

The concept above is kinda like what our parents always teach us when we were kids, "always finish all your food on your plate." Fast forward to us as adults, you get all these overweight folks unknowingly following old patterns (eg. cleaning off their plate vs. eating til their full).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Coolio said:
Here is Magnus Norman training with Stanislas Wawrinka.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1014091505291111

Wawrinka is practising loading on the back foot for deep forehands and stepping in transferring his weight onto the front foot for shorter balls.
Click to expand...

This makes good sense, when you have time step in but when you don't it is good to be able hit off the back foot. That's why when some show warmup practice it is not a good example. They are rarely rushed or jammed so it is easy to step into every shot.
 
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